Is This Aluminum Wiring?

[Kyle Montgomery]

Inspected a home today and I think it might have aluminum branch wiring but I am not 100% sure.

The reason I am not positive is because the vast majority of the box is obviously copper but there are a select few breakers that look aluminum (however I know they make coated wiring that kind of looks aluminum even though it isn't) and because the diameter still looks 14 gauge and not 12 gauge but I only eyeballed it.

This home had a lot of shoddy DIY work and I am thinking he added aluminum wiring to the bottom of the box for an addition in the basement and I just want to be sure it's not just some type of coated 14 gauge copper before I advise my client.314473144831449

[JeffGHooper]

Yes it is.

And those are 20 amp breakers so it better not be 14.

[Rick Cantrell]

Looks like aluminum wiring to me

[Jack Feldmann]

Looks like aluminum to me. You should always look at the neutral bus bar, its easier to tell if its tinned copper there.

Jeff said, "And those are 20 amp breakers so it better not be 14." - Actually they would need to be #10 I believe for a 20 amp.

[JeffGHooper]

Looks like aluminum to me. You should always look at the neutral bus bar, its easier to tell if its tinned copper there.

Jeff said, "And those are 20 amp breakers so it better not be 14." - Actually they would need to be #10 I believe for a 20 amp.

He said he eyeballed it at 14. I agreed, needs to be 10 AWG

[Kyle Montgomery]

Thanks I thought it was aluminum and yes it looks like 14 gauge but not sure, its very DIY in the basement and they all go to unfinished strapping without drywall in the basement I am going to recommend it all be removed and if the client wishes to finish the basement work to have it done by a licensed electrician with permits.

[Raymond Wand]

Also check the sheathing, as it may be a further clue that its alu. wire.

[Trent Tarter]

It looks like aluminum to me. When I find tin dipped copper it's usually cloth sheathed and in homes built before 1950. When in doubt I turn off the breaker and pull the wire to look at the bare end.

[Rick Cantrell]

I don't think 14ga aluminum was even made.
12ga>

[Jerry Peck]

It looks like aluminum to me. When I find tin dipped copper it's usually cloth sheathed and in homes built before 1950. When in doubt I turn off the breaker and pull the wire to look at the bare end.

Usually ... tinned copper was used with rubber insulation as the copper reacted with the rubber and the tin coating isolated the two compounds from each other.

Rubber insulated wiring was mostly gone by the late 1940s to early 1950s and was replaced by thermoplastic insulation.

[Lon Henderson]

I don't think 14ga aluminum was even made.
12ga>

Beat me to the punch.....:)
I've never seen 14g aluminum. Since Noah, 15amp required minimum 12g al.

Many defects or errors in your photos, but I'm sure you covered that.

[JeffGHooper]

Sure they did, and do.

18AWG speaker cable. Electronics Cable and many others. readily available today. Just not approved for house or building branch circuit wiring.

Years ago they even made 14 AWG for low amp home wiring and I have even seen 10 amp beakers used with it for modular homes and RV's, although very, very, very rare.

Many low end light fixtures come with it today, both AL, and Tinned Copper. Mostly Tinned Copper.

[Dwight Doane]

Yep - Looks like Aluminum to me too but it also looks a little bigger than the Copper - Maybe that is the photo ?

- - - Updated - - -

Yep - Looks like Aluminum to me too but it also looks a little bigger than the Copper - Maybe that is the photo ?

[Rick Cantrell]

Sure they did, and do.
18AWG speaker cable. Electronics Cable and many others. readily available today.
I don't think anyone was talking about speaker wire. Though I even doubt speaker wire would be made of aluminum.


Just not approved for house or building branch circuit wiring.

Bingo, That's what I was talking about. Wiring in houses


Years ago they even made 14 AWG for low amp home wiring Can you document?


Many low end light fixtures come with it today, both AL, and Tinned Copper. Mostly Tinned Copper.
Again, can you provide documentation.

[JeffGHooper]

I don't think anyone was talking about speaker wire. Though I even doubt speaker wire would be made of aluminum.

Bingo, That's what I was talking about. Wiring in houses

Can you document?

Again, can you provide documentation.


Sure, when I get back to the office I will post links. The information is readily available should you wish to explore.

Yes, lots of speaker wire, the cheap stuff, is AL. Common knowledge.

[JeffGHooper]

Like I said, very, very very rare.

If you are not doing real high end homes with specialty systems I would not expect you to run into it as basic home wiring is just that, basic.

The Q110 is a 10 amp breaker and the Q210 is a 2 pole 10 amp beaker. Rated for AL. see:

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdistribution/us/en/speedfax-product-catalog/Documents/sf-11-sect-07-019-028.pdf

There are others. Like AIRPAX - UPL1-1RO-2433-3 - Circuit breaker. 10Amp 250V 50/60Hz.

See page 10 of this one for Square D 10 amp breakers for 14 AWG AL at the bottom. It is a QO.

http://www.schneider-electric.us/documents/customers/retail-consumer/Retail-Catalog-2013.pdf

or

https://www.altestore.com/mmsolar/others/QO-QOB_Circuit_Breakers.pdf

Here is a roll of 14 AWG at Lowes for you:

Shop 25-ft 14-AWG Solid Aluminum Wire (By-the-Roll) at Lowes.com (http://www.lowes.com/pd_69871-226-1483-1402A_0__?productId=3397622)

Just for fun I will throw in some 14 AWG AL fence wire. Just because of the way you asked.

Fi-Shock? Aluminum Wire, 14 Gauge, 1/4 Mile - Tractor Supply Co. (http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/fi-shocktrade%3B-aluminum-wire-14-gauge-1-4-mile)

Here is a little speaker wire for your next project from home depot. One is copper the other is AL.

CE TECH 100 ft. 18-Gauge Stranded Speaker Wire-Y611814 - The Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/p/CE-TECH-100-ft-18-Gauge-Stranded-Speaker-Wire-Y611814/203726254)

Never say never! I could go on but I think you get the jest! Light fixtures from China I forgot, I will let you do the leg work for that one. Just the tip of the iceberg.

[Rick Cantrell]

Sure, when I get back to the office I will post links. The information is readily available should you wish to explore.

Yes, lots of speaker wire, the cheap stuff, is AL. Common knowledge.
The statement I made was

I don't think 14ga aluminum was even made.
12ga>

What is shown in the OP is not speaker wire, or light fixtures. So my post was not about speaker wire or light fixtures. There is really no need to discuss them or even bring it up.

That said
Was 14ga single strand aluminum wire made and used for/in residential wiring?

[JeffGHooper]

Was it used in? Yes, but not legally unless on a 10 amp breaker.

Was it made? Still is.

Buy it here.

Shop 25-ft 14-AWG Solid Aluminum Wire (By-the-Roll) at Lowes.com (http://www.lowes.com/pd_69871-226-1483-1402A_0__?productId=3397622)

[Rick Cantrell]

Was it used in? Yes, but not legally unless on a 10 amp breaker.

Was it made? Still is.

Buy it here.

Shop 25-ft 14-AWG Solid Aluminum Wire (By-the-Roll) at Lowes.com (http://www.lowes.com/pd_69871-226-1483-1402A_0__?productId=3397622)


I learned something new
Thank you

[John Kogel]

That solid Al with the insulation on? makes great fish tape for pulling wire into wall cavities. ;)
You can get a nice hook on the end, strip off a few " of insulation and bend a tiny hook in there.

I have a chunk of that with a hook to go fishing for insulation behind a wall outlet.

[Jim Port]

Was it used in? Yes, but not legally unless on a 10 amp breaker.

Was it made? Still is.

Buy it here.

Shop 25-ft 14-AWG Solid Aluminum Wire (By-the-Roll) at Lowes.com (http://www.lowes.com/pd_69871-226-1483-1402A_0__?productId=3397622)

Reading is fundamental. The wiring is not aluminum, it is copper as required by the NEC. The sheath is aluminum. Entirely different animal. Using the above statement would mean the NM cable have plastic conductors. You cannot rely on the descriptions written by someone with no product knowledge. I would have hoped someone performing inspections would have a better knowledge of code requirements and products.

[JeffGHooper]

I learned something new
Thank you

I learn something new every day Rick.

The day I do not, I better get out of the business, cuz that's when the fat letters arrive1 LOL

[Rick Cantrell]

Jeff
I'm not being argumentative, I just want to know.
Was 14ga single strand wire made with a plactic sheath (Romex)?

[JeffGHooper]

Reading is fundamental. The wiring is not aluminum, it is copper as required by the NEC. The sheath is aluminum. Entirely different animal. Using the above statement would mean the NM cable have plastic conductors. You cannot rely on the descriptions written by someone with no product knowledge. I would have hoped someone performing inspections would have a better knowledge of code requirements and products.

Yes, and I still do not see where that is stated; however, I will give you that. Other posts below that I made have links to solid and braided AL.

[Jim Port]

Again, it comes down to product knowledge. How can you inspect without knowing what you are looking at?

[JeffGHooper]

To my knowledge yes in the early 70's, before we knew of the problems, and I have inspected such. In fact the original posters photo may be just that. The modular home industry used it extensively. Maybe not in the ROMEX brand name. NM I believe.

Jerry may know more and be able to chime in.

- - - Updated - - -


Again, it comes down to product knowledge. How can you inspect without knowing what you are looking at?

Are you talking to me? Ok.

[Tom Rees]

It looks like aluminum to me. When I find tin dipped copper it's usually cloth sheathed and in homes built before 1950. When in doubt I turn off the breaker and pull the wire to look at the bare end.


Usually ... tinned copper was used with rubber insulation as the copper reacted with the rubber and the tin coating isolated the two compounds from each other.

Rubber insulated wiring was mostly gone by the late 1940s to early 1950s and was replaced by thermoplastic insulation.

Jerry, This is not meant to be argumentative but for my education. You posted before about tinned copper wiring having a rubber insulation and how the rubber breaks down. Thank you for that information. However, like Trent I usually see tinned copper with a cloth insulation and pre 1950. Is this a geographic thing or ??

[Jim Port]

The rubber insulation had a cloth overwrap. Fabric was not the insulation. Consider the older AC cables for an example.

- - - Updated - - -

The rubber insulation had a cloth overwrap. Fabric was not the insulation. Consider the older AC cables for an example.

[Tom Rees]

[QUOTE=Jim Port;254180]The rubber insulation had a cloth overwrap. Fabric was not the insulation. Consider the older AC cables for an example.

Jim, Did all tinned copper have a rubber insulation with cloth sheathing or did some of it have a cloth loom insulation that was saturated with rubber?

[Jim Port]

The only method I remember with fabric insulation was knob and tube. I do not remember any of that being tinned.

Perhaps one of the older members can add to this. Jerry, are you out there? :D

[JeffGHooper]

[QUOTE=Jim Port;254180]The rubber insulation had a cloth overwrap. Fabric was not the insulation. Consider the older AC cables for an example.

Jim, Did all tinned copper have a rubber insulation with cloth sheathing or did some of it have a cloth loom insulation that was saturated with rubber?

From what I understand the tinning came about because of the rubber as they noticed the reaction between the rubber and copper. The attached is very basic, but a good history. He is not completely accurate on some of his dates.

https://www.dli.mn.gov/ccld/PDF/eli_GFCI_history.pdf

[gary carroll]

They do make 14 gauge (and smaller) insulated aluminum wire and cable; it's often used to connect to electric fences made of aluminum. It's better than connecting copper wire to the aluminum fence. Insulated because the connections are often buried running from the charger, which is located indoors. I think I've seen it for sale in farm supply places and rural hardware stores.
Small gauges are available because while the voltages are high, the amperage is quite low.

I've also seen low diameter aluminum conductor cable used for low voltage outdoor LED lights. In this case, both low voltage low amp. I think these were two-conductor DC, no ground wire in the cable.

I am NOT an electrician.

[Rick Cantrell]

[QUOTE=Tom Rees;254182]

https://www.dli.mn.gov/ccld/PDF/eli_GFCI_history.pdf

Very interesting
Thanks for posting

[david shapiro]

Yes it is.

And those are 20 amp breakers so it better not be 14.

To complete the thought in case not everyone recognizes your point, a 20 A breaker requires 10AWG or larger Aluminum

[david shapiro]

Inspected a home today and I think it might have aluminum branch wiring but I am not 100% sure.

The reason I am not positive is because the vast majority of the box is obviously copper but there are a select few breakers that look aluminum (however I know they make coated wiring that kind of looks aluminum even though it isn't) 3144831449

So far as I know, coated copper was only used in rubber-insulated wiring. If it's normal building wire and it's thermoplastic-insulated, . . . aluminum.

[Jerry Peck]

However, like Trent I usually see tinned copper with a cloth insulation and pre 1950. Is this a geographic thing or ??

Tom,

What I suspect you are referring to is cloth outer sheath, not the insulation, as the cloth is not the insulation.

NM cable with tinned copper and rubber insulation had a cloth outer sheath.

Then they brought in thermoplastic insulation with the cloth outer sheath, then they began making NM cable basically as we know it today with thermoplastic insulation and the outer PVC sheath.

The rubber insulation dries out and cracks and the cracks are basically "uninsulated" places where the conductors can short out or ground out. (While "air" is an insulator, you need good and reliable amount of "air" for insulation purposes, and the "air" in the cracked rubber insulation is nowhere equivalent to what the rubber insulation was originally.

Most likely ... any rubber insulated NM cable you find really needs to be replaced due to the deteriorated insulation.

Added - I guess I should have read the other newer posts first before replying ... they already addressed this.

[Tom Rees]

Jerry, Found a good picture of tinned copper from one of my older reports. I can see what you were talking about the insualtion cracking. Just didn't look like rubber to me at the time.

[Dwight Doane]

[QUOTE=Tom Rees;254182]

From what I understand the tinning came about because of the rubber as they noticed the reaction between the rubber and copper. The attached is very basic, but a good history. He is not completely accurate on some of his dates.

https://www.dli.mn.gov/ccld/PDF/eli_GFCI_history.pdf


Jeff This is a great article - thank you for sharing - nice piece to help educate customers that are purchasing older homes which may in fact be museums of electrification :p

[Jerry Peck]

Tom,

Yes, that looks like rubber insulation which is dried out and cracked, and is cracking off the conductor.