Require help to answer a question.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

I am having a discussion with a person who appears to be an electrical contractor.
Although I am trying my best, and that is limited to a degree, I am trying to explain why Square D and Cutler Hammer produce breakers designed to hold two conductors.

I hypothesize it was to extend a branch circuit.
He says it should never be done.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Raymond Wand]

The breaker will indicate whether its approved for two wires. Done all the time here in Ontario again providing the breakers is approved. This is done in order to save space/money.

[Jerry Peck]

This is done in order to save space/money.

It would save more money to run the circuit as one circuit instead of two circuits - less wire, less labor to run one wire, etc.

Instead of two 15 amp circuits (for example), there is only one 15 amp circuit when connected to one breaker.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

It would save more money to run the circuit as one circuit
I said that to a contentious little SOB electrical contractor on FB.

Instead of two 15 amp circuits (for example), there is only one 15 amp circuit when connected to one breaker.
I concur.
Dam, I lost S.D. Home Line PDF.

I told him to go to the manufacturer and see what they say.
Thanks guys.

Jerry, you are fading. I can hardly see you....
Ray, turn down the invisible mood please.:D

[Jerry Peck]

There and back - to the chagrin of of at least one. :)


... explain why Square D and Cutler Hammer produce breakers designed to hold two conductors.

They were tested that way. :biggrin:

Really, that is what it comes down to.

The design of the Square D breaker connection plate creates two wire terminals under the plate which is held down by one screw - the breakers were tested with one conductor and two conductors and listed in accordance to what it was tested with.

The Cutler-Hammer breakers, terminal different than the Square D terminal, was tested with one conductor and two conductors and listed in accordance to what it was test with.

It is expensive to test the various options, I am surprised that Cutler-Hammer did those tests. Square D, on the other hand, created a terminal plate for that purpose, then had it tested and approved - however, if one were to take that Square D terminal with that plate and wrap a single conductor around under the plate ... that would not be approved as that plate was not tested for having a conductor wrapped around under it ... the conductor(s) need to be straight in under the two terminal sections of the plate.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

I think just they did not take Cutler Hammer or Square D R&D into account.
Go figure! An electrician not knowing the product they install. :p

Hope you had a good time. Looks like a wonderful city.

[Bob Kenney]

33011
For the un-initiated here is a Square D double tap on an allowed breaker. If you examine the label it clearly indicates a single al/cu conductor or two cu cunductors.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

33011
For the un-initiated here is a Square D double tap on an allowed breaker. If you examine the label it clearly indicates a single al/cu conductor or two cu cunductors.

Bob.
Thanks you.
I am refreshing my education. By saying Square D have breakers you can tap twice is not a complete picture. From my understanding, the service panel must be labeled to accept this type of breaker as well. Would that be a far statement?

[Jerry Peck]

That's not a double tap.

There are two terminals on those breakers and each terminal has one conductor in it.

There is one terminal "screw" ... which has a terminal on each side of it.

A "multiple tap" ("double" tap for those who have never seen three or more conductors in a terminal) on those breakers would be if both of those conductors were under the same side of the terminal screw.

The photo simply shows a properly made termination on that breaker.

[Bob Kenney]

That particular breaker is also capable of a 'single tap' (one wire) as listed on the breaker.

Right and left can often be moot distinctions as well.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

That's not a double tap.
To be fair to Bob, double tapping is a misnomer.
A service panel breaker not designed to take two specified gauge & material conductors under the breaker terminal screw plate would be consider non compliant to the manufacturers recommended installations procedure.


There are two terminals on those breakers and each terminal has one conductor in it.
There is one terminal "screw" ... which has a terminal on each side of it.

The terminal screw contacts the stationary contact.
33012
Help me out so I can use the proper narrative.
I do not think the proper words are being used.
Orange is mine.

There is a metal or conductive plate allocated by the manufacture to be under the "terminal screw." For one, so that the conductors are properly aligned at the termination point. (2) To retrain the conductors using the correct torque under the "terminal screw."

What is that plate called? I looked on google but could not find the name of that plate. Any help would be appreciated.

To be fair to Bob, the image shows the manufacturers label and what to look for. Labels are most important.

A story.
I have seen service panel breakers that are labeled to take up to two conductors.
One Cutler Hammer service breaker termination plate had been removed on several breakers. 2 conductors were torqued under the terminal screw head only. One conductor/wire on each side of the screw head.
The vendor thought I was heavy handed with my report and the brokerage house took a run at me. The vendor hired a home inspector to reinspect the home. I am certain litigation would have ensued if I had made errors, any omissions would have been dismissed, on their party only:-)

The inspector used my report as a bread crumb trail. The report took 17 days to complete before I received a copy. It was peppered with errors and omissions.
I say this because labels and terminology are most important. So are images.

[Jim Port]

Bob.
Thanks you.
I am refreshing my education. By saying Square D have breakers you can tap twice is not a complete picture. From my understanding, the service panel must be labeled to accept this type of breaker as well. Would that be a far statement?

Any breaker used in a panel needs to be listed for use in that panel.

- - - Updated - - -


Bob.
Thanks you.
I am refreshing my education. By saying Square D have breakers you can tap twice is not a complete picture. From my understanding, the service panel must be labeled to accept this type of breaker as well. Would that be a far statement?

Any breaker used in a panel needs to be listed for use in that panel.

[Bob Kenney]

2 conductors were torqued under the terminal screw head only. One conductor/wire on each side of the screw head.


33014
Like this?:p

[ROBERT YOUNG]

33014


Sorry for the poor edit.

Like this?:p
Yes, but not quite like I was trying to explain.

I have to mount a stored Seagate Besktop 2 tera-bite drive to upload some defects I have seen. I will try to post them when I get some time.
Fully booked week.

Here is one offering from a blog I wrote called. (Gauge the Gauge)
Hope it meets with your approval.:D
33015

Sorry for the prior edit.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

33014
Like this?:p

Bob, that being a Cutler Hamer Class CLT type CH breaker. As with Square D breakers of the same characters, they accept CU AL and can terminate on either side of the terminal plate or tapped once.

Question: Cuttler Hamme now EATON. These breakers still available?
I will save this pic for my files if you do not mind.

[Bob Kenney]

Bob, that being a Cutler Hamer Class CLT type CH breaker. As with Square D breakers of the same characters, they accept CU AL and can terminate on either side of the terminal plate or tapped once.

Question: Cuttler Hamme now EATON. These breakers still available?
I will save this pic for my files if you do not mind.

You are certainly welcome to the picture. These breakers are still available, even HD has them.

If you look closely at the left portion of the label, partially out of the picture, you will see it says CU only.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

You are certainly welcome to the picture. These breakers are still available, even HD has them.

If you look closely at the left portion of the label, partially out of the picture, you will see it says CU only.
Much thanks.
Overlooked the CU only.:confused:

Mostly see Square D. Cutler Hamer Class CLT are rare in my neck of the woods.