PVC as water distribution pipe

[Terry Beck]

If I read the IRC-2006 correctly (and I believe prior editions as well), PVC is allowed as material for "water service pipe" (ASTM 1785) by P2904.4.2 but NOT in "Water Distribution pipe". (I'm in a discussion with a "certified plumber" who claims that where he is from, Florida, PVC is 'always' used for cold water distribution as long as CPVC is used for hot water. Personnally I think he is full of hot air). I understand the prohibition of use as supply pipe for hot water (sched 40 PVC is only rated for 140 psi at 73 degree), but can anyone explain why it is allowed for use as water service, but not allowed for use as distribution pipe for cold water?

In this case, the home is on a well where water pressure would only run about 30-55 psi at best.

2nd question; not being a plumber, what color of cement is used for CPVC? His house had a vivid blue color staining around the joints (both PVC and CPVC), which I don't recall seeing before on CPVC. Does anyone know of any problems if the wrong cement is used?

[Rick Cantrell]

Terry
I don't know about your first question, but as to the second question, this is how it was explained to me.
The blue you saw was most likely Purple primer. By using purple primer instead of clear primer, the plumbing inspectors can tell at a glance if the joint was or was not primed. Not sure but I think it's now required to use purple primer.

[Jerry Peck]

If I read the IRC-2006 correctly (and I believe prior editions as well), PVC is allowed as material for "water service pipe" (ASTM 1785) by P2904.4.2 but NOT in "Water Distribution pipe". (I'm in a discussion with a "certified plumber" who claims that where he is from, Florida, PVC is 'always' used for cold water distribution as long as CPVC is used for hot water. Personnally I think he is full of hot air).

Nope, not full of "hot air", full of Sh*T is more like it. :D


I understand the prohibition of use as supply pipe for hot water (sched 40 PVC is only rated for 140 psi at 73 degree), but can anyone explain why it is allowed for use as water service, but not allowed for use as distribution pipe for cold water?

Because it is not rated high enough for pressure and temperature and is formulated differently (being more susceptible to breaking and cracking - I think). So it is allowed "outside" the structure for pressure uses, i.e., water service pipe and sprinkler pipe, and "inside" the structure for atmospheric pressure applications, i.e., DWV uses.


In this case, the home is on a well where water pressure would only run about 30-55 psi at best.

IRC requires 40 psi minimum.


2nd question; not being a plumber, what color of cement is used for CPVC? His house had a vivid blue color staining around the joints (both PVC and CPVC), which I don't recall seeing before on CPVC. Does anyone know of any problems if the wrong cement is used?

That blue is the primer. It is blue so the inspectors will know: 1) primer was used, 2) the correct primer was used. I'm not sure that it is acceptable for CPVC, I'll have to go look at some in my garage and see what it says.

[Jerry Peck]

I'm not sure that it is acceptable for CPVC, I'll have to go look at some in my garage and see what it says.

Yep. It is.

It says "PVC CPVC" on it.

[Terry Beck]

Thanks. that's pretty much what I thought. Not surprised to get a strong response from Jerry when I mentioned the builder claims it is OK in Florida.

Does the term "water service" refer also to a main domestic water supply pipe to house? If it does, then I would still have a hard time understanding why PVC is good enough for main water service (supply) to the house, but not domestic cold water distribution within the house.

[Jerry Peck]

Does the term "water service" refer also to a main domestic water supply pipe to house?

Yes. That is the same line.


If it does, then I would still have a hard time understanding why PVC is good enough for main water service (supply) to the house, but not domestic cold water distribution within the house.

Because the water service is "outside" the house, what I tried explaining in my previous post.

Here is an example of why.

In the house we had down in South Florida, we noticed our water bills going up. I looked all over for signs of leakage and could not find any.

I looked at the flow indicator on the water meter and it did not indicate any flow (leakage) when we were not using any water. I checked this flow indicator several times of a period of of a few months as the water usage kept rising.

I finally saw the flow indicator move ... then stop ... and did not move again. I saw this happen a few times, but the flow indicator would not keep moving, meaning an intermittent leak somewhere, but not enough flow for long enough for me to find it -Great! I thought, knowing that water was going 'somewhere', just had no idea of 'where'.

About that time we bought a pop-up camper (which means it was around 1998-99) and as I was making a place for it next to the house, I noticed some wetness on the ground at the bottom of the fence between our house and out neighbors house, and thought, oh, their sprinkler system must be leaking. A few weeks later when I was putting the camper back in there I noticed the wet spot again (it had dried out) and this time it was wetter and the sprinklers had not been on - so my mind went Leak! In the water service line!

I dug down to it and found that the PVC water service line had cracked, repaired it, and all was well after that.

EXCEPT ... that in the mean time 10,000-15,000 gallons of water had leaked into that area.

I would not have wanted a 10,000-15,000 gallon leak "in" the house.

PVC is not the same pipe as CPVC, it (CPVC) is more resistant to pressure, more resistant to heat, and more resistant to breaking and cracking. Thus, CPVC is allowed "in" the house and PVC is only allowed "outside" the house.

How much better is CPVC? They use CPVC for fire sprinkler systems throughout dwelling units. Those CPVC systems are tested to 200 psi for 2 hours minimum (usually left at 200 psi for a day or two). No way PVC would survive that.

[Peter Hetherman]

He is NOT full of S____. PVC IS USED as supply and distribution. It is preferred because of electrolisis from the ground. Copper gets pin holes. PVC is allowed by Florida Plumbing code and has been for years.

[Billy Stephens]

Good Morning Peter,

General Contractor, Director Of Quality Control. :)

Welcome and please be ready to support your statement. :D

[Richard Rushing]

He is NOT full of S____. PVC IS USED as supply and distribution. It is preferred because of electrolisis from the ground. Copper gets pin holes. PVC is allowed by Florida Plumbing code and has been for years.


Peter, can you post the code back-up where Fla. allows PVC inside as supply and distribution lines?

rr

[Ken Meyer]

In Oregon, the supply lines inside the house must be CPVC, I'm not sure exactly why, I'll try to find out. The outside piping can be regular PVC, schedule 40. They type of cement used for CPVC is yellowish, it is a one-step cement, no primer is used.

[Jerry Peck]

He is NOT full of S____. PVC IS USED as supply and distribution. It is preferred because of electrolisis from the ground. Copper gets pin holes. PVC is allowed by Florida Plumbing code and has been for years.

Peter,

You need to go back and READ THE CODE! Go back as far as you can - "PVC" *IS NOT ALLOWED* for use as water distribution pipe - only as water service pipe.

What you will find, though, is that if *YOU* put a "C" in front of "PVC" (making "CPVC"), that will be correct, however, as you stated -calling it "PVC" ... you are totally INCORRECT.

[Richard Rushing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hetherman http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/images/ca_evo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/plumbing-system-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/4048-pvc-water-distribution-pipe.html#post23221)
He is NOT full of S____! JERRY IS!!!:D . PVC IS USED as supply and distribution. It is preferred because of electrolisis from the ground. Copper gets pin holes. PVC is allowed by Florida Plumbing code and has been for years.

(in response to: JP-- "Nope, not full of "hot air", full of Sh*T is more like it.":D



__________________________________________________ _


Sorry, JP-- I couldn't help myself.... that is the way I took Peter's post to read (red editing is mine;) ).

I find it hard to believe that the state of 100-million-hanging-chads would allow PVC as distribution lines...

rr

[Jerry Peck]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hetherman http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/images/ca_evo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/plumbing-system-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/4048-pvc-water-distribution-pipe.html#post23221)
He is NOT full of S____! JERRY IS!!!:D . PVC IS USED as supply and distribution. It is preferred because of electrolisis from the ground. Copper gets pin holes. PVC is allowed by Florida Plumbing code and has been for years.

(in response to: JP-- "Nope, not full of "hot air", full of Sh*T is more like it.":D



__________________________________________________ _


Sorry, JP-- I couldn't help myself.... that is the way I took Peter's post to read (red editing is mine;) ).

I find it hard to believe that the state of 100-million-hanging-chads would allow PVC as distribution lines...

rr

Yeah, that's the way I read it too, but, then again, 'I am sure' that is not the way Peter 'meant it'. ;)

Regardless, Peter is 100% incorrect and I find it 'irkable' for (is that a word?, i.e., 'it irks me' when ...) someone to come on and loudly proclaim something *so wrong* - it just needed immediate correction (as soon as I saw it).

I *would hope* that Peter's report are not full of stuff like that, that that post was an anomaly and that Peter really does know what he is doing ... I *would hope* ... I *am sure* ... right, Peter?

[Billy Stephens]

PVC is allowed by Florida Plumbing code and has been for years.



General Contractor, Director Of Quality Control. :)
Welcome and please be ready to support your statement. :D




[quote=Jerry Peck;23239]Peter really does know what he is doing ... I *would hope* ... I *am sure* ... right, Peter?

Disney Land is in Orlando Florida.It has been built for years.They have water distribution lines.Perhaps Peter is referring to that application. :rolleyes:

[Joshua Hardesty]

2nd question; not being a plumber, what color of cement is used for CPVC? His house had a vivid blue color staining around the joints (both PVC and CPVC), which I don't recall seeing before on CPVC. Does anyone know of any problems if the wrong cement is used?



I am a plumber, and I have a different theory to this one.

"Vivid blue color" does NOT sound like purple primer to me. The primer is very thin and as such tends to be a more faded, dull color, either purple or bluish. What IS a "vivid blue," however, is Rain or Shine PVC cement. It's intended for PVC only, and can set even in damp or moist conditions (hence the name). You'll see a lot of jacuzzi or whirlpool tubs with it around the connections -- it's a very pretty, deep color of blue. Also, CPVC cement is typically yellow for the regular stuff, or orange for the all-weather variation which has a colder temperature range. (Similar to the light-green lable and dark-breen label PVC cement cans.) As such, even when the primer is applied to CPVC beneath the CPVC cement, most of what you see around the pipes will be the yellow or orange color, not a vivid blue.

So if it is the Rain or Shine PVC cement, then it's not formulated for CPVC. Exactly what difference this makes I can't be sure. I've seen CPVC cement ran on PVC drain lines without a problem, and even ABS on PVC DWV lines without issue. BUT -- since this is CPVC and meant as water distribution, I'd hate to have a water hammer blow apart a connection because the solvent weld didn't take.

[Mike Cudahy]

In the model codes, tubing used for the hot and cold water distribution lines must both be rated for such use (eg. rollmarked 180F / 100 psi).

This was done, if you believe the rumors, in case the plumber somehow crossed the hot and cold lines, both tubing would be rated for hot water.

PVC is therefore, used as "service line" or "main to building supply" and DWV piping. PVC would make just dandy cold water pipes inside the house but codes generally don't allow for this practice - plus they don't make a CTS "copper tube sized" version. PVC really isn't very much different otherwise. Service lines basically see a great deal of stress, and slow leaks are a serious issue nationwide, regardless of material.

CPVC is a modified PVC resin - made to resist higher temperatures. PVC pressure use temperature max is 140F, CPVC 180F.

CPVC used in sprinkler systems (and all sprinkler components) are tested to two times pressures used in ordinary plumbing systems. Last I heard a sample tested to distruction burst over 2000 psi.

All hot water tubing BTW is tested to resist 210F/150 psi conditions - as in a run away T&P valve for at least 48 hours. Some do so for a month.

As to color, some primers are more violet then "purple", but the cements manufactured for CPVC should be orange or yellow. Yellow cements are typically low VOC one step cements and may be used as such where permitted.

Michael Cudahy
Codes and Training
Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association

[Rick Cantrell]

Joshua and Mike
Thank you for the information. Do you know of a site that has more info on primers and cements?

[Richard Rushing]

Hey Mike C.--

Welcome to the forum. I must of missed your other posts, but I look forward to reading more of these educational type blurbs. Feel free to jump in and help whenever possible. We can always use more practical code help.

rr

[Joshua Hardesty]

Joshua and Mike
Thank you for the information. Do you know of a site that has more info on primers and cements?

No, no website, just a few years experience. :)

Head over to Lowes or Home Depot though, they'll have the full variety of glues and their colors, as well of course as the printed labels on them saying what they're intended for.

All purple primer looks purple in the can, but can dry from purple to a more blue color.

[Jim Luttrall]

Be careful what you look at though, I was in Lowe's today and they had big display above the drain pipes showing a "p" trap, and "s" trap and one of Jerry's favorites the "adjustable drain pipe" pretty as a picture with absolutely no explanation that there was any problem with using any of the parts exactly the way they had them on display. I would have taken a picture, but the camera was in the truck.

[Joshua Hardesty]

Yeah, I often get frustrated walking into stores like that where they have parts that aren't code-approved mixed in with the ones that are. S-traps, "flexi" p-traps, etc. Yeah, I know that the S-traps they sell are needed for people with older homes to make repairs, but that just encourages do-it-yourselfers to do it wrong.

[Scott Laird]

I'm still in training in this business and learning so much. When my coursework informed me that PVC should never be used as distribution lines, I freaked out and sought this forum. 20 years ago, my plumber brother-in-law and I re-plumbed my my whole house with PVC for cold line and CPVC for hot. Like the Florida man, this appears to be a common practice around here. Haven't had any issues. But now I'm concerned. Should I crawl under the house and replace all the PVC lines? What's your advice?

[Jerry Peck]

Should I crawl under the house and replace all the PVC lines? What's your advice?

Yes.

PVC is not approved for use inside for a few reasons, one of which is breakage ... and you may not see the leakage from a break for sometime, by which a lot of damage may have occurred.

[Dom D'Agostino]

Yes.

PVC is not approved for use inside for a few reasons, one of which is breakage ... and you may not see the leakage from a break for sometime, by which a lot of damage may have occurred.

Speaking of breakage, most CPVC pipe, after 20 years, will shatter like a hard boiled egg when you try to cut it with a PVC cutter.

Dom.

[Jerry Peck]

Speaking of breakage, most CPVC pipe, after 20 years, will shatter like a hard boiled egg when you try to cut it with a PVC cutter.

Which brings up another aspect and/or additional questions:
- If the chemical makeup of the material has changed that much ... or should I say it as THAT MUCH ...
- - a) has the glue chemical makeup also changed, and ,if so, what are the joints like after 20 years
- - b) how does that effect the ability of new glue to chemically weld the old (changed) material to new material and fittings during repairs and/or extensions of an existing system.

[Jeff Zehnder]

Jerry, your analogy is off...it shatters more like a florescent bulb (the old long type).

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, your analogy is off...it shatters more like a florescent bulb (the old long type).

Dom'so analogy - I commented on the glue aspect.

When it breaks/shatters, do the joints hold?

[Jeff Zehnder]

They might but it most likely wont matter!

[Jerry Peck]

Dom'so analogy - I commented on the glue aspect.

When it breaks/shatters, do the joints hold?


They might but it most likely wont matter!

It might matter in that if the glue holds, i.e., the material is still welded together, the thicker thinkness and strength at the joints may help keep the pipe from breaking on its own, and if it breaks when the water is shut off and one is working on it ... well ... it just requires a bit more work ... :( ... and using a saw to cut the piping instead of one of those slicer cutters.

[Elizabeth Chambers]

The blue color could also be a PVC cement called "Hot Blue Glue" over the top of the primer which should be purple not blue.