Determining the amperage mat a main disconnect fuse block

[Roland Miller]

Roland, obviously I do not agree with you since I have said from somewhere on page 1 that the panel has a capacity of 120 amps at 120 or 60 amps at 240. I simply corrected your statement about the capacity per leg. You keep saying the limit is 60 amps regardless of voltage. It seems from the post from Robert concerning generator capacities that the engineers for those companies too agree with me. There never was an issue with the correct size of the service.

I again will invite your to post the same question as asked by the OP on an electrical forum and post a link to it. Since you have refused multiple times I will assume you do not want to submit yourself to ridicule and further embarassment.

Speaking the truth and refusing to waver is not a matter of ego. Simply because you do not like the answer does not make it wrong.

And once again you accuse me of being the bully when the true issue is your inability to understand a simple issue. I never posted literacy figures trying to infer anyone's lack of knowledge.

I see you don't understand how a 240/120 volt generator is wired. I can certainly understand why you are confused about the connection of a single phase transformer. Again apples and oranges--will it never end? Or do you like fruit salad?

I still don't understand why you keep agreeing with me in between your insults?

The 60 amps you speak of is not +60 and +60 . You get your answer only with a math error. If one truly understands the math and the concept it develops what is known as adaptive reasoning. That is where you take what you know is correct problem solving and apply it to more complex problems and still come up with the correct answer.

Just a funny note though: I just watched a video of a teacher explaining to a PTA group why 3 X 4 = 11 is a correct answer under the new common core math model the President is driving. No wonder our economy and everything else is slipping into the dark pit...It was funny. I see you have already taken that course.

[Jim Port]

I still don't understand why you keep agreeing with me in between your insults?

You say I am wrong but you say I keep agreeing with you? :confused:


Just a funny note though: I just watched a video of a teacher explaining to a PTA group why 3 X 4 = 11 is a correct answer under the new common core math model the President is driving. No wonder our economy and everything else is slipping into the dark pit...It was funny. I see you have already taken that course.

Ironic that you say this since you clearly cannot get the correct answer from this:


The 60 amps you speak of is not +60 and +60 . You get your answer only with a math error. If one truly understands the math and the concept it develops what is known as adaptive reasoning. That is where you take what you know is correct problem solving and apply it to more complex problems and still come up with the correct answer.

You have stated numerous times that 60 + 60 = 60. I doubt that even a first grader would agree.

Perhaps you can explain the generator ratings posted by Robert above and tell us why the voltage ratings change the ampacities? Surely not all the engineers are wrong.

[Jim Port]

. You have a growing following though---3 or 4 now..

Thanks for noticing. Meanwhile your team still only has two players, and I am not so sure Vern is still on your team.

Funny how even those late to the game agree with me isn't it? You haven't managed to confuse them either.

[Vern Heiler]

Thanks for noticing. Meanwhile your team still only has two players, and I am not so sure Vern is still on your team.

Funny how even those late to the game agree with me isn't it? You haven't managed to confuse them either.
You would be surprised at the PM's in my message box!


I think that we should send a link to these generator manufacturers so that they can all fire their engineers for getting the generator output wrong:

Or better still, we could tell G.E. and all the rest of the panel manufactures that they have been under selling there product as they only have a code for one current ratting per panel.

I have edited my analogy from post 251 to try and make it as clear as I can.

The 3-wire circuit, as in all circuits, is a continuous loop. A good analogy of the loop would be that of the lazy river that is found in many amusement parks. All of the water leaves the pump and sends inner tubers down the river, some of the tubers may take a short-cut back to the pump station, because there is a traffic jamb on the return leg (less load or more resistance), but they are using just some of the same current that is taking the rest of the tubers the long way around. When the traffic (load) is the same on both legs of the river, no tubes take the short-cut (neutral) but return to the pump via the main return leg. The same current that took the tubers down one leg will take them up the other. The total current is still in a loop so whether we split it at the short-cut or not is irrelevant. The total current leaving the pump must equal the current returning to the pump. We can measure the current on the down leg (A) and again on the up leg (B). As a matter of fact we could measure current at several more locations but it is all the same, or portion of the same, current that left the pump. The number of measurements taken are not additive.

As I said before in 251, we can use the current in each of the legs to calculate power using 120 volts and come up with the correct answer. But if you do not understand the "lazy river" then you do not understand the circuit.

I hope we can all agree and put this one to bed.

[Roland Miller]

You say I am wrong but you say I keep agreeing with you? :confused:



Ironic that you say this since you clearly cannot get the correct answer from this:



You have stated numerous times that 60 + 60 = 60. I doubt that even a first grader would agree.

Perhaps you can explain the generator ratings posted by Robert above and tell us why the voltage ratings change the ampacities? Surely not all the engineers are wrong.
I have posted this information before. Did you forget or just not read it? I am sorry you don't understand the generator wiring and make ignorant statements such as you did. Every major published textbook on AC/DC theory, electrical engineer, physicist and math professional as well as 100's of years of science are on my side and would agree with the math as I have stated it. I don't need any more on my team...:p

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Thanks for noticing. Meanwhile your team still only has two players, and I am not so sure Vern is still on your team.Funny how even those late to the game agree with me isn't it? You haven't managed to confuse them either.

You cannot add the rms AC Amperage limitation capacity of the two fused conductors and claim that the amperage capacity has doubled!

Each of these two "hot" conductors are SINGULARLY FUSED each in-line or series at the origination of the 3-wire (with or without ground) occupancy "mains" power feeder.

The rate (speed, accelaration, change of direction) of electron transfer as RMS'd does not increase. The ONLY thing that can increase (or decrease) is the RMS Voltage at max (amperage) capacity. The legs are not going to magically increase (for very long before the fuse opens - and for that matter the companion fuse) the number of electrons passed in a single second (60 cycles) or a tenth of a second (six cycles) to RMS 120 amps as long as functioning fuses and correctly rated (temp, voltage, type, etc.) are in place singularly in series with nothing but simple resistance loads and no induct. generator or other load-side.

There is NO WAY a simple properly wired/configured 120/240 Volts RMS AC split (center-tapped) single phase 3-wire FEEDER with fused on both hots with 60 amp fuses can be in any way confused to have a 120 Amp RMS capacity. (without some transformtation, inversion, generation, induction, introduction of of, etc. load side of same!)

120/240 = 1/2 = 180/360. 120 Vrms AC - ( - 120 Vrms AC) = 120 Vrms AC + 120 Vrms AC = 2(120 Vrms AC)V(A) = VA = V x A(V rms AC) x (A rms AC) = VA{120/240 V rms AC (that's a fraction - which is the product of 240V rms AC center tapped) V rms AC} x (60 A rms AC) = the Volt-Amps rms AC available (not really, there are a host of more complicated mathmetical functions to consider).

For both legs (2): (at the voltage side of the compound equasion) multiplies same (front end) by 2 (in the form of 2/1 actually). That function occurs to the modification of the Voltage factor BEFORE multiplying the voltage factor by the Amperage factor to determine approximate VA rms.

You can remember the "order" of the equasion by remembering (1) it is the voltage factor which has changed in your application and (2) the Intensity (amperage) for each conductor remains LIMITED by the FUSE present (in-line, in-series) in each conductor AHEAD of the Load. Finally, there is a reason we refer to the product as Volt-Amps, not Amp-Volts.

Remember, each conductor is FUSED at 60 amps, Line-side of the FEEDER. There is no CB.

Little of this five-page discussion has been on-topic of the OP.

The capacity is current-limited to 60 amps rms regardless of the voltage (as long as the fuse is capable of functioning properly in the presence of what ever voltage the conductors/feeder circuit is exposed to). Generally that would be approx 50 - 600 Vrms AC for the type of fuse commonly employed for a strictly residential occupancy, strictly single-phase; however we do not know the age, vintage, nor the SERVICE arrangement for the OP's TWO-HUNDRED-UNIT Apartment Building and Unknown building requirements as well as unknown other (mixed) occupancies.

{2 ( 120/240 V ) } x (60 A) = VA That's the same whether there are all 120V loads, all 120/240 loads, all 240V loads, or a mix of loads; its STILL JUST 60 A.

Finally when you "minus a minus" the "minuses" cancel out, the result is a function of positive values.

AC both voltage and Intensity are alternating. acceleration and deceleration in AC sinusodal.

Intentionally avoided peak and peak-to-peak as this would only further distract and confuse the majority (as well as a host of other issues), K.I.S.S. and kept it at elementary (4th-grade) mathmatics and 5th-grade Physics.

The limited capacity of the OP's question is sixty (60) amps based ONLY on the OP's information (limited) regrding the presence of the fuses. Whether or not the fuses are correctly determined, the unknown ambient conditions of the "room" hosting the fuses, the resistance, if the conductors run nything other than perfectly straight, the temperture rating and condition of the conductors (and insulation), ratings and conditions of contacts, and a host of other considertions, we cannot say.P.S. the likelyhood of the OP's 200-apartment-building's singular apartment's feeder supply being 120/240 VAC single-phase is SLIM.

[Roland Miller]

Nice Mr. Watson!! I was about to float Jim's rubber duckies down Vern's lazy river.

[Jim Port]

I see Watson can't add 7200 + 7200 and come up with 14400 either.

[Roland Miller]

I see Watson can't add 7200 + 7200 and come up with 14400 either.


I am calling you for a "FOUL". Apples and oranges again. :der:

[Jim Port]

I will leave you to wallow in your confusion. Professionals that work in the trade every day along with engineers for the generator companies have explained ad infinitum why you are wrong. Please stay away from the edges of the earth. I wouldn't want you to fall off.

[Roland Miller]

I will leave you to wallow in your confusion. Professionals that work in the trade every day along with engineers for the generator companies have explained ad infinitum why you are wrong. Please stay away from the edges of the earth. I wouldn't want you to fall off.
Why don't you speak for all of them and explain to everyone why???

[Jim Port]

You haven't learned anything from the last 280+ posts. Are you saying that you are going to be less obtuse and read what is actually posted and asked the questions that have been asked if this continues? I seriously doubt it. You are still making the same math errors and showing you still cannot grasp a concept that has been explained numerous ways by numerous people in different manners. I should have listened to Robert when he said it did not matter how many times it was explained that some people still would not understand.

- - - Updated - - -

You haven't learned anything from the last 280+ posts. Are you saying that you are going to be less obtuse and read what is actually posted and asked the questions that have been asked if this continues? I seriously doubt it. You are still making the same math errors and showing you still cannot grasp a concept that has been explained numerous ways by numerous people in different manners. I should have listened to Robert when he said it did not matter how many times it was explained that some people still would not understand.

[Billy Stephens]

I will leave you to wallow in your confusion


You haven't learned anything from the last 280+ posts.

......

[Roland Miller]

You haven't learned anything from the last 280+ posts. Are you saying that you are going to be less obtuse and read what is actually posted and asked the questions that have been asked if this continues? I seriously doubt it. You are still making the same math errors and showing you still cannot grasp a concept that has been explained numerous ways by numerous people in different manners. I should have listened to Robert when he said it did not matter how many times it was explained that some people still would not understand.

- - - Updated - - -

You haven't learned anything from the last 280+ posts. Are you saying that you are going to be less obtuse and read what is actually posted and asked the questions that have been asked if this continues? I seriously doubt it. You are still making the same math errors and showing you still cannot grasp a concept that has been explained numerous ways by numerous people in different manners. I should have listened to Robert when he said it did not matter how many times it was explained that some people still would not understand.

I see you have added vocabulary to your book of insults and bullying. No--I only promise to give you enough room to continue to make a fool of yourself....Now why don't you take a shot at explaining generator connections and where you think my statement was not correct. MORE ROPE please --this guy hasn't hit bottom yet..

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

I see Watson can't add 7200 + 7200 and come up with 14400 either.

LOL! You do NOT ADD the apparent power of each leg (especially since it is OBVIOUS the FEEDER for the apartment (1 of 200) is most likely NOT 120/240.

You determine the voltage (and ALL the calculations related thereto (like number of conductors) THEN multiply by the Amperage! The Amperage capacity (INTENSITY) does NOT change unless YOU CHANGE THE FUSE or LIMIT further load side.

Anyway, the SUBJECT is determining the Amperage Capactiy of the Feeder! Not the Apparent POWER.



It is quite obvious you are lost in SIMPLE ALGEBRA and have completely forgotten what the definition of an Ampere IS!

[Jim Port]

Deleted.