OXIDIZED CAST IRON WASTE

[ROBERT YOUNG]

During a water infiltration inspection I ran across several sections of oxidized cast iron waste / gray water pipe. Plumbing pipe for the kitchen basin only. Dishwasher hookup was present.

32387
32388
I have never run into this defect before.
Limitation: Manufacturing marking.

One can hypothesize, corrosive drain cleaners, water trenching a corrosive path at the bottom of the cast iron.

I hypothesized the defect as being corrosive applied, but the plumber that just left paid no attention to the visual clues. Her/his hypothesis, the ceiling vent, to which he could not open.:(
It was accessible by the way.
Thank God I did not have to look at His/her crack.:p Never bent over.:)

Any information pertaining to poor manufactured pipe or manufacturing markings to be aware of would be much appreciated. So much so that I just might give rare but useful stateside laws still on the books today.
Just to incise you to reply... (It is against the law to milk another mans cow in the state of Texas.)

Now, it's information like that might keep you out of jail one day.
You never know. It could happen.
Regards.

[Bruce Ramsey]

Ok, How old is the house?

Cast iron has a 40-60 year life expectancy. Cast iron rusts. Get new pipe.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

[QUOTE=Bruce Ramsey;263391]Ok, How old is the house?

Cast iron has a 40-60 year life expectancy. /QUOTE]

Thank's Bruce.

Just to add a bit more, Wall thickness, waste components; ie rust-causing detergents, dissimilar connected/in contact metals, as well as slope can affect the piping materials/object longevity in cast iron waste plumbing.

75 to 100 years would be predictable.

Cast iron is as easy to install as ABS or other plastic waste and makes the system more silent.
Been in many century homes and observed century piping in very good condition.

What is the Life Cycle of Cast Iron Sewer Pipes? | eHow (http://www.ehow.com/info_12173619_life-cycle-cast-iron-sewer-pipes.html#ixzz2MQhHCqnk)




.

[Scott Patterson]

[QUOTE=Bruce Ramsey;263391]Ok, How old is the house?

Cast iron has a 40-60 year life expectancy. /QUOTE]

Thank's Bruce.

Just to add a bit more, Wall thickness, waste components; ie rust-causing detergents, dissimilar connected/in contact metals, as well as slope can affect the piping materials/object longevity in cast iron waste plumbing.

75 to 100 years would be predictable.

Cast iron is as easy to install as ABS or other plastic waste and makes the system more silent.
Been in many century homes and observed century piping in very good condition.

What is the Life Cycle of Cast Iron Sewer Pipes? | eHow (http://www.ehow.com/info_12173619_life-cycle-cast-iron-sewer-pipes.html#ixzz2MQhHCqnk)




.

That is just old worn out cast iron pipe. It is not defective it is just worn out and needs to be replaced. The projected lifespan for cast iron waste pipe is 40-50 years.

[Bruce Ramsey]

Cast iron is as easy to install as ABS or other plastic waste and makes the system more silent.
Been in many century homes and observed century piping in very good condition.

What is the Life Cycle of Cast Iron Sewer Pipes? | eHow (http://www.ehow.com/info_12173619_life-cycle-cast-iron-sewer-pipes.html#ixzz2MQhHCqnk)

.

Just as easy to install as plastic pipe? Packing Okum, pouring molten lead, and cutting cast iron. The difficulty of just simply moving the heavy pipe around is way more difficult than plastic pipe. Sounds like you have not installed much cast iron pipe.

[Raymond Wand]

Last time I saw cast iron installed they use no-hub couplings, and no-hub pipe is what they use now days, but ABS has pretty much replaced CI. at least in all residential.

http://www.cispi.org/FAQ.aspx#FAQ2
http://www.cispi.org/CISPI/files/8b/8b6004bc-1eaa-405c-b452-29061680a58e.pdf

[ROBERT YOUNG]

Just as easy to install as plastic pipe? Packing Okum, pouring molten lead, and cutting cast iron. The difficulty of just simply moving the heavy pipe around is way more difficult than plastic pipe. Sounds like you have not installed much cast iron pipe.
I see your point but the DWV is the hardest part. Any lateral rough in is the same installation procedure. Packing hubs vertically in new construction is not complicated. Lateral are no longer just hub and spigot.

It is quieter when all is said and done and likely lasts longer.
A comparison might be, wood constitution VS masonry construction.

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/02-117-e.html

[ROBERT YOUNG]

1: Just as easy to install as plastic pipe? Packing Okum, pouring molten lead, and cutting cast iron. The difficulty of just simply moving the heavy pipe around is way more difficult than plastic pipe.
2: Sounds like you have not installed much cast iron pipe.

One would think you were right in both cases.

2: Not much but I install copper in Westernmost OK by the local AHJ at 27 as well as the rest of My restoring a 200 year old back stable into a habitable space.
I can read, follow instructions, and managed small and large construction work sites as well as built.

1: Bruce, manufacturing technology and installation techniques have changed. Modern MethodsThe cast iron pipe available today looks somewhat similar to old cast iron. However, the methods of installing the material have changed drastically. Gone are the oakum and molten lead. In their place you now find vulcanized rubber seals and stainless steel band clamps.
Cast iron piping systems can now be installed in a fraction of the time it took to install them 50 years ago. In fact, modern cast iron piping can be installed just as quickly as plastic PVC piping.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/pvc-pipe-vs-cast-iron-pipe/

I cut my teeth on many changes and was ahead of many curves due to my being inquisitive.
I measured, weighed by volume and struck my own methodology.
Coloring mortar to do century facade or newer brack mortar repair restores was one such case.
I had to figger it out for myself in Quebec.
No one was doing it in Montreal, and I asked plenty. I had my nose in books.
Language stopped information from educating.
The unions crippled technology and innovation. They did worse than that as many know.
Too bad.
So sad.

Best regards.
Robert

[CoronadoBruin]

...and likely lasts longer

No, no, no, it doesn't last longer. Quieter, no doubt, and many higher-end single-family custom homes will have CI waste verticals for sound attenuation, but it does not last as long. In forty years of building and remodeling everything residential (and a fair amount of commercial) I've seen an absolute ton of failed CI, and California requires CI in all multi-family three stories and higher, Type V or Type I construction, so I come across it often. In my experience, CI begins to occlude from calcified deposits and rust within fifteen to twenty years, and fail within around thirty to forty years, depending upon slope and type of waste. Anything above forty and you're in a situation where it has a high slope and fairly clean water flushing the waste out. The no-hubs fail at about the same rate. I have yet to see failed ABS pipe in California (have never seen PVC DWV in California). Not saying ABS doesn't fail but I've never seen it.

We've had drops of corrosive and rusty water drip on our new cars in our condo building from pin holes in the CI in the parking garage. It invariably self-seals, and it invariably leaks gain, there or somewhere else.

ABS (and PVC) DWV is faster, cheaper, lighter, easier, and better, other than noise and fire.

[Raymond Wand]

ABS has had its problems too.

ABS Pipe Class Action Lawsuits (http://www.lieffcabraser.com/Case-Center/ABS-Pipe-Class-Action-Lawsuits.shtml)

Longevity seems to be a regional thing. Insurers up here dependent on what they consider a risk will or will not raise concerns with CI waste use.

[Jerry Peck]

The title of the thread threw me off ... because the photo shows rusted out cast iron DWV ...

While most building codes don't 'require' cast iron in four and more story buildings, the costs of firestops for PVC at each floor, and the cost to wrap PVC with insulation to quiet the noise raises the cost of PVC closer to cast iron ... the advantage of PVC is the longer life.

I have seen many, many cast iron failures which simply rusted out over time.

On the installation end, I have found many cracked and leaking cast iron pipes during code inspections of them - cast iron is very fragile. Fire resistant but fragile.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

SorryJerry.
cast iron drain-waste-vent

[Jerry Peck]

SorryJerry.
cast iron drain-waste-vent



Robert,

It was the "oxidized" part which threw me - when I saw the photo I wondered why the title was not "rusted out" cast iron.

Everything (of "almost everything") "oxidizes", however, little .. or great ... but "rusted through" is much more definitive and descriptive for what was shown. :)

[ROBERT YOUNG]

Jerry,
Thank you.

Rust is an iron oxide, one of the three oxides that make up iron, usually red oxide formed by the redox reaction of iron, oxygen in the presence of water or air moisture. henceforth the term oxidized.
I concur with you remarks.

When I saw exterior rust on the CI I speculated two hypotheses.
1: Moist exterior environment in the case/bulkhead, or 2: through wall oxidization.

My client phoned lost in the oxide narrative.
I concur, easier to say rusted through the pipe walls.

I require some help moving forward with my education.
I would be humbled if I could reach out to members here.
There is so much to learn.

Best regards.
Robert

[Jerry Peck]

Rust is an iron oxide, one of the three oxides that make up iron, usually red oxide formed by the redox reaction of iron, oxygen in the presence of water or air moisture. henceforth the term oxidized.

Back in the mid-1980s to mid- 1990s I owned a 1967 Jaguar E-Type (XKE to most people), the floors were, well ... 'well oxidized' ... to the point that I had to replace the floor pans, and two other 'oxidized' body panels for a similar reason.

Back in the late-1960s I had one 1959 Jaguar MK, one 1960 Jaguar MK II, and a 1954 Jaguar XK 140 OTS (Open Two Seater) ... I rebuilt many body panels on the XK 140 due to 'well oxidized' body panels.

At the time, though, I only thought of them as having "rusted through". :biggrin:

Now I know I should have addressed them as having been somewhat "oxidized". :thumb:

My current car, a 1983 Jaguar XJS has very little "oxidation" on it, none of which has "oxidized through". :cool:

[JOHN PAVAN]

During a water infiltration inspection I ran across several sections of oxidized cast iron waste / gray water pipe. Plumbing pipe for the kitchen basin only. Dishwasher hookup was present.

32387
32388
I have never run into this defect before.
Limitation: Manufacturing marking.

One can hypothesize, corrosive drain cleaners, water trenching a corrosive path at the bottom of the cast iron.

I hypothesized the defect as being corrosive applied, but the plumber that just left paid no attention to the visual clues. Her/his hypothesis, the ceiling vent, to which he could not open.:(
It was accessible by the way.
Thank God I did not have to look at His/her crack.:p Never bent over.:)

Any information pertaining to poor manufactured pipe or manufacturing markings to be aware of would be much appreciated. So much so that I just might give rare but useful stateside laws still on the books today.
Just to incise you to reply... (It is against the law to milk another mans cow in the state of Texas.)

Now, it's information like that might keep you out of jail one day.
You never know. It could happen.
Regards.

I have seen this when pipe does not drain properly. I bet you will find an area of improper slope on drain line, pipe stays full of water, rusts through at bottom.

[Mark Reinmiller]

No, no, no, it doesn't last longer. Quieter, no doubt, and many higher-end single-family custom homes will have CI waste verticals for sound attenuation, but it does not last as long. In forty years of building and remodeling everything residential (and a fair amount of commercial) I've seen an absolute ton of failed CI, and California requires CI in all multi-family three stories and higher, Type V or Type I construction, so I come across it often. In my experience, CI begins to occlude from calcified deposits and rust within fifteen to twenty years, and fail within around thirty to forty years, depending upon slope and type of waste. Anything above forty and you're in a situation where it has a high slope and fairly clean water flushing the waste out. The no-hubs fail at about the same rate. I have yet to see failed ABS pipe in California (have never seen PVC DWV in California). Not saying ABS doesn't fail but I've never seen it.

We've had drops of corrosive and rusty water drip on our new cars in our condo building from pin holes in the CI in the parking garage. It invariably self-seals, and it invariably leaks gain, there or somewhere else.

ABS (and PVC) DWV is faster, cheaper, lighter, easier, and better, other than noise and fire.

I suppose there are quality differences and maybe environmental differences. In PA it is not unusual to see original CI waste stacks that are 60 to 90 years old. Quite a few have been replaced, but many have not been. I would not quote that as a service life, but for older stuff I would be comfortable saying that 40-50 years could be expected. I seldom see CI that has been installed after about the 1960's, so I don't have a good feel for life expectancy of newer material.

There are numerous grades of CI and source of material may also be a factor.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

There are numerous grades of CI and source of material may also be a factor.

Mark, although I would state older pipe exhibits atmospheric dust, as well as other visual non-material signs of in place service age, this CI DWV pipe had none although the ceiling and other interior assembly components did.

As to your statement, Grades of CI and source of material, manufacturing defects were high on my assessment hypothesis list.

Any links to CI grades would be much appreciated.

Thanks, gentlemen.

[Jerry Peck]

Years ago I inspected a commercial building which had an attic (it was an older building, maybe 50 years old at the time), while in the attic I noticed a strange looking vent pipe. When I went over to it I saw that the cast iron had split apart and the cast iron had rusted out in layers from the inside.

The pipe was, as I recall, a 4 inch vent stack, there was no longer any hole down through it - the venting air was coming in through the split open sides of the pipe, the rust had split the pipe open.

This was a vertical pipe, which had no water in it ... ever ... except for maybe some rain water which would come in through the open vent through the roof.

I've seen similarly blocked sewer and waste pipes, horizontal pipes, which had not split open yet, but which were similarly clogged with the rusting pipe, and, of course, waste and sewage.