Realtors Top Inspector

[David Banks]

Just got back from vacation and stopped at my brother in-laws brand new home in Georgia. Told him I would look around for him, but he assured me it was the Realtors top inspector. Top Inspector says nothing wrong with the house. This is what I found in a 15 minute search without offending his new house. Have to walk a fine line as I did not want to come across as being critical of his new home, as it was quite nice for the money he paid compared to MA.
Pics tell the story. WH flue in attic buried in insulation.
:Improper support for flue in attic.
:Shingles overhang around whole house is excessive with no drip edge. He is on top of a hill with high winds. By the way everywhere I drove around in his area almost all the roofs were done this way Georgia Inspectors out there Why?
:TPR WH a classic.
: Sub floor in upstairs large foyer area was loose. Very noticeable creaking noise when I walked. The boys missed some nails.(Covered with carpet)

[Jack Feldmann]

TPR is really odd. I couldn't tell, but is that a valve on the lower part?

[Jim Robinson]

Valve to drain the water that collects in the trap at the bottom. How you would know when water was in there is beyond me.

[Rick Hurst]

If he got a good attorney, he could probably live without a mortgage after the attorney got through with that inspector in court.

[Jim Zborowski]

If that's tyhe top insp. you have to wonder about the worst.

[Scott Patterson]

That TPR is just wrong. As for the a drip edge on the roof. It is very common throughout the south not to see a metal drip edge, one of the reasons for lager shingle overhang.

[Nick Ostrowski]

As soon as somebody says the inspector said there was nothing wrong with the house, you know something is going to pop up.

[David Banks]

That TPR is just wrong. As for the a drip edge on the roof. It is very common throughout the south not to see a metal drip edge, one of the reasons for lager shingle overhang.

Scott. I was wondering about that as I saw a lot of it. How do you guys deal with that as most Shingle manufactures installation instructions I have read says no more than 1/2-3/4 overhang at rakes and eaves.
They are overhanging so far it looks like they will crack at rake.

[Scott Patterson]

Scott. I was wondering about that as I saw a lot of it. How do you guys deal with that as most Shingle manufactures installation instructions I have read says no more than 1/2-3/4 overhang at rakes and eaves.
They are overhanging so far it looks like they will crack at rake.

Many times builders will run a 1x1 piece of wood along the top of the fascia right at the rake or edge of the roof. I have heard it called a cornice trim board, wooden drip edge, and fascia drip trim. The idea is that it will provide some support for the shingle overhang.

As for what the shingle manufacturers say, well we all know that everyone follows the installation instructions. After all they are only suggestions! :D

[Bruce King]

The definition of "realtors top inspector" must be understood.

To me it means an average or even below average inspector that has a soft report. The agents in one office near here clap with joy when they learn certain inspectors are doing their listing.


I would guess only 5 percent of realtors truly want a thorough inspection.

Some like the reports that are hard to read, they know that the average person will not take the time to sift through all the check marks and vague descriptions of problems.

I have had some interesting conversations with many realtors, they admit that they can not afford to have me inspect their bread and butter houses.

I am very careful not to overstate items also, simple observations and explanations. Luckily, I don't even need any realtor refferals. The buyers are getting smarter these days!

[David Banks]

Many times builders will run a 1x1 piece of wood along the top of the fascia right at the rake or edge of the roof. I have heard it called a cornice trim board, wooden drip edge, and fascia drip trim. The idea is that it will provide some support for the shingle overhang.

As for what the shingle manufacturers say, well we all know that everyone follows the installation instructions. After all they are only suggestions! :D

Are they suggestions or will it void the warranty? This is brand new construction. I saw what appeared to be a broken shingles at the overhang and looks like they will crack at the overhang. I guess I will recommend he find out who the manufacture of his shingles are and get the Installation instructions and he can go from there.

[Scott Patterson]

Are they suggestions or will it void the warranty? This is brand new construction. I saw what appeared to be a broken shingles at the overhang and looks like they will crack at the overhang. I guess I will recommend he find out who the manufacture of his shingles are and get the Installation instructions and he can go from there.

If you have every looked at the label on a package of shingles, I think they call them installation guidelines. Then you have to look at the warranty itself, it really is not much of anything. It cover the shingles and that is it. They pay only for the defective shingles, so really it is more fluff than substance.

Now if a shingle is defective and the failure can be attributed to a defect in the manufacturing process then chances are that the warranty will cover the shingles regardless of how they are installed. Defective products do not do well when it ends up in court.

It should be fairly simple to find out what brand is on his home. It might even be in his closing packet that tells about all of the products that have a warranty in his home.

I just checked the Owens Corning site and they have a wealth of information on their products, including all of the installation instructions and warranty information.

While reading the installation instructions I found this little tidbit! Apparently they want you to use Plywood for the decking.

Precautionary Notes
The manufacturer will not be responsible for problems
resulting from any deviation from the recommended
application instructions and the following precautions:
(A) Roof Deck: Recommended roof decks are 6" maximum width,
25⁄23" minimum thickness wood sheathing, or 3⁄8" minimum thickness
plywood sheathing. Use plywood decking recommended by the
American Plywood Association, Underwriters Laboratories, Inc., or
local building codes. These Owens Corning shingles have been
tested and rated as Class A by Underwriters Laboratories
when these shingles are applied over recommended decks.
If other decks are used, the resulting construction may not
qualify as Class A.
Precautionary Notes (cont.):
Regardless of deck type used, the roofi ng installer must:
1. Install the deck material in strict compliance with the deck
manufacturer’s instructions.
2. Prevent the deck from getting wet before, during and after
installation.
3. Ensure the attic ventilation meets or exceeds FHA Minimum
Property Standards.

Owens also says this about preping the deck:

Deck Preparation
For Standard Slope Decks — 4"
in 12" or more
Application of underlayment, metal
drip edges and eaves fl ashing:
(A) Apply one layer of underlayment
over metal drip edge at eaves. Use
only enough fasteners to hold in place.
(B) Overlap successive courses 2".
Overlap course ends 4". Side laps are
to be staggered 6' apart.
(C) Apply metal drip edge over
underlayment at rake.
Note: Where ice-damming may
cause leaks, apply Owens Corning
WeatherLock® waterproofi ng
underlayment or equivalent eaves fl ashing at least 24" beyond
the inside wall line. When using a coated smooth roll or mineral
surfaced roll roofi ng, apply over the underlayment. When using
a specialty eaves flashing product, follow the manufacturer’s
instructions.

So as we can see bunches of stuff are required, but as we all know they are seldom done. I'm betting that the other shingle manufacturers have similar requirements.

[Jerry McCarthy]

To add onto Scott’s advice I’ve long preached that the next time you’re at a tract or new home under construction pick up any loose manufacturer’s installation instructions and bring them home, read and save them. You will become well versed in how the manufacturers want their product installed and become far more alert to when something doesn’t appear to be right. Remember, manufacturer’s installation instructions often trumps code plus a scanned mfg. installation doc. usually results in silencing any argument about one’s call.

[Jerry Peck]

If he got a good attorney, he could probably live without a mortgage after the attorney got through with that inspector in court.

Worth repeating.

[Rick Hurst]

OK :D

If he got a good attorney, he could probably live without a mortgage after the attorney got through with that inspector in court.

[Jerry Peck]

Was that a 3-peat? :D

[neal lewis]

David, did you actually read the report and verify what your brother-in-law told you?

[Rob Pakula]

OK :D

If he got a good attorney, he could probably live without a mortgage after the attorney got through with that inspector in court.

because he missed some petty details (if he really did, this is new construction,local goverment inspected this probable several times already) What amount would you sue for this? Less than court first initial filing fee.

[Jon Randolph]

I would guess only 5 percent of realtors truly want a thorough inspection.


That number, though low, still seems a little high to me.

[Scott Patterson]

because he missed some petty details (if he really did, this is new construction,local goverment inspected this probable several times already) What amount would you sue for this? Less than court first initial filing fee.

That all depends on how slimy the attorney is and if the builder has any insurance to pay for a lawsuit. Or if the builder is a real big national builder their pockets and legal team could keep this in court for many years, then you need to decide if you have the funds to keep it going.

Now if you are thinking of suing the home inspector, they would need to have E&O. Right now GA has no home inspector license law so I would be willing to bet that this feller has no E&O. Then you next move would be to the real estate agent since the inspector was recommended by her. And it would be the same with their E&O.

Lawsuits are not free and an attorney (95% of the time) will only take a case on a contingency fee if insurance is involved.

Most likely the owner also signed some form or paper that they need to let the builder know of any problems so that they can repair them, etc.

Most courts have gotten away from the huge judgements that we had back int he 1990's and earlier. Tort law reform has happened in many states. Many of the lawsuits that I have worked on as a litigation consultant or an expert on homes that had construction defects resulted in the home being properly repaired and the attorney and court fees being paid by the defendant. I can't really think of the last time "pain and suffering" damages were awarded.

[David Banks]

David, did you actually read the report and verify what your brother-in-law told you?

Neal. No I did not. He had just moved in and he could not even find the WH manual. But he did say nothing was on the report and the Inspector said it was a new house, great builder and there were no issues. But you bring up a good point as my other thread ( Dead end Flue) do people even read the reports. When I send him my findings I will ask him to send me a copy of the HI Report. I enjoy looking at others reports anyway.

[Bob White]

I'll jump in on the TPR discharge thing ----

Georgia's change to the 2006 IPC (my bold):
*Delete Section 504.6 ‘Requirements for discharge piping’ and substitute the following:
504.6 Requirements for discharge piping. The relief valve shall discharge full size, separately to a safe place of disposal such as a concrete floor, outside the building, an indirect waste receptor, or other approved location. The discharge shall terminate in a manner that does not cause injury to occupants in the immediate area or structural damage to the building. When the relief valve discharge piping goes upward, a thermal expansion control device shall be installed on the cold water distribution or service pipe in accordance with Section 607.3.2. If the discharge pipe is trapped, provisions shall be made to drain the low point of the trapped portion of the discharge pipe.

(Effective January 1, 2007)




So, it looks like the water heater intall is unsatisfactory due to the lack of an expansion tank (or pressure relief valve). By my great state's idiotic code, the TPR discharge piping, as long as that drain valve is there, is OK. (Well, it's not OK, but it's legal)

[John Badger]

It's been awhile since I've posted here. How's everyone doing?

Adding to Bob’s contribution this is what I see in the Atlanta area.

Many of local AHJ’s approve an alternate to the expansion tank. It’s a pressure relief valve placed somewhere in the homes cold water piping system; usually under the kitchen sink or above the water heater. It vents to the outside of the home in a smiliar fashion as the TPR relief pipe.

Check it out. It's either this valve or one very similar to it.

Watts: 530C | Pressure-Only Relief Valves | Water Safety & Flow Control (http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull_tree.asp?catId=64&parCat=293&pid=803&ref=2)

Many home inspectors fall prey to this and call out a missing expansion tank.

[David Banks]

Thanks Bob and John. Now I am really confused. I always thought this was Basic HI 101. Is Georgia the only state that has amended the IPC in this manner. It goes against all I have read anywhere. I have a Watts TP ASME safety relief valve PDF that clearly shows this setup is wrong. I do not want to give my brother in law the wrong info but I also want his family to be safe. I guess I will tell him it may be legal in Georgia but not correct or safe.
What do you guys think of the shingle overhang thing? Is this common around your areas?
Thanks for any info

[Scott Patterson]

Thanks Bob and John. Now I am really confused. I always thought this was Basic HI 101. Is Georgia the only state that has amended the IPC in this manner. It goes against all I have read anywhere. I have a Watts TP ASME safety relief valve PDF that clearly shows this setup is wrong. I do not want to give my brother in law the wrong info but I also want his family to be safe. I guess I will tell him it may be legal in Georgia but not correct or safe.
What do you guys think of the shingle overhang thing? Is this common around your areas?
Thanks for any info

As for the TPR valve you need to resort back to the manufacturers(Watts) requirements. They trump the code.

The shingle overhang is what it is. It is common in some areas and not in others.

[Bob White]

Thanks Bob and John. . . . I have a Watts TP ASME safety relief valve PDF that clearly shows this setup is wrong. I do not want to give my brother in law the wrong info but I also want his family to be safe. I guess I will tell him it may be legal in Georgia but not correct or safe. ....

Thats pretty much what I do, If they're at the inspection I explain how the TPR and discharge line should work, show them the yellow tag on the TPR valve that specs the discharge piping, then pretty much read the code verbatim, and explain that if they want to make it right, they'll pretty much have to do it on their own dime, 'cause they won't get relief from AHJ's, builders, etc.

As for the shingle's overhinging the roof, I haven't seen as much overhang as in your photo yet --- but I've never, ever seen a drip edge actually installed on a house. Lots of houses from the 80's/ early 90's in my area don't have underlayment until the first roof is torn off and replaced.

[Michael Greenwalt]

I didn't see it addressed but Davids first comment was ragarding the WH flue buried in insulation.
David, as I understand it, from every blown-wool manufacture website I have visited, the product is not combustible; one of the distinct advantages of blown wool.
Note: It isn't actually wool but a non-combustible glass mineral wool.
Hope that helps.

Michael

[Wayne Carlisle]

On the WH! It's supposed to be new but am I seeing it wrong or is the flue penetrating the ceiling the old asbestos kind? Or are my eyes getting worse?

Is this in the county where there are not any inspectors? If not...that's a sad situation!

Really don't see a problem with the insulation against the pipe.

The picture in where the flue is supported between the two 2X4's...what would you write up? The code isn't specific on the types of material to support the flue just that it be adequatly supported for the design and weight of the materials employed.

The shingles....all homes that I have seen have the metal drip edge. Some (the metal drip edge) have a metal overhang of 3/4" and others only have the 90° angle that covers about 1 1/2" to 2" of the deck and 1 1/2" of the facia. Most of them have the 1X2 too along the facia!

[Ted Menelly]

Rick, Jerry, jerry, Scott and all you inspectors. Please help me here. The statements you are making about an attorney and paying thru the nose and living mortgage free for a while and so on.

Remember one thing. Most of you folks are still inspectors. Please stop with the attorney stuff. At best advise to consult with the builder and show him the items in poor workmanship (or seller, or inspector) and give them a chance to make right. Jumping right into the attorney thing. That is what is wrong with society today. No one ever tries to handle things on their own. They go right out and get another inspector then an attorney and see what they and the lawyer and litigation guy and so on can get out of it.

If anyone should not be talking lawyers it should be you inspector folks. Give some good advise and get into the proper human way of handling things. If all that fails then go the lawyer route and sue the crap out of him. But please not the lawyer first. The man to man, concern for concern approach is the only thing that should be thought about at this point in time. A lawyer should not come into play or even be mentioned unless all else fails.

Shoot. My little ranger got broad sided 2 weekends ago. From what I hear here I should have fell out the door after I got hit and been crying on the ground. Oh, my back, oh, my neck, oh the family jewels. Them waited for the ambulance. When in the ambulance called my attorney and then went the whole scam of seeing the top dollar I could have gotten out of it.

Hmmm. What a fool. I do have debt to pay off. Well, I guess I could now start feeling the affects of the crash. Hmm. What was that lawyers number????????? I do already have a bad back. I guess the crash could have brought another episode on with the jolt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[David Banks]

I didn't see it addressed but Davids first comment was ragarding the WH flue buried in insulation.
David, as I understand it, from every blown-wool manufacture website I have visited, the product is not combustible; one of the distinct advantages of blown wool.
Note: It isn't actually wool but a non-combustible glass mineral wool.
Hope that helps.

Michael

Michael. My understanding from past posts on this subject is that it is not the combustible material per say but that the vent manufacturer requires 1 inch clearance so the vent pipe does not get to hot and fail.

[Wayne Carlisle]

Dave, how do you figure that? The B-vents state "from combustionables". It it were because of the vent getting too hot it wouldn't say combustionables it would say X clearance from all materials.

Even though I do think that the insulation should be away from the B-vent because that may make it hotter (not being able to dissipate heat) and then have something to do with the X amount of clearance to combustionables. It could affect that distance by insulating it.

Just a thought here!

Wayne

[Matt Shapiro]

Shoot. My little ranger got broad sided 2 weekends ago. From what I hear here I should have fell out the door after I got hit and been crying on the ground. Oh, my back, oh, my neck, oh the family jewels. Them waited for the ambulance. When in the ambulance called my attorney and then went the whole scam of seeing the top dollar I could have gotten out of it.



As a paramedic for the past 18 years, I have actually had to wait to extricate people out of there cars after an accident because they were on the phone with their lawyers!

We always go on vehicle accidents that were low speed and no damage, but the people complain about neck/back/head pain. I actually had a lady years ago who told me she could not see after the accident( no damage to the vehicle...and no she was not blind before the accident!). We always diagnosed these people with "Prudentialitis".

It is amazing to see how often these things happen.

Anyways, I can always give you the inside tips on a being the best actor you can be after an accident!! We can get you an academy award and money!

[Jerry Peck]

We always go on vehicle accidents that were low speed and no damage, but the people complain about neck/back/head pain.

Sounds like my "low speed" accident when they ran into me on my bicycle with their car, except that it mangled my bicycle, through me onto their hood (crushing it) where I was looking at two ladies covering their heads with their hands, screaming ... and THEN hit the brakes, which threw me to the road.

I guess I just had no sense of fair play ... :) ... I got up and tried to straighten my bicycle out so I could continue on ... :D


Anyways, I can always give you the inside tips on a being the best actor you can be after an accident!! We can get you an academy award and money!

No academy award for acting here, but I'm still seeing the doctor, have torn tendons in my right shoulder, liquid in my left shoulder, and my left knee (which took the force of the hit) still hurts.

Yes, I do have an attorney, but I waited a week or so to get one, waiting to "get all better", which did not happen, so, now I've been told my right shoulder has what is called "a permanent injury".

Yeah, I'd like my medical bills paid and some extra for the pain, and for the fact that the pain is not going to be going away anytime soon, so the doctor says.

Not everyone who goes with an attorney is 'looking for easy money', some just want it 'taken care of right'. I doubt I'll see too much, but then, I'm not looking for a lot either - not unless they (the other insurance company) wants to fight it, then I might as well make it all worth the fight. Like most, it starts out as 'their call to step up and do the right thing' not a big problem, when they fail to do that (do not know that yet) then they make it a big problem for themselves.

Don't always jump on the ones getting hit and hiring an attorney, remember, THEY WERE 'THE HITTEE', not 'the hittor' ;) . Their problem was "being in the wrong place at the wrong time *when someone else* did not do as they should have". It is that simple (in many cases - admittedly, not all).

[Ted Menelly]

Fortunately the guy that hit me said to me and then my insurance company and then to his insurance company that "I just did not see the guy. I was making a u turn and the next thing I new I was driving into the side of his truck".

His insurance company called me. I took the truck down to the auto body place. They gave me a 30,000 pick up to drive around for free. Story ended.

I do believe the older man thought I was going to get out swinging and he was in shock the whole time that I was talking and joking with him the whole time. Even in the end I said to him that it was nice having him run into me. That was the first smile out of him. We shook hands and drove off.

Now that is the way 2 honest men handle things with one another. That is how life is suppose to be. I respected that man more than anyone I have met in so long I cannot remember. Sometimes life is good. Most of the time it is how you go about living life.

God bless America. Oh yeah. He was a retired vet and in his mid sixties and still worked for American Airlines. Great guy.

[Rick Hurst]

Ted,

Not everyone's accident may work out as such.

Ever been in an accident where the other person had no insurance. I have and was thankful that an attorney was available to help me out.

Sure we bash attorneys and laugh about it at times but they do provide a service just as we do.

As far as the reference to the homebuilders, I've just seen it too many times when one goes back to the builder with a problem and all the builder does is hide behind the fact the city allowed it. Doesn't matter that the builder could easily correct the problem most of the time, its their total lack of concern. So sometimes a lawyer is the only way to get their attention.

rick

[Ted Menelly]

I did add that if all else fails sue thr crap out off him.

As far as an accident where someone hit me and it did not go smoothly. Well, I just beet the crap out of him till he signed a statement :D

Just kidding. No it always does not go right. Just carry a baseball bat wrapped with rubber. Stop Ted. Just kidding again.

Lawyers are good for the final casting of the play. Not for the original try outs.

I did like the baseball bat with rubber around it.

[Jerry Peck]

As far as an accident where someone hit me and it did not go smoothly. Well, I just beet the crap out of him till he signed a statement :D

Do what the lawyer did to the doctor he hit (lawyer at fault, of course).

The lawyer gets out of his car, walks over to the doctor and makes sure the doctor is okay, then says 'Here, have a swig of this whiskey, it'll calm your nerves while we are waiting for the police.' :)

Police arrive and smell alcohol on the doctor's breath and ... :D

[Richard Pultar]

just another tract house

[Richard Pultar]

what do you sue for ..Mexican workmanship.

[Ron Bibler]

Looking at the underside of that plywood in the attic. it looks like it has a blackening condition. moisture ? poor ventilation ?

Best

Ron

[Jay Ray]

Have any images of the windows or doors? Curious to see if he looked for correct flashing!

[Michael Greenwalt]

Clearances are to combustibles, not to non-combustibles. It is fairly simple.

[David Banks]

Clearances are to combustibles, not to non-combustibles. It is fairly simple.

But the air space is required so the vent pipe functions the way it is intended.
Does not overheat. At least thats my understanding. May be wrong.

[Erby Crofutt]

From the Simpson Dura-Vent
TYPE-B GAS VENT INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS at:

http://www.duravent.com/docs/instruct/L204A_apr00.pdf

7. Construction. Laterals, offsets, and vertical components should be securely supported with wall straps, as previously described. Components of the vent which are in occupied areas should be enclosed to prevent accidental contact and damage to the vent system. Insure that insulation, building materials, or debris do not extend into the required clearance spaces.

From the frequently asked questions about B-Vent at:

Simpson Dura-vent (http://www.duravent.com/?page=faqs/bvent2.php)

13. Can I wrap B Vent with insulation?
No, B Vent cannot be wrapped with insulation

Seems pretty simple to me, Michael.
Insulation needs to stay OUTSIDE the clearance area.