Toilet Rough-In ?

[Rick Hurst]

Is it 13 or 15 in. centerline from the wall?

I guess they'll have to cross their legs on this one. ;)

rick

[Joshua Hardesty]

15 or 18 I think. But, "more than that."

[Bruce Breedlove]

Sen. Larry Craig would have trouble sitting on that toilet with his "wide stance". But that ceramic tile would be great for foot tapping.

[Rick Cantrell]

It's 15" both sides of center line, 21" in front of rim.

[Bob White]

That's the new "sidesaddle" model.

[Jerry Peck]

It's 15" both sides of center line, 21" in front of rim.


15 or 18 I think. But, "more than that."

Rick,

15" is the absolute minimum, however, if this needs to meet Fair Housing Act Guidelines, then it needs to be at 18". Typically, though, you will only find that in condos, and then typically in the master bath.

I'm not up on the Fair Housing Act Guidelines, but I see plans which specify that 18" and show the wheelchair accessible space in front of the tub, lav, water closet, in the kitchen and in the laundry too.

That's why (I think) Joshua stated 'or 18 I think'.

I'm guessing that new member Alan Turner ("I'm not a home inspector, just worked in landscape design and architectural firms for about 30 years, and somewhere along the line got the name ADA Nazi because I got the job of reviewing plans for ADA compliance.") would know quite a bit about the Fair Housing Act Guidelines ... maybe he will see this and respond.

[Rick Cantrell]

It's been a few years since I read anything about ADA, but if I remember correctly:
1) 5'x5' free space in front of toilet for wheelchair access
2) Handicap toilet (taller)
3) grab bars
4) Sink without lower cabinets (for wheelchair access).
5) Water and drain pipes are protected with padded covers.
6) faucet has levers not knobs
7) doors have levers not knobs
8) access door(s) to bathroom is 36"
This may not be correct, it's just the way I remember it.

[Rick Hurst]

If I took in account the width of this clients backside, 36 inches wouldn't have been enough. ;)

He was a big ole boy.

But I did put 15-18in. on the report.

The width of this hall to the bedroom was going to be an issue for him he stated too.

rick

[Erby Crofutt]

ADA Compliance requirements can be found online in a 4.5 MB PDF File available from the United States Access Board at this link.

http://www.access-board.gov/ada-aba/final.pdf

If you're on dial up you might want to use the online version which downloads as just a section at a time.

ADA-ABA Accessibility Guidelines (http://www.access-board.gov/ada-aba/final.htm#pgfId-1010040)

In regards to the toilet distance from wall, it depends: Not only is there a minimum but a maximum in ADA Compliant stalls.

604.2 Location. The water closet shall be positioned with a wall or partition to the rear and to one side.
The centerline of the water closet shall be 16 inches (405 mm) minimum to 18 inches (455 mm) maximum from the side wall or partition, except that the water closet shall be 17 inches (430 mm) minimum and 19 inches (485 mm) maximum from the side wall or partition in the ambulatory accessible toilet compartment specified in 604.8.2. Water closets shall be arranged for a left-hand or right-hand approach.



604.8.1.1 Size. Wheelchair accessible compartments shall be 60 inches (1525 mm) wide minimum measured perpendicular to the side wall, and 56 inches (1420 mm) deep minimum for wall hung water closets and 59 inches (1500 mm) deep minimum for floor mounted water closets measured perpendicular to the rear wall. Wheelchair accessible compartments for children's use shall be 60 inches (1525 mm) wide minimum measured perpendicular to the side wall, and 59 inches (1500 mm) deep minimum for wall hung and floor mounted water closets measured perpendicular to the rear wall.

Advisory 604.8.1.1 Size. The minimum space required in toilet compartments is provided so that a person using a wheelchair can maneuver into position at the water closet. This space cannot be obstructed by baby changing tables or other fixtures or conveniences, except as specified at 604.3.2 (Overlap). If toilet compartments are to be used to house fixtures other than those associated with the water closet, they must be designed to exceed the minimum space requirements. Convenience fixtures such as baby changing tables must also be accessible to people with disabilities as well as to other users. Toilet compartments that are designed to meet, and not exceed, the minimum space requirements may not provide adequate space for maneuvering into position at a baby changing table.


There's a bunch of diagrams, etc, to help you figure it all out.

[imported_John Smith]

Rick, that looks like the same dimensional tolerances used in the Houston area. +/- 6". I have seen it on older houses and on new houses. When I layed the tile in my own home, the fellow I bought the tile from suggested I lay it on the diagonal. Once he explained it to me, it made perfect sense (helps with hiding bad building practices).

[Jerry Peck]

The width of this hall to the bedroom was going to be an issue for him he stated too.

That sure is not going to meet the required minimum hall width dimension either, is it?

[brian schmitt]

the hallway would require a minimum 36" wide path and the toilet looks like a pats game ,standing room only!:D

[Billy Stephens]

That sure is not going to meet the required minimum hall width dimension either, is it?


Mr Peck,

Is the hallway requirement measured from the sheet rock to sheet rock? Or trim to trim?

They appear to be 15" tile.

[brian schmitt]

billy,
face of finish to face of finish. that one is real wrong,red tag it. you need 3' in front of dee dough.

[Jerry Peck]

Is the hallway requirement measured from the sheet rock to sheet rock? Or trim to trim?

Wall to wall (paint to paint).


They appear to be 15" tile.

Assuming that is a 2'6" wide door, those tiles are likely 12" tiles, could even be 9" tiles as there is a little (maybe an inch) past the first full tile in the doorway and a little (maybe 2 inches) this side of the tile.

[Billy Stephens]

Wall to wall (paint to paint).



Assuming that is a 2'6" wide door, those tiles are likely 12" tiles, could even be 9" tiles as there is a little (maybe an inch) past the first full tile in the doorway and a little (maybe 2 inches) this side of the tile.


Thank You I was guessing 32" door. !5" tile measured across is about 20".

[Rick Hurst]

Good eye there Billy.

That door is a 32in. door as you thought. That entrance is to a prior garage that has been converted to a bedroom. Hard to tell in the picture, but the floor is lower in the room than the hallway.

Now imagine that is the only doorway into that bedroom and you have to take in your furniture through that small opening of the hallway.

Once I pointed that to the client he said that was not going to work out at all.

rick

[Billy Stephens]

That entrance is to a prior garage that has been converted to a bedroom.

only doorway into that bedroom

rick

RICK,

You mean they didn't leave the Roll UP Door installed!

[Rick Hurst]

Billy,

No, they actually took out the overhead garage door but installed the wood siding in contact with the concrete with no flashing.

[Billy Stephens]

Your Killing Me Rick! :D

[Richard Rushing]

Yo Rick,

For future references... here are the bathroom clearances (illustrated);


Rich

[Alan Turner]

ADA requires 18" from the centerline to the wall, that gives room for 14" plus the grab bars and clearance required for the grab bars.

Not everything has to be ADA compliant - I just think it's a good idea anyway for new construction, because the cost of doing it that way in the first place for every unit is much cheaper than retrofitting just one of them later.

Keep in mind that the ADA isn't necessarily the strictest rule, either. Depending on what and where the building is, some jurisdictions have even stricter standards. Delaware has adds a couple of inches to the ADAAG for any state-funded facility and some other rules that aren't in the ADA, for one example I know of.

You probably won't run into such rules in a single family house built or renovated in the past ten years, unless some jurisdiction has gotten even stricter than I've heard. But less than 16" in modern construction is less than standard practice, ADA or not.

I dug out my old editions of Architectural Graphic Standards (I have them all), and the recommended distance from the centerline of a toilet to a wall went from 15" to 16" some time between 1941 and 1951. I can send you copies of the relavent pages if that would be useful.

You can get a CD of all the ADAAG for free here:

Department of Justice ADA Technical Assistance CD-ROM (http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adatacd1.htm)

[Jerry Peck]

I dug out my old editions of Architectural Graphic Standards (I have them all), and the recommended distance from the centerline of a toilet to a wall went from 15" to 16" some time between 1941 and 1951.

You are confusing me.

This is from the IRC, and it's been that way for decades (underlining and bold are mine).
- SECTION P2705
- - INSTALLATION
- - - P2705.1 General. The installation of fixtures shall conform to the following:
- - - - 5. The centerline of water closets or bidets shall not be less than 15 inches (381 mm) from adjacent walls or partitions or not less than 15 inches (381 mm)from the centerline of a bidet to the outermost rim of an adjacent water closet. There shall be at least 21 inches (533 mm) clearance in front of the water closet, bidet or lavatory to any wall, fixture or door.

[Richard Rushing]

I believe the morphing of this thread from the new construction requirements of the (centerline of the) ACD to the wall are now being discussed as ADA requirements....

Just not the same.

rr

[Jerry Peck]

I believe the morphing of this thread from the new construction requirements of the (centerline of the) ACD to the wall are now being discussed as ADA requirements....

Just not the same.

rr


Depends ...

As I posted early on ...



... however, if this needs to meet Fair Housing Act Guidelines ...


In which case those would be basically the same size spaces as required by the ADA. Thus, referencing the ADA is not that far off.

If you are talking single family dwellings, in 4 or fewer dwelling units, I'm not sure that the Fair Housing Act Guidelines apply, which is where I had handed that off to Alan ... :)

[imported_John Smith]

I know the thread is toilet rough in, but I also saw pictures of garage space converted to living space. I charge extra for inspecting a garage turned into living space. Im curious how many of my peers also charge extra for this.
I have seen very few of these conversions done correctly. Most are poorly done. One house in particular had a beautiful large room (combo formal dining and bar), I would have put in a pool table, but thats me. Anyway there was a two story 3 car garage behind the property that matched the house perfectly. Upon further inspection of the large room, I noticed receptacles mounted in the ceiling. This was really my only tip off that the room was a conversion. The owner confirmed my suspicion saying no one else (buyers/other inspectors) even noticed the receptacles in the ceiling. Also there were no vents located in the ceiling for HVAC.

[Alan Turner]

My point of view is as a designer, and having gotten bitten once, I figure it just makes sense to design to the strictest rules - wherever you find them. Meet them all, and you should be OK.

The toilet clearance may not be something to mention in a home inspection report, but for new (e.g. since WWII) construction, 16" has been the standard, and any plumber should know that the centerline of the fixture shouldn't be less than that.

The ADA doesn't apply everywhere, but it's pretty strict. Meet that, and you have most of the bases covered as far as accessibility goes. An architect in Alabama condensed the ADA into a checkbook-sized book, I used to carry it all the time. Even more useful, Starret makes a 25' ADA "Code Tape" that mentinons the relavent issues at the appropriate points.

[Billy Stephens]

The toilet clearance may not be something to mention in a home inspection report,



????? :confused:


(IT GOES IN MINE!)

[Jerry Peck]

but for new (e.g. since WWII) construction, 16" has been the standard,

Alan,

Asking again in case you missed my question above ...

* 15" * is the code standard, and has been, for a very long time - yet twice you have stated it is 16". Why? Where does that come from? Why is that not in the codes?

[Richard Rushing]

I too would like to know where that is coming from...

It is 15" inches--- NOT 16"...

Alan-- you stated:
quote: "The toilet clearance may not be something to mention in a home inspection report, but for new (e.g. since WWII) construction, 16" has been the standard, and any plumber should know that the centerline of the fixture shouldn't be less than that."

The thing is any plumber would be wrong stating such...

rr

[BARRY ADAIR]

May have ordered one of those "male enhancement" versions :eek: couldn't resist

[Alan Turner]

Alan,

Asking again in case you missed my question above ...

* 15" * is the code standard, and has been, for a very long time - yet twice you have stated it is 16". Why? Where does that come from? Why is that not in the codes?


I got the 16" dimension from Archictectural Graphic Standards, 6th ED, 1970. AGS is not a building code, but it's a good guideline when building something.

More recently, from the ADA, 28 CFR part 36, 4.17.3 (1991) specifies 18", which allows for grab bars. Again, not a code, and the ADA is only applicable to public and commercial buildings. But for any new construction, following those guidelines makes sense, because if the building is ever repurposed, there won't be the expense of renovating just to move a pipe or a wall a couple of inches. Not the law, but it makes sense, and that's what I go by as a designer. Not the least you can get away with, but what will make the building the most useful over its lifertime.

As to why BOCA and the other codes haven't caught up with a law from 16 years ago, you'd have to ask the people who write those codes. But I bet they will sooner or later.

Failing to meet the ADAAG in a single family home is NOT illegal. But in the next ten or twenty years it's going to be a bigger and bigger issue in resale value, and I bet it's going to start to show up in various kinds of rental and financing assistance sooner than that.

[Jerry Peck]

Alan,

What caught my attention, as well as that of others, was this statement:


but for new (e.g. since WWII) construction, 16" has been the standard, and any plumber should know that the centerline of the fixture shouldn't be less than that.

Any plumber (they go by code) will tell you that the minimum center-to-wall clearance is 15", and every architectural drawing I've seen (which are designed to code) shows 15" unless drawn for FHA (Fair Housing Act) or ADA, which then show 18". I've never seen 16" on any plan.

Is that 16" to 'framing' or to 'finished wall'? If to 'framing', then I can understand the 16" as that will provide 16" less 5/8" for Type X (if Type X is needed) and 3/8" for tile (if tile is used on the wall) and still leave 15". Likewise, 16" to wall less 1/2" for gypsum board and a fraction for finishing and painting would still leave 15" ... plus about 1/2" fudge factor to play with.

[Greg D. Dames]

Maybe the property owner is 1/2 assed

[Michael Koerte]

That takes a "tight squeeze" into a whole nother dimension....Great picture...