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Mike Schulz
12-18-2007, 04:50 PM
I did an inspection on a new home that the door in the breakfast room is at a inside corner. When the door opens it swings to the adjacent walls window where the handle lines up with the center of the glass. There is a door stop and even if it wasn't there the handle alone would probably not hit the glass because of its inset in the wall. Your hand on the handle might. The builder says it doesn't have to be tempered because it's not on the same wall as the door.
Could someone enlighten me on this. Also could you explain this part of the code in laymens terms. (Glazing in an individual fixed or operable panel adjacent to and within the
same plane as a door where the nearest vertical edge is within 24" arc of
the door in a closed position)

What do they mean by: adjacent to and within the
same plane
What do they mean by: nearest vertical edge is within 24" arc of
the door in a closed position

Thanks

Jerry Peck
12-18-2007, 05:45 PM
What do they mean by: adjacent to and within the same plane

"The same plane" means "in the same wall". In other words, when you walk up toward a door in the wall, a window in that wall, not one which is at an angle to it. The reason is so that you are not injured if you poke you hand (or entire body) through the window in the same direction as which you are reaching out for the door. That same risk is not present to windows in walls at an angle to the wall with the door.

What do they mean by: nearest vertical edge is within 24" arc of the door in a closed position

With the door closed, you take measure 24" out from the edges of the door in all directions, and, any glazing within that arc, AND, within 60" of the floor, AND, in the same plane as the door.

If that arc passes through a window in an 'adjacent window' in a wall which is at an angle to the door wall ('not' in the same plane), OR, which the bottom is greater than 60" above the floor, than safety glazing is not required. UNLESS ... 7. Glazing in an individual fixed or operable panel other than those locations described in Items 5 or 6 above, that meets all of the following conditions: (you know the list)

That means that the window, which is exempted from 6., is covered if it meets ALL of the conditions in 7, regardless how close to, or far from, the door it is.

Does that help?

Mike Schulz
12-18-2007, 06:36 PM
Then I guess the window in question doesn't need to be tempered. Strange though if reaching out to open is covered but swinging open isn't.

Thank you Jerry and Merry Christmas!

Eric Shuman
12-18-2007, 07:13 PM
With the door closed, you take measure 24" out from the edges of the door in all directions, and, any glazing within that arc, AND, within 60" of the floor, AND, in the same plane as the door.

If that arc passes through a window in an 'adjacent window' in a wall which is at an angle to the door wall ('not' in the same plane), OR, which the bottom is greater than 60" above the floor, than safety glazing is not required.

Red is highlighted by me.

Jerry, I am trying to determine if I am reading exception #4 to R308.4 Hazardous locations. (IRC 2006) correctly. What is your take?

Here it is:

...Exception: The following products, materials and uses are exempt from the above hazardous locations:...

...4. Glazing in section R308.4, item 6 in walls perpindicular to the plane of the door in a closed position, other than the wall to which the door swings when opened, or where access through the door is to a closet or storage area 3 feet (914 mm) or less in depth. Glazingin these applications shall comply with sections R308.4, Item 7.

Isn't the highlighted red of this exception saying that windows in the perpindicular wall to which the door swings would not be included in the exception? It sounds like the the door that Mike has described swings to a perpindicular wall where a window is located and would thus need to be tempered.

Thanks,

Eric

Jerry Peck
12-18-2007, 09:10 PM
Eric,

It is a convoluted section, to say the least.

Here is one big goof I made: I responded to the posted code wording without verifying its wording in the code. I explained what the posted wording meant. I did a super bang up job of explaining what was posted, however, ...

After your post (and what I should have done at first) I checked the wording in the code and found that the IRC (the 2003 and 2006 versions anyway) does not address 'the plane of the door' in the 'inclusions', only in the 'exclusions', and that only the 2006 references that exception to the exception for the wall the door opens to you are referring to.

From the 2006 IRC.
- 1) includes the glazing in doors, except jalousies
- 2) includes the glazing in fixed and sliding panels sliding glass doors, and sliding and bifold closet doors
- 3) includes the glazing in storm doors to be safety glazing
- 4) includes the glazing in all unframed glass doors
- 5) includes the glazing in doors and enclosures for tubs, showers, etc., and any glazing within 60" of the floor in walls around those items
- 6) includes the glazing adjacent to a door and within 24" of that door and is within 60" of the walking surface - there is no 'plane of the door' in there (thus, my explanation and the exceptions based on not being in 'the plane of the door' are invalid as I was thinking of the 'inclusions', not the 'exclusions')
- 7) includes the glazing in locations for other than 5) and 6) above which meet all those next four requirements
- 8) includes the glazing in railings
- 9) includes the glazing in wall and fences around swimming pools and which is within 60" of the walking surface and are within 60" of the water
- 10) includes glazing adjacent to stairways, etc., which is within 36" horizontally and within 60" above the stair, ramp, etc.
- 11) includes the glazing within 60" horizontally and within 60" vertically of the nose of the bottom tread
(that's all the 'includes' parts)
(these are the 'excluded' parts)
- 1) except for openings in doors smaller than what a 3" sphere can pass through (basically a balled up fist or outstretched open hand is the intent)
- 2) except for decorative glass in Items 1), 6) or 7) above (decorative glass is intended to mean 'glass made of small pieces of glass such as in 'stained glass' panels where the glass is already broken up into small pieces)
- 3) except for where there is some protection between glazing in Item 6 above and the door it is adjacent to
- 4) except for where the glazing is not in the same plane as the door - except for a wall to which the door swings to (this is what you are asking, it is a double negative, an exception to an exception, meaning, yes, the wall the door opens to is 'included')
- 5) except for where protective bars are installed for Items 7 and 10 above
- 6) except for the outboard panels of Item 7 above if they outboard panels are 25 feet or higher above grade
- 7) except for louvered windows and jalousies is 3/16" thick or greater and 48" long or shorter
- 8) except for mirrors and glass panels which are solidly backed
- 9) except for Items 10 and 11 above where the glazing meets the requirements of those two referenced sections of the IBC, the glass is more than 18" from the railing, and there is a protective wall or panel which would protect the panel like a protective bar would
- 10) except for glass block

All the above would not have to have been said if I had gone and verified the code wording the first time and found that it was an 'exception' instead of an 'inclusion'.

Under the 2003 IRC, what I said would have been correct (even though I was thinking it was under 'inclusions' instead of 'exceptions').

Under the 2006 IRC, it was not correct for the wall the door opens to.

Eric Shuman
12-19-2007, 08:38 AM
Eric,

It is a convoluted section, to say the least.

Jerry,

You're not joking about that! It is especially tricky with new construction around my neck of the woods as the city of Austin is on the IRC 2000 and the surrounding cities (of which the boundries all merge pretty much seamlessly now) use the IRC 2006. I am having to constantly double check the map book and the two editions. The good thing is of course that the more I reference the two editions, the more sections I remember relative to whatever area I am working in.

I have had a few "discussions" with builder's reps about this section this year it is not always easy to translate it to them due to the intricate wording. One such discussion (on new construction) led to the homebuyer having to call in the B.O. to convince the builder that the glass was required where I had noted it being absent.

Ahh, the joy of technical writing. Sometimes I miss the days of good old fictional prose! :D

Eric

Mark Northrup
12-17-2008, 10:14 AM
I was just wondering you guys talk about code alot. is it required in texas to report on code items and do you mention them in your reports. In the state of oregon in the scope of the inspection (standards by the state) it states that the inspection is not a code inspector. And my training has always stated stay away from mentioning code items. Just wondering.

Jim Luttrall
12-17-2008, 10:23 AM
We (Texas Real Estate Inspectors) are not code inspectors, but everything we do is based on the codes. When dealing with Builders, having the relevant code at hand solves many conflicts for reasonable builders... if you can find any of those.
In the new SOP effective Feb. 1st, we will be required to call out several issues that are not required yet in most of the state. (I.e. lack of AFCI protection as defined by the 2008 NEC)

Michael Thomas
12-17-2008, 12:59 PM
Summer before last I was inspecting a house owned by a recent widow in her 70s.

At the southeast corner of south kitchen wall there was a sliding glass door with the sliding pane at the corner in the south wall.

On the adjacent (east) wall were three large fixed pane windows about 24" wide, starting about 18 inches off the floor with their tops even with the top of the sliding door, with the right hand (south) window starting about a foot out from the corner.

As I was checking the for the bugs (not present) and the seals I noticed that the glass at the second window in from the corner had recently been replaced (with a similar non-tempered unit).

The seller happened be standing there and I asked her about it.

"My husband fell through that window when he slipped because the floor in front of the door was wet "

I did not ask her if that was why she was a recent widow, but that this may have been the one time that I've actually met Jerry's "surviving spouse".

John Wilcox
01-09-2009, 10:31 PM
Basically if you have a window within 24" arch of a door (or any part a door may contact) it must be tempered(including sliding glass). Relatively all glass in doors must be tempered (obviously) tempered glass bears permanent etching look for it!!!

John Wilcox
01-09-2009, 10:35 PM
That window you speak of must be tempered laminated etc. if a door plus hand etc. can touch it.

John Wilcox
01-09-2009, 10:38 PM
"The same plane" means "in the same wall". In other words, when you walk up toward a door in the wall, a window in that wall, not one which is at an angle to it. The reason is so that you are not injured if you poke you hand (or entire body) through the window in the same direction as which you are reaching out for the door. That same risk is not present to windows in walls at an angle to the wall with the door.

So technically speaking I could place a non- tempered window adjacent to a door that swung into it?

John Wilcox
01-09-2009, 11:00 PM
Mike,
In essence they mean add two feet to the door, if any of that extension meets glass
(even while the door swings) it must be tempered.

Jerry McCarthy
01-10-2009, 11:31 AM
One diagram is worth a thousand words. :D

Jerry Peck
01-10-2009, 12:38 PM
One diagram is worth a thousand words. :D

That drawing is not up-to-date and does not reflect the exception in the 2006 IRC.

Added with edit: Let me re-phrase that - it depends on the swing of the door, which is not shown (and which is what threw me off, and what makes that drawing confusing).

Mike Schulz
01-10-2009, 03:31 PM
If I am looking at that diagram right that swing would require safety glazing would it not.
It's within 24" and swings into perpendicular windows.

Change the wording to needs to be tempered and it would be correct, would it not.........

Jerry McCarthy
01-10-2009, 06:04 PM
Sorry JP but I am correct in that the diagram I posted is from the IRC 2006 Code Commentary Vol. 1. Also, look at the bottom diagr am and see which side of the door shows the lock and strike set. See 2006 IRC 308.4, Exception 4, which is new to the IRC.
R308.4 - Exception 4. Glazing in Section R308.4, Item 6, in walls perpendicular to the plane of the door in a closed position, other than the wall toward which the door swings when opened, or where access through the door is to a closet or storage area 3 feet (914mm) or less in depth. Glazing in these applications shall comply with Section R308.4, Item 7.

Jerry Peck
01-10-2009, 07:55 PM
Also, look at the bottom diagr am and see which side of the door shows the lock and strike set.

That is the exception I was referring to, however, the error in the drawing is that it does not show *which direction* the door swings.

It is obviously that the door is hinged on the left.

It is not stated (not shown) that the door swing in the direction of those two windows. THAT was what I was commenting about.

The swing of the door "is inferred" by the arcs in the drawing above, however, the drawing has been altered, removing a permanent barrier and relocating the side glazing to different walls. With all of those changes, the door *could* swing out and away from the glazed areas.