Double Tapped Main Lugs

[Tom Cissell]

30721
Are the main lugs ever rated for more than one conductor? This is an ITE Pushmatic box with 200 Amp disconnect. Is there any definitive code or standard covering this issue? Under what circumstances, if any, is this allowed? I have seen this a number of times and I haven't been able to find any standards regarding it. If it is just manufacturers documentation, how do we find this?

THanks for the help.

[Alton Darty]

It's wrong.
1. Lugs are for one conductor unless it is stamped on the lug.
2. When a lug is rated, listed and labeled for more than one conductor they usually are required to be the same size.
3. There is probably no overcurrent protection for the circuit tapped off the lug except the utility company fuse at the pole or transformer.

[Scott Patterson]

As Alton noted, it is wrong and I find it fairly often in old panels. Being a Pushmatic, I doubt you will easily find a reference from the manufacturer. I would not worry about documenting that it is wrong, call it out and just say it is wrong and needs an electrician to correct.

Sometimes we are too concerned about providing proof to justify our findings when simply reporting what we find is all that is needed. If someone wants proof let them find the proof that it is correct!

[Tom Cissell]

As Alton noted, it is wrong and I find it fairly often in old panels. Being a Pushmatic, I doubt you will easily find a reference from the manufacturer. I would not worry about documenting that it is wrong, call it out and just say it is wrong and needs an electrician to correct.

Sometimes we are too concerned about providing proof to justify our findings when simply reporting what we find is all that is needed. If someone wants proof let them find the proof that it is correct!

Thanks.

[bob smit]

As Alton noted, it is wrong and I find it fairly often in old panels. Being a Pushmatic, I doubt you will easily find a reference from the manufacturer. I would not worry about documenting that it is wrong, call it out and just say it is wrong and needs an electrician to correct.

Sometimes we are too concerned about providing proof to justify our findings when simply reporting what we find is all that is needed. If someone wants proof let them find the proof that it is correct!

Incorrect! Everything IS leagal untill proven otherwize. Otherwize, only opinions would be necessary instead of legal standards. It is this type of mind set that leads to abuse.

Missing from the pics that have been posted of legal (approved) multi-conductor terminals: There are terminals rated/approved for two conductors under one set screw. I've used them many times, usually in commercial and industrial equipment. Manufacturers often have these as options.
These terminals are characterized by oval or what appears like two holes connected togeather.
They are quite obvious upon observation.

[Tom Cissell]

Incorrect! Everything IS leagal untill proven otherwize. Otherwize, only opinions would be necessary instead of legal standards. It is this type of mind set that leads to abuse.

Missing from the pics that have been posted of legal (approved) multi-conductor terminals: There are terminals rated/approved for two conductors under one set screw. I've used them many times, usually in commercial and industrial equipment. Manufacturers often have these as options.
These terminals are characterized by oval or what appears like two holes connected togeather.
They are quite obvious upon observation.

Thanks for the additional info. The ones in question in this panel did not have an oval shape.

[Jim Port]

To Bob S, I disagree. Driving 60 in 40 is always illegal, it just becomes a problem when caught. Installing work not in conformance with the standards enforced is illegal, whether it mleads to a problem or not.

Since those are not multi-conductor terminals they are not code compliant. If the NEC has been adopted that would then be a violation of a legally adopted standard.

[Jerry Peck]

Incorrect! Everything IS leagal untill proven otherwize.

That's like saying that when a tree falls in the forest because there is no one around to hear the sound.

It is illegal (I dislike that term in this instance) WHETHER OR NOT someone is caught or something is proven or not.

A tree falling in the forest DOES make the very same noise ... whether or not anyone is there to hear it.

[Rollie Meyers]

Even if you could apply tap rules & IMO they do not apply in this case, it fails miserably.

[Garry Sorrells]

It is illegal (I dislike that term in this instance) WHETHER OR NOT someone is caught or something is proven or not.

.


Maybe we should use "not just or true" for "illegal" ?


Rollie;
Please elaborate on "it fails miserably."

[Jim Port]

I believe Rollie is talking about how it does not come close to meeting the tap rules properly.

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I believe Rollie is talking about how it does not come close to meeting the tap rules properly.

- - - Updated - - -

I believe Rollie is talking about how it does not come close to meeting the tap rules properly.

[Lon Henderson]

Incorrect! Everything IS leagal untill proven otherwize. Otherwize, only opinions would be necessary instead of legal standards. It is this type of mind set that leads to abuse.
I don't think that came out the way you intended.

There are terminals rated/approved for two conductors under one set screw. I've used them many times, usually in commercial and industrial equipment. Manufacturers often have these as options.
These terminals are characterized by oval or what appears like two holes connected togeather.
They are quite obvious upon observation.
You can put two ground wires of the same gauge under the same lug in a service panel, but I'm unaware of any allowed terminal that you can put wires of different gauges under the same lug.

[John Kogel]

Hey bob.
A 200 amp disconnect feeds that large conductor.

Someone has slipped a #10 or similar gauge wire in there. It's a no-brainer. :D

[bob smit]

I don't think that came out the way you intended.

You can put two ground wires of the same gauge under the same lug in a service panel, but I'm unaware of any allowed terminal that you can put wires of different gauges under the same lug.

Thanks for being the only one who didn't jump to inference Lon. :)

[Ken Amelin]

Are these neutral lugs the approved type or is this illegal also?

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Are these neutral lugs the approved type or is this illegal also?

[Jim Port]

Ken, they still look like the standard lug that Square D uses that is only for one cnductor.

[Jim Hintz]

That's like saying that when a tree falls in the forest because there is no one around to hear the sound.

It is illegal (I dislike that term in this instance) WHETHER OR NOT someone is caught or something is proven or not.

A tree falling in the forest DOES make the very same noise ... whether or not anyone is there to hear it. Just like if a Man is in the woods, and there is no Woman around for a 100 miles, He's "STILL" Wrong ! :D