Floored by this Panel

[Aaron Miller]

Yesterday. Flip house in Preston Hollow. Yuppie haven. High-end flipper. This panel was in the garage. They had decked out the garage with storage, peg board walls, etc., so they had to furr out the panel in that wall. Looked around and had some extra oak flooring. Heck, why not. . .

Nice job huh?

Aaron:D

[John Arnold]

I hate those invisible panels.

[Aaron Miller]

Oops, forgot to turn the knob . . .

[Nick Ostrowski]

Aaron, I'm assuming you did mention to your client and document the other standout issue with this panel. Correct?

[Aaron Miller]

Nick:

There were so many, I could barely get it all onto one page.

(1) Oak boards.

(2) Paint and debris in the panel.

(3) Federal Pacific Electric StabLok

(4) Sheet metal panel screws (not visible)

You guys can find the rest . . .

Aaron:D

[Nick Ostrowski]

Gotha Aaron. But I thought the leaf at the bottom of the panel was a left-over autumnal decoration ;).

[Aaron Miller]

Nick:

Yeah, it was in fact. There were also somethings in there that looked like Mardi Gras beads, old graham crackers, pecan shells, rat doppings - you name it. This was a true piece d' resistance.

Aaron:confused:

[Jerry Peck]

There were so many, I could barely get it all onto one page.

(1) Oak boards.

(2) Paint and debris in the panel.

(3) Federal Pacific Electric StabLok

(4) Sheet metal panel screws (not visible)

You guys can find the rest . . .

I'm also sure you got this one:


so they had to furr out the panel in that wall.

The enclosure is now in a "combustible wall" and must be even with, or extending beyond, the surface of the combustible wall ... forget about it being allowed back 1/4" like it is in a gypsum or other non-combustible wall - that sucker is probably back 3/4" from the wall surface, and probably more (because it was likely not flush to start with).

[Dominic Caronna]

Looks like and FPE panel to me. Have it furhter evaluated and possibly replaced by an electrician.
DAC

[Jerry Peck]

Looks like and FPE panel to me. Have it furhter evaluated and possibly replaced by an electrician.
DAC

Why would you want it "further evaluated"?

Write up what you see wrong, you should know about all the 'bad things about FPE panels' so recommend replacement.

Don't leave the door open for some electrician to say 'oh it's okay', make them open that door all by themselves. You want to just say 'FPE panel needs replacement' and distance yourself, and your client (that's why you are there) from that problematic panel as far as you can.

[Aaron Miller]

Jerry:

I covered the edges of the door with bright red duct tape, then wrote on the door with a large felt marker "REPLACE ME NOW!"

Got a nasty call from the seller and hung up on them.

Aaron:eek:

[Scott Patterson]

Why would you want it "further evaluated"?

Write up what you see wrong, you should know about all the 'bad things about FPE panels' so recommend replacement.

Don't leave the door open for some electrician to say 'oh it's okay', make them open that door all by themselves. You want to just say 'FPE panel needs replacement' and distance yourself, and your client (that's why you are there) from that problematic panel as far as you can.

Jerry, don't forget about our brethren in Kentucky. Under state law they are not allowed to tell the truth about Fire Producing Equipment (FPE)! They must tell their client that they need to spend another $100 or whatever to have a licensed electrician tell their client that the have an FPE and that their house could burn down if it is not replaced.

[Jerry McCarthy]

Evaluate; way overused expression, when one is paid for an opinion based on their knowledge and experience advising further evaluation of a system or component obviously defective is silly. Recommend repair and/or replace by appropriate qualified person and briefly explain the inherent danger if your advice is not followed then move on. I just finished reviewing an inspection report wherein the inspector recommended further evaluation of every system in the home. It’s no wonder buyers/sellers complain and their agents whine.
Scott, what’s that about Kentucky?

[Aaron Miller]

WC Jerry:

I wish to respectfully disagree.

Example 1: Dr. G(erernal practitioner) examines you for a health problem in exchange for a fee. He finds that your whatchamacallit (WC) is exhibiting a this or that and refers you for further evaluation to Dr. S(pecialist in whatchamacallit malfunctions) and payment of yet another fee.

Example 2: WC Jerry miraculously recovers from his WC ailment, inspects another house only to find the foundation is highly engineered and likely not fairing well. Does he refer his client to a structural engineer for further evaluation and payment of yet another fee?

Example 3: You pay your accountant to do your company books. You ask him some hypothetical questions intended to get advice on how to sidestep the IRS here and there. He advises you to seek council with a tax attorney for further evaluation of your case - but of course for a fee.

Example 4: Dr. N(uthouse) examines WC Jerry and finds that his DNA can be traced back to Oklahoma. WC Jerry quickly goes out and pays yet another physician Dr. N(o way I'm from Oklahoma!) for a second opinion.

Aaron:D

[Rick Cantrell]

Aaron
I agree, sometimes it is OK to say "Have it further evaluated".

You said "I wish to respectfully disagree." , ... that was with respect.
(understanding that #4 was meant as humor and not really personal)

[Brandon Chew]

Scott, what’s that about Kentucky?


http://www.ohbc.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/146DC4BD-3B22-41EC-8594-9EF36B01B452/0/07001FPEPANELS071011071203.pdf

For more info and discussion Google FPE KBHI

[Richard Moore]

I covered the edges of the door with bright red duct tape, then wrote on the door with a large felt marker "REPLACE ME NOW!"

Got a nasty call from the seller and hung up on them.

Aaron:eek:

Bit of a thread drift...

Aaron, while I certainly can't argue with your conclusion, I do have to question your right to deface a seller's property like that. Your clients don't own the home yet, and may yet walk away from the deal.

Not that I'd ever have a panel like that, but I'd be a little pissed myself to find someone scrawling "graffiti" on what is still my stuff. If you really think the danger is imminent enough, then call the listing agent to inform the seller. Your signage alone isn't protecting anyone and your findings belong in the confidential report, not plastered on the walls. Sorry, but in this case, I think you went too far and probably deserved the "nasty" call.

[Eric Van De Ven]

I hate those invisible panels.

That is an easy one.
You call for replacement of the panel due to the paint in the panel, which most manufacturers agree, cannot be removed unless with a "lint free" cloth.

Unless, of course, you are in North Carolina!:D

[Eric Van De Ven]

Bit of a thread drift...

Aaron, while I certainly can't argue with your conclusion, I do have to question your right to deface a seller's property like that. Your clients don't own the home yet, and may yet walk away from the deal.

Not that I'd ever have a panel like that, but I'd be a little pissed myself to find someone scrawling "graffiti" on what is still my stuff. If you really think the danger is imminent enough, then call the listing agent to inform the seller. Your signage alone isn't protecting anyone and your findings belong in the confidential report, not plastered on the walls. Sorry, but in this case, I think you went too far and probably deserved the "nasty" call.


I hope you were kidding Aaron.
If you actually did what you said above, I too would be a little PO'd.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, don't forget about our brethren in Kentucky. Under state law they are not allowed to tell the truth about Fire Producing Equipment (FPE)! They must tell their client that they need to spend another $100 or whatever to have a licensed electrician tell their client that the have an FPE and that their house could burn down if it is not replaced.


Yeah, I forgot about those in Kentucky, but, instead of saying 'this panel needs to be replaced', maybe they could say it differently - like 'have licensed electrician verify that this panel needs to be replaced'.

That way, they have stated 'this panel needs to be replaced', and fulfilled their legal obligation to have a licensed electrician say so.

Works for me. :D

[Jack Feldmann]

I would also be really pissed off should I come home and find someone has marked up my property.

Stage 2 Pissed off is when I call the guy that did it and he hangs up on me.

Stage 3 is when I place calls to the Realtor that represented the buyer explaining why I'm pissed.

Stage 4 is when I file a complaint with the State license Board against the guy that marked up my property.

Have to say Aaron, you might have not handled it the best possible way. Kind of like when I left the orange tape on the crappy roof and the sellers agaent got pissed at me. I apologized and when over and took them down.

JF

[Aaron Miller]

So, you don't think I really did this, huh?

I have actually called the electric company to have the service turned off to houses where extremely hazardous situations existed. They were lucky that I did not deem this one of those times. As an inspector I consider it my duty to insure the safety of anyone who may enter the premises. If I find a gas leak, I have the utility turn the gas off. If I find a significant property-damaging leak, I turn the water off at the meter. If I find a broken glass pane I duct tape it in place to prevent someone from being cut. The list is long . . .

I would much rather have an irate seller to deal with than a dead seller to explain to his heirs' attorney.

I'm not in the friendship business. I'm an inspector, the one who gets to deliver the bad news. The face the agents see when they have nightmares. The guy who saves my clients thousands of dollars each time my van rolls.

It's not my intent to do things the way you do them. To each his own.

Aaron:eek:

[Aaron Miller]

(understanding that #4 was meant as humor and not really personal)[/

Rick:

I never draw first blood. The best offense is a good defense. I think WC Jerry got the real meaning without taking offense. Hope so anyway.
Humor usually helps to get a message across.

Aaron:rolleyes:

[Aaron Miller]

I wasn't going to send this picture, but why not? This was before I found my Magic Marker . . . A CYA photo that shows I did due diligence in sealing the edges since all of the screws were missing for the panel front.

Aaron:)

[Eric Van De Ven]

If you had done that to my home, I would have done as Jack said, but gone to #4 stage and probably called the police and filed a complaint.

If I came home and found the power off or the water shut off, I would again find out who was responsible and file the appropriate complaints.

For the panel above, I wouldn't say anything to the homeowner. They will find out when the report gets released.

Here is an example: I inspected a home that had frayed overhead wiring. During the course of the inspection, the power went out to half the house. I contacted the Sellers Realtor who gave me the number to the Seller. I told him what had happened and asked his permission to call FPL to come out and replace the wires immediately. I told him he should do the same because they may not come out from my call as I am not the owner. He did.

FPL came out and replaced the wires about 2 hours later. When he got home, the power was on and all he had to do was reset the clocks. I finished the inspection the next day.

I have always believed that we are guests in someone else's home. I don't want guests to crap on my carpets! I also don't want them defacing my property or altering it in any way.

I would instruct other inspectors to be very careful as to what you do in someone else's home. In some parts, what you do may get you shot!

[Aaron Miller]

Eric:

As I have said often before, it's not my intent to do things the way you do them. Each of us does whatever he or she is comfortable with. You should perhaps do things your way and don't spend too much time worrying about how I get my work done. Or, spend all day worrying about it if it makes you feel better. Whatever works for you.

In both my contract and report I list the website address for complaint forms that can be sent to the Texas Real Estate Commission. I've done this for eleven years now and, though you probably can't quite believe it, I'm still in business. With no deaths or injuries on any of my jobsites. Imagine that . . .

Aaron:D

[Eric Van De Ven]

Eric:

As I have said often before, it's not my intent to do things the way you do them. Each of us does whatever he or she is comfortable with. You should perhaps do things your way and don't spend too much time worrying about how I get my work done. Or, spend all day worrying about it if it makes you feel better. Whatever works for you.

Aaron,
I wasn't telling you how to do whatever it is that you do! I assure you, I am not concerned in the least with how you do things. I am concerned that others may think it is the right way.

How would you feel if you came home and your home wasn't the way you left it?

I was always taught to leave the house the way I found it. I would suggest others do the same.

Just for goofs, how would you feel if you found out that when the homeowner got home, he saw what you did, got pissed off and ripped the cover off of the wall and in the process got electrocuted?
Who did you save now?

[Aaron Miller]

Another HGTVer bites the dust?:confused:

[Jerry McCarthy]

Cute riposte regarding “evaluation” Aaron and I wouldn’t argue that recommending further evaluations is not proper protocol in the appropriate situation, just plain overused in our industry as I’ve said. A good Doc usually recognizes what ails us and prescribes the proper medication, but when not sure suggests further evaluation by a specialist. All good and proper, but what I specifically refer to is the general overuse of “recommend further evaluation” by far too many cover-my-ass-at-all-cost inspectors whose fear of “suits” overrides good judgment. “Somebody put their fist through the middle of the master bedroom door and left a really ugly hole in it. I recommend further evaluation by an ugly hole specialist.” I rest my case. :D

PS: at first I thought WC Jerry was a reference to water-closet Jerry?

[Billy Stephens]

--- I recommend further evaluation by an ugly hole specialist.” --


Shouldn't that be A Qualified Professional (licensed if required ) Ugly Hole Specialist? ;)

[Aaron Miller]

WC Jerry:

Well said, and I agree it is overused. The main culprits are those who know not what to say about a situation so they let someone else say it for them . . .

Now I'm from Texas, Jerry. We don't call them water closets here.

Aaron:eek:

[Jerry Peck]

Now I'm from Texas, Jerry. We don't call them water closets here.

Aaron,

Y'all call 'em "one-holers"? :)

'This house has two one-holers and a one two-holer.' :D

[Jim Zborowski]

ok jerry, does that mean yo only do #1 in the two one holers and have to go to the 2 holer for # 2????????????????

[Jerry McCarthy]

This appears to be a serious thread drift?

[John Arnold]

Does this help resolve the thread drift?
I'm just asking.

[Jerry Peck]

John,

That sign tells you where to go P ...

... but it does not tell you where to go S ...

... unless P has a double meaning.

[Richard Rushing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/images/ca_evo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/6117-floored-panel.html#post34304)
Now I'm from Texas, Jerry. We don't call them water closets here.



Aaron,

Y'all call 'em "one-holers"? :)

'This house has two one-holers and a one two-holer.' :D
__________________
Jerry Peck
Construction Consultant
Ormond Beach, Florida

Nope... we don't call'em one holer's.
Theyre A.H.C.D's
(a-hole centering devices):D

RR