Has the neutral been neutralized?

[Chris Weekly]

Older home with upgraded electrical service had the panel located in clothes closet.
The older panel in the closet is now in use as a junction box, and the newer panel was installed a few inches below. All the circuit wiring was spliced inside the junction box so that the new wiring could be extended down into the new panel. However, none of the electrical grounding wires or the neutral wires were extended down into the new panel. The rigid conduit and lock nuts were the only connection between panels. The closet issue aside, how wrong is this not to have the neutral wires, and grounding wires inside the new panel?

[Jerry Peck]

The neutral has been neutered (which may be a different way of saying 'neutralized' if that means 'made useless') ... and that is not a good thing.


Older home with upgraded electrical service had the panel located in clothes closet.
.
.
The closet issue aside,

That is a main issue, and when correcting it by relocating the panel, the electrical contractor has a lot of other work to do too.


The older panel in the closet is now in use as a junction box, and the newer panel was installed a few inches below.

Someone did a lot of work to not solve a known problem (there may have been other problems in the old panel, but we don't know based on the evidence we see.)


All the circuit wiring was spliced inside the junction box so that the new wiring could be extended down into the new panel.

Okay so far if done correctly.


However, none of the electrical grounding wires or the neutral wires were extended down into the new panel. The rigid conduit and lock nuts were the only connection between panels.
.... how wrong is this not to have the neutral wires, and grounding wires inside the new panel?

From what I see (was at the eye doctors earlier and my eyes are still dilated enough to make seeing this a bit iffy) ... that needs to be done by someone who knows what they are doing and understands the what and why of what they are doing.

[Jim Luttrall]

It is wrong on many counts. The biggest issue might be the neutrals and grounds do not originate in the same panel as the hots. To my understanding all wires of a circuit must originate in the same panel. Throw in the bonding, grounding, closet issue, and you have one big cluster ####.

[Jerry Peck]

Throw in the bonding, grounding, closet issue, and you have one big cluster ####.

I like that better than mine.

Jim, "fudge" has five characters, not four. :)

Then, as I recall (while I can now see it better, I do not have my code with me) no other conductors are allowed in the same raceway with the service entrance conductors as the service entrance conductors only have overcurrent protection on their load end at the main service disconnect. That puts all other conductors in that same raceway at risk without their required overcurrent protection, which is required on their line end (supply end).

[Jerry Peck]

Then, as I recall (while I can now see it better, I do not have my code with me) no other conductors are allowed in the same raceway with the service entrance conductors as the service entrance conductors only have overcurrent protection on their load end at the main service disconnect. That puts all other conductors in that same raceway at risk without their required overcurrent protection, which is required on their line end (supply end).

(bold and underlining are mine)
230.7 Other Conductors in Raceway or Cable. Conductors other than service entrance conductors shall not be installed in the same service raceway or cable.
Exception No. 1: Grounding electrode conductors and equipment bonding jumpers or conductors.
Exception No. 2: Load management control conductors having overcurrent protection.

This wording has been tweaked over various code editions trying to get the wording to where there is no disagreement over what it is saying, but the prohibition of having service entrance conductors and other conductors (see exceptions) has been in the code for a very long time - because one does not want to put protected conductors in the same raceway (or cable) with unprotected conductors (service entrance conductors do not have protection on their line/supply end ... only where they terminate into the main service disconnect ... and one would not want to have a fault and energize the other conductors.

[Chris Weekly]

Thanks Jerry and Jim for your comments.
Great catch with the "Conductors other than service entrance conductors shall not be installed in the same service raceway or cable." I hadn't considered that when I was inspecting this house. So, the service conductors pass through the junction box, along with the spliced circuit wires, down through the same conduit to the new panel. The conduit also appears to be overfilled. 34436

Without calling out all the oddities, I told them to have qualified electrical contractor fix it right....including the closet issue. The new panel can be flipped 180 degrees to a kitchen wall.

[Jerry Peck]

The conduit also appears to be overfilled.
.
Without calling out all the oddities, I told them to have qualified electrical contractor fix it right....including the closet issue. The new panel can be flipped 180 degrees to a kitchen wall.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the conduit being overfilled, it might not be, but ... if the conduit length is greater than 24" (doesn't look like it is) ... then derating would be needed due to more than 3 conductors in the raceway/cable/bundle/lack of maintaining spacing.

Even just 4-6 conductors need to be derated to 80% ampacity, and use the 90C column ampacity for the ampacity to derate from.

And, if any of those conductors go into the attic, derating for attic ambient temperature is also needed (using the 90C ampacity and derating for ambient from that is not the problem, the problem comes into additional derating from there for the excess conductors in the raceway for greater than 24').

I.e. #12 AWG derates from 30 amps:
- derate for a not real hot attic of 125F and derates to 76% which means #12 AWG is 30 x .76 = 22.8 amps ... which is still a 20 amp breaker
- derate for 7-9 conductors in the raceway and they are derated to 70%, which means those #12 AWG are now only 22.8 x .70 = 15.96 ampacity rated ... no longer a 20 amp breaker, its now a 15 amp breaker