Alarm System vs. Smoke alarms

[Rick Bunzel]

Inspected a 1998 home over the weekend and there were no independent smoke alarms at all in the home. The alarms system looked like it was a monitored system. Does anyone know when an alarm system can substitute for standalone smoke alarms?

//Rick

[Raymond Wand]

Hi Rick

I think thats standard fair with a monitored system hardwired and monitored. Even if the system is not monitored (off line) but the system is powered then the smoke alarms would still be functional.
Of course there is nothing to stop homeowner from installing battery units for piece of mind if they should shut the entire system down.

[Rick Cantrell]

Raymond is correct.
BTW
You cannot properly test the smoke detectors on a fire system, so I would recommend to have the fire alarm system tested by an alarm company.

[John Dirks Jr]

I remember a few years back I pricked the little button hole on one of the "monitored" smoke alarms. 10 mins later the FD was at the front door. I wont do that again. No matter what system is there, I always recommend stand alone units. I don't touch monitored equipment anymore..

[Eric Barker]

I remember a few years back I pricked the little button hole on one of the "monitored" smoke alarms. 10 mins later the FD was at the front door.

I won't test any detectors. Batteries could go dead by occupancy or seller could take detectors when they move out. I comment as to whether they are present or not and instruct the client to confirm their presence and function when they take possession.

[Jim Luttrall]

R314.7 Fire alarm systems. Fire alarm systems shall be permitted to be used in lieu of smoke alarms
and shall comply with Sections R314.7.1 through R315.7.4.

R314.7.1 General. Fire alarm systems shall comply with the provisions of this code and the
household fire warning equipment provisions of NFPA 72. Smoke detectors shall be listed in
accordance with UL 268.

R314.7.2 Location. Smoke detectors shall be installed in the locations specified in Section
R314.3.

R314.7.3 Permanent fixture. Where a household Fire alarm system is installed, it shall become
a permanent fixture of the occupancy, owned by the homeowner and shall be monitored by an
approved supervising station.


Not sure if this every became part of the code but it is not in 2003 IRC. Simply refers to "listed equipment ... provisions of NFPA 72.

[Jerry Peck]

Not sure if this every became part of the code but it is not in 2003 IRC. Simply refers to "listed equipment ... provisions of NFPA 72.

(bold is mine)
This is the critical part in that "Fire alarm systems shall be permitted to be used in lieu of smoke alarms "

A "fire alarm system" is a different animal than the normal smoke alarms (smoke detectors as most people refer to them).

As I recall, Rick C. is into "fire alarm systems" and will hopefully respond with additional information.

[Rick Cantrell]

(bold is mine)
This is the critical part in that "Fire alarm systems shall be permitted to be used in lieu of smoke alarms "

A "fire alarm system" is a different animal than the normal smoke alarms (smoke detectors as most people refer to them).

As I recall, Rick C. is into "fire alarm systems" and will hopefully respond with additional information.
I read Jim's post. I can only add questions.
I've been doing this since 1985/86?, and I've never heard of an "approved supervising station" ( but I have an idea what they mean).
Also, never heard about the requirement to be monitored (but I've not heard about many things).

[Jerry Peck]

I read Jim's post. I can only add questions.
I've been doing this since 1985/86?, and I've never heard of an "approved supervising station" ( but I have an idea what they mean).
Also, never heard about the requirement to be monitored (but I've not heard about many things).


Rick,

I suspect that "approved supervising station"means either a fire alarm control panel which can dial the fire department directly, with the additional option that a fire alarm monitoring company is also monitoring the fire alarm control panel as well as (usually) monitoring the security alarm system, typically found in apartment/condo buildings as well as other buildings.

For a dwelling unit, the "supervising station" may be the monitoring control panel which can also directly call the fire department and is monitored by the alarm company (typically a combination security/fire alarm system monitored by a service center). I realize that is like trying to explain why the Titanic sank by simply saying that it hit an iceberg ... and we know it was not that simple, nor is this that simple ... :(

Like these:
- http://www.fmac-co.org/documents/training/2013/Evolution_of_SSAS_2013-01.pdf
- http://www.ul.com/global/documents/offerings/industries/lifesafetyandsecurity/alarmsystems/NewASC/NewFire/Fire_LocalRemote_Tech_Description.pdf
- https://www.inkling.com/read/nfpa-72-national-fire-alarm-signaling-handbook-2013/chapter-26/26-5-remote-supervising-station
- Fire Alarm Rejection List (http://sfm.dps.louisiana.gov/doc_facsm.html)

[Rick Cantrell]

Rick,

I suspect that "approved supervising station"means either a fire alarm control panel which can dial the fire department directly, with the additional option that a fire alarm monitoring company is also monitoring the fire alarm control panel as well as (usually) monitoring the security alarm system, typically found in apartment/condo buildings as well as other buildings.

For a dwelling unit, the "supervising station" may be the monitoring control panel which can also directly call the fire department and is monitored by the alarm company (typically a combination security/fire alarm system monitored by a service center). I realize that is like trying to explain why the Titanic sank by simply saying that it hit an iceberg ... and we know it was not that simple, nor is this that simple ... :(

Like these:
- http://www.fmac-co.org/documents/training/2013/Evolution_of_SSAS_2013-01.pdf
- http://www.ul.com/global/documents/offerings/industries/lifesafetyandsecurity/alarmsystems/NewASC/NewFire/Fire_LocalRemote_Tech_Description.pdf
- https://www.inkling.com/read/nfpa-72-national-fire-alarm-signaling-handbook-2013/chapter-26/26-5-remote-supervising-station
- Fire Alarm Rejection List (http://sfm.dps.louisiana.gov/doc_facsm.html)

Thanks Jerry
I was really talking about the terminology used. The industry standard term is "Central Monitoring Station". "Approved" by who, and to what standards, it does not say. UL Approved is one standard, but even then, there are many, many, UL standards. What I was saying is, the way it is written is vague.

[Jerry Peck]

I was really talking about the terminology used. The industry standard term is "Central Monitoring Station".

I've always seen it as (from the building codes): (underlining is mine)
- [F] 903.4.1 Monitoring. - - Alarm, supervisory and trouble signals shall be distinctly different and shall be automatically transmitted to an approved supervising station or, when approved by the fire code official, shall sound an audible signal at a constantly attended location.


"Approved" by who, and to what standards, it does not say. UL Approved is one standard, but even then, there are many, many, UL standards. What I was saying is, the way it is written is vague.

Approved by the Building Official or Fire Marshall in most cases.
- Building code definition:
- - APPROVED. Acceptable to the building official or authority having jurisdiction. [A]
- However, in 903.4.1 it says "approved by the fire code official,"m which would be the Fire Marshall in most towns/cities/counties/states.

[Rich Goeken]

I've always seen it as (from the building codes): (underlining is mine)
- [F] 903.4.1 Monitoring. - - Alarm, supervisory and trouble signals shall be distinctly different and shall be automatically transmitted to an approved supervising station or, when approved by the fire code official, shall sound an audible signal at a constantly attended location.


I think the key word here is "transmitted." In a supervised fire alarm system, there may be various types of sensors. Everything from a fusible link, something that detects a rapid rate of temperature change, to something electronic that detects smoke, flames, etc. Each of these has a different method of "supervising" or detecting if that circuit (zone) is active or in trouble. The control panel is part of the system. You may have a small panel or a very large one with many zones and the size of a door(s). Depending upon the situation, the panel may be at an on-site location that is 24-7, or an annunciator panel may be at that location remoted from the main system. I would think that fits "...constantly attended location.."

I agree, the wording is kinda vague, but the paragraph basically says that you can send it here (remote) or monitor it there (local) (or both). As it is a fire alarm, they usually send their signals to a UL Approved (for that purpose) central monitoring station.