Who Needs Conduit???

[Jeff Spencer]

Report text: Non-metallic sheathed wiring serving the range hood is not rated for unprotected installation and is subject to damage by stored items. The wire should be contained in flexible metal conduit or equivalent. Repair is recommended.

Realtor: That's awfully picky. I see that in almost every house I go in.

Owner (to wife): Honey, we own an electric meat slicer?

[Jerry Peck]

Report text: Non-metallic sheathed wiring serving the range hood is not rated for unprotected installation and is subject to damage by stored items. The wire should be contained in flexible metal conduit or equivalent. Repair is recommended.

Realtor: That's awfully picky. I see that in almost every house I go in.

HI's answer to real estate agent: You do? And you are STILL not advising your clients that this WILL BE on the home in$pection report, so either correct it or be prepared for it? WHY NOT?

:D

[Ray Babcock]

If exposed wiring in a garage wall is written up, exposed wiring in any cabinet should also be written up. Nuf sed.:cool:

[Rick Hurst]

Report text: Non-metallic sheathed wiring serving the range hood is not rated for unprotected installation and is subject to damage by stored items. The wire should be contained in flexible metal conduit or equivalent. Repair is recommended.

Realtor: That's awfully picky. I see that in almost every house I go in.

Owner (to wife): Honey, we own an electric meat slicer?


I understand the recommendation, but why the "stored items" comment. I've never seen a cookbook or some spices go amuck in the cabinet and start damaging the NM wiring.:D

State it should be protected and leave it at that.

rick

[Dom D'Agostino]

I've never seen a cookbook or some spices go amuck in the cabinet and start damaging the NM wiring.



This guy can run amok in your cabinets...:)

[Ted Menelly]

A cord and plug more durable than Romex??????????????????????????????


Thats all I have to say



?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????


Micro wave cord and plug run through cabinets all the time ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

Oh my

[Jerry Peck]

Micro wave cord and plug run through cabinets all the time

Incorrect.

That NM cable is 'run through' the cabinet.

The cord and plug is run 'into' the cabinet and plugs into a receptacle outlet there.

The cord and plug has a higher 'resistance to physical damage' rating in that NM cable is required to be protected from physical damage and those cords and plugs are not (not in the same way).

[Ted Menelly]

Incorrect.

That NM cable is 'run through' the cabinet.

The cord and plug is run 'into' the cabinet and plugs into a receptacle outlet there.

The cord and plug has a higher 'resistance to physical damage' rating in that NM cable is required to be protected from physical damage and those cords and plugs are not (not in the same way).

Yes, Yes

The cord and extend into the cabinet above. Yes I know about the requirements for protection. Just saying. I don't think the spices and cookbooks are going to mess with the nm cable.

[Jerry Peck]

Just saying. I don't think the spices and cookbooks are going to mess with the nm cable.

But the pots and pans put up there might.

[Roland Miller]

This is picky and if you read the NEC it becomes just your opinion. I have never seen damage to NM cable in kitchen cabinets nor in garages where exposed. There is absolutely no evidence a hazard exists..

[Jerry Peck]

This is picky and if you read the NEC it becomes just your opinion.

Not picky, and it is not just "opinion".

[Roland Miller]

So define "physical damage" according to the NEC and you will see if you are using this it becomes just your opinion.. :) Sorry you loose!

[Jerry Peck]

So define "physical damage" according to the NEC and you will see if you are using this it becomes just your opinion.. :) Sorry you loose!


From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
- 334.15 Exposed Work.
- - In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).
- - - (A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.
- - - (B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor.
- - - - Type NMC cable installed in shallow chases or grooves in masonry, concrete, or adobe, shall be protected in accordance with the requirements in 300.4(F) and covered with plaster, adobe, or similar finish.

From the reference above in 334.15, and, as you will note, there is nothing in this which exempts that NM cable from the requirements of 334.15.
- 300.11 Securing and Supporting.
- - (A) Secured in Place. Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes, cabinets, and fittings shall be securely fastened in place. Support wires that do not provide secure support shall not be permitted as the sole support. Support wires and associated fittings that provide secure support and that are installed in addition to the ceiling grid support wires shall be permitted as the sole support. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be secured at both ends. Cables and raceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids.
- - - (1) Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided and shall be permitted to be attached to the assembly. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be distinguishable by color, tagging, or other effective means from those that are part of the fire-rated design.
- - - - Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support wiring and equipment that have been tested as part of the fire-rated assembly.
- - - - - FPN: One method of determining fire rating is testing in accordance with NFPA 251-2006, Standard Methods of Tests of Fire Resistance of Building Construction and Materials.
- - - (2) Non–Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a non–fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided and shall be permitted to be attached to the assembly.
- - - - Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated equipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer’s instructions.

This states that, where subject to physical damage (in this case as defined in 334.15), and that NM cable, that it "shall be protected".
- 300.4 Protection Against Physical Damage.
- - Where subject to physical damage, conductors shall be protected.

[Jim Port]

This states that, where subject to physical damage (in this case as defined in 334.15), and that NM cable, that it "shall be protected".
- 300.4 Protection Against Physical Damage.
- - Where subject to physical damage, conductors shall be protected.

334.15 does not define physical damage. It specifys how the cable is to be protected if subject to physical damge.

OK, now where is the NEC definition of physical damage? There is no Article 100 definition to apply. Like Roland said it is a matter of interpretation.

No debate about needing protection if subject to the damage, it is that the lack of definition of the physical damage.

[Jerry Peck]

334.15 does not define physical damage. It specifys how the cable is to be protected if subject to physical damge.

OK, now where is the NEC definition of physical damage? There is no Article 100 definition to apply. Like Roland said it is a matter of interpretation.

No debate about needing protection if subject to the damage, it is that the lack of definition of the physical damage.

Which is covered by the other sections I posted, and is why I posted those other sections.

Exposure to physical damage means different things in different locations. Here is an example: Conductors running along an exterior wall 2 inches above grade, in Sch 40 PVC, or even in non-metallic liquid tight, is allowed. Now, take those same conductors, in that same conduit, but instead of them running along the wall 2 inches high above grade, they come up out of the ground - they are no longer allowed.

Thus, it would be difficult to "define" exposure to physical damage in a reasonably short definition, or even an unreasonably long definition.

[Jim Port]

Sorry Jerry,

Just didn't see how posting code sections about fire rated assemblies and ceiling wires was in any way germane to this discussion.

BTW, thanks for finally seeing what Roland and I have been saying.

[Jerry Peck]

Just didn't see how posting code sections about fire rated assemblies and ceiling wires was in any way germane to this discussion.

Not fire rated assemblies. Go back and read that again.

Have you read it again yet?

Did you see where 300.11(A) applies to non-fire-rated assemblies?

And thank you for seeing it as I have been stating it.:) You are learning, albeit slowly.

[Roland Miller]

Most of the code you posted is irrelevant. Unless specifically mentioned by example as being subject to physical damage it becomes just your opinion.

I think you recently chastised Jeff for posting code, at least what he posts is relevant.
score 2-0

[Jim Port]

From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
- 334.15 Exposed Work.
- - In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).
- - - (A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.
- - - (B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor.
- - - - Type NMC cable installed in shallow chases or grooves in masonry, concrete, or adobe, shall be protected in accordance with the requirements in 300.4(F) and covered with plaster, adobe, or similar finish.

From the reference above in 334.15, and, as you will note, there is nothing in this which exempts that NM cable from the requirements of 334.15.
- 300.11 Securing and Supporting.
- - (A) Secured in Place. Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes, cabinets, and fittings shall be securely fastened in place. Support wires that do not provide secure support shall not be permitted as the sole support. Support wires and associated fittings that provide secure support and that are installed in addition to the ceiling grid support wires shall be permitted as the sole support. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be secured at both ends. Cables and raceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids.
- - - (1) Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided and shall be permitted to be attached to the assembly. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be distinguishable by color, tagging, or other effective means from those that are part of the fire-rated design.
- - - - Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support wiring and equipment that have been tested as part of the fire-rated assembly.
- - - - - FPN: One method of determining fire rating is testing in accordance with NFPA 251-2006, Standard Methods of Tests of Fire Resistance of Building Construction and Materials.
- - - (2) Non–Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a non–fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided and shall be permitted to be attached to the assembly.
- - - - Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated equipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer’s instructions.

This states that, where subject to physical damage (in this case as defined in 334.15), and that NM cable, that it "shall be protected".
- 300.4 Protection Against Physical Damage.
- - Where subject to physical damage, conductors shall be protected.

Darn Jerry,

I totally missed how this would apply to a kitchen cabinet.

[Jerry Peck]

(red text is the part you totally missed)


From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
- 334.15 Exposed Work.
- - In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).
- - - (A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.
- - - (B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor.
- - - - Type NMC cable installed in shallow chases or grooves in masonry, concrete, or adobe, shall be protected in accordance with the requirements in 300.4(F) and covered with plaster, adobe, or similar finish.

From the reference above in 334.15, and, as you will note, there is nothing in this which exempts that NM cable from the requirements of 334.15.
- 300.11 Securing and Supporting.
- - (A) Secured in Place. Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes, cabinets, and fittings shall be securely fastened in place. Support wires that do not provide secure support shall not be permitted as the sole support. Support wires and associated fittings that provide secure support and that are installed in addition to the ceiling grid support wires shall be permitted as the sole support. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be secured at both ends. Cables and raceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids.
- - - (1) Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided and shall be permitted to be attached to the assembly. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be distinguishable by color, tagging, or other effective means from those that are part of the fire-rated design.
- - - - Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support wiring and equipment that have been tested as part of the fire-rated assembly.
- - - - - FPN: One method of determining fire rating is testing in accordance with NFPA 251-2006, Standard Methods of Tests of Fire Resistance of Building Construction and Materials.
- - - (2) Non–Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a non–fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided and shall be permitted to be attached to the assembly.
- - - - Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated equipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer’s instructions.

This states that, where subject to physical damage (in this case as defined in 334.15), and that NM cable, that it "shall be protected".
- 300.4 Protection Against Physical Damage.
- - Where subject to physical damage, conductors shall be protected.


You need to read the code sections, and, for your reading pleasure and ease, I included the referenced code sections so you would not be complaining about me only posting the part I wanted to - you can read those at your leisure and apply them to what they are applicable to, and when you find them not applicable to what is under discussion, you can discard them, working your way back to the basic code section which is applicable.

All for your reading enjoyment and pleasure.

Of course, it would have been simpler to *not* post the referenced section which were not applicable, but, hey, I knew you would complain and cry fowl then too, so why not give you some reading to do before you complained and cried fowl.

[Jim Port]

Not fire rated assemblies. Go back and read that again.

Have you read it again yet?

Did you see where 300.11(A) applies to non-fire-rated assemblies?

And thank you for seeing it as I have been stating it.:) You are learning, albeit slowly.

Yes I see where 300.11 deals with non-rated assemblies. However, I douubt that any would think that a kitchen cabinet would come anywhere close to how the Code defines that assembly.
(2) Non–Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a non–fire-rated floor–ceiling or roof–ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided and shall be permitted to be attached to the assembly.
- - - - Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated equipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer’s instructions.

Since the cabinet is not between the floor ceiling space or the ceiling roof space none of this applies.

And to clarify one more time I am not seeing it as you have been stating. You cannot just apply articles that are not related to the subject at hand.

BTW, the proper word would have been foul, not fowl. Chickens, ducks and geese are not related to this subject either.

[Jerry Peck]

Yes I see where 300.11 deals with non-rated assemblies. However, I douubt that any would think that a kitchen cabinet would come anywhere close to how the Code defines that assembly.

Try again, that is one of those I posted because it was referenced, but it is not applicable (as you so astutely figured out).


BTW, the proper word would have been foul, not fowl. Chickens, ducks and geese are not related to this subject either.

Yep, and spell check recognized that as a word, so I skipped right over it - however, on that, you are correct, I did mean 'I knew you would cry "foul" '. That's certainly an oops for me.

Out of graciousness, I have not been pointing out your spelling errors, such as the one above "douubt". :p :D

[Jim Port]

Try again, that is one of those I posted because it was referenced, but it is not applicable (as you so astutely figured out).


So why do you keep posting things that are irrelevant to the discussion? Didn't you just tell someone to avoid wasting server space?

[Roland Miller]

Jerry thinks he wins if he succeeds in confusing you:D

[Jerry Peck]

So why do you keep posting things that are irrelevant to the discussion? Didn't you just tell someone to avoid wasting server space?


Jerry thinks he wins if he succeeds in confusing you:D


You two need to learn to read.

Such as read this that I posted previously - it answers your "why" post it question before you even asked it.

(underlining, bold, and red text are to help you find what you are looking for regarding your posts above)
"You need to read the code sections, and, for your reading pleasure and ease, I included the referenced code sections so you would not be complaining about me only posting the part I wanted to - you can read those at your leisure and apply them to what they are applicable to, and when you find them not applicable to what is under discussion, you can discard them, working your way back to the basic code section which is applicable."

I usually do not post all the referenced code section, I usually simply state (not applicable) or something like that so that when someone who is reading the code section does not need to go to the other referenced code sections only to find they are not applicable to the discussion.

However, knowing you two, I graciously, for your reading pleasure, included them, so you would not think 'OH MY GAWD, WHY DIDN'T JERRY POST THAT' - I did, only now you are complaining that I did.

You guys need to (including, but not limited to): 1) learn to read; 2) learn to comprehend what you read; 3) learn to associate what you read with what is being discussed; 4) learn to disassociate what is not applicable to the discussion.

[Roland Miller]

Jerry that is really good advise--developed from your personal deficiencies I would imagine. Remember the things we like least in other people are the very ones we struggle with the most:) Have your tried channeling??

score 3-0

[Jerry Peck]

score 3-0


Yep. 3 - 0 as in Jerry 3 - Roland 0. Glad you finally understand.

[Jim Port]

I would think more of your answers if you cut out all the fluff not related to the issue at hand. It would show that you could decipher technical details and pick out what truly applies. Instead you post like you get paid per word, whether or not it is related.

Check out your advice in Post 42 from this thread
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/11437-20-receptacle-connection.html

[THOMAS HORNE]

Yes I see where 300.11 deals with non-rated assemblies. However, I douubt that any would think that a kitchen cabinet would come anywhere close to how the Code defines that assembly.
(2) Non?Fire-Rated Assemblies. Wiring located within the cavity of a non?fire-rated floor?ceiling or roof?ceiling assembly shall not be secured to, or supported by, the ceiling assembly, including the ceiling support wires. An independent means of secure support shall be provided and shall be permitted to be attached to the assembly.
- - - - Exception: The ceiling support system shall be permitted to support branch-circuit wiring and associated equipment where installed in accordance with the ceiling system manufacturer?s instructions.

Since the cabinet is not between the floor ceiling space or the ceiling roof space none of this applies.

And to clarify one more time I am not seeing it as you have been stating. You cannot just apply articles that are not related to the subject at hand.

BTW, the proper word would have been foul, not fowl. Chickens, ducks and geese are not related to this subject either.

This is only my personal opinion but volunteering for the Grammar Police weakens your argument rather than strengthening it. Among advocates of "Fair Fighting" practice in stating arguments it is known as "kitchen sinking."

Also I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I agree with Jerry Peck on this one. That cable is subject to physical damage. I would think that the serrated edge on the stored item in the photograph would make that at least strongly arguable.

But since the Supreme Court of the United States threw out "Neat and workman like manor" as unconstitutionally vague I could imagine that some would say that inspectors should never exercise any judgement at all.

I also seem to remember one of the nine oracles of the law saying "I may not be able to define it but I know what it is when I see it." during arguments on a pornography as free speech case.

I'll go a step further and admit that I am personally prejudiced against exposed Type NM cable being run anywhere that it is likely to have objects of any size or weight stored against it. Stored objects get moved and often they get moved by other stored objects so that the person who is causing that movement doesn't even know they are scraping or pressing on a cable. I'd cover it with something like the outside cover of a scrap piece of Wiremold. There is a piece lying around in most electrical shops I have worked out of.

--
Tom Horne

[Jerry Peck]

Tom,

While old threads make for good reading as to what had been addressed in the past ...

Replying to a 10 year old thread, especially with a quote, and a long post, is of no benefit to anyone.