Invasive Stucco Inspections - Looking for Classes/Training Courses

[Nick Ostrowski]

I'm thinking about getting up to speed on this and getting the training to start offering invasive stucco testing. Does anybody have any suggestions on a good training course? I can't seem to find much on line about training courses or classes.

[Markus Keller]

Obviously I don't know why you want to do this or what the scenario is. A few points though based on past experience.
- I used to do more invasive stuff years ago as part of consulting. Its a bad rabbit hole to go down. Just like an HI can only see so much because of what is visible, when doing invasive work once you start opening up X it becomes difficult to stop sometimes. You forgot to put a limitation in your agreement, the client insists, what you did expose shows some evidence but not quite enough so lets keep going and oops now its all screwed. I've done it, I will do it but I try to avoid it.
- Another issue is once you start doing invasive investigations clients want answers or at least plausible explanations for what is now visible. The whole 'further evaluation by qualified contractor' thing flies out the window. You don't have to be able to give clients absolute answers but you better be comfortable giving guidance. If not a guy can probably forget referrals. Once you start tearing stuff out there is a higher level of expectation that the person being hired knows their ****.
- In terms of stucco specifically I would suggest thinking about what it is you are trying to accomplish. If you need to verify subsurface wet conditions spend the money on a Tramex wet wall detector or Delmhorst probe and plugs. If you want to verify rusted metal lath for some reason I guess but I don't know why. Let the contractor deal with it.
- You said stucco, not EIFS, obviously EIFS they are screwed so that's another issue.
- Another note on invasive work, you need a good dust extractor, a multimaster or equivalent, jigsaw or sawzall and the ability to use them without making a huge mess, drop cloths, tape, backup piece of drywall, etc. Unless you are going to leave the place a mess you need to leave the place looking Pro. That's what will make the phone ring more.
- As far as classes, hell if know.
Hope that helps and hope it was along the lines of what you were asking.

[Nick Ostrowski]

Thanks Markus but what you're thinking is not what I am thinking. Invasive stucco inspections around here are two 1/4" holes drilled next to each other that allow you to insert probes for a moisture meter into the wall cavity to test moisture levels. I'm not talking at all about opening up walls. Just drill, probe, and patch with caulk which is the standard around here. Stucco in this area has a 50% failure rate or higher. Anybody who gets a stucco house now gets an invasive stucco inspection that is performed in the same nature I described. It is pretty common to drive through a local development of houses 10 years old (or less) and see at least one house with scaffolding set up in the yard and a contractor remediating moisture issues from failed stucco.

[Jerry Peck]

Invasive stucco inspections around here are two 1/4" holes drilled next to each other that allow you to insert probes for a moisture meter into the wall cavity to test moisture levels. I'm not talking at all about opening up walls. Just drill, probe, and patch with caulk which is the standard around here.

Doing that is a recipe for becoming responsible for any and all damage around, and below, those drilled holes.

What was just accomplished was drilling two holes through the WRB and the drainage plane.

I recommend not getting involved in that as ... someday ... there may be a problem and you could be held responsible for the damage.

[Nick Ostrowski]

Just looking for info about training courses guys.

[Gunnar Alquist]

Nick,

No one has said it yet, but there is an online HI association that provides "Advanced Stucco & EIFS Training for Inspectors". No idea of the quality of the information, but the outline states that it contains (among other things) 8,614 words. :cool:

The only thing that I can suggest is to search online. I found a number of online courses when I searched. Once again, I have no idea as to the quality of the training or course materials. Maybe there is a "hands-on" course at an ASHI or other association conference that you can attend.

[Jerry Peck]

Does EDI just do EIFS systems only, or do they also do stucco systems?

[Gunnar Alquist]

Hi Jerry,

I saw EDI come up in my search, but when I looked at their site, I only found EIFS training. That would be useful as a sideline, but I think Nick is looking for standard three-coat. I looked at the SMA, but I could only find information on installation, not inspection.

There is the Stucco Institute, but they seem to be focused specifically on Florida, which is likely fine for those in the hot/humid parts of the country.

[Nick Ostrowski]

Thanks Gunnar. I saw that 9,000+ word course too. ;)

Like you said, I just know what type of quality to expect from what I can find on-line.

[Jerry Peck]

Gunnar,


I saw EDI come up in my search, but when I looked at their site, I only found EIFS training.

That's what I saw too, but was thinking the EDI used to advertise stucco too (when they first started, but may have dropped it as most were seeking EIFS information).


... but I think Nick is looking for standard three-coat. I looked at the SMA, but I could only find information on installation, not inspection.

There is the Stucco Institute, but they seem to be focused specifically on Florida, which is likely fine for those in the hot/humid parts of the country.

The Stucco Institute is by a person who does expert witness work in defense of contractors. I know the person behind it, and while his Contractors Institute is one of the best for contractor and code training (and CEUs), his Stucco Institute is geared to justify why contractors do what they do - if you know what I mean.

[Gunnar Alquist]

Jerry & Nick,

That's good to know about SI. I know of a local Stucco/EIFS forensic inspector. His website indicates he has an "EDI certificate". I assume it's EIFS.

He also lists accreditation from Association of the Wall and Ceiling Industry (AWCI), Northwest Wall & Ceiling Bureau (NWC), & Air Barrier Association (ABAA). I have no idea as to what that means.

I'll send EDI an email to find out if they do forensic stucco training.

[Stephanie Jaynes]

Nick,

Great question. We interviewed a Florida inspector with a lot of experience and knowledge regarding EIFS/Stucco inspections a while back. I reached out to him to see what kind of classes/training courses he pursued to get where he is today. Here's what he said:

"There is nothing compared to first-hand knowledge and I encourage them to contact local tradesmen and visit worksites to observe installations. They should also contact local manufacturer(s) representatives who will gladly introduce them to their product literature/specifications, etc. They should also purchase all applicable ASTM guidelines for EIFS/Stucco (just google ASTM EIFS or stucco or Portland cement). Once they have developed a good working knowledge of the industry practices and the specifications, they can then enroll in certification courses offered by The Exterior Design Institute or American Walls & Ceilings Institute. These courses are approved by the EIFS/Stucco Manufacturers. InterNachi also has an EIFS/Stucco course if they are a member but it is not approved by the manufacturers as I’m aware. While the courses will give them a certificate, the courses alone, will not give them the knowledge to properly inspect/evaluate.

"Finally, before embarking on the wild world of EIFS/Stucco evaluation, they should visit their local building department to determine what, if any, codes are in effect and how the building department approves the installation. A new inspector can find themselves in a foolish spot when they tout ASTM which the local building department does not require.

"This is truly an area where one should get their hands dirty before declaring themselves experts!"

Hopefully, that information is helpful. If you have any additional questions, I'd encourage you to reach out to him. He's really very knowledgeable about this aspect of the industry, and he's very willing to share his insights and opinions with other inspectors. His name is William Chandler and he's with Property 360 (https://www.thebuildinginspector.net/).

[John Dirks Jr]

Nick,

Contact Steve Long at E.R Long Associates. I bet he can point you in the direction your seeking.

http://www.mas-con.com/

[Mark Parlee]

I do this type of inspection in consulting service. We do EIFS, Stucco, DEFS, AMSV, anything basically to do with water intrusion in the building envelope.
I do most of the relo inspections in the State of Iowa for these claddings. Most of them are invasive.
There is no substitute for a knowledge of the building envelope that comes from years of experience of building, remodeling, and troubleshooting envelopes gone wrong.
I wouldn't recommend just buying a moisture meter and starting testing without some training and deep knowledge of what you are doing. I taught the first session for AMSV inspections for the EDI. They are trying to get something started along this line and I am supposed to be working on some curriculum for the online version. Problem is that I have my own consulting service and am involved in 21 active cases at the moment that are headed to litigation. This has a way of consuming my time.
In addition, I provide continuing ed on the building envelope to some of the ASHI chapters so it makes me even busier. I do have some articles I can send you on envelope issues, email me and let me know.
call me sometime and we can talk about this.

[Mark Parlee]

For those interested the EDI will be offering a certification for AMSV Inspections.

Attached is the flier with details.