Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

[Loren Sanders Sr.]

I am installing Type L in my attic and walls. My current system is rolled under the slab. I have never used Shark Bites but have a difficult joint to solder way back in a cabinet that I will have difficulty seeing if I have proper solder flow plus it is in an interior kitchen cabinet and I don't want a fire as it is butted up against the Melonine finish inside my cabinets. I don't know if I can reach it to insert the tool to assemble the Shark Bite. I may have to use soft 1/2" copper and roll it back in that corner...any ideas?

[Ken Rowe]

Shark Bite fittings do not use a tool to assemble the fittings. They are a simple push connector. You'll only use the tool to disconnect the fittings. The "tool" is a simple piece of U shaped plastic, slightly larger in diameter than the fitting.

To answer your question, no, Shark Bite fittings are not recommended by professional plumbers. Only because they can charge you much more for the installation if they have to sweat copper. Basically the same reason they don't recommend PEX, they can charge much more for the installation. That being said, I replaced all the galvanized water pipes in my house about 5 years ago with PEX and Shark Bite fittings and haven't had any problems whatsoever.

[Loren Sanders Sr.]

Shark Bite fittings do not use a tool to assemble the fittings. They are a simple push connector. You'll only use the tool to disconnect the fittings. The "tool" is a simple piece of U shaped plastic, slightly larger in diameter than the fitting.

To answer your question, no, Shark Bite fittings are not recommended by professional plumbers. Only because they can charge you much more for the installation if they have to sweat copper. Basically the same reason they don't recommend PEX, they can charge much more for the installation. That being said, I replaced all the galvanized water pipes in my house about 5 years ago with PEX and Shark Bite fittings and haven't had any problems whatsoever.

Thanks for your help. I have not used PEX before but understand it is very good. I am old school and prefer copper. My problem is my house had the copper installed under the slab rolled up into the walls. My hot leaked a few years ago and I installed my hot system is in the attic. I have a single story home. I am 75 years old and look forward to some fun installing the Cold system. Thanks again.
Srloren

[Raymond Wand]

I have used Shark Bite in my own home with good results, no failures.
My licenced plumber uses Shark Bite and he swears by them.

[Garry Sorrells]

Acceptable, yes. Plumbers love to hate them. Except when it saves them time or aggravation.

A little advice; chamfer and then round the edges of the ends to be inserted into the fitting. Any little sharp edge or burr will damage the O-ring and may not fail for months or years but creates the possibility.. From practical experience I have had failure at 1 week, 2 months and 1 1/2 yrs all resulting from the same cause, nicked O-ring. I cut the fitting apart to inspect cause. Hast makes waste.:( :mad2:

The horse shoe is used to remove fitting, you can also use common pliers to get it off also.

You can get insulation made to protect cabinet when sweating pipe.

ps. You could pre-assemble(sweat together) the corner and then sweat a coupling in where it is easier for you to access....

[Jerry Peck]

I am installing Type L in my attic and walls.

DON'T USE Shark Bite Fittings ... there is no electrical continuity through them, at least they are not tested or approved for electrical continuity through them, and thus need to be treated as though there is none (because there likely will be none when you need it).

I called the factory (okay, the "importers") a few years ago and they asked what I was asking about. When I explained that interior metal water piping is required to be bonded to the grounding system and that the solder couplings and fittings continue the electrical bonding throughout the metal piping system, they stated that, no, they had not tested the fittings for that purpose, and that with the design of the fitting including non-metallic parts used to seal the fittings to the pipe that there could not be a guarantee that the electrical continuity would be continuous through the Shark Bite fittings.

That means you would need to install a clamp on the copper piping on each side of any Shark Bite fitting and install a bonding jumper (properly sized wire) from pipe to pipe across the fitting ... just like they do for water meters, when plastic piping is used to repair a section of metal piping, etc.

So, sure, use Shark Bite fittings, but by the time you buy the clamps (two clamps for each Shark Bite fitting) and buy the properly sized bonding wire, install the bonding clamps and bonding wire - you would probably be better off to just use solder fittings (there are fittings which contain the solder in them - "presoldered fittings", all you do is clean the end of the pipe like you would for a solder fitting, install the solder holding fitting, then heat the fitting to solder it on .. Pre-Soldered Copper Fittings – IAPMO Approved (http://www.presolderedfittings.com/) , PC604 - Adapter P x M ? Wrot Copper (http://www.nibco.com/Fittings/Press-Fittings-and-Tools/Fittings/PC604-Adapter-P-x-M-Wrot-Copper/) , and others).

[Trent Tarter]

I just used some Shark Bite fittings on PEX in my own home, remodeling a bathroom and replaced the shower valve. I see plumbers using them for repair work mostly. I used some Shark Bites a few years ago on a relatives home, no problems so far. Here's a video on how to make proper connections. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF5ehHMHCdk

[John Kogel]

With a tubing cutter or a hacksaw and a file, replacing an electric water heater is about a one hour job. Good way to go.

But take heed to JP's warning. Bonding is going to be an issue.

[Lon Henderson]

JP brings up a good point about electrical continuity, but depending on what you are doing, it's no more concern than using PEX. I love Shark Bites. I've heard the bad stories about them but I've never seen a failure in observing around a thousand of them.

[Jerry Peck]

JP brings up a good point about electrical continuity, but depending on what you are doing, it's no more concern than using PEX. I love Shark Bites. I've heard the bad stories about them but I've never seen a failure in observing around a thousand of them.

It's no more concern than using PEX ... IF THE PIPING SYSTEM IS nonmetallic ... but if the piping system is metal - then it is a BIG CONCERN as metal piping systems are required to be bonded.

[Ian Page]

I've used SuperGlue, Copper-Bond epoxy adhesive in the past in difficult locations to solder. Easy to use, can be a little messy and working time for epoxy is less than stated. About $8 but can be used for multiple applications. Never had a problem with leaks except when I forgot/failed to clean fittings. Removal of the joint is the sames as for sweated but faster because of a lower melt point. Make sure the product is fresh off the shelf. If it's old it doesn't squeeze out of the syringes equally.

[Jack Feldmann]

Shark Bites have stainless steel barbs on the inside that are the points that grab the pipes being inserted. Do they not provide the metal to metal contact for electrical continuity?

[Jerry Peck]

Shark Bites have stainless steel barbs on the inside that are the points that grab the pipes being inserted. Do they not provide the metal to metal contact for electrical continuity?

Not reliably according to the person I talked at there is not 'made in' intended electrical contact and there is/are nonmetallic part(s) inside which could interfere with electrical contact.

The simple fact is that those fittings were not made to maintain electrical contact through the fittings, they were not tested to see if they maintained electrical contact through the fittings, and they are not listed for maintaining electrical contact through the fittings.

Would you want to risk your life on a "maybe it will make electrical contact"?

And then there is "I've used SuperGlue, Copper-Bond epoxy adhesive in the past in difficult locations to solder." ... what is the know and intended electrical contact through those?

Just because it "glues" two things together and does leak does not mean it should be done. Using those things just may have broken the electrical bond through the metal piping system and it is sitting there waiting to shock someone.

Or maybe those reading some of us get with the tick tracer on the plumbing can be traced back to those types of "repairs" or fittings?

[Lon Henderson]

I had not considered the continuity issue with shark bites before. Now as I read this discussion, it's obvious that you need to consider what you're doing with them and where you're doing it.

Here's an earlier discussion about them.

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/25892-ground-strap-jumper.html

Interesting that Shark Bite has not addressed this issue and as far as I know, there are not any code or legal concerns about continuity. This has that "feel" of being a bite to the arse similar to the issues that arose from CSST.

[Jack Feldmann]

Jerry,
I was just asking the question, not advocating the use of them. I looked at the spec sheet and it says they are approved by several codes, etc. I could not find anything about the electrical continuity.
Did you actually talk to a tech person, or was it just the distributor and/or customer service desk person.

Where I'm going with this is you may have talked to a desk person that really had no clue of the actual specs or testing. I don't know, and I'm not taking the defense of them.
I have never cut one in half to see all of the inside, but isn't the body of the fitting brass, and the pipes are supposed to be fully inserted till they hit a stop? Its possible there is enough metal to metal contact on the inside of the fitting to preserve the continuity.

[Billy Stephens]

Page 4 states ELECTRICALLY CONTINUOUS http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_TechBrchr_201411.pdf

[Jerry Peck]

Jack,

I talked with several people - I said I was seeking the answer to a technical question as to whether the fittings were electrically continuous, after being passed to several people who had no idea what I was asking I was passed to a person who said that they had never been asked that before - he said he would check on it and get back to me - which he did.

From the other thread linked to, that was 3 years ago.

From what Billy posted (the issue date of that is May 1, 2014) it appears that they have addressed that question and/or made changes as needed so that those fittings are now deemed electrically continuous when used on copper or steel pipe.

Does that apply to older fittings or just newer fittings - I don't have the answer to that.

[Ian Page]

Jack,

I talked with several people - I said I was seeking the answer to a technical question as to whether the fittings were electrically continuous, after being passed to several people who had no idea what I was asking I was passed to a person who said that they had never been asked that before - he said he would check on it and get back to me - which he did.

From the other thread linked to, that was 3 years ago.

From what Billy posted (the issue date of that is May 1, 2014) it appears that they have addressed that question and/or made changes as needed so that those fittings are now deemed electrically continuous when used on copper or steel pipe.

Does that apply to older fittings or just newer fittings - I don't have the answer to that.


From a legal standpoint would probably include all fittings, past or present as long as there was no significant or radical change in manufacture. Otherwise Sharkbite would issue a product warning about consumers not relying on their older fittings for continuous bonding.

[Jim Robinson]

It doesn't seem too hard to test it for continuity. Anybody ever try it? I don't see them too often but next time I do I'll try it. They usually are patching in a section of PEX when I see them, so that's definitely not going to have any continuity. I doubt the manufacturer is going to accept liability by stating that it does provide continuity if they don't have to.

[Billy Stephens]

Page 4 states ELECTRICALLY CONTINUOUS http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_TechBrchr_201411.pdf


It doesn't seem too hard to test it for continuity. Anybody ever try it? I don't see them too often but next time I do I'll try it. They usually are patching in a section of PEX when I see them, so that's definitely not going to have any continuity. I doubt the manufacturer is going to accept liability by stating that it does provide continuity if they don't have to.
......

[Jerry Peck]

From a legal standpoint would probably include all fittings, past or present as long as there was no significant or radical change in manufacture. Otherwise Sharkbite would issue a product warning about consumers not relying on their older fittings for continuous bonding.

That's my thinking also: the newer technical information would 'excludes fittings made before (date)' if they were too concerned about it.

My guess is that the older fitting may not be rated for electrical continuity but the manufacturer realizes that the chances of their fittings being blamed for something is quite remote.

[Jerry Peck]

Someone has forgotten this.
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/25892-ground-strap-jumper.html

Nope ... no one has forgotten that, but ... I think someone has forgotten that the newer information does *not* state that fittings made before such-and-such date is excluded - thus, should a problem occur with an older fittings, they would be (could be in court) forced to stand behind their claim that the fittings are electrically continuous.

Especially if no design changes were made - that would come out in court. No design changes means (indicates) that the older fittings will perform similarly to the newer fittings.

If design changes were made ... the check they write will have more zeros and an extra comma or two. :)

[John Kogel]

I just checked two Shark Bite connections which were installed in April with a new water heater on copper plumbing pipe.
There was litteraly no resistance shown with a DMM on either connection, in other words, electrical continuity.

Yes, the connections could suffer from tarnish but so can a clamp and a set screw.

[Jim Luttrall]

I just checked two Shark Bite connections which were installed in April with a new water heater on copper plumbing pipe.
There was litteraly no resistance shown with a DMM on either connection, in other words, electrical continuity.

Yes, the connections could suffer from tarnish but so can a clamp and a set screw.

John, did you isolate the pipe from other possible electrical continuity to ensure you were reading the fittings themselves?

I don't know how these things work inside but having used a couple, I can't see how they would have a reliable metal to metal continuity. They seem awfully loose.

[John Kogel]

Jim, I did not have permission to cut any pipe. :D

I measured resistance and found it to be negligable, so there is no isolated pipe. I think that would satisfy the question of whether to use and trust the fittings.

After installing, always check for isolated sections of pipes. Add a jumper strap if you need to. How's that?

[Rick Cantrell]

Not having any resistance is not the same as being electrically bonded.
A 24ga copper wire will show no resistance but is it suitable for use as a bonding wire.

[John Kogel]

Not having any resistance is not the same as being electrically bonded.
A 24ga copper wire will show no resistance but is it suitable for use as a bonding wire?You are correct that a thin wire is not suitable for a bonding wire. But it might work as one. As long as it didn't burn up before the fault got back to the circuit breaker, which would be in the order of a milisecond.

So the question is will the stainless steel grippers burn out like a thin wire? I don't know. Maybe someone should try 240 volts on a fitting. Even that won't prove they are always good conductors, only that the tested units are.

Wait a bit. The thin wire will burn because it has a higher R than a thick one. The Sharkbites had R in the order of 0.2 ohms. The probes touched together, 0.1 to 0.2 ohms. probes 3" apart on the same pipe, 0.2 ohms, several feet apart on the same pipe, 0.2 ohms, across one or both fittings, 0.2 ohms. Yes, my DMM only puts out 9 volts, so we need more testing.

[Loren Sanders Sr.]

You are correct that a thin wire is not suitable for a bonding wire. But it might work as one. As long as it didn't burn up before the fault got back to the circuit breaker, which would be in the order of a milisecond.

So the question is will the stainless steel grippers burn out like a thin wire? I don't know. Maybe someone should try 240 volts on a fitting. Even that won't prove they are always good conductors, only that the tested units are.

Wait a bit. The thin wire will burn because it has a higher R than a thick one. The Sharkbites had R in the order of 0.2 ohms. The probes touched together, 0.1 to 0.2 ohms. probes 3" apart on the same pipe, 0.2 ohms, several feet apart on the same pipe, 0.2 ohms, across one or both fittings, 0.2 ohms. Yes, my DMM only puts out 9 volts, so we need more testing.

After reading this thread and without reference to continuity issues, I still think Shark Bites are a band aid fix. Any time you have O-rings in a device, you should have access to repair or replace parts. I chose not to utilize SBs.

[Dwight Doane]

Jerry Peck makes an excellent argument about continuity , that said I have used them in situations where I had a leak and couldn't get anything or didn't have anything else available.

My recommendation however is to use either Swagelock fittings (expensive but never had one fail - ever) or yor lock fittings

McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#swagelok-compatible-tube-fittings/=v9g776)

These use a metal ferrel that is compressed onto the pipe and is a compression type fitting - much higher quality than what you get at home depot. For years I worked in the compressed gas industry and I used them for High pressure (10,000 psi - and fittings all rated for pressure and application) and low pressure water lines that would occasionally need to be removed for maintenance. I have also used them in tight spots under cabinets too where I did not want to use a torch

As for the sharkbite fittings - well they serve their purpose and I consider them a quick repair that can last a year if needed. But I must warn you - I have never seen a pressure rating on them either and I don't know at what pressure the anchor teeth will let go

[Dwight Doane]

So after reading and giving my 2 cents on this matter I wanted to look at the specs which I found (Jerry Peck you should save a copy of this)

http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_Engnrng_SpcPckg_2014.pdf

it took a while but I did find they are rated for 200 psi (a little low for some domestic water systems) Most fittings for this use are rated at 300 psig which gives a safety factor just over twice the maximum pressure (125 psig max specified by most water systems)

I think these are great for a pex system but I would still solder most of my joints (if not all)

[Jack Feldmann]

I used a SB fitting to do a repair several years ago and have not had one problem with it since. Since its visible in my basement workshop, I have the opportunity to inspect it at will.
I have never seen water pressure any where close to 200 psi, so I feel pretty safe there too.
I'm not worried about the electrical concerns since I have PEX feeding the house, and the system is connected to a ground rod near the meter.

[Dwight Doane]

Pressure ratings of components in general should be 1.5 times or more than the maximum expected pressure . I have even had a water filter burst apart that was rated for 150 PSI . Just a little more on this it also has to be rated for the type of service. So taking a valve off the shelf at home depot might be rated for water but not for gas
Or steam (maybe more special services like oxygen or cryogenic)

[Dwight Doane]

Pressure ratings of components in general should be 1.5 times or more than the maximum expected pressure . I have even had a water filter burst apart that was rated for 150 PSI . Just a little more on this it also has to be rated for the type of service. So taking a valve off the shelf at home depot might be rated for water but not for gas
Or steam (maybe more special services like oxygen or cryogenic)

[Jack Feldmann]

Maximum expected pressure in a home is 80 psi.
Yes I know that much higher pressures are common, however, thats why regulators are made. The code calls for 80 psi max.

[Billy Stephens]

The code calls for 80 psi max.

Happy New Tear Jack,:)

*I think we are way past Code and are now in the Land of feelings.

[Bob Harper]

I do water heater and boiler replacements and have used SB's with ZERO problems. If the joint is improperly seated, you will know instantly, unlike a sweated joint. They can take moderate flexion without compromising the joint. They can get you out of a bind where the shutoff upstream is not holding and you need to do a 'wet tap' immediately. The valve can spin 360 on its axis and remain intact, which is good for some things and not so desirable for others such as expansion tanks and regulators. Nothing, included sweated copper, is perfect. Every home maintenance guy should carry a kit of SBs in case of damaged lines so you can effect emergency repairs.

As for the electrical bonding issue, it is my understanding that PEX makes for a lousy bond, too as does pvc/ cpvc. The problem comes in with hybrid systems where someone thinks they can bond to a nearby copper pipe without testing it. If you want to know about the integrity of a bond, isolate it from anything that can't take high voltage then test with a megger.

On the plus side, SBs carry a warranty, unlike more brass valves: http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/technical/water-treatment-manuals/SharkBite-Warranty.pdf

They also spent the money to get all the appropriate approvals: Certifications & Uses (http://www.sharkbite.com/how-to/sharkbite-plumbing-certifications-and-uses/)

I have seen some PEX joints leak and a lot of copper joints but never a SB once its made. You also don't have the creeping crude build up over time from flux left on copper. I recently found a badly corroded copper joint joint right over the draft hood of a DHW heater. The water leaking dripped right onto the elbow right off the hood. Both the ell and the hood fell apart in my hands. It almost killed then from a CO exposure. Death by flux. I've seen copper leaks from flux corrosion over electrical equipment causing shock hazards too. Then there is the ever fabulous growth of fungi in cold, damp dark places.

I think it is much ado about nothing.

[Jerry Peck]

As for the electrical bonding issue, it is my understanding that PEX makes for a lousy bond, too as does pvc/ cpvc. The problem comes in with hybrid systems where someone thinks they can bond to a nearby copper pipe without testing it. If you want to know about the integrity of a bond, isolate it from anything that can't take high voltage then test with a megger.
.
.
I think it is much ado about nothing.

Electrical bonding is far from "much ado about nothing - if it was "much ado about nothing" ... there would not be any requirements for bonding to start with.

I found this while reading the Sharkbite engineering data sheets while searching for information on testing they did for bonding (have not found any so far):

(underlining and bold are mine)

Applications
Tubing: Hard drawn copper pipe Type K, L and M and annealed Type M not to exceed 3/8 nominal complying with ASTM B 88, PEX tubing complying with ASTM F 876 or CSA B137.5, or CVPC tubing complying with ASTM D 2846 or CSA B137.6. SharkBite fittings are approved for installations above and below ground applications. Please consult with local code for final approval. Failure to comply with the above types of pipe or application could result in connection failures.

Seems that Sharkbite fittings are ONLY APPROVED FOR USE on the following:
- Hard drawn copper Types K, L, and M
- soft drawn (annealed) copper Type M NOT TO EXCEED 3/8" nominal
- PEX
- CPVC
- ... nothing in there about their use PB or other types of tubing, so if you find it on any other piping other than those above, it is definitely not "much ado about nothing".

[Bob Harper]

Electrical bonding is far from "much ado about nothing - if it was "much ado about nothing" ... there would not be any requirements for bonding to start with.

I found this while reading the Sharkbite engineering data sheets while searching for information on testing they did for bonding (have not found any so far):

(underlining and bold are mine)


Seems that Sharkbite fittings are ONLY APPROVED FOR USE on the following:
- Hard drawn copper Types K, L, and M
- soft drawn (annealed) copper Type M NOT TO EXCEED 3/8" nominal
- PEX
- CPVC
- ... nothing in there about their use PB or other types of tubing, so if you find it on any other piping other than those above, it is definitely not "much ado about nothing".


Jerry, how do you bond PEX? You know, we cannot idiot proof the world. At some point humans have to take responsibility for their actions. If you replace a valve on a metallic pipe that was bonded with a SB, then you must find an alternative means of bonding. It doesn't make the SB defective. It means you need to grow up and learn all the facts before using a product or suffer the consequences. If you cut a metallic pipe being bonded and it is carrying some current, you run the risk of electric shock. Where's the idiot-proofing in that?

I don't know why you're so hung up on what types of pipe SB is approved for. No valve is approved for every application. You must do your due diligence in every case. Why you're on this crusade is beyond me. If you want to require warnings at the SB bin in the home centers, why stop there? How about gas water heater installation, which has the highest probability of human injury from anything else in the store? So, I stand my my comments. You may continue with your paranoia.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, how do you bond PEX?

Bob, what do you not understand about bonding copper?


You know, we cannot idiot proof the world. At some point humans have to take responsibility for their actions.

Yep, and replacing or installing single wall vent where double or triple wall vent should be installed is much ado about nothing too - as you say, you can't idiot proof the world ... right?

How many fires is acceptable to you?

How many electrical shocks or electrocutions is acceptable to you?

It is all "much ado about nothing" ... to the point where YOU are not concerned about it - BUT, when it is something YOU are concerned about ... it is much ado about a big deal - does't work that way in real life ... just because it is not something that YOU are concerned about does NOT make it "much ado about nothing".

[Jerry Peck]

Page 4 states ELECTRICALLY CONTINUOUS http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_TechBrchr_201411.pdf

Billy,

I've contacted Sharkbite as I have not been able to find any US information that the Sharkbite fittings are listed for use as electrically continuous.

The fittings "may" be electrically continuous ... just not tested and listed as being electrically continuous - in the UK ... that may not matter, however, here in the US we like documentation and listing which can be traced back to testing which verifies that the fittings would be electrically continuous.

I'll update when I get additional information.

[Bob Harper]

Bob, what do you not understand about bonding copper?
Not a thing your majesty. It is the responsibility of the person installing the fitting to arrange for bonding. The fact that a SB does not provide an adequate bond does not in and of itself outlaw its use with copper.


Yep, and replacing or installing single wall vent where double or triple wall vent should be installed is much ado about nothing too - as you say, you can't idiot proof the world ... right?

How many fires is acceptable to you?

How many electrical shocks or electrocutions is acceptable to you?

Seriously? Those materials ALL carry the responsibility of the installer. Single walled pipe is unlisted with NO installation instructions. Don't talk down to me about how many fires or personal injuries are acceptable. In a perfect world (Heaven), there are none. However, we live on planet earth where things do go wrong and people do make poor choices. I see a lot of copper pipe systems where it is not properly bonded at a number of points from the appliances to the WH to the meter. Why don't we just outlaw copper pipe anyway? You cannot trust people to bond it properly even with sweated valves and joints. Or, better yet, just eradicate those pesky electrical appliances that are the root of the problem in the first place. Heck, if you live off the grid, I guess that's the only case where these fittings should be allowed. Triple walled vent? Who makes that, much less uses it and for what? Provide substantiation please.

How many people have been killed or seriously injured by SB fittings? Do you seriously want to compare them with venting failures which DO have significant rates of death, injury and fire? There is no comparison. You're all worked up again on one of your crusades. Please report back to us when you have heard from the CPSC and provide a copy of your evidence of actual losses and injuries.

If we're going to idiot-proof the world, the most effective way to do that is to eradicate the idiots. In the meantime, people are responsible for themselves. Homeowners are responsible to hire qualified, reputable contractors who pull permits to be inspected by qualified inspectors to take sufficient time to properly inspect work, etc., etc. but the reality is, that happens very rarely. Homeowners are allowed to make certain repairs and improvements on their own in a lot of cases and jurisdictions. What do you want-- total state control of every minute detail of our lives because we're too stupid to fend for ourselves? We see how competent the government is at running things.

There is a difference between adopting and complying with codes and standards versus absolute control over people's lives. I've never seen a single structure in my life that met the local codes 100%--have you? According to your logic, we should tear down every structure in the world and start over.

It is all "much ado about nothing" ... to the point where YOU are not concerned about it - BUT, when it is something YOU are concerned about ... it is much ado about a big deal - does't work that way in real life ... just because it is not something that YOU are concerned about does NOT make it "much ado about nothing".


Don't put words in my mouth Jerry. There is a Huge difference between being 'concerned' about an issue and being paranoid. I am cognizant of the issue and address it as I encounter it as I feel appropriate. However, it's none of your darned business how and what I do anymore than it is of mine to tell you how to run your life. I pick and choose things to get more aggresively concerned about as the probability of damage or injury along with the severity of that injury escalates. I use reason to guide my life and actions. You ought to try it for a change.

[Jerry Peck]

Don't put words in my mouth Jerry.

But you can put words and/or implications in my mouth?

YOU speak from your experience and knowledge and I speak from my experience and knowledge.

Saying/implying that bonding is for plastic piping is incredulous. Saying/implying that breaking the electrical continuity of copper piping is much ado about nothing is also incredulous.

That's why I compared it to something you have great knowledge in and would not accept in any way - but you missed that comparison too.

[Dwight Doane]

I want to piss in this contest too :dance:

I think the real issue is , where you take a copper system and put a shark bite fitting (^^^) in the copper line you create a semi insulated line that may or may not be bonded, this will lead no only to a potential of electrical shock but also to corrosion as often occurs with dissimilar metals.

The problem Shark bite has is they are not really educating the public as much as they should be - refering to local codes in their lititure is a bit on the weak side. They really should be addressing the issue of grounding/bonding at the point of sale in Home Depot. lowes - Local hardware store. I have used them mostly in Hotwater installations but those have direct grounds , also many of the hotwater heaters I replace have circulator pumps and mixing valves which are soldered in place.

But it really is about changing the properties (elecrically) which are a cause for concern. Yes this is not about a pex system this about copper systems that are all ready grounded,

Now - My second rant is - Sharke Bite does not really make it clear on displays these fittings are for use with water only - I have no clue if they are rated for any other use but I can see some handyman clown try to use them for gas - not sure they would be leak tight or if the seals are rated for gas use (never looked it up) but you never know what people might do

[Jerry Peck]

I received this yesterday (01-06-2015) in response to my inquiry about the current status of SharkBite fittings used on copper water piping systems and their continuity for bonding purposes:

Jerry,


We still currently have done no testing here in the US to approve them as being electrically continuous. We always recommend using a jumper when installing our SharkBite fittings to keep the ground continuity of copper pipe.


The copper pipe makes contact with the pipe stop inside the brass fitting, so the fitting most likely does conduct the electricity and ground through the fitting, but not to a very large extent.


Thanks,


Nick Newlin


Reliance Worldwide Corporation
Office of Sales & Technical Support
Home of SharkBite & Cash Acme Products
2727 Paces Ferry Road
Building Two, Suite 1800
Atlanta, GA 30339
FAQ's - SharkBite (http://www.sharkbite.com/faqs)
techsupport@rwc.com

[Garry Sorrells]

Thanks Jerry for the effort and follow up. Seems like it is a little odd that their (SB) instructions have no mention of bonding. http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_Inslltn_Instrctns_2014.pdf
The fact that you had to ask for the SB position makes one wounder what else is not mentioned.:confused: As always it is great to have someone from the company take/state a position.
Thanks again for the effort.:clap2:

Nick Newlin seems to be the one at SB that deals with this question. He had answered the same question on bonding/grounding in another forum back in March 2013. But I do wonder where you are to see a reference to grounding/bonding when using the SB fitting. This was what was posted:
"Just got a reply from Sharkbite

John,

Our SharkBite fittings will not conduct electricity as copper will. The stainless steel teeth and EPDM rubber O-ring compromise this. Please install a jumper if necessary.

Regards,

Nick Newlin"

In Jerry's reply Nick Newlin said:"...We always recommend using a jumper when installing our SharkBite fittings..." Which really does beg the question of where do they state their recommendations.

[Jerry Peck]

Garry,

The problem ... er ... reason, as I see it, is that SharkBite fittings are made for plumbers to install - and how many plumbers know much, if anything, about bonding requirements (until they receive a shock from lack of bonding).

It is the electrical contractors who place *one* clamp on a copper pipe and bond to it, and they are not aware of anything about the SharkBite fittings ... because the SharkBite fittings are for plumbers.

:(

[Dwight Doane]

Seems like it is a little odd that their (SB) instructions have no mention of bonding. http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/w...rctns_2014.pdf (http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_Inslltn_Instrctns_2014.pdf)
The fact that you had to ask for the SB position makes one wounder what else is not mentioned.:confused: As always it is great to have someone from the company take/state a position.

I have used these many times in the last year (great for emergency repairs) - That said ... I don't recall anything about the need to put a grounding jumper across the fitting - and I read the directions in depth that came with the fitting and then some. So I am surprised they even addressed that

[Ian Page]

This really is a big deal for Reliance Corp., I wonder if Nick has the authority to make this kind of determination. Without any consumer warning label, Reliance could be in a world of hurt....just think of the potential liability they are already exposed to with millions already installed by unknowing consumers. I smell Class Action...

[Raymond Wand]

This is from the UK.

http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_TechBrchr_201411.pdf

page 8
The cartridge ring is manufactured from 304 stainless steel to provide guaranteed electrical continuity.

Page 31
SharkBite fittings are TRaC certified to provide electrical continuity when used with Copper or Carbon Steel pipe with the exception of 10mm fittings.

[Jerry Peck]

This is from the UK.

As you said, that "is from the UK".

They apparently had testing done on the fittings made for the UK, but the fittings are different (at least in sizes, metric versus inch), and I fully anticipated that their reply to my inquiry for an update from my 2011 information was going to be their testing and listing for electrical continuity ... but it was just the opposite - install a bonding jumper over each SharkBite fitting to ensure electrical continuity for bonding.

I have not yet seen an entire water piping system (of any type, including copper) installed with the SharkBite fittings, typically what I see them used for is water heater replacements, and it is easy to bond across the two or three SharkBite fittings right at the water heater.

Yes, it would be a major problem for SharkBite fittings used on a concealed plumbing system because ALL of the points of attachment of the bonding jumpers ARE REQUIRED to be accessible ... yeppers, big problem there for a piping system which was intended to be concealed.

[Jerry Peck]

I wonder if Nick has the authority to make this kind of determination.


He IS from "Technical & Inside Sales Support", so I would say, yes, he has that authority.

I received this today after asking to make sure I could pass the information on: (I held off posting his first email last night and this morning until I received the email below).

Hey Jerry,


You may release the information and use it where needed.


Thanks,


Nick Newlin
Technical & Inside Sales Support
Reliance Worldwide Corporation| Office of Sales & Customer Support
2727 Paces Ferry Road | Building Two, Suite 1800 | Atlanta, Georgia 30339
Phone: 1-770-863-4081| Fax: 1-770-435-7369
Email: Nick.Newlin@cashacme.com

[Jerry Peck]

I have a newsletter out on it (and other newsletters about other issues): Inspectors’ Field Comments Newsletter© (http://jerrypeck.com/IFCN/IFCN.htm)

These newsletters are geared toward the 2008 NEC and Florida codes (which are based on the ICC codes) - these newsletters are sent to building officials, inspectors, plans examiners, and some architects and engineers around the Florida.

[Lon Henderson]

Thanks JP. Good info.

[Billy Stephens]

I received this yesterday (01-06-2015) in response to my inquiry about the current status of SharkBite fittings used on copper water piping systems and their continuity for bonding purposes:

Jerry,


We still currently have done no testing here in the US to approve them as being electrically continuous. We always recommend using a jumper when installing our SharkBite fittings to keep the ground continuity of copper pipe.


The copper pipe makes contact with the pipe stop inside the brass fitting, so the fitting most likely does conduct the electricity and ground through the fitting, but not to a very large extent.


Thanks,


Nick Newlin


Reliance Worldwide Corporation
Office of Sales & Technical Support
Home of SharkBite & Cash Acme Products
2727 Paces Ferry Road
Building Two, Suite 1800
Atlanta, GA 30339
FAQ's - SharkBite (http://www.sharkbite.com/faqs)
techsupport@rwc.com


Thanks Jerry for the effort and follow up. Seems like it is a little odd that their (SB) instructions have no mention of bonding. http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_Inslltn_Instrctns_2014.pdf
The fact that you had to ask for the SB position makes one wounder what else is not mentioned.:confused: As always it is great to have someone from the company take/state a position.
Thanks again for the effort.:clap2:

Nick Newlin seems to be the one at SB that deals with this question. He had answered the same question on bonding/grounding in another forum back in March 2013. But I do wonder where you are to see a reference to grounding/bonding when using the SB fitting. This was what was posted:
"Just got a reply from Sharkbite

John,

Our SharkBite fittings will not conduct electricity as copper will. The stainless steel teeth and EPDM rubber O-ring compromise this. Please install a jumper if necessary.

Regards,

Nick Newlin"

In Jerry's reply Nick Newlin said:"...We always recommend using a jumper when installing our SharkBite fittings..." Which really does beg the question of where do they state their recommendations.


This really is a big deal for Reliance Corp., I wonder if Nick has the authority to make this kind of determination. Without any consumer warning label, Reliance could be in a world of hurt....just think of the potential liability they are already exposed to with millions already installed by unknowing consumers. I smell Class Action...


Seems like it is a little odd that their (SB) instructions have no mention of bonding. http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/w...rctns_2014.pdf (http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_Inslltn_Instrctns_2014.pdf)
The fact that you had to ask for the SB position makes one wounder what else is not mentioned.:confused: As always it is great to have someone from the company take/state a position.

I have used these many times in the last year (great for emergency repairs) - That said ... I don't recall anything about the need to put a grounding jumper across the fitting - and I read the directions in depth that came with the fitting and then some. So I am surprised they even addressed that

Ira,Dwight,
page 2 last bullet points states consult your locale building codes for specific applications.
( no go on a Class Action or any $$$ )

The Fitting have been tested in UK and Approved.If the Company doesn't feel the need to pay for this Testing again for the United States Market and Trust me the Lawyers have covered all the bases for any potential Companty liability it's a simple business decision.

Any Liability Exposure would be with the Installer.
Proving Damages ( other than they weren't "Code Approved???) good luck.

[Jerry Peck]

The Fitting have been tested in UK and Approved.If the Company doesn't feel the need to pay for this Testing again for the United States Market and Trust me the Lawyers have covered all the bases for any potential Companty liability it's a simple business decision.

Any Liability Exposure would be with the Installer.
Proving Damages ( other than they weren't "Code Approved???) good luck.

SharkBite fittings have been tested and approved for "electrical continuity" for the *UK market*.

SharkBite fittings have NOT been tested or approved for "electrical continuity" for the USA market, and, apparently, the company DOES NOT feel that the UK approval is good for the USA market ... if the company thought that, then they WOULD NOT say to bond over each SharkBite fitting - but they did say to do precisely that.

While the installer would be names on the list of defendants ... you can rest assured that SharkBite (CASH ACME and Reliance Worldwide) would be on that list too (and probably at the top of the list of defendants as they are the "deep pockets" attorneys look for).

[Billy Stephens]

SharkBite fittings have been tested and approved for "electrical continuity" for the *UK market*.

SharkBite fittings have NOT been tested or approved for "electrical continuity" for the USA market, and, apparently, the company DOES NOT feel that the UK approval is good for the USA market ... if the company thought that, then they WOULD NOT say to bond over each SharkBite fitting - but they did say to do precisely that.

While the installer would be names on the list of defendants ... you can rest assured that SharkBite (CASH ACME and Reliance Worldwide) would be on that list too (and probably at the top of the list of defendants as they are the "deep pockets" attorneys look for).

As we all know anyone may "Sue" another for pretty much anything. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/us/ferguson-grand-juror-sues-for-right-to-speak-about-case.html?_r=0

Because someone may sue doesn't mean Plaintiff will prevail.

I didn't say "The Company thinks UK Approval is Good in US just they decided not to go to the expense to get another Approval for the United States Market.aka Business Decision.

Just What are these perceived damages you think this product that tells the installer to always check with locale codes for specific application is liable for?

A Proven Defect? Or a Locale Code Violation?

[Garry Sorrells]

When the SharkBite rep on direct questioning states that you need a jumper but the installation instructions have no mention of using a jumper for bonding/grounding continuity there does seem to be a dichotomy.

Sharkbite does not appear to want the issue in the public view. Stating "Always consult with local plumbing codes concerning specific applications" is the lawyers end run around speaking the bottom line truth.

Possibly the question was worded wrong. Maybe the question should have been; "Why does Sharkbite not state that a jumper is needed to maintain continuity of the grounding system? Granted they might get defensive and just not respond at all which would not surprise me.

In a country that has warnings posted on lawn mower decks to not place you hands under the deck while the mower is running and signs that hot coffee is hot, you would expect that the need for a jumper would be stated. Jeeees Sharkbite lists just about everything else in their instructions and applications. Aaaaaaaah go figure:confused:... or maybe I am just missing something:frusty:

[Jerry Peck]

Just What are these perceived damages you think this product that tells the installer to always check with locale codes for specific application is liable for?

A Proven Defect? Or a Locale Code Violation?

The same ones resulting in lawsuits against CSST manufacturers.

The same ones which resulted in lawsuits against drywall manufacturers.

The same ones which result in lawsuits against car manufacturers.

The same ones which ... the list is almost endless.

Think, Billy, think - the manufacturer does not have to specify tell people something which ends up being the opposite to get into trouble ... all the manufacturer has to do is provide a product which turns out to have a defect/design flaw/etc. ... something called "merchantability", "implied warranty", and "implied warranty of merchantability".

[Garry Sorrells]

For all of the jailhouse lawyers here is a rhetorical question.:pop2:

Why does Sharkbite not instruct that a jumper be used as part of their installation video??? They break the continuity of the copper pipe using PEX and fittings but make no mention of replacing continuity, no mention of checking local code and no mention to refer to written instructions or anything else.

How to Repair Burst Pipe – Frozen Pipe Repair with SharkBite

How to Repair Burst Pipe – Frozen Pipe Repair with SharkBite1:40 (http://www.sharkbite.com/how-to/how-to-repair-burst-pipe-frozen-pipe-repair-with-sharkbite/)
http://www.sharkbite.com/how-to/how-to-repair-burst-pipe-frozen-pipe-repair-with-sharkbite/

[Jerry Peck]

For all of the jailhouse lawyers here is a rhetorical question.:pop2:

Why does Sharkbite not instruct that a jumper be used as part of their installation video??? They break the continuity of the copper pipe using PEX and fittings but make no mention of replacing continuity, no mention of checking local code and no mention to refer to written instructions or anything else.

How to Repair Burst Pipe – Frozen Pipe Repair with SharkBite

http://www.sharkbite.com/how-to/how-to-repair-burst-pipe-frozen-pipe-repair-with-sharkbite/


Because, as I said in a previous post, they are selling "plumbing" fittings and "bonding" is "electrical". :)

[Billy Stephens]

This is from the UK.

http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_TechBrchr_201411.pdf

page 8
The cartridge ring is manufactured from 304 stainless steel to provide guaranteed electrical continuity.

Page 31
SharkBite fittings are TRaC certified to provide electrical continuity when used with Copper or Carbon Steel pipe with the exception of 10mm fittings.




Think, Billy, think - the manufacturer does not have to specify tell people something which ends up being the opposite to get into trouble ... all the manufacturer has to do is provide a product which turns out to have a defect/design flaw/etc. ... something called "merchantability", "implied warranty", and "implied warranty of merchantability".

I guess the Electricity Generated in Europe is different than the Stuff we use in the Good Ole US of A. ;)

[Garry Sorrells]

Because, as I said in a previous post, they are selling "plumbing" fittings and "bonding" is "electrical". :)

I agree that they are myopic. They instruct on modifying the system but fail to inform consequences. Really think it would be hard to run away from responsibility to mention consequences of their instruction video..

Maybe they need to get some of the YouTube posters to explain why they attempt cover themselves legally when they post How To videos.

But then SB is from the land of "OZ" 1999 isn't it.

[Dwight Doane]

I guess the Electricity Generated in Europe is different than the Stuff we use in the Good Ole US of A. ;)


True - it is three phase with an accent

[Raymond Wand]

Billy

I agree with you. The Trac certification may have recognition in North America. The Sharkbite fittings in UK/Europe are the same materials as used in North America Sharkbite fittings.

So is TRAC accepted in North America as it is in Europe where the electrical continuity of the fitting has been proven by the agency?

[Lon Henderson]

Last night, a buddy tested the continuity of a SB connection on an installation in his own house. Result was zero continuity.

Jerry's email from SB says that we should not expect continuity and now that we have that information, the default position going forward is (or should be) that SB installations don't provide adequate continuity. Frankly, the UK specs don't matter on our side of the pond since we now have SB's statement. In some installations, it doesn't matter, but where it does matter, we should note that in our reports.

[Dwight Doane]

JP - was it just you who suggested a bonding jumper - I have seen nothing in the shark bite literature that talks about that.

(I am not saying your wrong.) I question and challenge the fact they are indeed full time conductors since the SS bite rings are not bonded from one side to the other, The use of an o-ring can act as an insulator along with the plastic (synthetic) slave that disengages the bite ring. Unlike compression fittings (parker and swagelock) which actually compress a Ferrell on to the pipe and have a strong mechanical bond , I don't see that here

[Raymond Wand]

I tested several SB fittings on copper and got continuity.

[Jerry Peck]

JP - was it just you who suggested a bonding jumper - I have seen nothing in the shark bite literature that talks about that.

Dwight,

SharkBite recommended the jumpers in their email.

[Ian Page]

Because, as I said in a previous post, they are selling "plumbing" fittings and "bonding" is "electrical". :)

In which case, where would be the harm in a one liner instruction..."If the application is used in continuous metal water supply, consult with an electrician concerning a potential break in electrical bonding continuity"? Okay that was two lines...

Because, making that statement infers liability for the hundreds of thousands already installed, without warning. And, of course, opens the door real wide for litigation.

Jerry, you are correct, they are in the plumbing biz but by its very nature the product infringes, to some extent, on the 'lectrik biz also and as such SB would have to assume some liability IMO. I don't think they should bury their heads in the sand but it ain't my business, I don't hold stock, will advise clients accordingly and just wait for the law suit...

[Jerry Peck]

In which case, where would be the harm in a one liner instruction..."If the application is used in continuous metal water supply, consult with an electrician concerning a potential break in electrical bonding continuity"? Okay that was two lines...

Because, making that statement infers liability for the hundreds of thousands already installed, without warning. And, of course, opens the door real wide for litigation.

Jerry, you are correct, they are in the plumbing biz but by its very nature the product infringes, to some extent, on the 'lectrik biz also and as such SB would have to assume some liability IMO. I don't think they should bury their heads in the sand but it ain't my business, I don't hold stock, will advise clients accordingly and just wait for the law suit...

Ian,

The one liner would not remove them from liability, and, I agree that the one liner might raise questions for past installations, so they would require full disclosure and what needs to be done - actually, what they should do is have the SharkBite fittings for the US tested and, if they pass, then the empirical evidence would be that all previous SharkBite fittings were okay (provided no change in the manufacturing of the fittings had taken place which resulted in an altered electrical continuity path (changing from one type of brass to another would likely not raise questions, while changing the design of the grip ring so it made contact with the pipe and the brass better would likely raise questions).

Virtually every product made for construction interacts in some way with other products and other trades, thus no manufacturer should bury their heads in the sand of 'this is the only trade my product affects' and think that the rest of their ostrich body was not exposed to all others.

It's the proverbial "sticky wicket" for sure.

[Jack Feldmann]

I'm curious, do dielectric couplings come with warnings about continuity?

[Vern Heiler]

I'm curious, do dielectric couplings come with warnings about continuity?
Dielectric couplings are nipples lined with plastic the outside maintains the continuity.

[Garry Sorrells]

Dielectric couplings are nipples lined with plastic the outside maintains the continuity.

And the outside is typically Brass, sometimes SS.

[Garry Sorrells]

Curiosity raised. With a little rutting it seems that no one makes a comment about continuity here in the USA.

Mueller Proline Push-Fit Fittings
BrassPush-Fit
http://www.muellerindustries.com/uploads/pdf/MLT-201%20Brass%20Push%20Fit.pdf
Copper Push-Fit
http://www.muellerindustries.com/uploads/pdf/ProLine-Copper%20Push%20Fit.pdf

Pro Bite Push Fittings
ProBite ® Push Connect Plumbing Fittings and Valves (http://www.probite.com/push-fit-plumbing-training.htm#)
Install Instructions
http://www.probite.com/literature/probite_instructions_8X5pd.pdf

ProBite O-rings are easily removed using a
common O-ring pick, then easily replaced
by pushing a new O-ring back into the
exposed groove
http://www.probite.com/literature/sharkbite_vs_probite.pdf

A.Y. McDonald

Push-Fit Water Heater Connector (http://www.aymcdonald.com/en-US/Push-fit-water-heater-connector.html)
DATA page
http://www.aymcdonald.com/en-US/Component.Display.html?RefId=1026bc54-53c9-406f-a16e-7a8d2b8cf6a2

[Raymond Wand]

You've lost me; if a nipple is plastic lined how can there be continuity if the outside of the fitting is isolated via the plastic.

Also like I said I have four SB fittings and tested for continuity and got a positive reading. This is in line with what the UK certification has shown.

[Dwight Doane]

You've lost me; if a nipple is plastic lined how can there be continuity if the outside of the fitting is isolated via the plastic.

Also like I said I have four SB fittings and tested for continuity and got a positive reading. This is in line with what the UK certification has shown.


Raymond it might be in the strength of the continuity along with the resistance. I am not sure what the resistance of fitting is or what is considered in determining the resistance value. For example all wire has some resistance (even superconducting wire) while you or I can not measure it because our Ohm meters cost less than $ 100.00 and did not cost $10K for a super sensitive ohm meter what you consider continuity may not actually meet the US standard and may be considered more of a resister .

Ya and what is up with the conducting dialectic fittings that is like being dry in a wet pool

[Lon Henderson]

Also like I said I have four SB fittings and tested for continuity and got a positive reading. This is in line with what the UK certification has shown.
Maybe Canada gets UK sharkbites? Maybe it's hit and miss on continuity? Some here have reported continuity on tested samples, and some, like me, have reported a lack of continuity.

But at least in the US, Jerry's email should settle it for us as HIs. Even if you have found samples with continuity in the past, SB's official position is that we shouldn't expect continuity and therefore, when SBs are found in an installation where continuity is required, then we should write it up. If you test those installations and find continuity, you should still note that SB are not designed to provide continuity.

[Garry Sorrells]

You've lost me; if a nipple is plastic lined how can there be continuity if the outside of the fitting is isolated via the plastic.

Also like I said I have four SB fittings and tested for continuity and got a positive reading. This is in line with what the UK certification has shown.

The plastic nipple is what separates the dissimilar metals like steel and copper from touching each other. The outside is brass or SS which does make contact with the two pipes. Take a look at one in the form of an universal union : quick look for diagram / picture for you.
Dielectric Unions - Plumberologist (http://plumberologist.com/dielectric-unions/)
or
SCI: Dielectric Unions (http://www.smithcooper.com/catalogue/group/380)
www.smithcooper.com/catalogue/group/380


The reason you may have continuity:
If you push the copper pipe into the SB fitting and have it bottom out it will be making contact with the main brass body. It is held there by the SS retainer ring preventing the pipe from backing out. But if for some reason the pipe shifts then the contact will be broken. Maybe expansion/contraction, vibration or stress. Add to this the , for lack of better way to say it, the amount of continuity. Meaning how much will it conduct. A 20g wire has different potential capabilities than a 3g wire. Now it may be that in the UK the testing and certification is based on the perfect installation and connection. Which we all know is how the UK works, first time and every time perfect.

[Jerry Peck]

The email from SharkBite said that there "may" be continuity ... but that it will not conduct large amounts of current - which means that you "may" read continuity with a meter ... yet that same fitting would likely NOT serve the requirements needed for bonding out a ground fault.

[Raymond Wand]

Thanks to all!

[Jack Feldmann]

Dielectric couplings are nipples lined with plastic the outside maintains the continuity.

Head slap moment.

[Jerry Peck]

The plastic nipple is what separates the dissimilar metals like steel and copper from touching each other. The outside is brass or SS which does make contact with the two pipes. Take a look at one in the form of an universal union : quick look for diagram / picture for you.
Dielectric Unions - Plumberologist (http://plumberologist.com/dielectric-unions/)
or
SCI: Dielectric Unions (http://www.smithcooper.com/catalogue/group/380)
www.smithcooper.com/catalogue/group/380


The reason you may have continuity:
If you push the copper pipe into the SB fitting and have it bottom out it will be making contact with the main brass body. It is held there by the SS retainer ring preventing the pipe from backing out. But if for some reason the pipe shifts then the contact will be broken. Maybe expansion/contraction, vibration or stress. Add to this the , for lack of better way to say it, the amount of continuity. Meaning how much will it conduct. A 20g wire has different potential capabilities than a 3g wire. Now it may be that in the UK the testing and certification is based on the perfect installation and connection. Which we all know is how the UK works, first time and every time perfect.

There are two separate and distinct types:
- dielectric unions (see post above)
- dielectric nipples: MI-DE - Dielectric Nipples (http://www.mifab.com/Catalog/Counterline_and_Other_Products/MI-DE_-_Dielectric_Nipples/index.html)

Dielectric unions work by actually breaking the electrical continuity of the metal water piping and isolating the metal water piping from the water heater - dielectric unions require a bonding jumper to be installed from the cold water supply to the hot water out branch piping because the dielectric unions electrically isolate the water heater, and thus the hot water branch piping, from the cold water piping where the bond is attached.

Dielectric nipples work by maintaining the electrical continuity through the metal nipple, however, inside the nipple there is a plastic sleeve which breaks the continuity of the electrical connection to the water. Dielectric nipples do not require a bonding jumper from the cold water supply to the hot water out branch piping ... however:
- Many electrical inspectors require the bonding jumper anyway because when the water heater is replaced and a dielectric union is installed to make it easier to remove and replace the water heater, the jumper prevents the bonding of the hot water branch piping from being broken.
- Other electrical inspector (most?) require the cold to hot bonding jumper because the don't know what is going to be installed when the water heater is installed (the bonding is usually looked at during Electrical Rough Inspection and the water heater is not installed yet.
- Some electrical inspectors do not require the cold to hot bonding jumper,
- - possibly because they are not aware of the potential for losing the bond to the hot water piping (I have seen too many electrical inspectors in this category),
- - possibly because they just don't think about it, and/or
- - possibly because they don't care (I have seen too many electrical inspectors in this category too).

[Lon Henderson]

- Some electrical inspectors do not require the cold to hot bonding jumper,
- - possibly because they are not aware of the potential for losing the bond to the hot water piping (I have seen too many electrical inspectors in this category),
- - possibly because they just don't think about it, and/or
- - possibly because they don't care (I have seen too many electrical inspectors in this category too).
But.....there is no NEC requirement for a hot/cold bonding wire.

[Jerry Peck]

But.....there is no NEC requirement for a hot/cold bonding wire.

Ah, but there is.

ALL metal water piping is required to be bonded ... the NEC does NOT say metal "cold" water piping.

:)

[Lon Henderson]

Ah, but there is.

ALL metal water piping is required to be bonded ... the NEC does NOT say metal "cold" water piping.

:)
I don't find anything in the NEC saying that a water heater breaks piping continuity and requiring a jumper across the hot and cold water lines.

Maybe it's "best practice" but that's different than required.

[Jerry Peck]

I don't find anything in the NEC saying that a water heater breaks piping continuity and requiring a jumper across the hot and cold water lines.

Maybe it's "best practice" but that's different than required.

Likewise, you won't find anything in the NEC which says that if the first receptacle in the circuit has a GFCI which is wired as bypass instead of feed through, that the receptacles downstream have to have a GFCI device installed.

The NEC simply states that the receptacles require GFCI protection, not what it takes to achieve it ... just like the NEC simply states that metal water piping is required to be bonded, not what it takes to achieve it.

Seems like recentlty, and more and more, I am seeing posts where common sense is being ignored and the attitude that if the codes do not specifically name each and every item - then the codes do not apply ... like in this case where I pointed out that the NEC requires ALL metal water piping to be bonded - then someone tries to say that if the bond is broken, the now un-bonded metal water piping doesn't need to be bonded ...Really?

Where has common sense in what 'metal water piping is required to be bonded' means?

If the metal water piping bond is broken 'metal water piping is required to be bonded' means that, using whatever means is necessary, 'metal water piping is required to be bonded' ... not just "some" of the metal water piping ... "all" of the metal water piping is required to be bonded.

[John Kogel]

I guess the Electricity Generated in Europe is different than the Stuff we use in the Good Ole US of A. ;)


True - it is three phase with an accentCorrect me if I'm wrong,
in the UK, household power is 230 volt single-phase.

[Garry Sorrells]

Correct me if I'm wrong,
in the UK, household power is 230 volt single-phase.


Here is a list(toward bottom) of countries.
Mains electricity by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country)



Uited Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)

230 V[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country#cite_note-34)
50 Hz



A little more something-something for you.
http://www.twothirtyvolts.org.uk/pdfs/site-info/Explanation_230Volts.pdf

[Garry Sorrells]

.........
Seems like recentlty, and more and more, I am seeing posts where common sense is being ignored .............

Maybe they are preparing to run for office. 2016 is just around the corner. Run F:boink:orest run....

[Lon Henderson]

Seems like recentlty, and more and more, I am seeing posts where common sense is being ignored and the attitude that if the codes do not specifically name each and every item - then the codes do not apply ... like in this case where I pointed out that the NEC requires ALL metal water piping to be bonded - then someone tries to say that if the bond is broken, the now un-bonded metal water piping doesn't need to be bonded ...Really?

I agree with your comment about missing common sense at this forum.

I'm guilty of failing to exercise common sense occasionally, but only occasionally. However, I am very good at finding and stating the obvious. And obviously, if the authors of the NEC, in their hundred or so years of writing codes, considered the water heater to be a major problem with metal piping continuity, then they would have addressed it. Lord knows they find plenty of minor things to put in the book, so if this issue doesn't rise to the level of their attention, then it must fall somewhere below minor. I don't find your example about GFCIs to be analogous. The NEC finds it necessary to spell out how many things are to be done when and where electricians have managed to do them wrong. So code and, arguably, common sense don't require a bonding jumper between the hot and cold metal pipes above the water heater. Your explanation assumes that a water heater breaks the bond, but the NEC obviously disagrees. It may be best practice but code is satisfied without the bond jumper unless specified differently in your area.

And for us as HIs, it's not a defect worthy of writing up when we fail to see that jumper, in most installations. But as HIs, we should know when a jumper is required and that's why the discussion about SBs has been worthwhile.

[Jerry Peck]

And obviously, if the authors of the NEC, in their hundred or so years of writing codes, considered the water heater to be a major problem with metal piping continuity, then they would have addressed it.

Huh?

No one has said anything about a water heater being considered a major problem with metal water piping continuity.

When dielectric nipples are used, and in earlier times, when non-dielectric nipples were used, there is no, and was not, any electrical continuity problem.

The only electrical continuity "problem" is when one installs dielectric UNIOINS.

No code can, or even tries to, address each and every possible and/or potential issue which may arise by someone installing something that person is not fully aware of or not aware of the implications of the installation of said "something".

What do you NOT understand about the following? (bold, underlining, italic, red is mine for highlighting)
- 250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
- - (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
- - - (1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).
- - - (2) Buildings of Multiple Occupancy. In buildings of multiple occupancy where the metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure for the individual occupancies is metallically isolated from all other occupancies by use of nonmetallic water piping, the metal water piping system(s) for each occupancy shall be permitted to be bonded to the equipment grounding terminal of the panelboard or switchboard enclosure (other than service equipment) supplying that occupancy. The bonding jumper shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.122, based on the rating of the overcurrent protective device for the circuit supplying the occupancy.
- - - (3) Multiple Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s). The metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the building or structure disconnecting means enclosure where located at the building or structure, to the equipment grounding conductor run with the supply conductors, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.66, based on the size of the feeder or branch circuit conductors that supply the building. The bonding jumper shall not be required to be larger than the largest ungrounded feeder or branch circuit conductor supplying the building.

Lon,

The lack of common sense is showing again - what do you NOT understand in this:

"(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to ... "

That does NOT say "parts of" or "some of", it says "metal water piping system(s)" ... "shall be bonded" ...

????? :confused: It's not rocket science stuff "metal water piping" ... ALL, not some or part ... "shall be bonded" ... shall, not maybe or if you want to ...

[Lon Henderson]

JP, few put on blinders and wear them with the zeal that you do. I have led your horse to the water and that is all that I can do or even want to do.

[Jerry Peck]

JP, few put on blinders and wear them with the zeal that you do. I have led your horse to the water and that is all that I can do or even want to do.

Lon,

You still have not pointed to the part which says ... or even implies ... that ONLY PART OF, SOME OF, the metal water piping is required to be bonded - which apparently is your position.

(deleted paragraph - no need to go here just because someone is unwilling to use common sense or learn)

When your common sense kicks in and you finally read what the code is saying, and realize that it is not saying what you think it is, then, and only then, will the light come on and show you the way.

[Dwight Doane]

So now I am really confused

So if a system has pex or some other synthetic that is approved and non metalic does that mean every faucet needs to be grounded ? if so how (sorry I am really not up on the use of plastics for domestic use )

:frusty:

[Jerry Peck]

So now I am really confused

So if a system has pex or some other synthetic that is approved and non metalic does that mean every faucet needs to be grounded ? if so how (sorry I am really not up on the use of plastics for domestic use )

:frusty:

Is PEX or other synthetic piping a "metal" water piping system? :D

So, if the PEX or other synthetic piping system is not a "metal" water piping system ... who is saying anything about bonding those "nonmetallic" piping systems? :confused: (Oops, gave the answer to the first question away ... :welcome: )

So, you really aren't confused, are you?

[Lon Henderson]

Lon,

You still have not pointed to the part which says ... or even implies ... that ONLY PART OF, SOME OF, the metal water piping is required to be bonded - which apparently is your position.

(deleted paragraph - no need to go here just because someone is unwilling to use common sense or learn)

When your common sense kicks in and you finally read what the code is saying, and realize that it is not saying what you think it is, then, and only then, will the light come on and show you the way.
I'll respond but I'll try hard not to respond in kind. Call it the kinder, gentler me......

First of all, I can't point to something in the NEC that isn't addressed and that is the point of what I've said...repeatedly. We've both made assumptions. You've made the assumption that a water heater breaks the continuity in a metal piping system and the NEC requires a jumper to satisfy their requirement for bonding the metal piping. I've made the assumption that the NEC doesn't agree with your assumption or find this to be a significant concern, or they would have specifically addressed it. The NEC specifically describes the "hows" and "whats" throughout whenever it thinks there is a need. How they specifically and painfully describe how to single lug neutrals in the service panel comes to mind as an example.

I've done some research into this and basically, the division in opinions mirrors our little debate. Some agree with you and others with me; that the NEC doesn't address this issue specifically and that while a jumper may be a best practice, it isn't a default requirement in the NEC. To support your opinion, I found a white paper from a UL engineer describing how changes in plumbing practices make a hot/cold jumper necessary though he admitted that the NEC doesn't address this beyond the general requirement that you point to. I might add, that considering the divergence in opinion over this, that the NEC should specifically address it.

Which is likely why some AHJs address this more specifically such as New Jersey. Around here, none of our AHJs require it although I see a jumper about 10% of the time.

All of this brings up a question for any reading this thread. Do any of you check for continuity between the hot and cold metal lines?

In any event, readers of this thread can determine who's common sense has kicked in and we can once again agree to disagree although as heated as you've tried to make this debate, we are barely apart on it.

Dwight: I'll try to answer your question minus any cheekiness. PEX doesn't need bonding because it can't be energized by a short into it or lightning strike. The bond where the metal supply line comes in from the tap is sufficient to satisfy NEC.

[Raymond Wand]

Lon,

Do I check for continuity between hot and cold? No I do not, and I am not about to. Nor am I going to tell clients that a jumper cable should be installed when SB fittings.

[Dwight Doane]

I am trying to follow the logic of the need for metal piping to be bonded (if it does and to what extent) this is about logic and reason more than code.

I understand that it was common place to ground the electrical system to the water main because it was a metal pipe that ran through the ground - great grounding rod

I understand that grounding metal water lines reduces corrosion

----------------

So today we have water systems that come into buildings in Plastic pipe (no ground)

we have systems that can be broken by a mix of plastic pipe and metal

Grounding all metal in a plumbing system makes sense from a corrosion point of view , Possible electricution point of view as well. So I guess are we headded for trouble down the road - is there a hazzard from taking a bath in a tube that is electrically isolated (not grounded) is it possible for the water to gain potential energy ?


Hummmmmmmm

[Jim Luttrall]

I am trying to follow the logic of the need for metal piping to be bonded (if it does and to what extent) this is about logic and reason more than code.

I understand that it was common place to ground the electrical system to the water main because it was a metal pipe that ran through the ground - great grounding rod

I understand that grounding metal water lines reduces corrosion

----------------

So today we have water systems that come into buildings in Plastic pipe (no ground)

we have systems that can be broken by a mix of plastic pipe and metal

Grounding all metal in a plumbing system makes sense from a corrosion point of view , Possible electricution point of view as well. So I guess are we headded for trouble down the road - is there a hazzard from taking a bath in a tube that is electrically isolated (not grounded) is it possible for the water to gain potential energy ?


Hummmmmmmm
Bonding requirement has NOTHING to do with corrosion prevention.

Bonding requirement is from the electrical section of the code and is required for electrical safety.

All metallic pipe or structural steel is required to be bonded to reduce the risk of electrical shock.

The metal water pipe has been traditionally used as THE (or at least one of the) grounding electrodes to ground the building electrically.

[Jerry Peck]

I
You've made the assumption that a water heater breaks the continuity in a metal piping system and the NEC requires a jumper to satisfy their requirement for bonding the metal piping.

Lon,

Likewise, a kinder and gentler post ...

I now see your problem ... at some point you quit reading my posts and began replying based on what you wanted to say.

If you had been actually reading my posts, you would have seen that *I* have not said that the water breaks the bond - in fact, you would have seen where I said the opposite of that.

Go back and actually*read* my posts ... then we can finish this educational class on bonding of metal water piping.

[Lon Henderson]

I am trying to follow the logic of the need for metal piping to be bonded (if it does and to what extent) this is about logic and reason more than code.

I understand that it was common place to ground the electrical system to the water main because it was a metal pipe that ran through the ground - great grounding rod

I understand that grounding metal water lines reduces corrosion

is there a hazzard from taking a bath in a tube that is electrically isolated (not grounded) is it possible for the water to gain potential energy ?

We are not talking about the service ground bond to the metal plumbing. Corrosion is not a problem prevented by a bonding jumper. If water was sufficient to carry any errant current, then bonding would not be needed. The conductivity of water is dependent on dissolved minerals and salts in it. Here our water has high conductivity but in other parts of the country it can have very poor conductivity. If the tub is fully isolated, then there is little potential shock hazard (no place for the current to go).

[Jerry Peck]

we have systems that can be broken by a mix of plastic pipe and metal

There should not be any metal water piping systems broken by plastic pipe - when plastic pipe is used to repair a section of metal pipe, the section of plastic pipe should be bonded around (bond clamp on the metal piping near the plastic pipe with a bonding jumper going between the two bonding clamps).

[quote[Possible electricution point of view
.
.
is there a hazzard from taking a bath in a tube that is electrically isolated (not grounded) is it possible for the water to gain potential energy ? [/QUOTE]

It Is possible, and has occurred often enough to be addressed in the code, that the metal water piping becomes energized. Bonding the metal water piping to ground shunts the current back to ground, enough of a connection to fully energize the metal water piping and the breakers will trip off. Not a connection which fully energizes the metal water piping enough to trip the breaker and one could still get a shock, with the metal water piping being the better conductor in the parallel circuit (the person/the metal piping) the metal water piping will take most of the hit.

Yes, it is a hazard to have the metal water piping isolated from ground as that allows the person to become the one and only ground fault path to clear the fault ... likely outcome is electrocution of the person.

[Lon Henderson]

Lon,
I now see your problem ... at some point you quit reading my posts and began replying based on what you wanted to say.
Funny that you would say that, because I've been thinking that you are reading things into my comments that I haven't said.


If you had been actually reading my posts, you would have seen that *I* have not said that the water breaks the bond - in fact, you would have seen where I said the opposite of that.
I think you meant to say water heater instead of water.


Go back and actually*read* my posts ... then we can finish this educational class on bonding of metal water piping.
I did go back and re-read them. I don't see anything that changes any of my comments. At the risk of being in repeat mode, I'll restate my point and attempt clarification. A bonding jumper between hot and cold metal lines is not a default requirement in the NEC. It's probably a best practice for the reasons that you've stated, but unless a break in continuity is demonstrated (your point about dialectic unions is good) we should not by default call out as a defect a missing hot to cold jumper unless you are in an area that has a different standard.

[Dwight Doane]

So this is kind of what I am getting at here let us say we have the following conditions

a house with the plumbing being pex and PVC

You have cast iron fixtures (say an old claw foot tub and antique sink (porcelin over cast)

I am trying to understand the code JP and put real life into vision here.

So now we have real fixutures with no grounding lug on any part of them - potential for energy - high mineral salts in water

outlets have GFI

Where is the electric shock going to come from ?

lightning ? , a light fixture with improper grounding - maybe an electric water heater that isn't properly grounded or ground wire corroded away ? even static electricity (yes potentials can get high enough to kill)

- I know , I am being picky here but why not - I can see this happening , something to keep an eye out for - we all have seen stupidity on many levels

is a plumber required to abide by the electrical code ?
is the electrician required to make sure the plumbing is grounded ?

[Jim Luttrall]

Metal plumbing fixtures are not required to be bonded, metal piping is.

There is very little risk of shock from your scenario, the risk is from metal piping systems, gas, water, air, steam, conduit, etc.
Since pipe systems by their nature begin in one area and travel distances, they are subject to accidental or incidental scenarios that could energize the pipe system, the solution is to bond the pipe.
There is also the risk of lightening or nearby lightening that can induce voltage onto the pipe systems as well as structural steel.
Forget the water, metal fixtures, corrosion, the point is to reduce the danger of shock on metal pipe and structural metal by ensuring it is grounded.

Electricians do bonding but plumbers are responsible for systems they install so they might be named in the lawsuit also!

[Garry Sorrells]

I have to admit that the more that interjected into the question of bonding the more obtuse the question becomes and I think for no reason.

Let me try to intercede since I do not have a camel in this discussion diversion.

1st system bonding is directed to metal pipe systems. If it is PEX or CPVC then maintaining the bond continuity of the pipe does not apply...PERIOD

If it is a copper(steel, brass, gold,etc.) pipe run system. The copper pipe is to keep it's continuity through the entire system of the pipe. If at some point in the system there is break in the pipe that makes it no longer a continuous run of pipe such as making a 1/32 inche or 2 foot splice using PEX or any other non metal, then the copper pipe needs a jumper to connect the start and stop of the splice or disruption of continuity..

If you have a hot water heater, metal pipe system, it is advisable (some places mandatory) to jump across the hot and cold pipes. Because it is possible that only the cold water input side is bonded and the fitting at the water heater may break that bond to the hot water side output. It is insurance on the bonding being continuous. If the hot water line (hot side) is bonded somewhere else to the cold water side then the jumper at the hot water heater may not be needed for practical purposes yet may be required for local code. Why, because they say so...

What is the probability for the metal line to be energized???? Does not matter, since the code trumps the question. They say it is to be bonded and bonded it has to be. Kinda like GOD speaking to you, are you going to argue with the higher authority ??????:frusty: that makes the rules. Think not...

Steel tub, fixtures connected to a PEX system are not part of the continuous bond requirement. Apples and oranges. Where are they going to be energized from is also not part of the the issue.

The requirement is the requirement. You have to take it for what it is and not what it might be. Not what makes sense to you as it should be, nor what you can find fault with its' wording.

[Garry Sorrells]

We use (myself included) the terms bonding and grounding interchangeably. When in fact they really have two different interpretations. Even though the codes will mix them together there is a difference. Not to start an argument just a thought of interest to ponder.

For the interested a little something to look at:
Grounding and Bonding — Part 1 of 3Grounding and Bonding ? Part 1 of 3 | Code Basics content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine (http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/grounding-and-bonding-part-1-3)
Most power quality and safety issues in electrical installations arise from misapplication of the grounding and bonding requirements of Art. 250. One common problem is installers ground where they should bond.
While the NEC provides clear descriptions of grounding and bonding in Art. 100, the words are often misused in the various articles. Typically, the error involves saying “grounding” instead of “bonding.” This error is even in nomenclature such as “equipment grounding conductor.” You should not be grounding your load side equipment. You should be bonding it. ….
Grounding and Bonding — Part 2 of 3 Grounding and Bonding ? Part 2 of 3 | Code Basics content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine (http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/grounding-and-bonding-part-2-3) One of the revisions to the 2011 NEC involves a new definition for a common term: bonding jumper, supply-side. A supply side bonding jumper is a conductor on the supply side or within a service or separately derived system to ensure the electrical conductivity between metal parts required to be electrically connected ….

[Lon Henderson]

We use (myself included) the terms bonding and grounding interchangeably.
I used to make that mistake, but this forum cured me of that.:D

[Jerry Peck]

At the risk of being in repeat mode, I'll restate my point and attempt clarification. A bonding jumper between hot and cold metal lines is not a default requirement in the NEC.

I will repeat myself too ... no one has said it was a default requirement.

It only becomes a requirement when dielectric unions are installed - but again, I am repeating myself as I said that before - because dielectric unions actually break the electrical continuity through the unions (said that before too).

With dielectric nipples, on the other hand, the electrical continuity is not broken (but I said that before too)

The default NEC requirement is (and I've said this before too) is that "metal water piping systems" are required to be bonded, and that if ANYTHING breaks that electrical bonding continuity ... ANYTHING ... (water heater fittings - think dielectric unions - or SharkBite fittings or ANYTHING) then a bonding jumper is required to be installed (unless you come up with some other way to make the electrical continuity continuous throughout the system.

Seems like maybe it was you who added in about a water heater breaking the continuity????


It's probably a best practice for the reasons that you've stated, but unless a break in continuity is demonstrated (your point about dialectic unions is good) we should not by default call out as a defect a missing hot to cold jumper unless you are in an area that has a different standard.

Well, looks like you are finally getting to where I've been trying to lead you.

[Lon Henderson]

Well, looks like you are finally getting to where I've been trying to lead you.
I have never changed my position, but maybe you finally read what I wrote. In any event, this poor dead horse doesn't have enough left to kick and with this post, I'm done with it.

[Loren Sanders Sr.]

Metal plumbing fixtures are not required to be bonded, metal piping is.

There is very little risk of shock from your scenario, the risk is from metal piping systems, gas, water, air, steam, conduit, etc.
Since pipe systems by their nature begin in one area and travel distances, they are subject to accidental or incidental scenarios that could energize the pipe system, the solution is to bond the pipe.
There is also the risk of lightening or nearby lightening that can induce voltage onto the pipe systems as well as structural steel.
Forget the water, metal fixtures, corrosion, the point is to reduce the danger of shock on metal pipe and structural metal by ensuring it is grounded.

Electricians do bonding but plumbers are responsible for systems they install so they might be named in the lawsuit also!

Jim I have a question. Aren't most connectors for water heaters isolated by the plastic between the tubing and the connector nut and the rubber seal inside the 3/4" connector nut?

[Jim Luttrall]

Jim I have a question. Aren't most connectors for water heaters isolated by the plastic between the tubing and the connector nut and the rubber seal inside the 3/4" connector nut?
Possibly, depending on the connector brand... What is the point of your question?

[Loren Sanders Sr.]

Possibly, depending on the connector brand... What is the point of your question?

Doesn't the plastic and rubber isolate and insulate and therefore prevent bonding through the water heater connectors?

[Jim Luttrall]

Doesn't the plastic and rubber isolate and insulate and therefore prevent bonding through the water heater connectors?
Yes they would but again we don't bond the water heater, we bond the pipe with the GEC clamp on the water pipe.
The heater is grounded with the electrical supply. The only thing not grounded then is the 18" or so of the flex connectors (If both ends are isolated as you suggest). 18" flex connectors that are exposed at the top of the heater are very unlikely to become accidentally energized but bond them if you like.

[Max Meier]

Billy

I agree with you. The Trac certification may have recognition in North America. The Sharkbite fittings in UK/Europe are the same materials as used in North America Sharkbite fittings.

So is TRAC accepted in North America as it is in Europe where the electrical continuity of the fitting has been proven by the agency?

What I noticed, but nobody mentioned in this thread, is that the European Sharkbite fittings appear to be made of completely different materials and constructed differently. Note element "C" ("304 Stainless Steel Cartridge Ring") on page 8 in www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_TechBrchr_201411.pdf (http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_TechBrchr_201411.pdf) . Also note that on all pictures in the brochure, there is a silver color (stainless steel) ring visible. I have never seen that on the Sharkbite fittings in the U.S.

The European fittings appear to be made explicitly for electrical continuity, while for the U.S. fittings they recommend jumping them. The question arises why they don't sell the same in the U.S. as in Europe, which would once and for all resolve the issue of unsuspecting homeowners and contractors breaking the electrical bonding of their metal water pipes. Given the high price of Sharkbites, I can't believe they would assume the associated liability and limited applicability of their fittings because of the cost of the minimal amount of additional steel needed vs. plastic.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

Are Shark Bite push connectors acceptable by any local code authority?

As well, I thought someone, Jerry's name comes to mind, did a resistance test to confirm electrical continuity to ground on a copper pipe with a Shark-Bite connection or am I mistaken?

Either or, a jumper at the connection would just make sense.

[Chris Jackson]

JP - was it just you who suggested a bonding jumper - I have seen nothing in the shark bite literature that talks about that.

(I am not saying your wrong.) I question and challenge the fact they are indeed full time conductors since the SS bite rings are not bonded from one side to the other, The use of an o-ring can act as an insulator along with the plastic (synthetic) slave that disengages the bite ring. Unlike compression fittings (parker and swagelock) which actually compress a Ferrell on to the pipe and have a strong mechanical bond , I don't see that here

I tried a few SB fittings on copper and got progression.

[Jerry Peck]

I tried a few SB fittings on copper and got progression.

Did you look at the manufacturer's information on it?

https://www.sharkbite.com/sites/default/files/2019-12/sharkbite-installation-guide-2019.pdf

Did you scroll down to the bottom of page 6?

(I doubt it, otherwise you likely wouldn't have posted that. While that may seem sarcastic, it's meant to be an indicator to you to read the installation instructions of things you install instead of making presumptions - especially on things which can injure or kill you.)

[Dom D'Agostino]

I doubt it, otherwise you likely wouldn't have posted that.

He's a link dropper, not even interested in the actual topic, I'm sure.

[Jerry Peck]

He's a link dropper, not even interested in the actual topic, I'm sure.

Dom,

I didn't even look at that - I suspect you are correct (at least they posted something related to the topic, good bait - I took it hook, line, and sinker). :( :)

[Gunnar Alquist]

Dom,

I didn't even look at that - I suspect you are correct (at least they posted something related to the topic, good bait - I took it hook, line, and sinker). :( :)

I would have done the same, but you beat me to it. Thanks for diving in front of the bullet for me Jerry!

[ROBERT YOUNG]

As for bonding. ... This is from the manufacture.
SharkBite Grounding on Copper Pipe
When connecting a SharkBite Universal fitting to a copper piping system, install a copper jumper cable to ensure proper grounding. SharkBite Universal fittings are not an electrically continuous fitting.

[Jerry Peck]

As for bonding. ... This is from the manufacture.
SharkBite Grounding on Copper Pipe
When connecting a SharkBite Universal fitting to a copper piping system, install a copper jumper cable to ensure proper grounding. SharkBite Universal fittings are not an electrically continuous fitting.

That's from the manufacturer because I kept having them put it in writing that, here in the states at least, SharkBite fittings have not been tested for, not approved for, and not listed for, bonding in metallic water piping systems.

They finally, after several years, put it in their installation instructions - however, as you said, they don't make an effort to let users know, the user has to look for it.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

That's from the manufacturer because I kept having them put it in writing that, here in the states at least, SharkBite fittings have not been tested for, not approved for, and not listed for, bonding in metallic water piping systems.

They finally, after several years, put it in their installation instructions - however, as you said, they don't make an effort to let users know, the user has to look for it.

Morning, Jerry. Hope this post finds you and your loved ones well and in good spirits considering what the world has encountered and how your commander and chief has reacted to the pandemic, which does effect neighboring countries. Hopefully these issue, the pandemic and your commander and chief, will all be sorted out by next year, or sooner hopefully. Please. Anyone up there. Listen to our prayers!;)

Bonding and Shark Bite have been discussed numerous times on InspectionNews and other Home Inspection/Home Inspector Association message boards.
I know I have asked the bonding question to have had mixed messages. Finally the manufacturer spells it out! Bond strap required in metal pipes.

[david shapiro]

if the authors of the NEC, in their hundred or so years of writing codes, considered the water heater to be a major problem with metal piping continuity, then they would have addressed it.
it's not a defect worthy of writing up when we fail to see that jumper, in most installations. But as HIs, we should know when a jumper is required and that's why the discussion about SBs has been worthwhile.

My perception of the NEC process differs. (I've sent NFPA lots of input over the years, some acted upon, most of course rejected/"resolved.") If a requirement is addressed by the NEC--and I include the actions implicit in fulfilling a requirement such as bonding all metallic water pipes other than the short, isolated section feeding an individual fixture--if there are problems the most that might be added is an Informational Note. This is precisely because the NEC is so large and detailed. It does not go into more detail than necessary partly to spare wordage and partly to avoid perceived exceptionalism.

Not being a HI, just someone Maryland HIs call on when they see iffy electrical issues, I can't say what should or should not be in your reports. I myself always would raise a question, in writing, if I saw a Sharkbite (TM) on metal water piping. If I saw a different brand of push-in, I'd check my notes. At least one competitor's engineer told me explicitly that they do maintain electrical continuity.

[david shapiro]

Given the high price of Sharkbites, I can't believe they would assume the associated liability and limited applicability of their fittings because of the cost of the minimal amount of additional steel needed vs. plastic.

I talked with someone in electrical manufacturing about the problems we have in making out the data they are required to to include on their product.

Here's what I was told, Max. Originally it was on a glued label. Some bright person realized they could save the money this cost by embossing the information into the black plastic and rolling a minuscule amount of paint/dye on it, rather than printing and gluing a separate label. Then another bright person realized they could save a little more money by skipping the step and leaving it black-on-black. All compliant--the information was still there.

We're talking a fraction of a penny, in a product that cost several dollars, or tens of dollars.