Handyman Special

[Nolan Kienitz]

Had a house today that was a "Class A" Home Handyman special. Image reflects a bar sink drain (yes, I know there is no P-trap ... let me finish;)). The drain includes the flexible product that is okay for "home handyman temp" use and the horizontal line goes through the wall and connects (about 4') to the drain in the adjacent bath sink at the appropriate location above the P-trap. Slope is okay all the way.

Picture a kitchen dual-sink drain where one drain stem comes down and then routes horizontally to the adjacent sink drain stem & P-trap.

With that thought in mine I have two questions:

1) Would you approve the current arrangement going from the bar sink to the bath sink?
2) Would you approve the flexible connection?

I'm afraid I'll be writing for a while on this report. It was a pre-listing inspection. Most of the modifications were done by the prior owner from what I understand. AND ... current owner is an agent. :eek:

Gonna be interesting to say the least.

[Jerry Peck]

The drain includes the curly-que product that is okay for "temp" use ...

"okay for "temp" use "??? Says who?

It is not okay for any use in a drain.


With that thought ...

1) Would you approve the current arrangement going from the bar sink to the bath sink?

2) Would you approve the curly-que?

1) Absolutely not.

2) Absolutely not.

[Nolan Kienitz]

Jerry P.,

Tnx much. Just the validation I needed to lock in what I was keying in the report.

[Patrick Martinez]

Nolan,

only if the drain in an indirect waste and dumping into a tapped floor drain or other trapped fixture can this be done. If the drain is connected to another fixture trap this is not permitted as each fixture requires its own trap.

As to the curly Q, ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Good luck

Pat

[Nick Ostrowski]

"Improper and unprofessional installation of trap and corrugated drain line on wet bar sink - repairs needed by a professional plumber"

Those corrugated drain lines shouldn't be manufactured or sold. I can't think of one plumbing application where their installation is acceptable.

[Jerry Peck]

Nolan,


If the drain is connected to another fixture trap this is not permitted as each fixture requires its own trap.

Pat has it right.

The reason your two compartment kitchen sink example did not play is that it is a "single" fixture, which only requires 'one trap'.

What you described were "two" fixtures trying to share that 'one trap'.

And, then (of course) the interior of a drain line or fitting is required to be smooth (so it does not collect debris and waste, least it: a) clog up; b) promote the growth of bacteria).

Now, *IF* the trap arms were the correct size and the trap arms did not exceed their maximum allowable length, one solution (*IF* those *IFs* worked out okay) would be to install a trap under the bar sink, tie it into the branch arm between the bathroom sink trap and the stack.

Even if it were a little off on the above *IFs*, it would still work much better than what is there, not that you could give it your blessing, but you could 'degrade it less'. ;)

[Tony Mount]

Nolan, Be careful who you listen to on this board, #1 You are not a code inspector, so if a system is preforming its function you can NOT call it out for repair. #2 The home owner does NOT have to bring things up to code if it is cosmedic in nature.#3 the pipe used will not clog or smell any more than a dirty lever stopper in a sink. #4 have Jerry prove the pipe can not be used by a home owner or that the manufacture does not approve it for that use. #5 you can NOT predict what might happen to that pipe and how long it will last. Now the P-Trap is a different story.

[Richard Rushing]

#1--- What??? The hell you can't. You damn sure better if you know something is wrong. If you don't know it's wrong... go back to changing oil til you get the proper education.

#2--- What???? Of course not, if it's cosmetic in nature. Nothing Nolan posted falls under that category though...:confused:

#3--- What????? Anyone who does not identify the corrigated pipe used as an improper use of materials shouldn't be inspecting for a living... sheesh!!

#4--- (What the plumbers use) Uniform Plumbing Code section 701.2 states, "Drainage fittings shall be of cast iron, malleable iron, lead, brass, copper, ABS, PVC, vitrified clay, or other approved materials having a smooth interior waterway of the same diameter as the piping served..."

#5--- See 1, 2, 3, & 4 above.... No need to predict the future. The future is the present.

This is a joke right:confused:

Richard

[Rick Hurst]

Richard,

None of those rules abide to the Tony Mount SOP's.

[Matt Fellman]

"okay for "temp" use "??? Says who?



I'm intrigued.... So, it's not okay for temp use and not for permenant use.... So, what is the purpose of this slinky-like plastic matter that is for sale in every hardware store in the country?

Or, am I mis-understanding the sarcasm here?

Don't get me wrong, I know these things are junk and have no place in a house.... but they are sold for a purpose. I guess my question is, what is the purpose?

[Patrick Martinez]

Okay, here are some excerpts...
Ch 3 2006 UPC 301.1.1
All Pipe, pipe fittings, traps, fixtures, material and devices used in a plumbing system shall be listed or labeled, (3rd party certified), by a listing agency, (accredited conformity assessment body) and shall conform to approved applicable recognized standards referenced in this code, and shall be free from defects. All materials, fixtures, or devices used or entered into the construction of plumbing systems, or parts thereof, shall be submitted to the AHJ for approval.

Ch 10 2006 UPC, 1001. Each plumbing fixture excepting those having integral traps.

1001.2 One trap may serve not more than 3 single compartment sinks or laundry tubs of the same depth or 3 lavatories immediately adjacent to each other and in the same room if the waste outlets are not more than 30 inches apart and the trap is centrally located when the three compartments are installed.

Nolan, I don't think anyone here is trying to be too verbose but only conveying an understanding of code requirements. If it is questionable, you did the right thing to post it here to gather some understanding from the other inspectors. Hopefully this helps in your endeavors also.

Taker care and good luck.

Pat

[Rick Hurst]

I'm intrigued.... So, it's not okay for temp use and not for permenant use.... So, what is the purpose of this slinky-like plastic matter that is for sale in every hardware store in the country?

Or, am I mis-understanding the sarcasm here?

Don't get me wrong, I know these things are junk and have no place in a house.... but they are sold for a purpose. I guess my question is, what is the purpose?

Matt,

The purpose is too make the almighty dollar. Plain and simple.

rick

[Eric Shuman]

I'm intrigued.... So, it's not okay for temp use and not for permenant use.... So, what is the purpose of this slinky-like plastic matter that is for sale in every hardware store in the country?

Or, am I mis-understanding the sarcasm here?

Don't get me wrong, I know these things are junk and have no place in a house.... but they are sold for a purpose. I guess my question is, what is the purpose?




What Rick said, plus,

Many items that are not approved and listed for specific uses (such as the corrugated pipe) can and are sold because they offer an easy way out of something that may be harder or costlier to repair. Where there's a market, there's a product, even if it is not allowed or approved!:)

Kinda like using a can of fix-a-flat in your flat tire. Not recommended or a proper repair and it is flat-out (pardon the pun) dangerous to the tire installer but sometimes effective and a lot cheaper and faster than taking your wheel off and into the shop!

Eric

[Rick Hurst]

not a handyman!

[Matthew Barnicle]

This is an obvious writeup. "Undersink plumbing installed in amateur / non-workmanlike manner. Among the deficiencies are corrugated/temporary type drain pipe, lack of proper trap, lack of accessible water shutoffs to undersink water supply and unsealed/open pipe to wall penetrations. Recommend review and repair as needed by licensed plumbing contractor" Then you can tell the client verbally (if you want) that if he doesn't get it fixed, he might get some odors from the corrugated pipe or have to plunge it from time to time, etc. etc.

[Tony Mount]

Nolan, There is a differance between Required Repair and potential problem with a system. One must be repaired because of dangerous reasons, damaged, not performing its intended function. The other is somthing that IS preforming its function, may not be up to code, and should be noted in the report. However if the system IS PREFORMING ITS FUCTION you are lible if you state the system is NOT up to CODE, Unless you are a liscensed plumber.

[Jerry Peck]

(underlining is mine)

One must be repaired because of dangerous reasons, damaged, not performing its intended function. The other is somthing that IS preforming its function, may not be up to code, and should be noted in the report.

Tony,

I've watched and read as you have made that same transition many times before, stating one to create a higher standards, then stating the other to try to justify your low standard.

In reality, the first one is correct and should be used and applied in both instances: "its intended function"


However if the system IS PREFORMING ITS FUCTION you are lible if you state the system is NOT up to CODE,

Just like the information in your other post ... you have apparently no idea what you are talking about.

You probably like those corrugated flexible tail pieces as they can catch and trap diamonds and are easier to find and recover. :D

[John Arnold]

Jerry, please.
The smiley face does not stop the pain.

[Jerry Peck]

John,

Should I delete that line? The truth (by his own admission) can be painful at times.

What say you?

And others?

[John Arnold]

...Should I delete that line?...
Heck no. I was referencing a thread from the past that went down in flames. Too much of an inside joke, I suppose, but I couldn't help it.

[Jim Luttrall]

However if the system IS PREFORMING ITS FUCTION you are lible if you state the system is NOT up to CODE,


Tony, who are you liable to?

[Rick Hurst]

I'm still trying to figure out what "preforming" is. :D

[Richard Rushing]

That's before it gets formed.

RR

[Jerry Peck]

Guys, quit picking on Tony's speelin' ... "somthing" [sic] might happen to youse guys.

[Nolan Kienitz]

Nolan, There is a differance between Required Repair and potential problem with a system. One must be repaired because of dangerous reasons, damaged, not performing its intended function. The other is somthing that IS preforming its function, may not be up to code, and should be noted in the report. However if the system IS PREFORMING ITS FUCTION you are lible if you state the system is NOT up to CODE, Unless you are a liscensed plumber.

Sorry Tony ... I don't agree with your logic or lack of same.

[Rick Hurst]

Nolan,

Here's another handyman special.

Gas valve being used for exterior water faucet.

[Tony Mount]

Nolan, all you have to ask yourself is, "what does the SOP say about this " and If I were the seller and this Item has functioned without problems for the past 5 years would I want to be forced to up grade it for the new owners? Don't forget that Jerry, Richard and Rick Have no problem up grading there houses bring them up to current codes and replacing all the appliances that are over 5 years old when they sale their houses. Not very many people are that generous when it comes to selling houses in the good old USA. Use common since. It has nothing to do with low standards only being fair to the seller and buyer through the SOP. How would react to what the others are telling you if you were selling the house? FAIRNESS, and COMMON SINCE. I have yet to find a spell check on this web sight,and if it has to be down loaded then it is not worth it.

[John Arnold]

...I have yet to find a spell check on this web sight,and if it has to be down loaded then it is not worth it...

When you type the word "somthing", don't you see a red line under it? I do. That's spell check.
Of course, when you spell "sense" since, it doesn't underline it because since is a real, properly spelled word. It just isn't the word you think it is.

[Eric Shuman]

Speaking of SOP requirements: (since it was brought up)

From the Texas SOP: (Bold is mine)

"x) Plumbing systems. The inspector shall:

(1) inspect and report as in need of repair deficiencies in the type and condition of all accessible and visible water supply and waste-water and vent pipes;..."

It seems to me that this requirement in the Texas SOP would require that the flexible drain pipe be reported as in need of repair. The flexible type of waste-water drain pipe is not allowed because the inside walls of the pipe are not smooth as required.

I would consider this to be a deficiency. A plumber could not install the flex pipe and have it pass inspection and there is a reason for this - it will eventually clog up.

True, we are not city code inspectors but we all know that the standards of practice that we inspect to are very often based in code requirements. If they are not, then someone will need to explain to me the presence of all of the code related questions on the state inspector licensing exam as well as provide me with what standards we are required to use as a basis for our inspections (other than the SOP which is so often clearly based on building codes).

I write the corrugated drain pipe up as a repair issue every single time I see it and I encourage others to do so as well.

We as inspectors have no power to require any of our reported issue to be repaired. The home seller is not required to make any repairs what-so-ever. We should leave that process up to the negotiations between the buyer and seller.


Eric

[Jim Luttrall]

Tony, look at the upper right hand of the box when you type a response. The little ABC with a check under it is the button for spell check. Click on that button and you have instant spell check, no need to down load anything.

Tony, we are not municipal inspectors (for the most part) but everything we do IS based in the codes, even the SOP start at the established building codes and practices.
As far as being "fair to the seller" or fair to the house, that is not our job.
We are inspectors, investigators very similar to the police investigator. The police inspector is there to uncover the truth, not to be fair to anyone. The judge and jury are the ones that are charged with being fair, not the investigators. Following this analogy, the buyer and seller will decide what is fair, we just provide the information.

[Rick Hurst]

"Use common since."

Now that is classic.

[Nolan Kienitz]

I'm glad I did the post (BTW - on purpose) to see what would follow.

I've not had any problems with my 5+ years of residential inspections nor my 15 years of commercial inspections.

It is all a learning and education experience. ;)

[Mike Schulz]

That flex drain is no different then using radiator hose. If it works don't fix it................ :rolleyes:

I ma gald I fuond the splel chcek, yuo all wuold taer me up.:p

[Jeffrey L. Mathis]

If a flex drain was employed because there was no other way to correct a previous miscalculation, are we doing anyone any good by creating a stink?
OK, put it in the body of the report if you must. But the summary...maybe not.
And by the by--I'm scouring this screen and see no spell check icon. guess I'll have to rely on my education.
JLMathis

[Rick Hurst]

Jeffrey,

Right click with mouse on the message screen and you should see "Check Spelling"

[Mike Schulz]

Also fill in where you are from................strangers suck! :)

[Bruce Ramsey]

If a flex drain was employed because there was no other way to correct a previous miscalculation, are we doing anyone any good by creating a stink?
OK, put it in the body of the report if you must. But the summary...maybe not.
JLMathis

Yes, we are doing someone good by creating a stink because if we don't the pipe will create a stink literally.

If the incorrect part is used, it is broken. If it is broken, it should go in the summary.

[Jerry Peck]

If a flex drain was employed because there was no other way to correct a previous miscalculation, are we doing anyone any good by creating a stink?

Absolutely yes.

Look at it this way: Are you doing YOUR BUYER any good by NOT identifying it as needed to be corrected?

It is, after all, up to your client (the buyer) to take the information we provide and use it for their best interests, from 'just for their knowledge' to 'negotiating with the seller for repairs or credit for repairs'.

I like Jim's analogy (wish I had thought of it):

We are inspectors, investigators very similar to the police investigator. The police inspector is there to uncover the truth, not to be fair to anyone. The judge and jury are the ones that are charged with being fair, not the investigators. Following this analogy, the buyer and seller will decide what is fair, we just provide the information.

We HIs are "the investigators", the buyer and seller are "the jurors". If they end up in a 'hung jury' and fail to arrive at an equitable deal both can live with, that *IS NOT THE HIs PROBLEM*.

Most times, they will haggle it out to where they can both live with the end result, whatever that may be.

[Billy Stephens]

From Today's Prize. :)

This connected to (Scared the Moisture Out Of ) Appliance. :D