Secondary panel -Bonded

[Sam Morris]

Secondary panel in a detached garage that has the equipment grounds and neutrals bonded together. Do you still separate neutrals and grounds (remove bonding strap) when there is no ground from service panel only 2 hots and neutrals ?? I'm thinking you would (house built in 1994)

[Jim Port]

The important thing to determine is it the feeder is three of four wire. Is that metallic conduit?

[Sam Morris]

The important thing to determine is it the feeder is three of four wire. Is that metallic conduit?

# 2 hots and 1 neutral with metal conduit

[Jerry Peck]

Where does that 4th conductor coming up from the conduit in the bottom go to?

Is that supposed to be a grounding conductor from ground to the metallic enclosure?

While that is metallic conduit (I can see rust on the threads), in the photo - it looks like a PVC fitting of some type between the metallic conduit and the metallic enclosure. If that fitting is PVC, that breaks the ground path provided by, if a ground path was provided by, the metallic conduit.

[Gunnar Alquist]

Secondary panel in a detached garage that has the equipment grounds and neutrals bonded together. Do you still separate neutrals and grounds (remove bonding strap) when there is no ground from service panel only 2 hots and neutrals ?? I'm thinking you would (house built in 1994)

Sam,

You are correct. Neutral and grounding conductors should only be bonded together at the service equipment. Anywhere else, they should be isolated.


The important thing to determine is it the feeder is three of four wire. Is that metallic conduit?


# 2 hots and 1 neutral with metal conduit


Where does that 4th conductor coming up from the conduit in the bottom go to? Is that supposed to be a grounding conductor from ground to the metallic enclosure?

Jerry,

To me, the wire you are referring to looks like it might go to the off-white box at the lower/left exterior of the panel enclosure. I'm guessing phone wire. But, the pic is not of sufficient quality to determine.


While that is metallic conduit (I can see rust on the threads), in the photo - it looks like a PVC fitting of some type between the metallic conduit and the metallic enclosure. If that fitting is PVC, that breaks the ground path provided by, if a ground path was provided by, the metallic conduit.

I believe conduit can be used as an equipment grounding conductor as long as it's properly bonded to the panel enclosure. In addition to the PVC fitting that Jerry mentioned, it kind of looks like the metal conduit is going through a concentric knockout (can't tell for sure). So, even if the conduit connector fitting was metal, the setup would still require a bonding clamp.

[Sam Morris]

Sam,

You are correct. Neutral and grounding conductors should only be bonded together at the service equipment. Anywhere else, they should be isolated.







Jerry,

To me, the wire you are referring to looks like it might go to the off-white box at the lower/left exterior of the panel enclosure. I'm guessing phone wire. But, the pic is not of sufficient quality to determine.



I believe conduit can be used as an equipment grounding conductor as long as it's properly bonded to the panel enclosure. In addition to the PVC fitting that Jerry mentioned, it kind of looks like the metal conduit is going through a concentric knockout (can't tell for sure). So, even if the conduit connector fitting was metal, the setup would still require a bonding clamp.

The 3rd wire is cable or phone wire, a bonding clamp attached to the metal conduit ?

[Gunnar Alquist]

The 3rd wire is cable or phone wire, a bonding clamp attached to the metal conduit ?

Yes, typically a bonding bushing is used. http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/attachment.php?attachmentid=34049&stc=1

[Sam Morris]

Yes, typically a bonding bushing is used. http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/attachment.php?attachmentid=34049&stc=1

Ok, yes I think I know exactly what you’re talking about, attached to conduit and to bus bar.

[Jim Port]

A bond bushing is only.needed over 250 volts.to.ground.

- - - Updated - - -

A bond bushing is only.needed over 250 volts.to.ground.

[Gunnar Alquist]

A bond bushing is only.needed over 250 volts.to.ground.

Jim,

I thought they were required when the conduit is connected to concentric knockouts. At least, when some of the concentric rings remained, because of the tiny bits of metal holding the ring in place

[Jerry Peck]

These conductors are what I was referring to - see photo (the white cable shouldn't even be in that conduit).

[John Kogel]

JP, the one you labeled 'ground?' is actually a coiled length of coax, looking at the big picture.
The neutral seems to be supplying the only equipment ground. :(

[Jerry Peck]

JP, the one you labeled 'ground?' is actually a coiled length of coax, looking at the big picture.
The neutral seems to be supplying the only equipment ground. :(

John.

If that is what it is (I presumed that it ran up and past that coiled cable) then it shouldn't be in there either.

[Rollie Meyers]

Remember a 3-wire single phase feeder was permitted then, but a grounding electrode is also required for a detached building, the photos really don't show enough detail to decide what is the best course of action. If the conduit is metallic all the way, then the fix is fairly simple, if not......

That panel is a ITE/Siemens and they have a "split neutral" which allows the neutral to be landed near the circuit breaker associated with it, but there are idiots who remove the jumper at the bottom to use one side as the neutral bar & the other side as a ground bar & conveniently neglect to bond the ground bar to the can, I prefer using a ground bar kit.


A 4-wire feed is the preferred method over a formerly code compliant 3-wire feed.

[Bill Kriegh]

Something that would be a genuine help with questions like this are better /more pictures. The pictures that show up here are low res and lack detail that can't easily be brought out.

Clear pictures that show not only the entire load center but highlight the entire bunch of stuff along the edges, like maybe 4-6 pictures showing the entire interior of the can, and then a close up of the area with the problem or question.

I can offer a bunch of advice and answer questions and am usually happy to do so, but I'm not going to try and guess what's going on.

It's pretty obvious that the load center needs evaluation by a pro because there is a lot of stuff that isn't right. If you aren't a pro then just the "evaluation suggested" remark is recommended because once you've found one thing wrong that's what needs to happen. You don't need to detail the problems and could potentially cause problems if you do try to detail them and miss one (or several).

[Gunnar Alquist]

Remember a 3-wire single phase feeder was permitted then...

Hokey smoke Bullwinkle! I completely missed the "detached" part of garage. Yes, Rollie is correct, neutrals/equipment grounding conductors were often bonded together in separate buildings (there was that pesky "continuous metallic pathway" to consider). A grounding electrode would still have been required. However, I still don't see GEC.