Opinions of a write up on a panel

[Lanny Freng]

Here is what I have in the report:

Correction Recommended- There are double tapped fuses, typically only one branch circuit per fuse is allowed. There is no additional space for these extra taps so a panel upgrade is required or a seperate sub panel may be able to be installed. Recommend contacting a licensed electrician to evalute and make repairs as warranted. Also note that some insurance companies will not accept fuse panels anymore and may require you to upgrade to breakers to continue ins. coverage. This could come at substantial cost. I would recommend contacting the insurance company that you plan to have cover the house and see what their guidelines are.

Does this sound like a feasible response to this fuse panel.

[Jerry Peck]

Here is what I have in the report:

Correction Recommended- There are double tapped fuses, typically only one branch circuit per fuse is allowed. There is no additional space for these extra taps so a panel upgrade is required or a seperate sub panel may be able to be installed.

WHOA Lanny!

Multiple (or even just double) tapping is an EASY FIX.

Just take the two (or three) conductors from the breaker, add a new single conductor of the same size, connect with a wire nut, then insert the other end of the new single conductor into the breaker/fuse.




Also note that some insurance companies will not accept fuse panels anymore and may require you to upgrade to breakers to continue ins. coverage. This could come at substantial cost. I would recommend contacting the insurance company that you plan to have cover the house and see what their guidelines are.

Does this sound like a feasible response to this fuse panel.


That last part does. But keep it separate from replacing the panel due to multiple tapping.

[Rick Hurst]

I don't like to use words as "required". Who is to say it is required? Why is it required? If you state that be ready to back it up.

Not an insurance agent myself so I stay away from what an insurance company may request.

[Matt Fellman]

I have the exact same opinion on the word 'required' in a home inspection report. It makes it sound like you're there to do more than you are.

As for the write-up it's pretty good the way it is. I don't know that I'd go as far down the insurance company road. With fuse panels I usually just state that the equipment is past its service life and should be replaced.

[Jerry Peck]

I don't know that I'd go as far down the insurance company road. With fuse panels I usually just state that the equipment is past its service life and should be replaced.

Matt,

*IF* (that big "if") the HI knows or is aware that some, many, or most insurance companies covering his/her area "require" replacement of "fuse" panels, then (to me) I think *it is the duty of the HI to advise their client of such*.

This is also based on personal experience: About 15 years ago in South Florida (shortly after Hurricane Andrew) I did my normal inspection, then had my client call me regarding fuse panels and why had I NOT advised them of this. After talking with them, calling their in$urance agent, and other people at their in$urance company, I found out that this policy *had just been implemented* the week before - the week before they closed and now they were trying to get insurance for closing. Fortunately, being as it was before closing (the house was not theirs yet) and because I had written to much down about the panel because so much was wrong with its wiring, they were able to tack on the replacement of the fuse panel to their negotiated closing amounts and the seller covered it.

I think Lanny did this part well in stating: (bold is mine) "Also note that some insurance companies will not accept fuse panels anymore and may require ... "


Lanny is not stating that they "will require", but is advising his client (our job) that they "may require" ... the fuse panel to be replaced.

In my opinion (my opinion) to do less is not working toward your (not 'your' as in "you", but 'your' as in 'plural for all HIs') client's best interests.


I do agree with you and Rick on the use of "require" - HIs cannot "require" anything. However, there is nothing wrong with "may require", that is "advice". As in 'You know, killing someone "may require" you to spend the rest of your life in prison - if you get to even live."

[Lanny Freng]

The reason I put that comment about the insurance in there is that in the last year I have had two clients tell me that the agents involved on both sides told them that it was no big deal and insurance wouldnt be a problem. They both insisted it be upgraded per my report or lower the price and both times the insurance company called em on it when they came out for photos and to look at the panel. The same happened to me in my house. The clients were very happy with me as everyone else in the transaction down played it.

I always add in at the end to have an electrician evaluate and repair/replace as necessary.

[Lanny Freng]

Jerry

"WHOA Lanny!

Multiple (or even just double) tapping is an EASY FIX.

Just take the two (or three) conductors from the breaker, add a new single conductor of the same size, connect with a wire nut, then insert the other end of the new single conductor into the breaker/fuse."


Jerry,

I was under the impression that you couldnt have multiple circuits on one fuse/breaker. Am I wrong? If this is allowed how would we know that they dont have 25 different recepticles from 2-3 branch circuits wired all on one fuse/breaker which could potentially blow the thing continually when multiple appliances/lights are operated. Please educate me... Thanks.

[Jerry Peck]

I was under the impression that you couldnt have multiple circuits on one fuse/breaker. Am I wrong?

Basically, yes, you are wrong.


If this is allowed how would we know that they dont have 25 different recepticles from 2-3 branch circuits wired all on one fuse/breaker ... [quote]

Lanny, the answer to the question "How many receptacle outlets are allowed to be on a 15 amp circuit?" is "How many do you want?" They would put 200 receptacle outlets on a 15 amp circuit, all you are going to be able to use, though, is 15 amps.

[quote]which could potentially blow the thing continually when multiple appliances/lights are operated.

Correct, and when that happens, then some of those things need to get wired to other circuits, new circuits if need be.

Think of it this way: One could wire EACH receptacle outlet with a home run to the panel ... how many "circuits" could you then put on a breaker?

Now, to expand on that, how do you know 'how many' receptacles are on any given circuit at the panel? Answer: You don't know, in fact, you have no idea.

You could have two circuit wired to two different breakers, and one circuit could have ONE receptacle and the other circuit could have 30 receptacles ... and you would not notice anything out of the ordinary because there would be one wire to each breaker.

Don't base load 'assumptions' on 'there is only one wire to each breaker'.

Repeat :D this mantra:

Q. "How many receptacle outlets are allowed to be on a 15 amp circuit?"

A. "How many do you want?" :(

[Lanny Freng]

thanks Jerry that all makes sense. I forgot to mention that they had a stock pile of fuses around the panel so my thinking was that they were going through alot of fuses and this maybe due to overloading. Have a good day!

[Michael Thomas]

From time to time I do a survey of the "hot button issues" for companies writing HO insurance my area:

Identifying Common Homeowners Insurance Problems For Home Inspectors and Real Estate Professionals, Paragon Property Services Evanston / Chicago Ill (http://www.paragoninspects.com/homeowners-insurance-problems-home-inspection-evanston-chicago.html)

Fuse based panels of any age or capacity always make the list.

[Jerry Peck]

I forgot to mention that they had a stock pile of fuses around the panel so my thinking was that they were going through alot of fuses and this maybe due to overloading.

Yep, that does make it 'look that way' doesn't it.

Also, I should mention, the 'How many do you want.' answer applies to residential dwelling units and a few other occupancies, such as guest rooms in hotels, etc., it does not apply to business, commercial or other such installations.

[Greg Bertaux, P.E.]

Last month here in Florida I had a client (home buyer) who had their insurance cancelleded after the 4-point inspection revealed the same issue. They were upset, since they already closed. Their insurance agent did not communicate effectively.

[Jerry Peck]

Greg,

First, welcome to THE home inspector board.

Second, would you update your 'Location' to indicate where in big old long state you are, thanks. It helps with questions and answers.

Glad to have a Florida PE on board here.


They were upset, since they already closed. Their insurance agent did not communicate effectively.

Did their home inspector advise them of it? ;)

[Gunnar Alquist]

Lanny,

It would not hurt to mention the presence of extra fuses and the likelihood that household demands exceed the capacity of some circuits in your recommendation to upgrade the electrical.