FURNACE IN BASEMENT BEDROOM CLOSET

[CHARLIE VAN FLEET]

HEY GUYS

found this in basement bedroom closet--and not there was not a permit pulled to finish basement. this is not right RIGHT

THANKS CVF

[Jerry Peck]

this is not right RIGHT

Quite right (not unless the closet is sealed air tight, blah, blah, blah ...

[Lon Henderson]

If combustion air is somewhere in the "closet" out of the view in the photo, then it could be compliant.

[Billy Stephens]

If combustion air is somewhere in the "closet" out of the view in the photo, then it could be compliant.

Nope.
The Doorway would need to be Sealed Air Tight.

[Lon Henderson]

Nope.
The Doorway would need to be Sealed Air Tight.

Nope.

In fact if the basement has enough open area to satisfy the combustion air requirement for the furnace and water heater, then simply using a slatted door is satisfactory. (I had a local AHJ patiently explain all of this to me last year)

[Billy Stephens]

HEY GUYS

found this in basement bedroom closet--and not there was not a permit pulled to finish basement. this is not right RIGHT

THANKS CVF


Nope.

In fact if the basement has enough open area to satisfy the combustion air requirement for the furnace and water heater, then simply using a slatted door is satisfactory. (I had a local AHJ patiently explain all of this to me last year)

Nope Back at Ya.
*in fact

Did he also explain the Not Allowed in Sleeping Rooms no matter how much combustion air is present?

[Jerry Peck]

Nope.

In fact if the basement has enough open area to satisfy the combustion air requirement for the furnace and water heater, then simply using a slatted door is satisfactory. (I had a local AHJ patiently explain all of this to me last year)

Not sure what code he was using, but it was not the IRC: (bold and underlining are mine)
- G2406.2 (303.3) Prohibited locations. Appliances shall not be located in sleeping rooms, bathrooms, toilet rooms, storage closets or surgical rooms, or in a space that opens only into such rooms or spaces, except where the installation complies with one of the following:
- - 1. The appliance is a direct-vent appliance installed in accordance with the conditions of the listing and the manufacturer’s instructions.
- - 2. Vented room heaters, wall furnaces, vented decorative appliances, vented gas fireplaces, vented gas fireplace heaters and decorative appliances for installation in vented solid fuel-burning fireplaces are installed in rooms that meet the required volume criteria of Section G2407.5.
- - 3. A single wall-mounted unvented room heater is installed in a bathroom and such unvented room heater is equipped as specified in Section G2445.6 and has an input rating not greater than 6,000 Btu/h (1.76 kW). The bathroom shall meet the required volume criteria of Section G2407.5.
- - 4. A single wall-mounted unvented room heater is installed in a bedroom and such unvented room heater is equipped as specified in Section G2445.6 and has an input rating not greater than 10,000 Btu/h (2.93 kW). The bedroom shall meet the required volume criteria of Section G2407.5.
- - 5. The appliance is installed in a room or space that opens only into a bedroom or bathroom, and such room or space is used for no other purpose and is provided with a solid weather-stripped door equipped with an approved self-closing device. All combustion air shall be taken directly from the outdoors in accordance with Section G2407.6.

"All combustion air shall be taken directly from the outdoors"

That means "no" combustion air is allowed to be taken from the bedroom ... "no" as in "NONE" ... which means the door(s) to the bedroom needs to be sealed "air-tight".

[Lon Henderson]

Not sure what code he was using, but it was not the IRC: (bold and underlining are mine)
- G2406.2 (303.3) Prohibited locations. Appliances shall not be located in sleeping rooms,

"All combustion air shall be taken directly from the outdoors"

I don't know what code he was using either. He told me that because of the complaints about cold air pouring in through the outside combustion air sources and the resulting affect on the overall energy conservation of homes, "they" (dunno who the "they" was) figured out an acceptable amount of available combustion air that precludes the need for outside combustion air. "They" didn't do a lot of hard computing and used a formula that's been around for years.

The formula is to add up the total amount of BTUs from the furnace and water heater labels. Figure up the total amount of cubic feet in the room where the appliances are located and multiply by 20.

So, an open basement of 25' X 40' X 9' will have 9000 cu. ft of available air. Multiply this by 20 and the room will support a furnace and water heater with a combined BTU input of 180,000 without adding outside combustion air. He added that this volume of air can be obtained in a finished basement by using louvered doors or cutting in grills in existing doors.

The conversation with him was started when I wrote up a no combustion air situation with a new furnace. The seller told me that it was all permitted. So, I called up the office and was told that the installation was conforming and received the above information.

Update: I just called up the code enforcement officer and he told me that the above information is correct. They are using the 2009 codes and haven't adopted 2012 yet. He said that the 2009 has the allowances that I used above.

[Billy Stephens]

Basements are Permitted.

Sleeping Rooms are Not Permitted.

[Mike Kleisch]

I like to learn about other codes and have a couple questions, in general, not exclusive to this furnace.

First item:

except where the installation complies with one of the following:
- - 1. The appliance is a direct-vent appliance installed in accordance with the conditions of the listing and the manufacturer’s instructions.

If it complies with number 1, nothing else would matter, no need to look at items 2-5, or am I interpreting this wrong???

Second Item:

The appliance is installed in a room or space that opens only into a bedroom or bathroom, and such room or space is used for no other purpose and is provided with a solid weather-stripped door equipped with an approved self-closing device. All combustion air shall be taken directly from the outdoors in accordance with Section G2407.6.

Could this be interpreted that if there was a second door to the furnace room, form another location besides a bathroom or bedroom, nothing else has to done? It does say if "the appliance is installed in a room or space that only opens into a bedroom or bathroom" then the rest is required.

[Jerry Peck]

Lon,

Your inspector is forgetting, or didn't hear you mention, one little itsy bitsy but very critical word: bedroom

He is using the correct and easy math to figure out the answer to the wrong question.

What he is doing is similar to you asking him what the speed limit is and he looks at his chart and says "200 mph".

Instead of looking at a road map he was looking at a pilot's chart. - he gave the correct answer but it was to the wrong question.

[Jerry Peck]

Mike,

The answers to your questions are: yes and yes

The first answer is also the intent of the code - a direct vented appliance gets all of its combustion air from outdoors when installed correctly.

The second answer is not the intent of the code as that could still burn up the oxygen in the bedroom and people could still die.

I believe that the intent of the code was that if, in the photo example, the closet opened to a room which was sufficiently large enough for Lon's inspector to work the calculation and show that the intermediate room was suitable to supply the combustion air.

The problem with that, as I see it, is that someone comes along and makes it more "efficient" by sealing that intermediate room up ... not good for the occupants sleeping in that bedroom ... they might, as they say, "wake up dead".

[Lon Henderson]

Lon,

Your inspector is forgetting, or didn't hear you mention, one little itsy bitsy but very critical word: bedroom

He is using the correct and easy math to figure out the answer to the wrong question.

What he is doing is similar to you asking him what the speed limit is and he looks at his chart and says "200 mph".

Instead of looking at a road map he was looking at a pilot's chart. - he gave the correct answer but it was to the wrong question.
Yes, you are correct and I got side tracked on a tangent.

[John Williams]

It also appears that the water heater shares the vent with the furnace.

[Mark Reinmiller]

Lon,

Your inspector is forgetting, or didn't hear you mention, one little itsy bitsy but very critical word: bedroom

He is using the correct and easy math to figure out the answer to the wrong question.

What he is doing is similar to you asking him what the speed limit is and he looks at his chart and says "200 mph".

Instead of looking at a road map he was looking at a pilot's chart. - he gave the correct answer but it was to the wrong question.

I agree with you, but maybe the inspector was not told that this was going to be a bedroom.

[Billy Stephens]

It also appears that the water heater shares the vent with the furnace.

Your Point Being?

[Jerry Peck]

I agree with you, but maybe the inspector was not told that this was going to be a bedroom.

Exactly.

It is also possible that it was a basement only when the inspector approved it ... which could indicate that the bedroom was/is not permitted.

[Mark Reinmiller]

Exactly.

It is also possible that it was a basement only when the inspector approved it ... which could indicate that the bedroom was/is not permitted.

Agreed.