Meter main combo panel - make and model

[Matthias Eichstaedt]

Hello all,
I am trying to determine the make and model (bus rating) of a combo service panel.
I think it is a Landis & Gyr panel. Searching online didn't yield any useful information yet.
Where would I find the specs for this (legacy) panel?

- Home was built in 1995
- Pacific Gas and Electric service area (EUSERC)
- 2 service disconnects (200A and 125A) in the top right corner
- 24 spaces
- only one sticker inside the panel referring to a Landis & Gyr accessory part
- Where can I find an old Landis & Gyr product catalog?

Matt

[Jerry Peck]

In the second photo, do you have closeup photos of that label in the meter can section and of the main breakers?

[Gunnar Alquist]

Hello all,
I am trying to determine the make and model (bus rating) of a combo service panel.
I think it is a Landis & Gyr panel. Searching online didn't yield any useful information yet.
Where would I find the specs for this (legacy) panel?

- Home was built in 1995
- Pacific Gas and Electric service area (EUSERC)
- 2 service disconnects (200A and 125A) in the top right corner
- 24 spaces
- only one sticker inside the panel referring to a Landis & Gyr accessory part
- Where can I find an old Landis & Gyr product catalog?

Matt

Matt,

I have never seen any Landis & Gyr panel. However, all of the PG&E meters that I have seen are L&G.

That looks like it might be a Challenger service equipment and breakers. Although, some of the branch circuit breakers look to be Cutler Hammer or Eaton.

Challenger Breaker Link (https://www.electrical.com/Products/Circuit-Breakers-Challenger/QFP2150T?cond=R&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplpQFP2150T-RE&sc_intid=QFP2150T-RE&utm_campaign=18008854929&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=&utm_term=&adgroupid=&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6fafBhC1ARIsAIJjL8mapHCORD-QwUFwyoMGIODSeCKgd2C0Jl_ecVGbW7hIeT_WaeTsENcaAkn0E ALw_wcB)

[Matthias Eichstaedt]

I am attaching the label in the meter can.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks, Gunnar.
That is exactly the breaker in this panel.

[Jerry Peck]

With no other information, I would report it something like this:

Service Equipment:
Located at: blah, blah, blah
Service Disconnect Size/Rating: 2 Main Service Disconnects: 1-200 amp & 1-125 amp
Service Entrance Conductors: Bus Bars
Service Equipment Bus Rating: Unknown, label is missing

No seal on meter side.
No grounding electrode conductor visible.
More than 2 equipment ground conductors in a terminal. (Maybe you or Gunnar can see this better than I can, but it loses resolution when zoomed in enough to try to count them.)
More than 1 neutral/grounded conductor in a terminal. (Same comment on being able to verify.)
Enclosure is recessed in the wall and is designed for surface mounting. Potential exists for leakage around enclosure and for damage to wall.

Those should do for starters.

(Am I just not seeing the grounding electrode conductor? If that conductor attached to the upper right hand corner of the enclosure is supposed to be the grounding electrode conductor, that is not a proper ground - especially being on painted surface. Maybe David or one of the electricians will have additional comments on that, but that just does not look right to me.)

I am curious about those black and red conductors connected to those 1/2" breakers as those would be on the same bus side and not have 240 volts between them.

[Matthias Eichstaedt]

Thanks, Jerry, for the detailed notes.
I will take a closer look at the grounding electrode conductor, or lack thereof.
Will also check the black and red conductors connected to those 1/2" breakers.

Matt

[Jerry Peck]

Will also check the black and red conductors connected to those 1/2" breakers.

Presumably, all will be okay, after all, it has been 'working' that way for years.

Usually, red and black conductors in a panel coming from a single 3-conductor NM cable will indicate that the circuit is either:
a) a 240v circuit and someone actually paid attention to not using the white as a 'hot' conductor, versus using the white from a 2-conductor NM cable ... and I'm having difficulty remembering the last time I saw that happen, or
b) a multiwire-branch circuit with two 'hot' and one neutral, which is required to be connected across a 240v supply but has no 240v loads, the grounded neutral only carries the unbalanced current of the two circuits.

If b), then the neutral would carry the current of both circuits, which could well exceed the rating of the conductor.

Thus, if the red and black go to a 3-conductor NM cable and there is no voltage between the two on the same 1/2" breaker, then I would recommend having an licensed and qualified electrical contractor make corrections as necessary.

[david shapiro]

That cable coming up from the bottom looks like something no inspector laid eyes upon, FWIW. It's not an amigawd, but it leads me to wonder whether the installer's training came from youtube. I'd suggest writing that up as well, as "Have a competent individual check what's at the other end of this cable."

I shouldn't add this, but the design of the mains reminds me of zinscos.

[Jerry Peck]

I shouldn't add this, but the design of the mains reminds me of zinscos.

Same thing I thought about the way they fit on those bus bars.

But Zinsco was long gone before that house was built in 1995, correct?

David, did I describe the questions about the red and black conductors, if from the same 3-conductor cable, on those 1/2" breakers adequately?

[david shapiro]

Jerry, I agree about Zinsco. That's why I was hesitant to mention it. A quick web search said Sylvania made them till 1981, but 1981 to 1995 is too long to be sitting in someone's truck or shop. I think.

As for the rest of it, my eyes just aren't good enough. Yes, using a tandem to feed the red and the black conductors from a 3-wire-pg cable, that's illegal and risks overloading the neutral. OTOH, feeding a tandem with the red from one cable and the black from another, no problem--and in 1995, no handle tie required. And i couldn't trace them. GEC? I have no idea what you were looking at.

On second thought, it looks as though most if not all of the cables have way too much sheath in the cabinet. NEC 312.4(C)(5) says the sheath has to stick in at least 1/4 inch; the maximum is the AHJ's call. Maybe in that jurisdiction . . . .

If the cabinet lacks the loadcenter label (you know, the one that usually has room for a tiny circuit directory), that in itself is a problem. Is the loadcenter even listed for use with tandems? Can more be added legally? I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was listed as a straight 24-space panel. for this sort of information, I'd have to ask UL about the number shown in the pic, and hope it referred to the loadcenter.

[Gunnar Alquist]

I shouldn't add this, but the design of the mains reminds me of zinscos.


Same thing I thought about the way they fit on those bus bars. But Zinsco was long gone before that house was built in 1995, correct?

Kind of yes... kind of no.

In my area, the Zinsco, then the GTE/Sylvania version of the Zinsco panel (the name was changed, but they remained largely the same) was the predominant panel used up until it was replaced by the Challenger panel in the 1990s. I have seen homes with the GTE/Sylvania type Zinsco panel through to the end of the 1980s around here. I believe GTE/Sylvania then manufactured the Challenger panel with the "universal" distribution buss bar design that lasted about 10 years. But, the mains were essentially the same as the old Zinsco.

That's why it looks familiar.

[david shapiro]

Wow, thanks, Gunnar! Then an old stock mid-'90s installation is not out of the question.If they manufactured the hybrid design throughout the '90s, not even old stock! Probably there are records showing whether GTE made those as 24-24s, 24-30s or what. I sure hope those mains don't have the same bad-contact problem the Zinsco branch breakers demonstrated. In this case, most likely Matt would see evidence of severe overheating. (I thought I saw detritus where the mains hit the bus, not obvious melting or corrosion.)

[Gunnar Alquist]

Hey David,

I found this link during an online search. It gives a brief (two-line) synopsis of the company purchases. I did not know that Challenger was owned by Westinghouse. I thought Sylvania owned it. Of course, large companies are like trading cards these days.

Apparently, Eaton purchased Cutler-Hammer in 1978. But, at least around here, the Cutler-Hammer name was on the electrical equipment until maybe 10 years ago. I wonder why they changed.

https://oregonbreakers.com/eaton/#:~:text=Eaton%20is%20an%20active%20manufacturer,U nit%20of%20Westinghouse%20in%201993.

[david shapiro]

More interesting stuff, Gunnar. Now a CH I bought well within this decade--2016, 2019--is marked "Eaton Cutler-Hammer series," the first word far the biggest.

[Rollie Meyers]

The panel is either a Challenger, or Westinghouse BR, which are the same, Eaton bought the Westinghouse electrical div. in the mid 1990's & folded it into their Cutler-Hammer unit,they kept the Challenger load center designs, & dropped most of the Challenger breakers, & had Westinghouse designs listed in their place because of the blending of the Challenger & BR lines, I call Eaton BR "Zinsco II". They both catered to the bottom end of the market.

If those Zinsco style breakers had a gray colored case instead of black I would have said the panel is a Milbank, they still manufacture Zinsco style mains.

[david shapiro]

More interesting stuff, Rollie.

I get that BRs are Eaton's "value line." I had a single experience with a BR panelboard that made me wonder about quality, but a sample of 1 is just an anecdote.

When you call BRs "Zinsco II," I'm interested. Do you mean that you know of a bunch of failures, or that the design intrinsically makes unreliable contact with the bus stabs?

Also, when you mention that Zinsco-type mains were used long after branch CBs went to standard stabs, and still are used by Millbank, do you know if these too have proved unreliable?

Thanks,

David