Meter and hose bibb

[Tom Rees]

What if anything would you say about the proximity of the hose bibb to the electrical meter, is this a code violation, a bad idea or both?:confused:

[Jack Feldmann]

Since meters are designed to be out in the weather, my guess there is little risk. Good idea? Probably not. Code violation? Not sure, but my guess is probably not.

[Jerry Peck]

The hose bibb itself next to the meter is the height of stupidity ... but not a code violation - that said ... the height of stupidity was raised when some idiot installed that 'Y' adapter and aimed it at the side of the meter can.

[Tom Rees]

The hose bibb itself next to the meter is the height of stupidity ... but not a code violation - that said ... the height of stupidity was raised when some idiot installed that 'Y' adapter and aimed it at the side of the meter can.
Yeah Jerry, I liked that little added touch.

[Jerry Peck]

Tom,

Is the meter that low ... or is the hose bibb that high?

[Tom Rees]

The hose bibb is that high. This house had a lot of interesting handyman work.

[Jack Feldmann]

The Y adapters that I use have shut off valves for each side.

[Tom Rees]

Jack, Those small black plastic ones. They may be on the other side of the Y adapter, I can't remember seeing them however.

[Mark Reinmiller]

While we are at it, what about the capping above the meter? I assume it is covering the service entrance. Is the service entrance in conduit? Around here it is typically SEC and could not be covered like that.

[Jerry Peck]

While we are at it, what about the capping above the meter? I assume it is covering the service entrance. Is the service entrance in conduit? Around here it is typically SEC and could not be covered like that.

NEC does not allow it either as that enclosure (if it is enclosing the SE cable) is part of the structure and the SE cable has now entered the structure (is not longer deemed "outside the structure").

I trust that the service entrance conductors go out the back of the meter, through the wall, and into the service equipment on the other side of that wall ... right?

[Tom Rees]

I trust that the service entrance conductors go out the back of the meter, through the wall, and into the service equipment on the other side of that wall ... right?

That would be correct Jerry.

[William Heuberger]

The Y adapters that I use have shut off valves for each side.

If the Y adapter has shut off valves and the hose bid has backflow protection (hose bib atmospheric vacuum breaker or a factory installed vacuum breaker) the shut off valves on the Y adapter are not legal. You have just placed the AVB under constant pressure. AVB's re not allowed be under pressure no more than 12 hours out of 24 hours per day.

The Plumbing Code require hose bibs to be protected.

IPC 2012

608.15.4.2 Hose connections.
Sillcocks, hose bibbs, wall hydrants and other openings with a hose connection shall be protected by an atmospheric-type or pressure-type vacuum breaker or a permanently attached hose connection vacuum breaker.

From Watts12. Where is a hose bibb vacuum breaker used?

Hose bibb vacuum breakers are small inexpensive devices with hose connections which are simply attached to sill cocks and threaded faucets or wherever there is a possibility of a hose being attached which could be introduced to a contaminant. However, like the atmospheric vacuum breaker they should not be used under continuous pressure.:

[Jim Robinson]

If the Y adapter has shut off valves and the hose bid has backflow protection (hose bib atmospheric vacuum breaker or a factory installed vacuum breaker) the shut off valves on the Y adapter are not legal. You have just placed the AVB under constant pressure. AVB's re not allowed be under pressure no more than 12 hours out of 24 hours per day.



Why would the shut off valves on the Y connector be any different than leaving the hose energized for a sprinkler system (or just on a hose with a spray nozzle) without using any Y connectors? All would have the AVB under constant pressure. Maybe they should just make leaving the hose on illegal. Not saying it's a good idea, but I don't see why the Y connector shut off even comes into play. There are lots of ways the hose bib can be under pressure. Seems like it wouldn't be under pressure if the back flow were to be needed. Sounds like a cop out on the manufacturer's side.

[William Heuberger]

Why would the shut off valves on the Y connector be any different than leaving the hose energized for a sprinkler system (or just on a hose with a spray nozzle) without using any Y connectors? All would have the AVB under constant pressure. Maybe they should just make leaving the hose on illegal. Not saying it's a good idea, but I don't see why the Y connector shut off even comes into play. There are lots of ways the hose bib can be under pressure. Seems like it wouldn't be under pressure if the back flow were to be needed. Sounds like a cop out on the manufacturer's side.

I just telling you what the rules are. You and all other inspectors need t make your inspection reports o the code, rules, and manufacturers recommendation not your opinions.

I disagree with the code at time but as a professional I suck it up and make my installation code compliant.

An AVB is not allowed to be under pressure more than 12 hours out of 24 for any reason. Do a Google search and see for yourself.

[Jerry Peck]

If the Y adapter has shut off valves and the hose bid has backflow protection (hose bib atmospheric vacuum breaker or a factory installed vacuum breaker) the shut off valves on the Y adapter are not legal. You have just placed the AVB under constant pressure.

William,

Your information is not without merit, however, you are likely mis-applying that information as most (if not all) the time I see those wye adapters (and use them) the wye adapter is not under pressure continuously.

Typically, the hose bibb shutoff is used to shut the water off, with the wye adapter shutoffs being used as a valve to control which side of the wye adapter gets pressure.

Atmospheric vacuum breakers are always under pressure on the supply side and under atmospheric pressure on the outlet side - that is why they work on systems under continuous pressure.

Here is another variable for you to apply if you write up wye adapters with shutoff valves - ANY hose connected to a hose bibb would need to also be written up as the hose is likely NOT under atmospheric pressure as there may be a spray nozzle attached, the hose was likely not drained of water which allows the sun to heat up the water in the hose and create pressure, etc (many other variables exist).

Then there are campgrounds where hoses are connected to the hose bibb and left pressurized for a weekend, a week, a month, or ever months.

Do you write up every loose switch or receptacle plate screw?

[William Heuberger]

William,

Your information is not without merit, however, you are likely mis-applying that information as most (if not all) the time I see those wye adapters (and use them) the wye adapter is not under pressure continuously.

Typically, the hose bibb shutoff is used to shut the water off, with the wye adapter shutoffs being used as a valve to control which side of the wye adapter gets pressure.

Atmospheric vacuum breakers are always under pressure on the supply side and under atmospheric pressure on the outlet side - that is why they work on systems under continuous pressure.

Here is another variable for you to apply if you write up wye adapters with shutoff valves - ANY hose connected to a hose bibb would need to also be written up as the hose is likely NOT under atmospheric pressure as there may be a spray nozzle attached, the hose was likely not drained of water which allows the sun to heat up the water in the hose and create pressure, etc (many other variables exist).

Then there are campgrounds where hoses are connected to the hose bibb and left pressurized for a weekend, a week, a month, or ever months.

Do you write up every loose switch or receptacle plate screw?

No shut off valves are allowed downstream of an AVB. Period. NO shut off valves allowed downstream on a AB. An AVB cannot be under pressure more than 12 hours per 24 hors.

- - - Updated - - -


William,

Your information is not without merit, however, you are likely mis-applying that information as most (if not all) the time I see those wye adapters (and use them) the wye adapter is not under pressure continuously.

Typically, the hose bibb shutoff is used to shut the water off, with the wye adapter shutoffs being used as a valve to control which side of the wye adapter gets pressure.

Atmospheric vacuum breakers are always under pressure on the supply side and under atmospheric pressure on the outlet side - that is why they work on systems under continuous pressure.

Here is another variable for you to apply if you write up wye adapters with shutoff valves - ANY hose connected to a hose bibb would need to also be written up as the hose is likely NOT under atmospheric pressure as there may be a spray nozzle attached, the hose was likely not drained of water which allows the sun to heat up the water in the hose and create pressure, etc (many other variables exist).

Then there are campgrounds where hoses are connected to the hose bibb and left pressurized for a weekend, a week, a month, or ever months.

Do you write up every loose switch or receptacle plate screw?

No shut off valves are allowed downstream of an AVB. Period. NO shut off valves allowed downstream on a AB. An AVB cannot be under pressure more than 12 hours per 24 hors.

[Jerry Peck]

No shut off valves are allowed downstream of an AVB. Period. NO shut off valves allowed downstream on a AB. An AVB cannot be under pressure more than 12 hours per 24 hors.

Yet shut off valves are PERMITTED AND ALLOWED by AHJ all across the country all over the place ...

Thus, your "No shut off valves are allowed downstream of an AVB." is incorrect - they are ALLOWED by the AHJ ... what I suspect you meant to say was that the manufacturers of atmospheric vacuum breakers recommend that no shut off valve be allowed downstream of the device to prevent damage to the device.

Think about it ... if there is a shut off valve downstream of the atmospheric vacuum breaker and the valve is open - no different than a hose connected to the device (which is what they are made for), and if that valve is closed .... then there cannot be any backflow - which is what the device is designed and intended to prevent.

So, it is the manufacturers who do not want a valve downstream of their devices as that can place pressure on each side of the device and the device can be damaged - which could be why so many atmospheric vacuum breakers on hose bibbs go bad so quickly.

Shut the shut off valve off and you have accomplished the same thing as the valve is designed to do - stop backflow.

[Tom Rees]

Just to make it clear William, the shut offs on Y connector are to direct the water, to the left, to the right or to both. They are not designed as shut off valves but that is just what we call them. If you want to turn off the water use the handle on the faucet.

[Rick Cantrell]

Atmospheric vacuum breakers are always under pressure on the supply side and under atmospheric pressure on the outlet side - that is why they work on systems under continuous pressure.

Sorry Jerry, on this, you are incorrect.
On AVB's, the shutoff valve is located BEFORE the AVB.
NO shutoff is allowed after an AVB




Then there are campgrounds where hoses are connected to the hose bibb and left pressurized for a weekend, a week, a month, or ever months.


On Thursday I finished testing 150 backflow preventers at an RV campsite.
Same as a SFH, they use Double Check backflow preventers, not AVB's. Horses and Zebras.

[Jerry Peck]

Sorry Jerry, on this, you are incorrect.
On AVB's, the shutoff valve is located BEFORE the AVB.
NO shutoff is allowed after an AVB
.
.
On Thursday I finished testing 150 backflow preventers at an RV campsite.
Same as a SFH, they use Double Check backflow preventers, not AVB's. Horses and Zebras.

Sorry Rick, but I am not wrong on this (guess that either makes you wrong or not understanding what was said - I vote for the latter).

There ARE shutoffs before the AVB (as you stated) and there ARE shutoffs after the AVB (as I stated) for weekends, weeks, even months ... think about what I stated previously and what I just restated ... include thinking about what I/we are talking about (campgrounds), what goes into campgrounds for weekends, weeks, even months (RVs), and think about what is in each RV to keep water from flowing constantly.

I believe you will agree that what I said was correct.

[Rick Cantrell]

Sorry Rick, but I am not wrong on this (guess that either makes you wrong or not understanding what was said - I vote for the latter).

There ARE shutoffs before the AVB (as you stated) and there ARE shutoffs after the AVB (as I stated) for weekends, weeks, even months ... think about what I stated previously and what I just restated ... include thinking about what I/we are talking about (campgrounds), what goes into campgrounds for weekends, weeks, even months (RVs), and think about what is in each RV to keep water from flowing constantly.

I believe you will agree that what I said was correct.

In the example you used, RV campsites, they do not use AVBs. They use a Double check.
A double check does have a shutoff past the backflow preventer.
Double Checks protect against Back Pressure and Back Siphonage, and is approved for continuous pressure. An AVB protest against Back Siphonage ONLY, not back pressure, and is not approved for continuous pressure.
An AVB is most often used on lawn irrigation systems* (sprinklers) and does not and is not allowed to have a shutoff past the backflow preventer. NEVER EVER EVER EVER.
* Also used on some sinks, such as in a lab and restaurants, and in some industries such as those using chemical vats.

Getting back to Hose Bib style of Vacuum Breakers
The hose is not permanently connected to the hose bib, so it does not have as stringent requirements as does an AVB for a lawn sprinkler. Therefore I know of no code restriction on having a shutoff on the hose end.

[Jerry Peck]

In the example you used, RV campsites, they do not use AVBs. They use a Double check.
.
.
Getting back to Hose Bib style of Vacuum Breakers
The hose is not permanently connected to the hose bib, so it does not have as stringent requirements as does an AVB for a lawn sprinkler. Therefore I know of no code restriction on having a shutoff on the hose end.

Aha-ha! I knew you would get it (you haven't got it quite yet, but I am sure you will with this) ...

Those hose bibb vacuum breakers are what we are talking about and they are atmospheric vacuum breakers ... along with the others you are thinking of.

So ... campgrounds DO use AVB, and they ARE used on the hose bibbs, and they DO have shutoffs AFTER the AVB when RVs are connected to the hose bibbs.

That is what we are talking about - atmospheric vacuum breakers on hose bibbs, all the way back to the first post - and that is also what is said and was talking about in my post which you took issue with - atmospheric vacuum breakers on hose bibbs in campgrounds.

Good to see that you now understand what we have been discussing ... sometimes knowing a lot about something more complex (such as your backflow certification) gets in the way of seeing the simple (hose bibb atmospheric vacuum breakers) and the discussion around the simple.

[Rick Cantrell]

Jerry
Hose bibs use a "Hose Bib Vacuum Breaker". It is threaded to allow connection of a garden hose. It's similar too, but not the same as an AVB.
The hose bib an RV connects to does not have an AVB (or at least it should not have one).
If someone installed a "Hose Bob Vacuum Breaker", they did not really understand what they were doing.

AVBs NEVER EVER are allowed to have a shutoff past the AVB.

I could go on and discuss this in more detail than most people here really want to know, but if I continue someone will get ****** because of thread drift.
So I will stop here, that is, unless Y'all really want to know more.;)

[gargalaxy]

608.13.5 Pressure-type vacuum breakers. Pressure-type vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1020 or CSA B64.1.2 and spillproof vacuum breakers shall comply with ASSE 1056. These devices are designed for installation under continuous pressure conditions when the critical level is installed at the required height. Pressure-type vacuum breakers shall not be installed in locations where spillage could cause damage to the structure.

608.13.6 Atmospheric-type vacuum breakers. Pipe-applied atmospheric-type vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1001 or CAN/CSA B64.1.1. Hose-connection vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1011, ASSE 1019, ASSE 1035, ASSE 1052, CAN/CSA B64.2, CSA B64.2.1, CSA B64.2.1.1, CAN/CSA B64.2.2 or CSA B64.7. These devices shall operate under normal atmospheric pressure when the critical level is installed at the required height.

AVB just one shut off valve, not shut off valve allowed downstream or after AVB device.

[Jerry Peck]

P2902.3.2 Atmospheric-type vacuum breakers.*
Pipe-applied atmospheric-type vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1001 or CSA B64.1.1. Hose-connection vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1011, ASSE 1019, ASSE 1035, ASSE 1052, CSA B64.2, CSA B64.2.1, CSA B64.2.1.1, CSA B64.2.2 or CSA B64.7. These devices shall operate under normal atmospheric pressure when the critical level is installed at the required height.

A hose connection vacuum breaker is an atmospheric vacuum breaker ... at least by the code. :)

[Rick Cantrell]

P2902.3.2 Atmospheric-type vacuum breakers.*
Pipe-applied atmospheric-type vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1001 or CSA B64.1.1. Hose-connection vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1011, ASSE 1019, ASSE 1035, ASSE 1052, CSA B64.2, CSA B64.2.1, CSA B64.2.1.1, CSA B64.2.2 or CSA B64.7. These devices shall operate under normal atmospheric pressure when the critical level is installed at the required height.

A hose connection vacuum breaker is an atmospheric vacuum breaker ... at least by the code. :)
Well
Not according to the 2006 IRC
P2902.4.3 Hose connection. Sillcocks, hose bibbs, wall
hydrants and other openings with a hose connection shall be
protected by an atmospheric-type or pressure-type vacuum
breaker or a permanently attached hose connection vacuum
breaker.
Hose connection vacuum breaker is listed separate from Atmospheric vacuum breaker
Even from what you posted
Pipe-applied Atmospheric-type vacuum breakers / Hose-connection vacuum breakers
ASSE 1001 / ASSE 1011, ASSE 1019, ASSE 1035, ASSE 1052
or
CSA B64.1.1 / CSA B64.7


This is what I said all along, AVB is not the same as a hose bib vacuum breaker. Remember Horses and Zebras.


It's completely understandable that you said AVB, when you should have said Hose bib vacuum breaker. Not that I fault you for not knowing the difference.

[Jerry Peck]

AVB just one shut off valve, not shut off valve allowed downstream or after AVB device.

The question isn't whether a shutoff after an AVB is permitted by code (not permitted by code), or even whether allowed (the are allowed to have shutoffs after the AVB by many AHJ), in fact it is not even a question ... it is a statement of fact - in every campground with water the AVB are installed where the AHJ KNOWS that a shutoff WILL be installed after the AVB.

It's a simple fact of reality. :)

[gargalaxy]

Jerry what's AHJ? Ain't familiar with that abbreviation, if you don't mind to lighten me.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry what's AHJ? Ain't familiar with that abbreviation, if you don't mind to lighten me.

Authority Having Jurisdiction (the building department, specifically the building official).

[gargalaxy]

Authority Having Jurisdiction (the building department, specifically the building official).
Thanks, that's what I thought. If you don't mind can you tell me the difference between an AVB and a hose bib vacuum breaker? Let's going to start that we agree that both are backflow preventer.

[Jerry Peck]

Well
Not according to the 2006 IRC
P2902.4.3 Hose connection. Sillcocks, hose bibbs, wall
hydrants and other openings with a hose connection shall be
protected by an atmospheric-type or pressure-type vacuum
breaker or a permanently attached hose connection vacuum
breaker.
Hose connection vacuum breaker is listed separate from Atmospheric vacuum breaker
Even from what you posted
Pipe-applied Atmospheric-type vacuum breakers / Hose-connection vacuum breakers
ASSE 1001 / ASSE 1011, ASSE 1019, ASSE 1035, ASSE 1052
or
CSA B64.1.1 / CSA B64.7


This is what I said all along, AVB is not the same as a hose bib vacuum breaker. Remember Horses and Zebras.


It's completely understandable that you said AVB, when you should have said Hose bib vacuum breaker. Not that I fault you for not knowing the difference.

This is also from the 2006 IRC: (underlining and bold are mine)
- P2902.3.2 Atmospheric-type vacuum breakers. - - Pipe- applied atmospheric-type vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1001 or CSA B64.1.1. Hose-connection vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1011, ASSE 1019, ASSE 1035, ASSE 1052, CSA B64.2, CSA B64.2.1, CSA B64.2.1.1, CSA B64.2.2 or CSA B64.7. These devices shall operate under normal atmospheric pressure when the critical level is installed at the required height.

Hose bibb connection vacuum breakers are one type of atmospheric vacuum breaker.

[gargalaxy]

Florida Plumbing Code.
ASSE
1001—02
Performance Requirements for Atmospheric Type Vacuum Breakers

1019—04
Performance Requirements for Vacuum Breaker Wall Hydrants, Freeze Resistant, Automatic Draining Type
Table 608.1, 608.13.6

1052—04
Performance Requirements for Hose Connection Backflow Preventers

[Jerry Peck]

Florida Plumbing Code.
ASSE
1001—02
Performance Requirements for Atmospheric Type Vacuum Breakers

1019—04
Performance Requirements for Vacuum Breaker Wall Hydrants, Freeze Resistant, Automatic Draining Type
Table 608.1, 608.13.6

1052—04
Performance Requirements for Hose Connection Backflow Preventers

The original question is from Utah ... :)

Nonetheless, though - from the 2010 FBC-Residential: (bold and underlining are mine)
- P2902.3.2 Atmospheric-type vacuum breakers. - - Pipe applied atmospheric-type vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1001 or CSA B64.1.1. Hose-connection vacuum breakers shall conform to ASSE 1011, ASSE 1019, ASSE 1035, ASSE 1052, CSA B64.2, CSA B64.2.1, CSA B64.2.1.1, CSA B64.2.2 or CSA B64.7. These devices shall operate under normal atmospheric pressure when the critical level is installed at the required height.

Both are listed under "Atmospheric-type vacuum breakers." Don't know how much clearer it can be for you two ... ? :confused: :)

[gargalaxy]

Maybe you're right but just for info (because I know you're from Florida) Utah use IPC same as Florida. Also you're right, both are listed under Atmospheric-type vacuum breakers but you never told me the difference in between those two.
I forgot the happy face ;)

[Jerry Peck]

Maybe you're right but just for info (because I know you're from Florida) Utah use IPC same as Florida. Also you're right, both are listed under Atmospheric-type vacuum breakers but you never told me the difference in between those two.

Actually, the Florida Building Code, Plumbing is based on the IPC, but has had some changes from the base code (although I don't know why - water runs downhill in Florida just like it does everywhere else :) ). Likewise, the Florida Building Code, Residential is based on the IRS, and, likewise, has also had some changes from the base code.

Utah may or may not use codes based on the IPC and IRC with amendments, I have not checked.

Regarding your question "but you never told me the difference in between those two" I must have missed it the first time, but I saw it this time, and my answer is the same as it would have been the first time: In what way? Hose-connection atmospheric vacuum breakers are only for being attached to hose bibbs (hydrants to some) and the pipe installation types are for installation on pipe for several uses, one of which is irrigation systems, another is for bottom fed water heaters, etc.

As to what the actual differences are (different pressure ranges, technical means of operation, etc.) - you tell me as you and Rick are the certified backflow people and I (along with most others here) are not ... but I (along with most others here) like to learn about things we don't know.

[gargalaxy]

I'm from Florida too that's why I know a bit about our code but also I'm a member of ICC forum. About Rick, he asked me and I just replied him. I can see that you read my intro already because I never mentioned in here that I'm a backflow certified but if you wanna know a bit more, yes I'm. ASSE certified but also TREEO trainer.