Equipment grounds to panel

[Scott Lynch]

........

[Gunnar Alquist]

Scott,

Oooh, good question. I had never thought of it. Let's see, the screw is designed for grounding, the grounding terminal block would normally be screwed to the panel, so I can't see why this would be a problem. Not sure if just twisting the wires together is OK and is the screw at the left designed/intended for grounding?

The other thought is that you would probably not be allowed to put more than one wire under any screw, so installation of a terminal block would be a good idea, given that installation of additional circuits is a possibility.

[Corey Friedman]

Is it allowable to connect equipement grounds directly to panel, not at a bus bar?

Also, is it okay to route conduit this manner out of a wall?

Hello Scott,

You can attach ground conductors directly to the panel but not in the fashion you show in your picture. A mechanical lug would need to be used and into a threaded screw hole.

Bringing flex through the wall as shown is generally not problem.

Sincerely,

Corey

[Michael Leavitt]

Corey:
Can you post a picture of the approved mechanical lug? I always get lost looking for connection information in the NEC... Can you throw me a bone? Where in the NEC would you find the condemning citation? Or is it in the small print on the panel label?

[Aaron Miller]

Corey:
Can you post a picture of the approved mechanical lug? I always get lost looking for connection information in the NEC... Can you throw me a bone? Where in the NEC would you find the condemning citation? Or is it in the small print on the panel label?

Attached - I think.

Aaron

[Tom Munds]

Guys help me out here. Doesn't the panel box have to be grounded with an 8awg wire( commonly bare)?

[Billy Stephens]

Hello Scott,

You can attach ground conductors directly to the panel but not in the fashion you show in your picture. A mechanical lug would
Corey

Tom,

The picture is to the outside of service panel thus lug required.

Inside the service panel ground to the Ground bus bar bare wire.

[John Arnold]

Tom: The panel box has to be bonded to neutral and/or ground depending on whether it is the service equipment or downstream. Bonding is achieved in a number of different ways, but not often with a wire, in my experience.
If it's the system grounding conductor you're thinking of, its size is determined by the service size.

[Tom Munds]

Tom: The panel box has to be bonded to neutral and/or ground depending on whether it is the service equipment or downstream. Bonding is achieved in a number of different ways, but not often with a wire, in my experience.
If it's the system grounding conductor you're thinking of, its size is determined by the service size.



I THOUGHT BONDING WAS ONLY FOR THE SUBPANEL. I THOUGHT GROUNDING WAS all that was needed for the main. The subpanel has to be bonded, separated and grounded.

[Tom Munds]

Tom,

The picture is to the outside of service panel thus lug required.

Inside the service panel ground to the Ground bus bar bare wire.

I knew that! I just misunderstood what you were talking about.
Thank you

[John Arnold]

Tom - Have you seen green screw that connects the neutral/ground bar in the service equipment (main) panel to the back of the box? That's a bonding screw. It provides a low resistance path back to the source (transformer) by way of the service neutral so that the box cannot become energized and shock you.

[Tom Munds]

Tom - Have you seen green screw that connects the neutral/ground bar in the service equipment (main) panel to the back of the box? That's a bonding screw. It provides a low resistance path back to the source (transformer) by way of the service neutral so that the box cannot become energized and shock you.

Yep I've seen it. Thank you for your input.You have probably saved my butt!But did anything I say make sense?

[John Arnold]

did anything I say make sense?
For a 100 amp service, there should be a minimum 8 awg copper grounding electrode conductor.

[John Steinke]

There are several issues brought up by the pictures .... but what you have in both has been argued to be perfectly fine.

The flex exiting the wall may be ugly, but there is no electrical code violation. If that is a fire wall, then the hole needs to be sealed.

As for grounding to the panel case ....

Let's consider if there were not enough spaces in the ground bar, and a second bar were added. There is an opinion shared by many of the 'anointed' that there is no code requirement to connect the two bars with any wire ... that the case mounting screw is plenty.

Attaching the new bar ... or a lug ... or even the wire directly (as shown) raises the question of "how?" Using one of those fancy green screws, and running it into a factory prepared hole, is clearly OK. Use of other screws ... even the self-tapping kind shown in the picture .... has been the subject of considerable debate in the electrical forums. The 2008 code is supposed to have some changes made to clarify the issue.

Personally, I would look for two things to be accomplished: a secure mounting, and significant metal-to-metal contact. If in doubt, I'd test for security with a wiggle of the wire, and an ohm meter across the connection.

[frank mangiarelli]

Gentlemen: the question is mute! we are Home Inspectors, not Sparky's. if it is questionable call it-PERIOD! Refer to the Experts! What you are saying in this post is great to know, and I don't dispute what you are saying, But do you want to put Your Reputation/Assets/Your future and your families future on the Line for an Ego trip? Let the Experts make the Call- It is Better to Error on the side of Good and be wrong than to allow ourselves to let our Ego take over and Loose Your -Assets, if You Know what -I mean

[John Arnold]

Frank - Welcome to the board! Please fill out your profile so we know where you are from.
I think you mean "moot".

[Brian Hoagland]

Gentlemen: the question is mute! we are Home Inspectors, not Sparky's. if it is questionable call it-PERIOD! Refer to the Experts! What you are saying in this post is great to know, and I don't dispute what you are saying, But do you want to put Your Reputation/Assets/Your future and your families future on the Line for an Ego trip? Let the Experts make the Call- It is Better to Error on the side of Good and be wrong than to allow ourselves to let our Ego take over and Loose Your -Assets, if You Know what -I mean I am not certain about this issue as seen in the photos as the photos did not include all the panel and I am hesitant to comment unless I can see everything. The problem with calling for experts (especially with grounding issues which are typically easy to identify as right or wrong) is it may cost you when a red flag is thrown up and "sparky" ends up out there telling the homeowner that the HI didn't know what he was talking about. It may cost you for future buisiness, you might get sparky's bill, you are gonna get it from the listing agent (doesn't count) and the selling agent (might count a little). This forum is designed as an exchange for knowledge which is what has happened on this issue. It isn't an ego trip to learn more. We should be able to apply common sense and knowledge learned to our business practices to become a better inspector everyday. If this isn't one of our goals, well then we are just being lazy.

[Billy Stephens]

Man, who cares if he didn't spell "moot" correctly, only someone who needs pyscho-therapy, I think. His point is right and you want to focus on a word that isn't spelled correctly. Why? To feed your over-inflated ego.


YEOW !

[Jerry Peck]

Man, who cares if he didn't spell "moot" correctly, only someone who needs pyscho-therapy, I think. His point is right and you want to focus on a word that isn't spelled correctly. Why? To feed your over-inflated ego.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

You must have an over inflated ego.

First, John WELCOMED him to the board, then he notified him of an incorrect word.

WORDS are all we have in communicating with each other and our clients, and WORDS are what we live and die by, so the WORDS should be the correct words, spelled correctly too.

Some say that is not needed here on this board, however, the posting on this board is taken as representative of one's writing in reports, and some of those reports (based on some of the posts) could really get some inspectors in deep do-do.

[Alton Darty]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

You must have an over inflated ego.

First, John WELCOMED him to the board, then he notified him of an incorrect word.

WORDS are all we have in communicating with each other and our clients, and WORDS are what we live and die by, so the WORDS should be the correct words, spelled correctly too.

Some say that is not needed here on this board, however, the posting on this board is taken as representative of one's writing in reports, and some of those reports (based on some of the posts) could really get some inspectors in deep do-do.

I have to go along with this, the incorrect spelling of even one word in our report can change the entire meaning of our findings. Even a mediocre lawyer can take a report with just a couple of spelling errors and turn it into something that could haunt you for the rest of your life, or the rest of your career at least. Spell check everything! Even what you post here, get into the habit of it.

[John Arnold]

Hey, I wasn't trying to make a big deal out of "moot". It's a common mistake. My mother was an English teacher. My father taught American literature after retiring from the Air Force. I can't help it, so sue me.
It was his first post, also, so I thought I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, instead of hammering him about the inflated ego stuff.

[Shannon Guinn]

[quote=frank mangiarelli;26402]Gentlemen: the question is mute! we are Home Inspectors, not Sparky's. if it is questionable call it-PERIOD! Refer to the Experts!

Actually frank, some of us are sparky's, and by the way I personally can't stand it when I am referred to as such. I am now an EI but will always remember my roots. I think it would actually be a good thing if some HI's were tradesmen (maybe there are) it would definitely be a good thing as far as making a recommendation for replace/repair situations. But your advice is sound by referring to the experts.:)

[Jerry Peck]

Actually frank, some of us are sparky's, and by the way I personally can't stand it when I am referred to as such.

Actually, being an old sparky, and one who has always like sparking things, making things spark, and watching sparks, I have never minded it. :)


I am now an EI

"EI"? Electrical Inspector?

Me too, among other things. (Mostly good "other things".) ;)

[Shannon Guinn]

It's always a pleasure when his lordship replies to one of my posts.:D

[Scott Patterson]

Johnny boy has a problem and a history with folks pointing out spellen in post.
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/building-envelope-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/1938-hardi-plank-cementitious-siding.html#post10942

[John Arnold]

Man, who cares if he didn't spell "moot" correctly, only someone who needs pyscho-therapy, I think. His point is right and you want to focus on a word that isn't spelled correctly. Why? To feed your over-inflated ego.
That's "psychotherapy". No hyphen needed.

[Rick Cantrell]

John A.
Some people on this board (not refering to you) do need
"pyscho"-therapy. :D

[Billy Stephens]

John A.
Some people on this board (not refering to you) do need
"pyscho"-therapy. :D

EASY NOW. ;)