Proper restoration method for moisture damaged walls

[ren ramsey]

Got a call about a house that had experienced a newly installed HVAC drip pan overflow. The water damage got down into the lower level and was significant enough to damage the hardwood in one room and carpet in another. The incorrect installation of the HVAC is a given as the malfunction should not have occurred. No discussion needed there. The homeowner is now experiencing headaches and respiratory issues that she did not before and they get better when she goes away from the house. The restoration company replaced the hardwoods, they don't match. They tried to just repaint the ceiling but did remove a small section at the insistence of the owner. The owner feels they are shady. No insulation was removed. My opinion is that since it got wet inside interior partitions, that the sheetrock needs to be removed and replaced and any mold growth there should be remediated as well as remove all sheetrock ceiling that got wet. Is this too draconian? I plan on going out there and looking at the attic insulation to see if it got wet, and moving it around to see if I see stained sheetrock. Is there anyway short of removing the sheetrock walls to determine if there is mold growth in the wall. Your opinions please.

[wayne soper]

they should have a mold test done by a pro, as well as having another remediation company out to survey the work.

You should be advsing them of the right direction, not joining in on the payment ride.
no disespect intended

- - - Updated - - -

they should have a mold test done by a pro, as well as having another remediation company out to survey the work.

You should be advsing them of the right direction, not joining in on the payment ride.
no disespect intended

[ren ramsey]

they should have a mold test done by a pro, as well as having another remediation company out to survey the work.

You should be advsing them of the right direction, not joining in on the payment ride.
no disespect intended

- - - Updated - - -

they should have a mold test done by a pro, as well as having another remediation company out to survey the work.

You should be advsing them of the right direction, not joining in on the payment ride.
no disespect intended

I told her the same thing but she wants me to come out and look at it anyway and wants to pay me. The owner is the daughter of a realtor who of course does not call me until she buys a house or her family needs an inspection. otherwise they use "their guy" Mom/ realtor is the one who contacted me. wonder why she does not trust her normal inspector.

[Raymond Wand]

Remove any damaged drywall, wood, insulation.

Man made products can off gas and cause symptoms.
So can CO if they have gas fired appliances and they are not working/venting properly.
So can plants, and pets.

However only a doctor can determine through testing if someone is actually allergic to moulds.

[Garry Sorrells]

....The water damage got down into the lower level and was significant enough to damage the hardwood in one room and carpet in another. .........now experiencing headaches and respiratory issues......replaced the hardwoods, they don't match. They tried to just repaint the ceiling ........ No insulation was removed. My opinion is that since it got wet inside interior partitions, that the sheetrock needs to be removed and replaced and any mold growth there should be remediated as well as remove all sheetrock ceiling that got wet...........


........The owner is the daughter of a realtor who of course does not call me until she buys a house or her family needs an inspection. otherwise they use "their guy" Mom/ realtor is the one who contacted me. wonder why she does not trust her normal inspector.

Basically treat like a reverse flood situation. Wet gets replaced.. maybe seems a little draconian but that is what it takes to say that there will be no residual issues to contend with future problems and call backs.

The restoration company works for two concerns, themselves and the insurance company paying them unless it is the HVAC company then they are even more compromised to produce a cheap job. Who picked the restoration company, as if I don't already know????

The insulation under and around the pan should have been replaced.
The ceiling needed to be opened up or inspected from the attic to look for any mold.
The 1st fl ceiling should have been opened up and inspected for mold or just replaced.
The walls that had water in them should be removed and replaced.
The hardwood flooring should match if you are talking about a portion of a room. Else the entire room floor is then replaced to the door opening with flooring that matches as close as possible to the rest of the house.
If a one wall is painted then all walls in room are painted so that they match.


The owner being the daughter of a Realtor is interesting as it relates to your relationship with the Realtor. Frankly I would press the Realtor on why she does not use you all the time and who(by name) she does recommend and why. It might be a good opportunity to correct the Realtor's methods for inspections. We know why she uses/recommends someone else; family, cheap or report that will not kill deal. This may be the opportunity to get the Realtor to find some ethics, moving her from the dark side and towards that of the light. What do you have to loose. She will still use you for inspections that are in her own personal interest since she respects your ability.

[Scott Patterson]

A SeeSnake or Borascope would be about the only tool I know of that could allow you to see inside the wall cavity without taking a good size section of drywall out.

What I would do and have done is to cut a hole in the drywall that is a little smaller that a electrical outlet. Then to cover the hole you place a solid cover plate over it. Try to do it behind furniture or somewhere so it is out of sight.

[Jerry Peck]

However only a doctor can determine through testing if someone is actually allergic to moulds.

I've been waiting for someone to say what we on this forum have been saying for years - start with the doctor for the allergies or respiratory issues to form the basis for what is actually bothering the person.

After that ... as inspectors we address what may or MAY NOT be the problem causing the person's discomfort - we are addressing what happened without regard to whether or not it is affecting someone ...


Remove any damaged drywall, wood, insulation.

As Raymond, and others, said - if it got wet, remove it and replace with new.

This applies to basically everything: drywall, insulation, wood paneling, drywall, insulation, electrical wiring and fixtures if they got wet, did I mention drywall yet? :)

There are three separate issues here:
- a) the water which damages items which then need to be replaced;
- b) any molds/moulds which grow on those items which got wet and need to be replaced;
- c) the health of the person.

The home inspector addresses items in a) ... and therefore no one needs to address those items in b) ... not the "Mold is Gold" guys, no one (because those items are replaced, thus the mold/mould is no longer there).

The doctor addresses items in c).

Charter Member of the DDMG. :first:

[Jeff Zehnder]

The issues with the home.

Mitigation should follow certain rules, remove all wet materials (moisture mapping), dry the area, verify it is dry (moisture mapping x 2), replace all materials removed and finish. This short summary is the industry standard for mitigation and when short cuts are taken things can go wrong. If the builder used a mitigation company they must provide documentation of what was done and why, including their tests)!

Health issues are for others to discuss (Jerry), my title is building geek not medical geek.

[wayne soper]

I've been waiting for someone to say what we on this forum have been saying for years - start with the doctor for the allergies or respiratory issues to form the basis for what is actually bothering the person.

After that ... as inspectors we address what may or MAY NOT be the problem causing the person's discomfort - we are addressing what happened without regard to whether or not it is affecting someone ...



As Raymond, and others, said - if it got wet, remove it and replace with new.

This applies to basically everything: drywall, insulation, wood paneling, drywall, insulation, electrical wiring and fixtures if they got wet, did I mention drywall yet? :)

There are three separate issues here:
- a) the water which damages items which then need to be replaced;
- b) any molds/moulds which grow on those items which got wet and need to be replaced;
- c) the health of the person.

The home inspector addresses items in a) ... and therefore no one needs to address those items in b) ... not the "Mold is Gold" guys, no one (because those items are replaced, thus the mold/mould is no longer there).

The doctor addresses items in c).

Charter Member of the DDMG. :first:

madam, your home is underwater due to flooding
"really" ?
I suggest calling a psychaiatrist!

[Eric Barker]

Is there anyway short of removing the sheetrock walls to determine if there is mold growth in the wall. Your opinions please.

No. Also, an air test will not provide a complete analysis at this stage. An invasive investigation is needed and not by someone who is without the proper training.

[Caoimhín P. Connell]

Good morning, Mr. Ramsey –

For a start, a “mould test� won’t tell you anything at all. If you use a “mould pro� as suggested by one poster, then you’ll have an equally useless “test� that cost you twice the price.

“The homeowner is now experiencing headaches and respiratory issues that she did not before and they get better when she goes away from the house.�

This demonstrates that the symptoms are not caused by mould since 1) headaches are not a symptom of mould exposure and 2) her exposures to mould will be greater outdoors than in and therefore she feels better at higher mould exposures; and 3) it would be virtually impossible for her to be exposed to the mould that IS in the walls (there is mould in EVERY wall, without exception).

If the materials are dry, and the restoration work LOOKS acceptable, then the work is done. It really is very simple and it really is THAT simple.

You may enjoy my short video on how to remove toxic mould here. Please feel free to use my technique free of charge: Mould (Mold) Remediation (http://www.forensic-applications.com/moulds/remediation.html)

I hope you all have a GREAT Thanksgiving weekend! (As for me, I shall pig-out on salami, Stilton cheese, alcoholic beverages, leavened bread, and other wondrous foods brought to full enjoyment by our friends, the Fungi!)

Cheers!

CaoimhÃ*n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
Forensic Applications Consulting Technologies, Inc. - Home (http://www.forensic-applications.com)

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

[Jerry Peck]

You may enjoy my short video on how to remove toxic mould here. Please feel free to use my technique free of charge: Mould (Mold) Remediation (http://www.forensic-applications.com/moulds/remediation.html)

CaoimhÃ*n,

But ... but ... but ... no one can make any money doing it that way ... :D ... those Mold is Gold people would be out of business ... :cool:

[Raymond Wand]

headaches are not a symptom of mould exposure

Headaches are not a symptom of mould exposure? How do you know what conditions medically the occupant has to be able to rule out subjectively that mould may not cause headaches? Each person can react differently. We don't know what her symptoms maybe the result of because we are not doctors and have not examined her.

I just think its a far stretch to state categorically things of that nature.:o

[Caoimhín P. Connell]

Good morning, Raymond

There are many things that we can say with confidence and definition. And within the context of what is being discussed here, we can say with confidence: “Headaches are not a symptom of mould exposures.�

Now, if the woman was actually eating large quantities of wallboard that was colonized with moulds, then we could alter that and say: "The consumption of large amounts of mouldy wallboard may cause headaches." However, within the context of the original post and all of the preceding thread, we can conclusively state:

“Headaches are not a symptom of mould exposures.�

Now, it you can find even one peer-reviewed article in a medical journal wherein headaches have actually been demonstrated (as opposed to "reported"), as a result of casual exposure to moulds, then I would be keen to read that article and modify my opinion accordingly.

Cheers!
CaoimhÃ*n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
Forensic Applications Consulting Technologies, Inc. - Home (http://www.forensic-applications.com)

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

[Jerry Peck]

I guess it is like the report I heard on the radio earlier today about the outcome of ELF-EMF radiation (that "radiation" word is what triggered everyone's anxiety) with the result of the originally reported study linking electromagnetic fields to diseases - the new reports take it and run with it, then ... move on to the next big thing without following or reporting on all the research which follows the original.

The vast majority of research which has followed the original research paper has shown that there is no ... NO ... correlation between electromagnetic fields and any disease, with the extremely few other research which, at best, shows the possibility of a possible connection with childhood leukemia - which is a rare disease in and of itself.

From here: CDC - Cancer - Statistics by Demographic - Cancer Among Children (http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/dcpc/data/children.htm)


Note: The numbers in parentheses are the rates per 100,000 children in the United States.
In 2011, the most commonly diagnosed cancers and leading causes of cancer death in children aged 0–19 years were—
Leukemias


Highest incidence rate (8.8) found among children aged 1–4 years.
Highest death rate (0.8) found among children aged 15–19 years.



From here: FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions - Madison Square Garden, New York City - MSG (http://www.thegarden.com/faq.html)


Seating CapacityFor basketball events in the Arena, the seating capacity is 19,763 and for hockey events in the Arena, the seating capacity is 17,200. For all other events, seating capacity changes depending on the set-up of the event. For events in the Theater, the seating capacity is 5,600


100,000 / 19,763 = 5.06
8.8 / 5.06 = 1.7

I found an error in the reporting in that what they stated was that if Madison Square Garden was filled with children, *1* child would has childhood leukemia - the statistics above show it would be 1.7 children, but, being as you cannot have "1.7" "children", they rounded down to *1* ... to err on the positive side, let's use *2* children in there would have childhood leukemia as our base for being how "common" or "rare" childhood leukemia is.

The reporting stated that the research which shows the possibility of a possible connection with childhood leukemia - meaning it is not even sure there is a connection, but that it is "possible" - increases the number of children in that packed Madison Square Garden from 1 to 2, however, we started at 2, but the increase would still be 1 more child ... that is if the research showing a possibility of a possibility is taken at it worst case.

If the fear of electromagnetic field "radiation" is not now debunked (the person who published the original research paper stating there was a connection now says the research has shown there is not), then what else is needed.

The same thing as above will go on with mold/mould for decades ... the news took it and ran with it ... then moved on to the next big thing ...

News reports have to sell papers and/or air time, debunking something they created would not help their cause at all. :(

[Raymond Wand]

Good evening CaoimhÃ*n and thanks very much for your reply.

With the greatest respect, I can't buy into that. The lady is not eating wallboard. And while I have been looking for conclusive proof that headaches are not associated with mould, I have found a few sites stating that headaches can be one of the symptoms which manifest as a result of mould exposure.

Now... can you direct me to peer-reviewed article in a medical journal wherein headaches have not actually been demonstrated as a result of casual exposure to moulds, then I would be keen to read that article and modify my opinion accordingly too. :confused:

Best

[Raymond Wand]

This is interesting - after reading them I am inclined to review my thinking about headaches and mould.

Mold (http://users.physics.harvard.edu/~wilson/soundscience/mold/lees.html)

http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/landuse/vol19_2/persad.pdf

[Jerry Peck]

Raymond,

One does not need to prove that darkness exists just because it is daylight out at the time.

I like the results of some research I heard about today - that the human brain can affect the health of the human body.

Instead of doing research on people who had a cold and trying to show that the human brain could cure the cold (to many other things could affect the body to not cure the cold), they did research with people who did not have a cold and, through suggestions and visual clues of stuff related to a cold, many of the subjects "got a cold" just from the brain being tricked into thinking the body must have had a cold.

Think of it as when people say that someone is "a little bit pregnant" - no ... one is either "pregnant" or one is "not pregnant" ... there is no such thing a being "a little bit pregnant".

Headaches have many causes, and because so many people have headaches, and because so many people breathe air, does that mean that breathing air causes headaches? Of course not. Not even if the air has some mold/mould in it (does any air not have mold/mould in it?).

Thus one does not need to prove what 'does not' give a headache, one needs to prove what 'does'.

[Scott Patterson]

I know that if I'm in a moldy house I feel like crap in about 15-20 minutes. Headache, runny nose, etc... It will last for several hours after I leave the house. I have come to the conclusion that I am allergic to mold..

[ren ramsey]

I know that if I'm in a moldy house I feel like crap in about 15-20 minutes. Headache, runny nose, etc... It will last for several hours after I leave the house. I have come to the conclusion that I am allergic to mold.. I am the same way Scott. When I go into a house that is moldy I have symptoms. I get a burning sensation in my eyes and nose that moves to the back of my throat. I get dizzy for a second and then I get acclimated to it and the dizzy symptom goes away. Mold is the only commonality I have been able to equate it to in 20 yrs. of inspections

[Jerry Peck]

Because many are allergic to it - as I am.

At the same time it affects me, it has not affected the owners. Different people, different allergies.