Should I measure the kitchen cabinetry?

[Ben Im]

When I inspect the small condo, there were remodeled counter top, cabinets, and sink in the kitchen but just empty spaces for a dishwasher and a range/oven.
after my client moved in, he called me and complain about kitchen cabinetry because new dishwasher and oven just he bought are not fit for there spaces prepared for.
I think cabinet installer's sluppy job is the reason.
All dimensions were 1/2 inch shorter than standard and could not adjustable.

My question is.. Is there any regulation/code about cabinetry dimensions for the equipments installation? so, should I measure the cabinets and find out the size was standard or not?
thanks for the any comments

[Garry Sorrells]

Unless you contracted to measure and verify the kitchen design and also were given the appliance specifications you are not responsible. Most appliances used are a standard size. Range 30", Dish Washer 24", Frig 30 / 33 / 36 x 66. Who ever installed the kitchen is to blame for following a poor design.

But personally I would have taken a quick measure to check.

[Jerry Peck]

Standard sizes?

Depends.

Standard house sizes or standard apartment/efficiency sizes?

Typically, standard house sizes have minimum of:
- 30" for the range
- 30" above the range for the hood/microwave
- 30" for the refrigerator
- 24" for the dishwasher

Of course, though, ranges, refrigerators, etc., can be bought which are much wider. Most dishwashers will fit into a 24" space, but some may require 30".

There are SMALLER appliances, though, and your client likely did not check for those.

Here is a 24" wide refrigerator: Frigidaire FFTR1022QM 24" Freestanding Refrigerators Silver Mist (http://www.appliancesconnection.com/frigidaire-fftr1022qm-i371236.html)

And, yes, smaller appliance are not only smaller outside, but they are smaller inside, so instead of a 21 cu ft refrigerator, it is a 9.9 cu ft one.

You say that there is no way to make the spaces larger? No countertop overhang at all?

It might be better to remove the countertop, remove the cabinets and reinstall the cabinets with proper spacing, then order a replacement countertop, than to suffer through smaller appliances.

The cost of a lawsuit for merchantability would likely be greater than the cost for doing the above.

Was the work permitted? Was the work required to be permitted? Are licensed contractors required there? After finding out that information, your client may - may - have some hammer power to hold over the contractors head to get them to redo the work for no cost.

[Lon Henderson]

Nothing in any SoP calls for measuring openings, so there's no "requirement". This falls on the installer.

[Raymond Wand]

Vendor is responsible since he ordered the appliances. Most everyone I deal with measures the openings if the appliances are not staying.

[Ben Im]

Problem is..
the stupid cabinet worker have done it for the seller. My client has any information about him and seller did not want claim it for the buyer after property deals done.
so, the buyer has to spend extra money for fix them and blaim me because I did not catch the half inch short openings.
anyway from now, I'll measure them if the same situations occure.

[Gunnar Alquist]

No. If this was a home inspection, then the standards are defined in the Business & Professions Code as well as through organizations like ASHI and CREIA. If you use a contract, your client has been informed about what your inspection does and does not cover. If this was a construction phase inspection, then that is a different story and you should have measured for appliances.

[Lon Henderson]

Problem is..
the stupid cabinet worker have done it for the seller. My client has any information about him and seller did not want claim it for the buyer after property deals done.
so, the buyer has to spend extra money for fix them and blaim me because I did not catch the half inch short openings.
anyway from now, I'll measure them if the same situations occure.
Your inspection does not absolve the seller. The buyer should sue the seller in small claims. Since there is no requirement for you to measure appliance openings and you haven't measured them for past clients, then this should be between the buyer and seller.

But, it's common for most of us, to modify our procedures after an incident like this and I'll lay a tape on appliance openings in new kitchens in the future, too.

[Jerry Peck]

When I inspect the small condo, there were remodeled counter top, cabinets, and sink in the kitchen but just empty spaces for a dishwasher and a range/oven.

Kinda sounds like a "flipper" did the work/had the work done - remodeled kitchen but no appliances ... seems like the seller had no intention of installing appliances (which is an indication it was being flipped).

I years past, I have measured some openings - when the openings 'just looked too small' - as I recall, though, they were all at least enough to tight fit an appliance in there.

Keep in mind, though, that if you measure them to make sure the appliances will fit, that you do not give an open-ended 'the appliances will' fit indication or even be seen measuring without making some commentary as to the width you measured for which appliances. Let's say you measured 30-1/8" wide for the range and the client comes back and says that you did not tell them a 36" appliance would not fit ...

Either keep not measuring them or measure them and include the measurement in your report - it is then up to the client to read ... at least review ... the report, in which case they would - should - see the width measurement.

And if the measurement is less than you suspect is needed, make additional commentary that the client needs to verify the width of the appliance they intent to install with the width of the opening ... and to do such BEFORE they actually close on the house. If the client does and the appliances will not fit, the client can take it up with the seller, if the client does not ... will, then it becomes the client's responsibility - so make sure that is more than 'just a comment', make sure you put that in the 'you need to check these things' part (whatever part of the report you call that, deficiencies, concerns, defects, you best lookee here, whatever).

Not everything which seems 'simple enough' is really that simple ... is anything which seems 'simple enough' really 'that simple'?

Something to do with the Law of Unintended Consequences ...

[Raymond Wand]

On a somewhat related matter.
Ontario case law.
Indexed as:
Seltzer-Soberano v. Kogut

[1999] O.J. No. 1871
Court File No. 97-SR-120268

Ontario Superior Court of Justice
B. Wright J.

Heard: May 10-12, 1999.
Judgment: May 26, 1999.

Decision -
6 The usual house inspection is general in nature and is performed by a visual inspection. A house inspector cannot be held responsible for a problem which is not readily apparent by a reasonable visual inspection. A house inspector would be held to a different standard of responsibility if requested to respond to a specific question, i.e., "We want to know if there is any evidence of termites in this house?" If that specific question was asked of a house inspector, the inspector, unless expert in that area, would probably tell the proposed purchaser to consult a pest control company.

¶ 7 I find in this case that a house inspector could not visually discover the problem of the driveway configuration which caused the plaintiffs' cars to scrape on the garage floor. The only way the problem could be discovered would be to actually drive a car into the garage. Whether the problem would manifest itself would depend on the make of car because of variances in clearance between the ground and the car's front bumper.

¶ 8 Therefore, the action against the defendant is dismissed.

[Mark Reinmiller]

Would it have been a good idea to measure? Sure, but you were not required to. I'm sure you will in the future though (we learn a lot from complaints).

Sure the seller does not want to be responsible, but he hired the contractor (or remodeled the kitchen), and he was selling a house with a new kitchen. One would assume that standard appliances would fit. And when it comes to slide in ranges and anything other than an apartment size dishwasher (i.e. 18" wide) 30" range openings and 24" dishwasher openings are standard.

Its odd around here to not include the range or dishwasher. So, was the sellers being cheap or did he realize that they did not fit?

[Jim Hintz]

You're not an Interior Designer nor an Appliance Installer. Most people are measuring cabinets and rooms during the inspection. You didn't build the place, not your responsibility. JMO.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

By offering the purchaser, your client, a measuring tape, pad or paper, you eliminate any false expectations.

[Marshall Brown]

I assume you have an inspection agreement of some sort signed before you start the inspection. All E&O insurance I am aware of requires this. This should refer to, or include, the standard of practice, SOP, you adhere to. None of those I have read, ASHI, NAHI, InterNACHI, include this as a service you agree to perform. You could offer it as an additional service for a fee, but frankly I'd stay as far away from that as I could.

- - - Updated - - -

I assume you have an inspection agreement of some sort signed before you start the inspection. All E&O insurance I am aware of requires this. This should refer to, or include, the standard of practice, SOP, you adhere to. None of those I have read, ASHI, NAHI, InterNACHI, include this as a service you agree to perform. You could offer it as an additional service for a fee, but frankly I'd stay as far away from that as I could.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

On a somewhat related matter.
Ontario case law.
Indexed as:
Seltzer-Soberano v. Kogut

[1999] O.J. No. 1871
Court File No. 97-SR-120268

Ontario Superior Court of Justice
B. Wright J.

Heard: May 10-12, 1999.
Judgment: May 26, 1999.

Decision -
6 The usual house inspection is general in nature and is performed by a visual inspection. A house inspector cannot be held responsible for a problem which is not readily apparent by a reasonable visual inspection. A house inspector would be held to a different standard of responsibility if requested to respond to a specific question, i.e., "We want to know if there is any evidence of termites in this house?" If that specific question was asked of a house inspector, the inspector, unless expert in that area, would probably tell the proposed purchaser to consult a pest control company.

¶ 7 I find in this case that a house inspector could not visually discover the problem of the driveway configuration which caused the plaintiffs' cars to scrape on the garage floor. The only way the problem could be discovered would be to actually drive a car into the garage. Whether the problem would manifest itself would depend on the make of car because of variances in clearance between the ground and the car's front bumper.

¶ 8 Therefore, the action against the defendant is dismissed.

Interesting hypothesis and action of deduction of the courts.

Question? What is deemed determined as a safe angle or entry / exit / passageway for a vehicles?
Is the vehicle stock or modified?

I would be concerned with the pathway for event water.

Ray, Thanks for the case.


.

[Raymond Wand]

Good morning Robert.

Good questions. However those concerns would be well outside accepted visual inspection standards.

Having said that, if a client does have a concern about the angle of entry for their vehicles I would highly recommend the client try his/her vehicles on the ramp.

Many of my clients will often measure the garage in order to determine if the garage is large enough for their vehicles. And again that would be determined on the size of the car.

Best,

[Garry Sorrells]

On one side of the coin is "Caveat Emptor" and "Time is of the essence." for the buyer.

Then there is the concept to do more than what is asked and you will have a happy customer/boss.

Though there is more to having an appliance fit than the face opening and knowing what to look for requires knowledge and experience. Not for the one that is correct and will work, but the one that is quirky with issues that you have to be able to recognize.