Washington Post article: Home Inspectors can go too far.

[Lisa Endza]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/home-inspections-can-be-valuable-but-sometimes-they-go-too-far/2017/04/24/b8019e02-2916-11e7-a616-d7c8a68c1a66_story.html?utm_term=.ce1933ef8be5

[Robert Sheppard]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/home-inspections-can-be-valuable-but-sometimes-they-go-too-far/2017/04/24/b8019e02-2916-11e7-a616-d7c8a68c1a66_story.html?utm_term=.ce1933ef8be5


Another article written by an expert realtor……go figure. In Florida, you are required to report on systems and components that are “at the end of their service lives”. Nothing “limits” the scope of a home inspection but the inspectors’ own knowledge:

61-30.801 Standards of Practice, General.
(1) Home inspections performed to these Standards of Practice are intended to provide the client with information regarding the overall condition of installed systems and components of the home based on observation of the visible and apparent condition of the structure and components at the time of the home inspection and to report on those systems and components inspected that, in the professional opinion of the inspector, are significantly deficient or at the end of their service lives. A home inspection does not include the prediction of future conditions.

(2) These standards shall not be construed as limiting the scope of the inspection process in those areas where the inspector is qualified and/or has special knowledge.

[Jack Feldmann]

In TN, the SOP does not address calling out things "near the end of their service lives". However, since I am an ASHI member, the ASHI SOP does require that we report on things that are "near the end of their service lives".

I think inspectors that do not report when things are near the end of their service lives, are doing a disservice to their clients. It can mean a significant expense to a new home owner if they have to replace a water heater, roof, and HVAC systems.

I have found that most consumers have no idea how long components of a home are supposed to last. As inspectors, we know perfectly well that just because something is working (or appears to be working fine), does not mean that its just fine.

Most people will buy a new pair of shoes before they wear holes thru the soles. They will also buy a new car before the old one dies on the side of the road. But, many of those same people believe that they should not replace any part of the house until it dies. Unless they want a fancy new faucet, or tile backsplash they saw on HGTV.

[Lisa Endza]

the ASHI SOP does require that we report on things that are "near the end of their service lives".

Who put that in there? LOL 33452

[Garry Sorrells]

One of the problems with the article is that the author rely does not know what they are talking about, but why should that stop them from blabbering on.

From the article; " “Some inspectors have been known to call out [for replacing] older furnaces” that are operating normally, he says. Why is that a problem? Because under widely recognized professional rules of conduct, inspectors are not supposed to “determine the life expectancy of any component or system.”"

Well I am not sure about WI, but most SOPS by State Lic. or Association or even a HI club say that they are not required to list "life expediences" if it is mentioned at all in the SOP.

Now the caveat is that he who says it has to be able to defend their opinion based on fact and not their ego.

I have always made it a point to inform a buyer of what they will have to be prepared for in the next 8 to 10 years of home ownership, both in items and their potiental replacement costs.
And like Horton:
"I meant what I said and I said what I meant. I will back it up faithfully one-hundred percent!”


Now to have them listen to me and understand rather than allow emotion rule the purchase is another matter all together.:rant:


Personally I believe that it should be a requirement, but that would require more experience

[Jack Feldmann]

Lisa,
As far as I know, its been in the ASHI SOP longer than you have been involved in the HI industry. Since ASHI is a Member driven Association, the SOP was designed, and updated by committees, and voted on by the Membership.

Is it your position that reporting on something that is near the end of it's service life a bad idea.?

It's really not that hard to get an estimated life for home components. There are widely recognized sources for this information. I'm guessing that even InterNACHI has this information somewhere in their databases, and available for their members, and general public. Please correct me if I am wrong, that InterNACHI does not provide estimated service life data.

If InterNACHI does in fact provide service life estimates for equipment, but does not include it in its SOP, then I have to ask, to what end are you providing the information?

If you do not currently provide service life estimates for equipment, I have to ask, why not? I would guess that most inspectors (that are worth their weight), would like this information (if they don't already have it).

[Lisa Endza]

It's best to just give your clients this rather than trying to predict https://www.nachi.org/life-expectancy.htm

[Lisa Endza]

InterNACHI in the news again https://therealdeal.com/2017/04/28/home-inspections-are-the-no-1-real-estate-deal-killer-report/

[Jack Feldmann]

It's best to just give your clients this rather than trying to predict https://www.nachi.org/life-expectancy.htm

So an inspector will tell a client the age of the HVAC equipment (as an example), and give them your document. Explain to me how that is any different than telling a client that the same equipment is nearing the end of its expected service life?

There is a huge difference between telling someone the average life of XYZ is 7 - 10 years, and this one is 14 years old, and telling someone that this XYZ will die within 6 months.

Please explain InterNACHI's position on inspectors telling clients about equipment nearing the end of its expected service life. Your initial post appears to infer that InterNachi thinks its a bad idea. If that is the case, then why are you providing information on service life for your inspectors to hand out?

A little clarification please?

[Trent Tarter]

It's best to just give your clients this rather than trying to predict https://www.nachi.org/life-expectancy.htm

What a joke and a cop-out.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

You guys still hammering away at the largest recognised certifying home inspection association in North America?
Being happy and freely helping others combined with Great Education is highly rewarded.

I thought you astute professionals would have learned by now.
Oh well. Best of luck with all your endeavors.

[Jack Feldmann]

You guys still hammering away at the largest recognised certifying home inspection association in North America?
Being happy and freely helping others combined with Great Education is highly rewarded.

I thought you astute professionals would have learned by now.
Oh well. Best of luck with all your endeavors.

Robert,
I'm just asking for clarification on InterNACHI's stand on the topic that Lisa started. Since you are an InterNACHI inspector, maybe you can shed light on the policy of telling clients when something is nearing the end of its expected life?
My SOP state that I must report on things when they are near the end of their expected life. From what I gather from the article Lisa posted, InterNACHI does not require inspectors to tell clients when something is near the end of its service life. In fact, if I read the article correctly, some InterNACHI inspectors feel that home inspectors should not tell clients when something is near the end of its service life.
I have never read InterNACHI's SOP, so I don't really know if its in there or not. Lisa then posted that inspectors should just give out the InterNACHI document about expected service life instead of trying to predict. It seems like a contradiction to me, but possibly I am missing something in the translation.

My question has nothing to do with home inspector association size, certifying capability, or even comparing associations.
Since Lisa has not, or can not, answer my question directly, maybe you can answer the question, since you are an actual practicing home inspector, and an astute professional yourself.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

In TN, the SOP does not address calling out things "near the end of their service lives". However, since I am an ASHI member, the ASHI SOP does require that we report on things that are "near the end of their service lives".
Morning Jack. Hope you are in good health and spirits today.

As for the term, "near the end of their service lives." I concur about the importance of service life but will add, in some cases this can be difficult to nail down successfully.
I prefer two narratives, Vintage, Obsolete.

As to, "near the end of their service lives" the term serviceable has crept into soft inspection reports thus confusing the client.
Too bad.
So, Sad.

Were as the narrative vintage or obsolete express a more definitive view of the subject in question.


I think inspectors that do not report when things are near the end of their service lives, are doing a disservice to their clients. It can mean a significant expense to a new home owner if they have to replace a water heater, roof, and HVAC systems.
I concur.


I have found that most consumers have no idea how long components of a home are supposed to last. As inspectors, we know perfectly well that just because something is working (or appears to be working fine), does not mean that its just fine.

I agree, but even new component can fail catastrophically without warning.
We walk a fine line providing due diligence for our clients Jack.
Let's take HVAC equipment as an example. The company is out of business.
The boiler still has 13 years of service life. Cast iron boiler.
My clients says, almost 80% of it usefull life has completed. I want to negotiate.
My reply, it was operating successfully and can continue doing so until it fails or becomes unserviceable.

Much thanks for your view on the subject,"near the end of their service lives." Always enjoy your posts.
I use CD, Carson Dunlop, life expectancy when required.

Best regards.
Robert

[Robert Sheppard]

It's best to just give your clients this rather than trying to predict https://www.nachi.org/life-expectancy.htm


....LOL, I see some changes have been made since the last time that was posted. Service life is defined as the following:

(26) Service Life: Service life is the expected lifetime, or the acceptable period of use in service of a particular system or component. It is the time that any manufactured item can be expected to be “serviceable,” providing proper maintenance has taken place over the period concerned. Service life may vary from region to region, and inspection to inspection based on the home being inspected and the professional opinion and findings of the inspector.

Commenting on the "service life" of a system or component is not the same as "predicting future conditions"......not even close. Home inspection standards change from state to state, internachi's are far below our state standards and therefore irrelevant. In other words, teaching inspectors in our state to follow your standards would be a violation of rules for the profession.

If you knew anything about home inspections, you would know this.

[Lisa Endza]

Please explain InterNACHI's position on inspectors telling clients about equipment nearing the end of its expected service life. Your initial post appears to infer that InterNachi thinks its a bad idea. If that is the case, then why are you providing information on service life for your inspectors to hand out?

A little clarification please?

InterNACHI operates a free issue resolution service for home inspectors: Welcome to InterNACHI's Free Issue Resolution Service - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/issue-resolution)

Because like most humor, the cartoon I posted has some truth to it. Consumers often complain that a system or component didn't last quite as long as the inspector said it would. It's simply impossible to predict the exact day an air conditioner (for example) will fail. So to take the heat (and complaints) off of InterNACHI members, we recommend our members put that liability on InterNACHI instead by providing InterNACHI's Estimated Life Expectancy Chart. InterNACHI, being the world's largest inspection association and publisher of the document siphons off the complaints for our members.

The chart does two things at once: It peels off the liability from our members who would otherwise attempt the impossible, that being to accurately estimate life expectancy, while at the same time subliminally reminding homeowners that everything in their home (like human beings), is falling apart and will one day die.

[Robert Sheppard]

InterNACHI operates a free issue resolution service for home inspectors: Welcome to InterNACHI's Free Issue Resolution Service - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/issue-resolution)

Because like most humor, the cartoon I posted has some truth to it. Consumers often complain that a system or component didn't last quite as long as the inspector said it would. It's simply impossible to predict the exact day an air conditioner (for example) will fail. So to take the heat (and complaints) off of InterNACHI members, we recommend our members put that liability on InterNACHI instead by providing InterNACHI's Estimated Life Expectancy Chart. InterNACHI, being the world's largest inspection association and publisher of the document siphons off the complaints for our members.

The chart does two things at once: It peels off the liability from our members who would otherwise attempt the impossible, that being to accurately estimate life expectancy, while at the same time subliminally reminding homeowners that everything in their home (like human beings), is falling apart and will one day die.

There's the issue, inspectors are not required to comment on "life expectancy" but "service life". They are two vastly different things.

If you knew anything about home inspections, you would get this.....

[Lisa Endza]

Tell it to the consumer who calls and says "My inspector said I had three more years left on my water heater and it died after only two years."

InterNACHI does upwards of 20,000 inspections a day, (yes, I said a day), so we hear it all.

[Jack Feldmann]

Lisa,
I'm sure you missed my last post with a question, so Ill post it again.
Thanks

So an inspector will tell a client the age of the HVAC equipment (as an example), and give them your document. Explain to me how that is any different than telling a client that the same equipment is nearing the end of its expected service life?

There is a huge difference between telling someone the average life of XYZ is 7 - 10 years, and this one is 14 years old, and telling someone that this XYZ will die within 6 months.

Please explain InterNACHI's position on inspectors telling clients about equipment nearing the end of its expected service life. Your initial post appears to infer that InterNachi thinks its a bad idea. If that is the case, then why are you providing information on service life for your inspectors to hand out?

A little clarification please?

[Jerry Peck]

Tell it to the consumer who calls and says "My inspector said I had three more years left on my water heater and it died after only two years."

InterNACHI does upwards of 20,000 inspections a day, (yes, I said a day), so we hear it all.

It does not matter how many or how few inspections are done IN A LIFETIME ... NO INSPECTOR IN THEIR RIGHT MIND should say:

"My inspector said I had three more years left on my water heater and it died after only two years."

Being as EVERYTHING (except a ticking time bomb clock) as a LIFE RANGE (in years, months, days, etc) ... and thus an anticipated life expectancy ... based on that LIFE RANGE ... and from the date of manufacture to the date it is at the time of the inspection, the POTENTIAL REMAINING LIFE can be calculated:

LIFE RANGE (in years) 5-10

AGE (in years) 7 years old (based on date of manufacture)

POTENTIAL REMAINING LIFE (in years) 0-5

Formula to calculate POTENTIAL REMAINING LIFE

LIFE RANGE minus AGE equals POTENTIAL REMAINING LIFE

5-10 minus 7 equals 0-5

I certainly hope that NO ONE, not any school, not any association, not any organization, not any business, teaches or advises inspectors to give a concise and drop dead date of remaining life.

Let's see, that was manufactured on 01-01-2010, it has a life of 11 years, 4 months and 3 days, that mean it will stop working on 05-04-2021 ... being as this is 05-02-2017, that item will last another 4 years and 2 days ... really?

Is Lisa/Nick/whomever serious?

Even the ticking clock on the time bomb could fail and not cause the bomb to explode, allowing the ticking clock to either stop ticking or keep on ticking ... with nothing happening either way.

- - - Updated - - -


InterNACHI does upwards of 20,000 inspections a day, (yes, I said a day), so we hear it all.

I wanted to point this out separately ...

InterNACHI does upwards of 20,000 inspections a day,

Really?

I didn't know that all the inspectors were employees of yours ... I bet the IRS would love to find that out.

[Robert Sheppard]

Tell it to the consumer who calls and says "My inspector said I had three more years left on my water heater and it died after only two years."

InterNACHI does upwards of 20,000 inspections a day, (yes, I said a day), so we hear it all.

Can this really be that difficult to understand?

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting.....you're not an inspector.

[Lisa Endza]

Can this really be that difficult to understand? For some homebuyers, yes.


Oh yeah, I keep forgetting.....you're not an inspector.Neither are most homebuyers.

[Jerry Peck]

Remember - Lisa/Nicky/whoever stops by here frequently and 'goes fishing' ... usually ... one of us takes the bait ... and the struggle begins ... even though they are never able to reel one all the way in, I'm sure they enjoy the struggle.

Occasionally they 'seed the pond' and it looks like they catch one ... when they reel it in ... the rest recognize the plastic fish on the hook.

:D

[Garry Sorrells]

Jerry,
They seem to have teased you with the bait and made you looooook.:p

The hand out is more than likely just their way to prevent someone with little experience and/or a club inflated ego from making a statement that will back the HI into a corner. They want to leave the buyer making the inference of useful like rather than the HI saying it will last x years. Marketing and protection of HI. When you create a false sense of knowledge and experience you have to provide caveats to keep them from self inflected injury (lawsuits).

And yes I admit I am teased to the surface by the imitation bait. Now I must also admit I will wait to see if someone else takes the bait before me, while hoping that the fishermon will be ignored and just go away. Aaaaaaaah life's little hopes and dreams.:tsk:

[Lisa Endza]

Somewhat correct. InterNACHI, which is a third-party to the transaction and which is the largest home inspection association in the world, publishes that chart so that home inspectors aren't backed into a corner by consumers who not only expect that a home inspector has the magic ability to determine how long a system and component will last, but also idiotically relies on those guesstimates and then unconscionably tries to hold the home inspector responsible for systems and components that fail any earlier.

Push that liability off on us. We're good at handling it: Welcome to InterNACHI's Free Issue Resolution Service - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/issue-resolution)

[Jack Feldmann]

Lisa,
I'm still waiting for your response regarding InterNACHI's policy on inspectors telling their clients about something nearing the end of its expected life.

It should not be that hard. You seem to have document after document that you have available for your members. Surely, there should be a position statement regarding this. Or is the InterNACHI inspector quoted in the article acting as the InterNACHI spokesman on this matter?

Thanks for your prompt response.

[Robert Sheppard]

Remember - Lisa/Nicky/whoever stops by here frequently and 'goes fishing' ... usually ... one of us takes the bait ... and the struggle begins ... even though they are never able to reel one all the way in, I'm sure they enjoy the struggle.

Occasionally they 'seed the pond' and it looks like they catch one ... when they reel it in ... the rest recognize the plastic fish on the hook.

:D

Hey Jerry, did you read through the Florida specific life expectancy chart? This is some good stuff......concrete tile roof coverings are good for 80+ years.

https://www.nachi.org/florida-life-expectancy.htm

This is by far and away the best comment: "Florida inspectors are subject to state requirements for reporting deficiencies based on expected service life"

Lisa, I think we found your issue......lol

[Garry Sorrells]

I like "Boiler 40 (if installed)", what if the boiler is not installed? What is life if not installed?

Then there is the typical question of where did they come up with this chart. What is it based on and by what standards. Again absolutely no siting of any source or qualifications listed. Typical of poor writing and presentation of supposed facts. Just saying something does not make it so, yet they think it does.

[Lisa Endza]

I like "Boiler 40 (if installed)", what if the boiler is not installed? What is life if not installed? For many models, the shelf life of the boiler is less than its installed life because the gaskets dry out.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

Jack, what about Carson Dunlop LIFE CYCLES & COST (http://www.carsondunlop.com/hrbook/PDF/LifecyclesAndCosts.pdf)?
As you express to Lesa, and as a home inspector yourself, what do you not understand?

IMO, these two outstanding individual, Alain Carson and Bob Dunlop, known by "The Home Inspection Team", I suspect for SEO marketing juice, defined how to survey/inspect real estate property more than 37 or 38 years ago.
Most others somewhat infringed on copywriters and invented their own report systems doing so.
Are CD's LIFE CYCLES & COST not realistic?
Should CD trained home inspectors, as well as other certified home inspectors using the HORIZON reporting software not post age, life expectancy and costs?

[Robert Sheppard]

For many models, the shelf life of the boiler is less than its installed life because the gaskets dry out.


Which manufacturer told you this? Can you provide a source for this information?

- - - Updated - - -


Jack, what about Carson Dunlop LIFE CYCLES & COST (http://www.carsondunlop.com/hrbook/PDF/LifecyclesAndCosts.pdf)?
As you express to Lesa, and as a home inspector yourself, what do you not understand?

IMO, these two outstanding individual, Alain Carson and Bob Dunlop, known by "The Home Inspection Team", I suspect for SEO marketing juice, defined how to survey/inspect real estate property more than 37 or 38 years ago.
Most others somewhat infringed on copywriters and invented their own report systems doing so.
Are CD's LIFE CYCLES & COST not realistic?
Should CD trained home inspectors, as well as other certified home inspectors using the HORIZON reporting software not post age, life expectancy and costs?


Not sure how many times this needs to be said....."service life" is not the same as "life expectancy".

[Lisa Endza]

Alain Carson and Bob Dunlop, known by "The Home Inspection Team", I suspect for SEO marketing juice, defined how to survey/inspect real estate property more than 37 or 38 years ago.
Most others somewhat infringed on copywriters and invented their own report systems doing so.
Are CD's LIFE CYCLES & COST not realistic?If they are 37 years old, they probably aren't.

[Don Clendaniel]

I try to find install or manufacture dates on as many systems as I can and include them in the report, and I do note if they are older, but always as a comment, and if they operated at the time of inspection. Calling for a working hot water tank to be replaced simply because it's more than 10 years old is over the top in my opinion. And I am am just happy some of the houses I inspect have paint on the walls, I could not care less what color it is.

- - - Updated - - -

I try to find install or manufacture dates on as many systems as I can and include them in the report, and I do note if they are older, but always as a comment, and if they operated at the time of inspection. Calling for a working hot water tank to be replaced simply because it's more than 10 years old is over the top in my opinion. And I am am just happy some of the houses I inspect have paint on the walls, I could not care less what color it is.

[Lisa Endza]

Calling for a working hot water tank to be replaced simply because it's more than 10 years old is over the top in my opinion.Correct. It would be like declaring a healthy 80-year old man to be dead.

[Jerry Peck]

Correct. It would be like declaring a healthy 80-year old man to be dead.

Bad analogy ... nonetheless, though, even us humans have 'typical life expectancy' times ... which vary greatly based on where the human lives.

A better analogy would be that the 25 year old water heater has a typical life of 10 years, recommend replacement (or be prepared for failure and/or leakage and the resulting damage).

The "healthy" 80 year old man may be near failure and/or "already leaking" ... the difference is that there *is no replacement available* for the 80 year old man ... there is for the water heater.

[Lisa Endza]

Good post Jerry.

[Robert Sheppard]

Good post Jerry.


You didn't answer my question, here it is again.

What manufacturer told you this and can you provide a source for this information?

[Lisa Endza]

Gaskets dry out when not in use. Note the right column of the chart in the attached PDF which lists the shelf life of rubber gaskets being substantially less then the life expectancy of a boiler in use: http://www.shurjoint.com/Files/Chn/DLVTechnologies/B-32%20Gasket%20Shelf%20Life-RevB.pdf

[Robert Sheppard]

Gaskets dry out when not in use. Note the right column of the chart in the attached PDF which lists the shelf life of rubber gaskets being substantially less then the life expectancy of a boiler in use: http://www.shurjoint.com/Files/Chn/DLVTechnologies/B-32%20Gasket%20Shelf%20Life-RevB.pdf


I am very familiar with those products. Of the 7 listed, which one's are you referencing and for what application?

;-)

- - - Updated - - -


For many models, the shelf life of the boiler is less than its installed life because the gaskets dry out.


.........just a reminder of what you said.

[Lisa Endza]

Our Life Expectancy Chart doesn't distinguish between all the different boiler manufacturers, nor the different models, nor the different materials used in each of them, nor the manufacturers of those materials. It doesn't even list the shelf life of them (it assumes and states "installed" life).

If we did all that for every system and every component, the chart would be 1,000 pages long and not very useful to our members.

https://www.nachi.org/life-expectancy.htm has two very specific purposes: One has to do with reducing liability for our members and the other has to do with helping our members' clients realize that everything in their home will one day need to be repaired or replaced. It serves those two purposes well.

[Robert Sheppard]

Our Life Expectancy Chart doesn't distinguish between all the different boiler manufacturers, nor the different models, nor the different materials used in each of them, nor the manufacturers of those materials. It doesn't even list the shelf life of them (it assumes and states "installed" life).

If we did all that for every system and every component, the chart would be 1,000 pages long and not very useful to our members.

https://www.nachi.org/life-expectancy.htm has two very specific purposes: One has to do with reducing liability for our members and the other has to do with helping our members' clients realize that everything in their home will one day need to be repaired or replaced. It serves those two purposes well.

......of the 7 you provided with the pdf, which type were you referencing with the above statement on boilers?

[Lisa Endza]

First off, does it matter? They all have shelf lifes that are less then the life expectancy of an installed boiler. You asked why we noted that we were referring to "installed" boilers. That's why. Some installed boilers have an installed life expectancy that is greater than the shelf-life of their own parts.

Second, our chart doesn't provide that info for reasons I explained.

Third, the purpose of our chart is not to provide outrageously-detailed information about materials used in all the various models by all the various manufacturers. It's designed to help InterNACHI members accomplish two things, both have much to do with reducing liability. InterNACHI owns 1/2 of its E&O insurance program and this is one of the ways it keeps claims down. Listing or even knowing "which of the 7 types of rubber gasket" is used in each model of each boiler does not help keep claims down and would likely detract the recipient from grasping the chart's intended underlying theme.

[Robert Sheppard]

First off, does it matter? They all have shelf lifes that are less then the shelf life of an installed boiler.

Second, our chart doesn't provide that info for reasons I explained.

Third, the purpose of our chart is not to provide outrageously-detailed information about materials used in all the various models by all the various manufacturers. It's designed to help InterNACHI members accomplish two things, both have much to do with reducing liability. InterNACHI owns 1/2 of its E&O insurance program and this is one of the ways it keeps claims down. Listing or even knowing "which of the 7 types of rubber gasket" is used in each model of each boiler does not help keep claims down.

Yes, it does matter. Each of those 7 materials has an approved use by the manufacturer that is not listed on the document you provided.

Specifically, which are you referencing for use with a "boiler"?

[Lisa Endza]

I don't know. All I can tell you is what is in the chart, the goal of the chart, and whether an addition to the chart would increase or decrease the the intended underlying theme of the chart which is necessary to achieve the chart's goal of helping InterNACHI members.

If you want to know what parts of a boiler have a shelf life that are less than the installed life expectancy of that boiler, I suggest you contact the manufacturer. I can give you some contacts if you need them.

[Robert Sheppard]

I don't know. All I can tell you is what is in the chart, the goal of the chart, and whether an addition to the chart would increase or decrease the the intended underlying theme of the chart which is necessary to achieve the chart's goal of helping InterNACHI members.

If you want to know what parts of a boiler have a shelf life that are less than the installed life expectancy of that boiler, I suggest you contact the manufacturer. I can give you some contacts if you need them.


None of them are approved for use with a "boiler" Lisa. A boiler is a steam pressure vessel, the gaskets would need to be rated for upwards of 1200 degrees.


http://www.henniggasket.com/boiler-gaskets-seals


All kidding aside, you need to understand that the people around you may not be as educated as you think. As you have said before, you are not really an association of inspectors.

[Lisa Endza]

And the gasket manufacturer you linked to makes all the gaskets and rubber parts to all boilers?

[Robert Sheppard]

And the gasket manufacturer you linked to makes all the gaskets and rubber parts to all boilers?



.........does the one you posted to imply the service life of a uninstalled boiler?

:p

[Lisa Endza]

So you are 100% certain that the shelf life of every part of every boiler is no less than its service life?

[Robert Sheppard]

So you are 100% certain that the shelf life of every part of every boiler is no less than its service life?


I don't inspect boilers Lisa, haven't seen one in south Florida. I also don't wonder around home Depot inspecting uninstalled boilers. But I do know a thing or two about them, apparently more than you.

The chart you provided doesn't even have materials that are approved for use with a boiler....yet you tried anyway and were caught in a lie.

Have a nice day.......;)

[Lisa Endza]

I don't inspect boilers Lisa, haven't seen one in south Florida.I gathered that much. So you aren't willing to state whether the shelf life of any part of a residential hydronic boiler is less than the boiler's installed life expectancy?

[Robert Sheppard]

I gathered that much. So you aren't willing to state whether the shelf life of any part of a residential hydronic boiler is less than the boiler's installed life expectancy?


Which shelf is it on (cheeky)? What temperature is the unit being stored at? What humidity levels is it stored at? Are they exposed to light?

Lots of variables in your question Lisa....and your free lesson for today is over.

[Lisa Endza]

Not true. Don't try to wiggle out.

There are no variables if you are stating that no part of a boiler has a shelf life less than the installed life expectancy of that boiler.

There are only variables if you believe the reverse, that there could be parts of a boiler that have shelf lifes less than the installed life expectancy of the boiler.

Since you believe there are variables, you must believe the latter, in which case you agree with InterNACHI.

[Robert Sheppard]

Not true. Don't try to wiggle out.

There are no variables if you are stating that no part of a boiler has a shelf life less than the installed life expectancy of that boiler.

There are only variables if you believe the reverse, that there could be parts of a boiler that have shelf lifes less than the installed life expectancy of the boiler.

Since you believe there are variables, you must believe the latter, in which case you agree with InterNACHI.


You never actually read the document you posted....did you?

Read it from top to bottom Lisa.....or are we not talking about that anymore? I would have changed the subject too.

[Robert Sheppard]

Not true. Don't try to wiggle out.

There are no variables if you are stating that no part of a boiler has a shelf life less than the installed life expectancy of that boiler.

There are only variables if you believe the reverse, that there could be parts of a boiler that have shelf lifes less than the installed life expectancy of the boiler.

Since you believe there are variables, you must believe the latter, in which case you agree with InterNACHI.

You know, it’s almost like you just can’t accept anything unless it comes from your group. “Service life” varies from region to region and even inspection to inspection based on the home being inspected and the professional opinion and findings of the inspector. All “variables”Lisa.

Case in point, a shingle roof covering installed in north Florida may last 4-6 years longer than the same exact roof covering installed in south Florida. “life expectancy” is not a one-shoe-fits-all process as you have implied. There are “variables”…….I don’t know why this is so hard to understand.

It’s like you create something based on nothing, then try to make the nothing something so you can feel like you accomplished something. Take a step back and consult the experts Lisa, not those who keep telling you they are.

[Lisa Endza]

“Service life” varies from region to region For some systems and components. Not for most others.

You could actually have a chart for every region, every system/component manufacturer, every installation practice, every level of usage, etc.

But again, that wouldn't affect the intended underlying purpose of the chart. Remember, the chart has two purposes, both have to do with lessening InterNACHI member liability.

It's not a chart to look up exactly how long your water heater will last, because no chart can tell you that about your particular water heater.

[Jack Feldmann]

Lisa, Why is it you will answer/argue post after post, yet not answer a direct question?

I asked a question that you should be able to answer within seconds. InterNACHI, I would hope, has policy and procedures documented.

Could you please share the InterNACHI policy for inspectors telling their clients about the expected life of equipment. On one hand you are handing out a document that has expected life of various components, but in the article, there is an InterNACHI inspector that appears to be claiming that InterNACHI policy is to NOT tell clients about expected life.

Is Walter Fish the Official InterNACI spokesman on SOP and Policy and Procedures? The article certainly makes it look like he is speaking for InterNACHI when he says that inspectors have no business telling clients about expected service life of equipment. Perhaps he is not aware of the document where you are giving out the expected life of various components.

If he is giving misinformation about InterNACHI SOP and P&P's, then you may want to advise him not to speak to the press as a representative of InterNACHI. If he is the Official Spokesman for InterNACHI, then maybe he can come on this forum and answer this question.

Please clarify! It shouldn't be that hard.

[Lisa Endza]

Could you please share the InterNACHI policy for inspectors telling their clients about the expected life of equipment.Our SOP does not require members to do it: 2.1 - VIII of Home Inspection Standards of Practice - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/sop)

The reason InterNACHI members should hand out the chart is to emphasize to their client that they are NOT predicting the life expectancy of one of the PARTICULAR systems or components of the home they inspected, but instead providing a pre-authored, pre-printed chart that is clearly NOT referring to any particular system or component of the home that was inspected.

We've been at this for many years and this is the only way we've found that doesn't cause the consumer to later blame the home inspector, should something fail earlier than expected.

Click on image: 33459

[Robert Sheppard]

Our SOP does not require members to do it: 2.1 - VIII of Home Inspection Standards of Practice - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/sop)

The reason InterNACHI members should hand out the chart is to emphasize to their client that they are NOT predicting the life expectancy of one of the PARTICULAR systems or components of the home they inspected, but instead providing a pre-authored, pre-printed chart that is clearly NOT referring to any particular system or component of the home that was inspected.

We've been at this for many years and this is the only way we've found that doesn't cause the consumer to later blame the home inspector, should something fail earlier than expected.

Click on image: 33459

Nick told me he hasn't performed a home inspection "in 20 years". I took a screen shot of the statement if you would like to see it.

You are not an inspector of any kind Lisa, you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. You are parroting what another person tells you while completely ignoring those who are experts in the profession. You can not be taught or educated in any way in the profession because you have no experience to discern what is and isn't truth.

[Lisa Endza]

Note my title at InterNACHI. I can take a screenshot from Good people working every day to help your inspection business succeed. - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/staff) if you would like to see it.

My job is to find the answers to your questions and relay them to you.

As for Nick not doing having performed a home inspection in 20 years, I confirmed you are correct. He only does commercial inspections these days.

[Robert Sheppard]

Note my title at InterNACHI. I can take a screenshot from Good people working every day to help your inspection business succeed. - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/staff) if you would like to see it.

My job is to find the answers to your questions and relay them to you.

As for Nick not doing having performed a home inspection in 20 years, I confirmed you are correct. He only does commercial inspections these days.


LOL........


You are not an inspector of any kind Lisa, you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. You are parroting what another person tells you while completely ignoring those who are experts in the profession. You can not be taught or educated in any way in the profession because you have no experience to discern what is and isn't truth.

[Robert Sheppard]

Note my title at InterNACHI. I can take a screenshot from Good people working every day to help your inspection business succeed. - InterNACHI (http://www.nachi.org/staff) if you would like to see it.

My job is to find the answers to your questions and relay them to you.

As for Nick not doing having performed a home inspection in 20 years, I confirmed you are correct. He only does commercial inspections these days.


Your entire association is this way. I constantly supply accurate and verifiable information to your inspectors who can't seem to grasp it. All they do is resist any information that contradicts what they are currently doing. You can't learn....they can't learn....you could tell them and show them, they just continue doing what they were doing.

And what's worse is that you association has zero checks and balances.....a 4 member board that nobody knows what they are doing. Bad inspections are actually rewarded in your association.

What is it with you that you can't process information?

[Lisa Endza]

I've read some of the responses to your posts on InterNACHI's message board. Why do so many claim you don't know what you are talking about, if you actually do?

[Robert Sheppard]

I've read some of the responses to your posts on InterNACHI's message board. Why do so many claim you don't know what you are talking about, if you actually do?


"Your entire association is this way. I constantly supply accurate and verifiable information to your inspectors who can't seem to grasp it. All they do is resist any information that contradicts what they are currently doing. You can't learn....they can't learn....you could tell them and show them, they just continue doing what they were doing."

[Lisa Endza]

"Your entire association is this way. .... they just continue doing what they were doing."

And how's that working out for us?

[Robert Sheppard]

And how's that working out for us?



Not too well if you are putting out a pdf on life expectancy to keep your inspectors customers from suing them......

This right here is your issue, big head syndrome. It blocks any and all information that contradicts your opinion from being absorbed.

[Jack Feldmann]

Thanks for posting your response Lisa.

If I read this all correctly, InterNACHI SOP tells inspectors not to comment on expected life, yet provide a document that lists the expected life of components, and encourage your inspectors to give it to their clients.

This appears to me to be a huge contradiction. If I was a client, and received a document that called out an expected life of a gas furnace (as an example), and my house had a gas furnace, and my inspector told me how old it was (most inspectors make a note of equipment age, or include a photo of the label), I could easily do the math an determine something was at the end of its life.

While my inspector may not have directly told me my furnace was near the end of its expected life, he or she certainly gave me all the information needed to make that conclusion.

So, is the inspector violating the InterNACHI SOP's by giving out the document, or in fact telling the client about expected life, without actually telling them? I'm very confused about INterNACHI's policy on this.

Could you elaborate on this policy?

[Jerry Peck]

Could you elaborate on this policy?

Jack.

Her responses are like the NAHI thing ... first, they claim that Nick took over NAHI ... then that Nick is suing NAHI ... then that NAHI is dead ... that all indicates that Nick was so bad at running NAHI that it died at his hands - but they will tell you a different story, depending on what they want you to believe or think at the time.

The same thing applies here - it all depends on what they want you to believe or think at the time of the posts, without apparent respect for tying the information together in any coherent manner or where it does not contradict itself.

[Lisa Endza]

If I was a client, and received a document that called out an expected life of a gas furnace (as an example), and my house had a gas furnace, and my inspector told me how old it was (most inspectors make a note of equipment age, or include a photo of the label), I could easily do the math an determine something was at the end of its life.

Correct. That's what we want them to do, if they want to. This is a much better option than the InterNACHI member doing the impossible and guestimating how long something will last, which only leads to the consumer complaining when the guestimate is wrong (which it always is).

- - - Updated - - -


Her responses are like the NAHI thing ... first, they claim that Nick took over NAHI ... then that Nick is suing NAHI ... then that NAHI is dead.

No, we said that Nick is Executive Director of NAHI... he is.
We said that InterNACHI sued NAHI... they did.
We said that NAHI is dead... it is.

[Jerry Peck]

No, we said that Nick is Executive Director of NAHI... he is.
We said that InterNACHI sued NAHI... they did.
We said that NAHI is dead... it is.

I repeat - with your quote above - and you don't see the contradiction in what you said?

Really?

[Jack Feldmann]

Lisa said....."Correct. That's what we want them to do, if they want to. This is a much better option than the InterNACHI member doing the impossible and guestimating how long something will last, which only leads to the consumer complaining when the guestimate is wrong (which it always is)."

Lisa, This is where I am confused. If I tell my client that the average life of a gas furnace is U - Z years (Like your chart does), and their unit is is Y years old, how am I doing anything different than your InterNACHI inspector giving them your handout?

Why is what I am doing "impossible and guesstimating"? Isn't your chart "guesstimating". If so, InterNACHI is guilty of doing the impossible and guesstimating, and if it isn't guesstimating, then are you telling someone when a piece of equipment is nearing the end of its expected service life? And, then isn't that against the InterNACHI SOP?

Do you understand my confusion? It appears to me to be a contradiction, and/or mixed message. At the very least, a very unclear message / policy.

[Lisa Endza]

Why is what I am doing "impossible and guesstimating"? Isn't your chart "guesstimating".

No.

When you are on an inspection at a particular home with a particular client looking at a particular system or component, you are guesstimating life expectancy of that system or component. And you're almost never going to be correct.

InterNACHI's third-party, pre-authored, pre-printed chart is clearly not referencing anyone's particular system or component. It's providing average life expectancies. And so you're never going to be wrong.

It being a pre-authored, pre-printed chart is what makes that very evident to the consumer so that they don't blame you for inaccuracy.

It's analogous to trying to predict exactly when a particular 75 year-old man will die as opposed to pointing to a chart that reveals the life expectancy of 75-year old men.

See the difference yet?

[Jerry Peck]

Jack,

Lisa is saying (admitting) that no knowledge (generic gobbly-gook) is, in their opinion, better than knowledge.

You will never win an argument against lack of knowledge like that.

[Jack Feldmann]

No.

When you are on an inspection at a particular home with a particular client looking at a particular system or component, you are guesstimating life expectancy of that system or component. And you're almost never going to be correct.

InterNACHI's third-party, pre-authored, pre-printed chart is clearly not referencing anyone's particular system or component. It's providing average life expectancies. And so you're never going to be wrong.

It being a pre-authored, pre-printed chart is what makes that very evident to the consumer so that they don't blame you for inaccuracy.

It's analogous to trying to predict exactly when a particular 75 year-old man will die as opposed to pointing to a chart that reveals the life expectancy of 75-year old men.

See the difference yet?

I'll try once again.... First of all, its quite simple to determine the age of the equipment that is installed at the property (most of the time), since many times the actual date is printed on the label. Second, since I am giving my clients the same information (sort of) of average life that you are. For instance a gas furnace expected life is X - Y years. How is that different than what you are proposing?

The second part of my question was not answered. I asked..."So, is the inspector violating the InterNACHI SOP's by giving out the document, or in fact telling the client about expected life, without actually telling them? I'm very confused about INterNACHI's policy on this."

It seems like a contradiction in your SOP, and what Mr. Fish was saying inspectors should never do. Is he giving out incorrect information, when he is acting as a spokesman for InterNACHI?

[Robert Sheppard]

I'll try once again.... First of all, its quite simple to determine the age of the equipment that is installed at the property (most of the time), since many times the actual date is printed on the label. Second, since I am giving my clients the same information (sort of) of average life that you are. For instance a gas furnace expected life is X - Y years. How is that different than what you are proposing?

The second part of my question was not answered. I asked..."So, is the inspector violating the InterNACHI SOP's by giving out the document, or in fact telling the client about expected life, without actually telling them? I'm very confused about INterNACHI's policy on this."

It seems like a contradiction in your SOP, and what Mr. Fish was saying inspectors should never do. Is he giving out incorrect information, when he is acting as a spokesman for InterNACHI?

she's not going to get it......she'll never get it.....you are having a argument with someone who has no idea what you are talking about. You are not even having the conversation with Lisa. You ask the question, and she runs back to whoever for an answer.......

[Garry Sorrells]

........You are not even having the conversation with Lisa. You ask the question, and she runs back to whoever for an answer.......

By George I think you've got it. Hit the nail on the head. May be an intern or a homeless person at the keyboard.

[Marc M]

Friggin realtors... Idiots.

[ROBERT YOUNG]

I was going to post this article. Seeing how it is taken I am happy I did not.

I fail to see why Lisa is again the target of three men.

Robert S. You provided Florida DEPARTMENT OF BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONAL REGULATION SOP.Does Florida's SOP supersede North America's 51 States and 11 provinces association SOP?

Lisa is correct, we do not predict. How can we?
Are you suggesting an appliance or system that has been poorly maintained, YET made to look maintained during the sale will last it's intended life cycle?

Life cycles. AC/Air Conditioners in cool/cold climates appear out preform their cycle as compared to AC units in warn/hot climates under normal use.
Water heaters will last much longer when maintained (http://www.paccoastplumbing.com/about-us/blog/water-heater-repair/4-tips-to-make-your-water-heater-last-longer/).
Oldest water heater I observed, 1923. Retrofit to NG. A museum piece and still operational.

IMO, the age of an item, serial number, if recalls are in-place, combined with a link to material life expectancy and cost works for me. By providing age, condition and a link to average life cycle I feel provides enough information to the clients.

Jack F., how can/does a home inspector scrutinize a near of end life to a component? Most home inspectors are not technicians nor trades professionals. By giving remarks pertaining to the life cycle is in essence predicting, or looking into the future.

[Garry Sorrells]

........

InterNACHI's third-party, pre-authored, pre-printed chart ....... And so you're never going to be wrong.

It being a pre-authored, pre-printed chart ......so that they don't blame you for inaccuracy.

..........



............ since I am giving my clients the same information (sort of) ........ How is that different than what you are proposing?

.............."So, is the inspector violating the InterNACHI SOP's by giving out the document, or in fact telling the client about expected life, without actually telling them? .......

...........

Jack,
You are looking for logic and honesty where there is none.

The NACHE intent in this particular handout appears purposeful to relieve the HI from liability by shifting any conclusions to be drawn to the "client". Pretty much it is another method to allow the "Certified" members to claim that the "client" is responsible for what ever inference that they make by relying on a nebulous chart rather than the experience of their payed HI. Another method to allow for the appearance of an "experienced professional" without being one.


The document that they are using, like most that I have seen including their own authored articles/documents which they use to support their own authored articles/documents, do not list any supporting citations or references of who, how and where the basis for their presumed expertise were derived not to mention their conclusions.

Credible authors site their supporting citations and references. Consistently I see a lack of professionalism in their articles, documents, material offered as books, pamphlets, charts or even their educational formats.



I was going to post this article. Seeing how it is taken I am happy I did not.

I fail to see why Lisa is again the target of three men.

.....................

Robert,
Maybe you should have posrted the link/article. Even if it may have been a carryover from an association's forum. The thread may have taken a different direction, or not.

:confused: WHY????? Targeting??? :confused:
You seem to think there is some kind of sexual discrimination taking place. Which seems at times to be the first fall back position to redirect attention when someone can not support a position or statement.

The question of Lisa's gender has often been questioned as has been the actual authoring of posts in Lisa's name.

You deem it targeting by "men", when it is actually a changeling discussion by Home Inspectors, Engineers, building professionals and others with years of actual hands on experience in many areas which make them truly "Professionals". Those profesionals that will not accept on blind faith the utterances of any one person or organization. Those that look to logic and substance to support a position or argument.

No, it is not targeting. It is more of the adage; "If you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen.". All that enter the forum are subject to the same questioning. If nothing else the forum is very democratic. Anyone's ox is subject to being gored yet they also are subject to adulation and praise. Equal opprotunity forum.

Though forum members and guests may not be from the "Show-ME State" (Missouri) the concept is held by many though sadly not all.

[Robert Sheppard]

I was going to post this article. Seeing how it is taken I am happy I did not.

I fail to see why Lisa is again the target of three men.

Robert S. You provided Florida DEPARTMENT OF BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONAL REGULATION SOP.Does Florida's SOP supersede North America's 51 States and 11 provinces association SOP?

Lisa is correct, we do not predict. How can we?
Are you suggesting an appliance or system that has been poorly maintained, YET made to look maintained during the sale will last it's intended life cycle?

Life cycles. AC/Air Conditioners in cool/cold climates appear out preform their cycle as compared to AC units in warn/hot climates under normal use.
Water heaters will last much longer when maintained (http://www.paccoastplumbing.com/about-us/blog/water-heater-repair/4-tips-to-make-your-water-heater-last-longer/).
Oldest water heater I observed, 1923. Retrofit to NG. A museum piece and still operational.

IMO, the age of an item, serial number, if recalls are in-place, combined with a link to material life expectancy and cost works for me. By providing age, condition and a link to average life cycle I feel provides enough information to the clients.

Jack F., how can/does a home inspector scrutinize a near of end life to a component? Most home inspectors are not technicians nor trades professionals. By giving remarks pertaining to the life cycle is in essence predicting, or looking into the future.

In our state, yes! That was the point.

Lisa makes no sense.....the document was produced to take the heat off of their inspectors? Tell me again how inachi is legally liable for ANY home inspection performed by one of their inspectors?

If they would like to assume that liability.....now that's another story. If they are legally liable for the inspections their members perform, we have a slight issue with conflict of interest in the buy-back program.

[Jerry Peck]

Now Robert, calm down, you know that nothing out of that company (they try to make people think it is an association of its members, but it is privately owned by one person, so I call it what it is - a company) ... nothing out of that company is to be taken seriously.

If the inspector hands something out ... that inspector is responsible for what they hand out ... plain and simply.

No different than if the inspector was to hand out acid laced chewing gum - the inspector would be liable for that too.

It is all just smoke and mirrors over there, look closely and you will find that guy 'behind the curtain' making all the moves ... as the old movie said 'pay no attention to that person behind the curtain' ... so says the All Powerful Wizard of Oz ... follow the yellow brick road to riches is what they profess. The Wicked Witch of the West is always just around the corner to scare the bejesus out of you.