American Society of Home Inspectors (ASHI) ethics assures quality ... - Eworldwire (p

[Brian Hannigan]

InspectionNews has just found the following information that might be of interest to you:


American Society of Home Inspectors (ASHI) ethics assures quality ... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/1-0&fd=R&url=http://newsroom.eworldwire.com/view_release.php%3Fid%3D18582&cid=0&ei=hZBESOuLDYLq_AHzroHHBA&usg=AFrqEze-mutr_G1OEh8TGpr5EOn-N0sQug)
Eworldwire (press release), NJ - 3 hours ago
Home inspection clients who hire ASHI members may now be assured that ASHI home inspectors have committed to a set of ethical obligations in their business ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/1-0&fd=R&url=http://newsroom.eworldwire.com/view_release.php%3Fid%3D18582&cid=0&ei=hZBESOuLDYLq_AHzroHHBA&usg=AFrqEze-mutr_G1OEh8TGpr5EOn-N0sQug)

[Randy Aldering]

"I. To be assured the inspector is objective in his or her reporting and will not knowingly understate or overstate the significance of reported conditions.

II. To be assured the inspector's opinion is based on genuine conviction within the scope of his or her education and experience."

Now, I am just wondering, from a potential client's perspective, what this means: "not knowingly understate or overstate the significance of reported conditions." And "within the scope of his or her education and experience" - it leaves one to wonder, is there a minimum that a client can expect?

Who decides the significance of home inspection findings? Is it the inspector, or the client? Can an inspector accurately determine what significance various findings should have to the client?

Just wondering ...

[Scott Patterson]

"I. To be assured the inspector is objective in his or her reporting and will not knowingly understate or overstate the significance of reported conditions.

II. To be assured the inspector's opinion is based on genuine conviction within the scope of his or her education and experience."

Now, I am just wondering, from a potential client's perspective, what this means: "not knowingly understate or overstate the significance of reported conditions." And "within the scope of his or her education and experience" - it leaves one to wonder, is there a minimum that a client can expect?

To me this would mean that the inspector will not make the findings sound worse than they are for the benefit of the buyer, and that the inspector will not under report what they find for the benefit of the seller or the agent.



Who decides the significance of home inspection findings? Is it the inspector, or the client?

It would be the client.


Can an inspector accurately determine what significance various findings should have to the client?

Just wondering ...

I don't think that this falls under the inspectors duty.

[Lewis Capaul]

All these "Assurances" sound good, but how does any Association, ASHI, NACHI, NAHI, etc. "ASSURE" that their members are following Association Rules or, as in this case, "Assurances"?

[Ron Bibler]

Q. How many of you put a job cost $ to each item in your reports?

I set a cost of repair next to each item in my reports.
This gives the buyer/seller an idea of what is wrong.

Now im not a standard HI. Im a structural Pest Building Inspector. I will cover just about everthing a HI will in my reports.

"I. To be assured the inspector is objective in his or her reporting and will not knowingly understate or overstate the significance of reported conditions.

II. To be assured the inspector's opinion is based on genuine conviction within the scope of his or her education and experience."

Best

Ron

[Rick Hurst]

Good question Lewis.

Has anyone ever had one of these organizations request a copy of your inspection after you have joined up to verify you are following their SOP's or inquired on your ethics?

Just curious

rick

[Dan Harris]

Good question Lewis.

Has anyone ever had one of these organizations request a copy of your inspection after you have joined up to verify you are following their SOP's or inquired on your ethics?

Just curious

rick

I had to summit 5 reports for review, and take a proctored ethics exam, prior to being marketed to the public as a certified member.

[Steven Meyer]

I had to summit 5 reports for review, and take a proctored ethics exam, prior to being marketed to the public as a certified member.

Dan

I think you have gotten this thread confused with your psychological exam.

Certified nut according to your doctor.

[Ted Menelly]

I live in a state that has requirements for licensing. I am not pushing State Licensing but it does accomplish one thing (and not much else). It gives you a standards of practice that is really not much different than say NACHI or ASHI and has a set format for the home inspection report. At least at the point of what a home inspection is and what you must inspect is laid out for you and your clients. I inspected in a couple of states previously where when I was there had no specific requirements at all for a home inspection. In those states you could call anything you want a home inspection and also leave it open to your clients to come back on you for anything they thought should have been included in a home inspection. The only thing protecting you was a flimsy contract at best that any good lawyer could tear apart if he was inclined.

Even though I had been inspecting, evaluating, building all my working life I took courses in home inspection to find out what a home inspection should include. I took the National Home Inspectors exam as well. When I came to Texas they ignored just about all previous experience and I had to take more courses and proctored tests thru each portion of the material and then a state proctored test for the Texas Real Estate Commission. I went into the code even though what we are tested on is based on code.

I do have a NACHI membership and once had an ASHI membership. With state licensing you really don't need a membership other than to paste a membership name on advertising and such. State licensing has minimum requirements for Home Inspector minimum continuing educational requirements. Personally (my opinion) Associations exist more towards the line of keeping the founder in continuous cash draw like too many religious organizations (I am a believer but just not into the particular religion end so please no comebacks).

You need to keep up to date with new codes as they come. I due not quote code to any client. I due tell them my inspections are based on code. I state my findings are just that, my findings and these items need further evaluation by the particular tradesman for possible repairs. I do not tell anyone that this "must" be repaired. Everything in a real estate transaction is negotiable. Neither party has to fix anything that I may find of concern and I also tell them such, but they should be repaired by someone for whatever deficiency the concern may have.

Belong to an association. Which one? Take your pic. They will help you keep up to date and at least have some form of big brother looking over your shoulder. Stay on sites like this and your associations website. They can't do anything but help. They all have their own opinions and viewpoints and you will form your own as well.

Woo hooo, was I writing a book. Sorry about that.

[Scott Patterson]

The associations really can not police their members to make sure that they are following the rules to the letter. Same as the licensed states really can't police every single inspection report.

The enforcement comes when the inspector screws-up! The folks like myself are hired to see if they did follow the standards, rules, etc. This is when enforcement happens!

ASHI probably makes the largest effort by check their members inspection reports in what is called "Verification".

[Ted Menelly]

This statement HMMMMMMMMMMMM

To be assured the inspector's opinion is based on genuine conviction within the scope of his or her education and experience.

That staement alone has got me wondering if I should have my cat become an inspector. "His education or experience" "genuine conviction" My cat is pretty smart and has great conviction.

Mr Scott Patterson. I just went to your website. Very impressive. Seriously, great credentials. I wish at times I had that kind of certification back ground. You are absolutely right. No state or association can follow every inspectors, or any other trade for that matter, job they have done. I was not bashing Associations even though part of what I said sounded like it. Being state licensed or belonging to an association helps one to keep from straying to the dark side and that is what it is meant to do. They also force individuals to a certain extent to keep abreast of changes. Like I said belonging to an association and or being state licensed is a good thing as well as going to these type of sites.

[Kevin Luce]

Mr Scott Patterson. I just went to your website. Very impressive. Seriously, great credentials. I wish at times I had that kind of certification back ground.

Be careful what you wish for, everything comes with a price. My wife would kill me working full time doing home inspections, then going to meetings, spending time volunteering, going to educational classes and lastly spending time here on the computer. Then trying to have a social life for myself and with my wife and lastly spending quality time with my family when needed or when circumstances arise. It's not easy to do.

[Ted Menelly]

I should have added that between being to busy most of the time and when times do get a little slow and I start rounding up work again, it is far more than a full time job. Oh yeah, I am the bread winner in the family so I don't have time to sneeze most of the time. Isn't that always the way when you are self employed of any kind. Either to busy working or to busy getting work.

I laugh when people tell me they want to be a home inspector and make there own hours. When I tell them that if you do 2 inspections a day it turns into a minimum of 10 hours (if not more)between inspections, driving time, reports, sending off PDF's and oh yeah, answering the phone to line up more work and also going over questions clients may have about their reports.

That is why I said that "I wish at times I had that kind of certification back ground"

You stole my age old saying. "watch out what you wish for"

[Steven Meyer]

Assure quality? How can an organization assure that?

All of this sounds good, and is in reality common sense good business practice.

Who is going to "police" the renegade inspector?

With inspectors all over the country, how are you going to investigate any complaints?

And, if the complaint is valid, what are the consequences?

There are always bad apples out there. The free market usually takes care of that.

And, why, now, is ASHI putting forth what I would consider common, ethical business practices? Should that have not always been the case?

It has to be inforceable, with consequences for bad behavior.

[Kevin Luce]

Assure quality? How can an organization assure that?

All of this sounds good, and is in reality common sense good business practice.

Who is going to "police" the renegade inspector?

With inspectors all over the country, how are you going to investigate any complaints?

And, if the complaint is valid, what are the consequences?

There are always bad apples out there. The free market usually takes care of that.

And, why, now, is ASHI putting forth what I would consider common, ethical business practices? Should that have not always been the case?


It has to be inforceable, with consequences for bad behavior.

This reminds me of many state laws that get created but yet the old ones that deal with the same subject never got enforced.

[Scott Patterson]

And, why, now, is ASHI putting forth what I would consider common, ethical business practices? Should that have not always been the case?

It has to be inforceable, with consequences for bad behavior.

The ASHI Ethics are not new. They have been around for since ASHI was formed, almost 35 years ago. The latest revision to the Ethics happened about a year ago. This revision really did not change the ethics but just cleaned up some verbiage. The ASHI Standards and Ethics are both living documents that evolve and change with the profession. I hope that other organizations do the same.

Just this past year we saw NAHI change their Ethics back to where they did not allow their members to do repair work on previous inspections.

[Michael Greenwalt]

This:

To be assured the inspector is objective in his or her reporting and will not knowingly understate or overstate the significance of reported conditions.

Just violated this:

To be assured the inspector did not compensate the real estate agent or other party for the referral to the client.

[Brandon Chew]

If I could go back to the original post for a moment ...

Is this "Client Bill of Rights" thing something that ASHI has issued, or is it something the inspection company created and is using for marketing purposes? I noticed that the "press release" is from an inspection company and not from ASHI national.

[Steven Meyer]

This reminds me of many state laws that get created but yet the old ones that deal with the same subject never got enforced.




Code of ethics works, only if the inspector is ethical.

Enforcement works, only if enforced.

This "new" ASHI standard is just fluff and window dressing.
The words mean nothing, sounds good, touchy, feely, we're there for you. No method of discovery, no consequences for bad behavior. The bark is bigger than the bite!!!!
The best enforcer, the free market. The good will will drive out the bad.

[Ted Menelly]

I politely ask. What does a free market mean. Does it mean no one inspector has any particular guideline to follow?

I do not remember ASHI that well but if some one is found to be unethical or is found to not follow the SOP they will no longer be a member. No, it does not keep them from inspecting and certainly does not mean they can have legal ramifications.

On the other hand if some one is state licensed and they do unethical inspecting and or do not follow the SOP and there are complaints about them and are found to be true they can be held accountable to there actions and possibly lose their license and will not be able to inspect in that state again.

If some one plain ole messes up in an unlicensed state and slithers their way out of a law suit from their client or has a wide open contract that tells the client that no matter what, they only have to pay the inspection fee back. How is this possibly protect future clients or the inspection industry as a whole.

By this states law, unless you have a state license number you cannot even do any advertising or promoting as such.

Where does or what constitutes a Home Inspection. What are the minimal limits and what are the ending boundaries of a home inspection. I personally do not offer warranties on my inspections. Why, because then I am extending the inspection past the time of the home inspection. I do not use IR cameras because I do not want any thoughts in any clients or Realtors heads that I can diagnose anything that I see through the drywall of a home. An IR camera, no matter what anyone says (my opinion) is nothing like checking a water stain or possible moist baseboard with a moisture meter, period.

There has to be a line where the minimum and the farthest extent on what a home inspection is.

I cannot believe my own eyes about what I am writing. I personally hate anyone trying to tell me what I can and cannot do but there has to be something somewhere that starts and ends a home inspection. If you want to be the most technically exhaustive inspector then pic a particular field of inspection (electrical, etc) but do not keep stretching the boundaries of home inspection or keeping it at everyone makes up there own rules and it becomes a farce (my opinion)

Boy, now I hate myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kevin Luce]

Code of ethics works, only if the inspector is ethical.



Enforcement works, only if enforced.



This "new" ASHI standard is just fluff and window dressing.


The words mean nothing, sounds good, touchy, feely, we're there for you. No method of discovery, no consequences for bad behavior. The bark is bigger than the bite!!!!


The best enforcer, the free market. The good will will drive out the bad.


What they wrote (enforced or not) cannot hurt anyone unless they belong to ASHI. If it hurts somebody that belongs to ASHI, they always have the right to go someplace else.

[Ted Menelly]

Here I go again, man I am really hating myself more by the minute. You folks don't know me from Adam but I must tell you I do not know anyone quite like myself that hates (that's not a strong enough word) someone telling me what to do. In saying that I will make comment on Kevins thought about going somewhere else.

Am I about to say this???????????

If they where state licensed and screwed up to much there will not be anywhere for them to go with the exception of an unlicensed state. I guess they could go to a licensed state that does not check on their background and be an inspector until they screw up there. Is the words screwed up allowed on here??????

[Kevin Luce]

While you are writing, what else bothers you?;)

[Ted Menelly]

Well, I did just cut a fingure nail to short. Whoa is me.

[Scott Patterson]

I don't know how this thread ended up in the direction it went, but the link that Brian posted that started this thread has to do with a new marketing document that ASHI members can use. In the link that Brian posted Michael used the press release that was prepared by ASHI's PR firm for members to use. The ASHI Ethics are an entirely independent document from this, but they have some similarities and share the same ideology.

Published June 2008

American Society of Home Inspectors® (ASHI®) Client Bill of Rights

As a profession, home inspectors have an ethical obligation to the public. This obligation includes integrity, competency, honesty, confidentiality, objectivity and an interest in public safety. Fulfilling this obligation will promote and preserve public confidence in the profession. In recognition of this obligation, we hereby promote and proclaim these rights for our clients.

I. To be assured the inspector is objective in his or her reporting and will not knowingly understate or overstate the significance of reported conditions.

II. To be assured the inspector’s opinion is based on genuine conviction within the scope of his or her education and experience.

III. To be assured the inspector stays current with the industry’s body of knowledge through continuing education.

IV. To be assured the inspector will not disclose inspection results or client information without client approval.

V. To be assured the inspector has not accepted any form of compensation for recommending contractors, services or products.

VI. To be assured the inspector will not offer to repair or replace for compensation any component covered by the ASHI Standards of Practice for one year after the inspection.

VII. To be assured future referrals to the inspector from real estate agents are not dependent on the inspection findings or the sale of the property.

VIII. To be assured the home inspector has no financial interest in the transaction.

IX. To be assured the inspector is not receiving compensation for the inspection from any other party.

X. To be assured the inspector did not compensate the real estate agent or other party for the referral to the client.

[Steven Meyer]

I guess my point is: You can'r mandate ethics, either you are or you are not ethical.

The standards Scott posts are fine and dandy, and certaintly good business pracices.

If a member of that association does not follow those guidelines, the worse that can happen to him is he is thrown out. For the unethical individual, that may not be such a big deal.

The market does weed out the bad inspector as the word gets around as to his lack of business ethics, or for any other reason concerning his reputation.

Therefore, if he gets thrown out, but keeps inspecting, the market place will catch on, and he will be out of business. Now, that should be a big incentive to do the right thing.

[Kevin Luce]

I know what you are saying but for an organization that is limited on what they can do, it's better than nothing.

In other words, you want to be an ASHI member, then you have to follow their rules. If you don't follow the rules and get caught, then they have the right to kick you out.

This does two things:
1. That person that was an ASHI member (for what ever reason he wanted to be a member), cannot be anymore.
2. That person cannot make ASHI look bad as a result from his future actions.

When I hire an employee, I will have him sign a paper informing him of what I expect from him including his appearance. If he can't follow my standards, then I will fire him. Can he still do home inspections? Yes. Will my company name be attached to his actions? NO.

To use it for marketing? A little strange to me.

[Ted Menelly]

Steve I have a question.

Your state does not require education to be a home inspector with the exception of this.

"While there are no educational requirements for Home Inspectors at this time, persons performing home inspections in the state are required to inspect for wood destroying organism and carry a structural pest inspection license"

It kinda sounds like rules and regulations. Your state requires that you inspect for wood destroting organisms but it has no reuirements for inspecting the home in general including no previous experience or education.

Seriously, whats up with that and just asking the question, how do you feel about that. I feel just the oposite. I have decades of past experience for inspecting homes and I do have a termite license (inactive). I believe there is way to much to be looking for in a home inspection to do both inspections so I set the termite inspection up with an outside company.

Just curious

Ted

[Deleted Account]

Due to the severity of the housing crisis, I do not see any association having the balls to enforce their ivory-tower decrees with the suspension of membership for noncompliance. This is merely the saber rattling of those whose power is mostly imaginary and devoid of any substance. To me it is a fitting tribute to those who have traded their birthright attempting to protect their market-share in exchange for the support of inept state home inspector licensing legislation... toothless lions whose roar is neither feared nor respected.

[Ted Menelly]

Mr. Joseph

Soooooooooooooooo, You have an ASHI quote on your home page and you are a NACHI member, oh yeah and your state is going to have licensing in a couple of years????????????????????????

Just some thoughts and curiosity.

[Steven Meyer]

Shortly we will have all the requirements for licensing you noted. New state licensing law goes into effect shortly. I am not sure as to the WDO if that will be a requirement, but hope that can be sub'ed out to the professionals in that industry. More of a liability issue for me than any thing else.

I am not a fan of state licensing per say, but if that ethics rule is a state requirement, then there is some teeth to it, other than that , it's worthless.

Won't know all the ins and outs of the new law until they get all the rules written up and in order. Not really looking forward to it, but the legislation could have been worse.



Steve I have a question.




Your state does not require education to be a home inspector with the exception of this.



"While there are no educational requirements for Home Inspectors at this time, persons performing home inspections in the state are required to inspect for wood destroying organism and carry a structural pest inspection license"



It kinda sounds like rules and regulations. Your state requires that you inspect for wood destroting organisms but it has no reuirements for inspecting the home in general including no previous experience or education.



Seriously, whats up with that and just asking the question, how do you feel about that. I feel just the oposite. I have decades of past experience for inspecting homes and I do have a termite license (inactive). I believe there is way to much to be looking for in a home inspection to do both inspections so I set the termite inspection up with an outside company.



Just curious



Ted

[Steven Meyer]

Like so many things, it "looks good" on paper (and for marketing) but really think it is a paper tiger!!!!

The marketing plan seems to be at odds with the ethics issue!!!!!



Due to the severity of the housing crisis, I do not see any association having the balls to enforce their ivory-tower decrees with the suspension of membership for noncompliance. This is merely the saber rattling of those whose power is mostly imaginary and devoid of any substance. To me it is a fitting tribute to those who have traded their birthright attempting to protect their market-share in exchange for the support of inept state home inspector licensing legislation... toothless lions whose roar is neither feared nor respected.

[Ted Menelly]

One thing I have learned when I moved to the DFW market place was that anyone taking a home inspectors course and passing the individual tests for each subject matter and then taking the state test and getting 120 out of 150 questions right you will come out as a "Professional Home Inspector"

You need absolutely no experience in the construction trades or anything else.

I pulled all active home inspection licenses up in the greater DFW marketplace (North Central Texas) and had to hold on to the left side of my chest. I don't have that list right now but there must be 12 to 1500 if I am not mistaken.

Twelve year old (and much more) companies with multiple inspectors are doing inspections for a minimum of 250.00 and giving away a free WDI (termite inspection) Even with a minimum of 250 and then I add 75.00 for an outside home inspector, I lose.

I stay busy all the time but it is about the toughest market I could have ever picked to move to.

Now, now, must be positive

[Deleted Account]

Mr. Joseph

Soooooooooooooooo, You have an ASHI quote on your home page and you are a NACHI member, oh yeah and your state is going to have licensing in a couple of years????????????????????????

Just some thoughts and curiosity.



Speak up, just what is it you are curious about, quit your stuttering and spit it out boy.

[Rick Souter]

[quote=Rick Hurst;45653]Good question Lewis.

Has anyone ever had one of these organizations request a copy of your inspection after you have joined up to verify you are following their SOP's or inquired on your ethics?

Just curious


In Canuck land, our equivalent association is CAHPI (Canadian Association of Home & Property Inspectors). Same Standards of Practice as ASHI. To become a full member of the organization, (once you have successfully completed their very challenging exam process) you must have completed 250 inspections, then submit the list of all 250 to CAHPI. They will choose 5 of those reports to scrutinize. Once you are accepted, there is a minumum number of educational hours required annually or you lose your membership status.
Rick

[Deleted Account]

In Canuck land, our equivalent association is CAHPI (Canadian Association of Home & Property Inspectors). Same Standards of Practice as ASHI. To become a full member of the organization, (once you have successfully completed their very challenging exam process) you must have completed 250 inspections, then submit the list of all 250 to CAHPI. They will choose 5 of those reports to scrutinize. Once you are accepted, there is a minumum number of educational hours required annually or you lose your membership status.
Rick


Same thing with ASHI.

[Ted Menelly]

Speak up, just what is it you are curious about, quit your stuttering and spit it out boy.

Well Little Man. What is it you are trying to say is all I am asking. You are bashing associations and state licensing but on your website you are pushing ASHI to the max and you are a NACHI member.

Like I said before, in case you actually did not get what my post was all about. What is it that you do believe in. You seam like (my opinion) the guy who goes to church on Sunday and then beats the Minister of the sermon because you did not like what he has to say. Little Man!!!!!!!!!!!

Not to mention down right ornery.

[Steven Meyer]

so, after you submit 250 inspections, they chose 5, and you "pass" those,
You're home free. What, then, is your process to verify the inspector continues to operate in the manner he did with the 250 inspections?

How can ASHI (or any org) assure compliance, if there is not a system in place to verify on a regular basis.

If yearly continueing ED is required, should not yearly proof of compliance to the COE be also required?

Or wait for a complaint, then deal with it? Therefore, you can not assure compliance because there is no way to do so. There is no proof of that.

Last, but not least, a report is NOT going to reveal any ethics violation.

That can only be done by visiting the property in question, and interiewing the parties to the transaction.

Many thingsa can be verified, ethics is not one of them. It's a personal choice.



[quote=Rick Hurst;45653]Good question Lewis.




Has anyone ever had one of these organizations request a copy of your inspection after you have joined up to verify you are following their SOP's or inquired on your ethics?



Just curious




In Canuck land, our equivalent association is CAHPI (Canadian Association of Home & Property Inspectors). Same Standards of Practice as ASHI. To become a full member of the organization, (once you have successfully completed their very challenging exam process) you must have completed 250 inspections, then submit the list of all 250 to CAHPI. They will choose 5 of those reports to scrutinize. Once you are accepted, there is a minumum number of educational hours required annually or you lose your membership status.


Rick

[Deleted Account]

Well Little Man. What is it you are trying to say is all I am asking. You are bashing associations and state licensing but on your website you are pushing ASHI to the max and you are a NACHI member.

Like I said before, in case you actually did not get what my post was all about. What is it that you do believe in. You seam like (my opinion) the guy who goes to church on Sunday and then beats the Minister of the sermon because you did not like what he has to say. Little Man!!!!!!!!!!!

Not to mention down right ornery.



Excuse me, I don't get an idiot who can write what they mean using friggin' correct English in proper sentences, guess that is why you became a home inspector the low entrance threshold.

Just for the record my association status is exclusive of my position on licensing. There is currently no licensing litmus test required to join NACHI or ASHI and both organizations have members on both sides of this issue, I am adamantly opposed to home inspector licensing.

Now what was your question?

[Ted Menelly]

Joe, your killing me hear. The stuff in the message, the idiot thing, the low threshold. Whats going on with you Joseph. You don't like what someone has to say and there an idiot. You wanted the direct questioning along with your boy comment so I gave it to you. Is there anything else?

Also Mr. Joseph. In case you did not read my posts I will tell you again. I am on both sides of the issue. I hate people telling me what I have to do but at the same time I think some form of regulation is necessary. State licensing is not adequate unless they are going to back it up with stricter background experience. If you stock shelves at walmart and decide to take a test and become a home inspector it is absolutely fine with my state and you are immediately a Professional Home Inspector. My post also noted 12 to 1500 home inspectors in North Central Texas. Why? Because it is the first state to have licensing and the Home Inspection Schools have marketed the hell out of Texas telling everyone of the Glories of becoming a home inspector. When Clients call you and ask how much for a home inspection you can give as many as you like a particular script and still only get X amount of inspections. They get a list from Realtors or from the Internet and continue on this list. I recently got a couple of potential clients to give me the names and prices of the people they called. If there prices are higher than mine they give the farm away offering everything free with the home inspection. If I go North of the Dallas area I can get much higher prices.

Hmmm, why am I explaining to you. You already depict me as an idiot.

[Brandon Chew]

Scott - Thank you for clearing that up!

Brandon


I don't know how this thread ended up in the direction it went, but the link that Brian posted that started this thread has to do with a new marketing document that ASHI members can use. In the link that Brian posted Michael used the press release that was prepared by ASHI's PR firm for members to use. The ASHI Ethics are an entirely independent document from this, but they have some similarities and share the same ideology.

Published June 2008

American Society of Home Inspectors® (ASHI®) Client Bill of Rights

As a profession, home inspectors have an ethical obligation to the public. This obligation includes integrity, competency, honesty, confidentiality, objectivity and an interest in public safety. Fulfilling this obligation will promote and preserve public confidence in the profession. In recognition of this obligation, we hereby promote and proclaim these rights for our clients.

I. To be assured the inspector is objective in his or her reporting and will not knowingly understate or overstate the significance of reported conditions.

II. To be assured the inspector’s opinion is based on genuine conviction within the scope of his or her education and experience.

III. To be assured the inspector stays current with the industry’s body of knowledge through continuing education.

IV. To be assured the inspector will not disclose inspection results or client information without client approval.

V. To be assured the inspector has not accepted any form of compensation for recommending contractors, services or products.

VI. To be assured the inspector will not offer to repair or replace for compensation any component covered by the ASHI Standards of Practice for one year after the inspection.

VII. To be assured future referrals to the inspector from real estate agents are not dependent on the inspection findings or the sale of the property.

VIII. To be assured the home inspector has no financial interest in the transaction.

IX. To be assured the inspector is not receiving compensation for the inspection from any other party.

X. To be assured the inspector did not compensate the real estate agent or other party for the referral to the client.

[Deleted Account]

I am on both sides of the issue.



The basic unfettered fact is you are either against the take over of our profession by the government through state licensing, or your not. This means that there is no fall back position, no condition whereby it would make sense to alter a stated plan of action and absolutely no discussion of compromise which equals capitulation & defeat. If it were any simpler you could spell it out with children's blocks... No Licensing.

[Ted Menelly]

Thanks Joseph. I appreciate your opinion.

[Steven Meyer]

Good one!!!

Scott states that the change was just to clean up the verbage.
Why??? Should have not that been one of the FIRST ethical issues addressed?

ASHI markets to the RE agents.
Agents need to be kept happy!
Inspectors pay to be on an approved list, then hide it as "advertising"!
Inspectors can not give cash, gifts, kick backs to agent for referrals.
Inspector writes "soft report"

Agent gets commission.

Appears to me that this is just another "kick back" method to the agent.




This:

To be assured the inspector is objective in his or her reporting and will not knowingly understate or overstate the significance of reported conditions.

Just violated this:

To be assured the inspector did not compensate the real estate agent or other party for the referral to the client.

[Steven Meyer]

Unfortunately, the licensing junkies are like little barking, nipping dogs as they shove licensing down everyone elses throat. They usually have the ear of a local political hack looking for votes for saving the consumer from himself.

About all a desenter can do, is to make every effort to "water down",and get rid of the most distastful portions of the bill.

Then the licensing junkie gets on the licensing board, and the fun begins as they "tweek" the legislation to their likeing. Once the nose is under the tent, You're toast!





The basic unfettered fact is you are either against the take over of our profession by the government through state licensing, or your not. This means that there is no fall back position, no condition whereby it would make sense to alter a stated plan of action and absolutely no discussion of compromise which equals capitulation & defeat. If it were any simpler you could spell it out with children's blocks... No Licensing.

[David Nice]

The enforcement comes when the inspector screws-up! The folks like myself are hired to see if they did follow the standards, rules, etc. This is when enforcement happens!


Hey Scott,

Doesn't this statement belong in that other thread on "Superiority"? ;)

[David Nice]

InspectionNews has just found the following information that might be of interest to you:


American Society of Home Inspectors (ASHI) ethics assures quality ... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/1-0&fd=R&url=http://newsroom.eworldwire.com/view_release.php%3Fid%3D18582&cid=0&ei=hZBESOuLDYLq_AHzroHHBA&usg=AFrqEze-mutr_G1OEh8TGpr5EOn-N0sQug)
Eworldwire (press release), NJ - 3 hours ago
Home inspection clients who hire ASHI members may now be assured that ASHI home inspectors have committed to a set of ethical obligations in their business ...


I was under the impression that ASHI already had a code of ethics that members were supposed to be commited to following. Does this News Flash of a Press Release mean that people who used an ASHI inspector in the past had no assurances that the inspector was "committed to a set of ethical obligations in their business operations"?

We'll I'll be... after all these years of ASHI placing themselves at the top of the heap, do they finally decide to get ethical... or is it just more of the failed branding efforts of the past, in a new wrapper?

Ho Hum, must have been a very slow news day... http://smilieland.com/graphics/snore.gif

[Scott Patterson]

I was under the impression that ASHI already had a code of ethics that members were supposed to be commited to following. Does this News Flash of a Press Release mean that people who used an ASHI inspector in the past had no assurances that the inspector was "committed to a set of ethical obligations in their business operations"?

We'll I'll be... after all these years of ASHI placing themselves at the top of the heap, do they finally decide to get ethical... or is it just more of the failed branding efforts of the past, in a new wrapper?

Ho Hum, must have been a very slow news day... http://smilieland.com/graphics/snore.gif


David, can you not read and comprehend?

One more time for those of you who are rather slow to understand!

What was posted is not the ASHI Code of Ethics, that document is part of the ASHI Standards of Practice. It was a new document that was created and called the Client Bill of Rights.

David, I'm sure you are aware that the ASHI Ethics and the ASHI Standards were made into one document a couple of years ago as you say that you follow the ASHI Standards on your website
My standards are among the highest in the industry and meet or exceed every standard set by the State of Wisconsin, the National Association of Certified Home Inspectors (NACHI®), and the American Society of Home Inspectors (ASHI®). So if you are following the ASHI Standards you should also be following the ASHI Ethics as well, otherwise you are not following the ASHI Standards for Practice. What I don't understand is why you state that you are following the ASHI Standards when you don't belong to ASHI?

[Kevin Luce]

What I don't understand is why you state that you are following the ASHI Standards when you don't belong to ASHI?

I never understood that question. Why can't somebody follow ASHI standards but not belong?

When somebody states that they meet or exceed standards and they don't for whatever reason, that is a different story.

When people call up asking why I don't belong to this organization or that organization, I tell them my reason and move on. Have I lost a few jobs from it, I think so, but life goes on.

[Dan Harris]

I never understood that question. Why can't somebody follow ASHI standards but not belong?

When somebody states that they meet or exceed standards and they don't for whatever reason, that is a different story.

When people call up asking why I don't belong to this organization or that organization, I tell them my reason and move on. Have I lost a few jobs from it, I think so, but life goes on.

If nickos club members claim to be superior over all other inspectors, and inspector orgs, why would they not claim their SOP's are superior over other HI orgs.??

Why doesn't pepsi say they use cokes recipe in their advertizing??

[Steven Meyer]

If nickos club members claim to be superior over all other inspectors, and inspector orgs, why would they not claim their SOP's are superior over other HI orgs.??

Why doesn't pepsi say they use cokes recipe in their advertizing??

DAN

Coke tried to copy pepsi with their "new coke". Coke customers hated it, didn't buy it, coke went back to the the old coke.

So, is the new ASHI ethics a copy, superior? Or will they go back to the old, courting the agents? Think ASHI members will like the old taste better.

Superior to other inspectors? No, wouldn't want to take that from you.

[Kevin Luce]

If nickos club members claim to be superior over all other inspectors, and inspector orgs, why would they not claim their SOP's are superior over other HI orgs.??

Why doesn't pepsi say they use cokes recipe in their advertizing??

I think the comment you made is mis directing. He is not saying the InterNACHI is better then ASHI. He is saying that his standards meet or exceed the State of Wisconsin, InterNACHI and ASHI. Unlike Pepsi saying they use Cokes recipe (which can clearly set them up for legal problems), anyone can say the use Wisconsin, ASHI, InterNACHI standards.

Again, if somebody doesn't like the standards, don't use them which and in turn they should not advertise it.

So called "nickos club members" are also a % of ASHI members. So when you're saying something negitive toward the members of InterNACHI, I feel you are also saying negitive things towards that % of ASHI members since those inspectors are also supporting InterNACHI ($ at least).

[Dan Harris]

I think the comment you made is off subject. He is not saying the InterNACHI is better then ASHI. He is saying that his standards meet or exceed the State of Wisconsin, InterNACHI and ASHI. Unlike Pepsi saying they use Cokes recipe (which can clearly set them up for legal problems), anyone can say the use Wisconsin, ASHI, InterNACHI standards.

IF ONE STATES THEY MEET OR EXCEED AN HI ORGS STANDARDES AND DO NOT, THEY ARE ALSO SETTING THEM SELVES UP FOR LEGAL PROBLEMS.

Again, if somebody doesn't like the standards, don't use them which and in turn they should not advertise it.
AGREED.


So called "nickos club members" are also a % of ASHI members. So when you're saying something negitive toward the members of InterNACHI, I feel you are also saying negitive things towards that % of ASHI members since those inspectors are also supporting InterNACHI.

YEP. TO ME ITS NO DIFFERENT THAN SAYING THEY SUPPORT OBAMMA, AND MCCAIN.

[Steven Meyer]

Client "bill of rights"?
Then you admit that clients had no rights if the past???
Little late to the party, arn't you?

Some states "quote" ASHI SOP, therefore saying you follow those are just complying with that, the use of that is just marketing, using the state to promote ASHI.

Can't teach an old dog new tricks. Just how many ASHI agent lap dogs will jump of their laps?

Ethics are just common sense, ASHI must just have discovered there was a lack of that among their members???



David, can you not read and comprehend?

One more time for those of you who are rather slow to understand!

What was posted is not the ASHI Code of Ethics, that document is part of the ASHI Standards of Practice. It was a new document that was created and called the Client Bill of Rights.

David, I'm sure you are aware that the ASHI Ethics and the ASHI Standards were made into one document a couple of years ago as you say that you follow the ASHI Standards on your website So if you are following the ASHI Standards you should also be following the ASHI Ethics as well, otherwise you are not following the ASHI Standards for Practice. What I don't understand is why you state that you are following the ASHI Standards when you don't belong to ASHI?

[Dan Harris]

DAN

Coke tried to copy pepsi with their "new coke". Coke customers hated it, didn't buy it, coke went back to the the old coke.

So, is the new ASHI ethics a copy, superior? Or will they go back to the old, courting the agents? Think ASHI members will like the old taste better.

Superior to other inspectors? No, wouldn't want to take that from you.

Keep an a believing everything Harvey Hemplstein tells you, and all will be well. :)

[Deleted Account]

What I don't understand is why you state that you are following the ASHI Standards when you don't belong to ASHI?


When licensing comes to a state none of the association fancy-talk matters anymore, the state becomes the arbiter of standards and holds all authority, Association SoP's & CoE's be dammed.

[Raymond Wand]

Why bother quoting any SOP? Why not just say you inspect to industry standards?

I find the comments about ASHI marketing the real estate industry peculiar. All associations that I belong to promote their services and standards to the real estate industry and other related professions, either by advertising in trade publications, sponsor, conferences/seminars.

Cheers,

[Steven Meyer]

DAnny child

Unlike YOU, I CAN and do think for myself.

You, unfortunately, need the government or an association to do the thinking for you.

Kinda pathetic!

Was it the drugs or the southwest sun that fried your brain?????
Keep following them sheep, Dan!

It's the only option you have.



Keep an a believing everything Harvey Hemplstein tells you, and all will be well. :)

[David Nice]

What was posted is not the ASHI Code of Ethics, that document is part of the ASHI Standards of Practice. It was a new document that was created and called the Client Bill of Rights.

Clever PR work though I doubt anyone is listening. Since this is now a new document, has it been established as part of the ASHI Standards and COE? If not, it could present a serious PR problem if all ASHI members are not required to abide by them.



David, I'm sure you are aware that the ASHI Ethics and the ASHI Standards were made into one document a couple of years ago as you say that you follow the ASHI Standards on your website So if you are following the ASHI Standards you should also be following the ASHI Ethics as well, otherwise you are not following the ASHI Standards for Practice. What I don't understand is why you state that you are following the ASHI Standards when you don't belong to ASHI?

Wisconsin licenses it's home inspectors and your little exam is required here. Cross referencing the State SOP, InterNACHI SOP and ASHI SOP, it is the ASHI Standards that appear to be the lesser of the three (though they have been improving, somewhat). Rarely do clients even ask or look for an inspectors affiliations in WI.

I prefer not to spend the money for an ASHI membership when InterNACHI still is the benefits leader by a long, long distance. There is nothing that suggests that I can not exeed all the SOP's and certainly nothing that says that I have to join and pay dues to exeed the ASHI SOP and say so! (as long as I give credit and honor trademarks).

We'll see what happens when my new website is ready to launch.

[Scott Patterson]

We'll see what happens when my new website is ready to launch.

Hope you do well in this profession, you are a person of skills and knowledge that should be be idolized.

Best,

Scott

[Billy Stephens]

Hope you do well in this profession, you are a person of skills and knowledge that should be be idolized.

Best,

Scott

And He's Handsome (in a Truck Driver's Kind of way) as Well. :rolleyes:

[Dan Harris]

DAnny child

Unlike YOU, I CAN and do think for myself.

You, unfortunately, need the government or an association to do the thinking for you.

Kinda pathetic!

Was it the drugs or the southwest sun that fried your brain?????
Keep following them sheep, Dan!

It's the only option you have.






Just to set the record straight.
You have never seen me state that I was in, or was not in favor of lic. The only position I've stated was, a properly regulated, and enforced law does help the consumer by requiring an inspector to meet min standards.

2nd thing, Your BS about my org telling me or other members what to do or how to think is just that, BS.
Truth is, home inspectors do not decide if there is going to be a law or not.

Fact is you have never seen an ASHI member contact the ASHI pres or HQ, and ask what they should do in their state, nor have you seen any ASHI member request help from ASHI HQ to defeat a bill, or ask ASHI for help because Lic will put them out of business.

Once a state, or a non inspector group decides there should be a HI law, many members of my org including myself, along with other non org inspectors get involved. That involvement has nothing to do with ASHI.


All you have to do is a little research to see the states that have a bad law
[ instead of believing crap by inspectors ruled by a dictator] are states where the inspectors failed to get together and agree on anything, or decided to fight regulation, are the ones having outside parties non home inspectors, deciding how and what they report on, how much ins they will have, and how they will do business in general.

Before stating more unsubstaniated crap about me, and the HI org that I chose to belong to, I suggest you do a little more research, instead of following / believing lost sheep with fried brains from instantly certified kool aid,
and I'll enjoy the sun that helps my brain think for myself. :)

[Deleted Account]

Dan, what's up brother, did someone kick your dog? Take a deep breath and smile seeing as how you are still on this side of the abyss. :)

[Dan Harris]

Dan, what's up brother, did someone kick your dog? Take a deep breath and smile seeing as how you are still on this side of the abyss. :)

I'm a smiling bro, :) and shaking my head at the same time.
I swear there are some trying to enter this business, if some one told them, polly wants a cracker a few times, they would start repeating that with out having a clue what it meant.

[Joseph P. Hagarty]

An Association, in and of itself, lacks the capability to actively verify compliance with any ethical standard.

The alleged published Standard has the appearance of verifiable accountability but is only Verifiable / Deficient after the fact if and when a claim is made.

[Nick Ostrowski]

An Association, in and of itself, lacks the capability to actively verify compliance with any ethical standard.

The alleged published Standard has the appearance of verifiable accountability but is only Verifiable / Deficient after the fact if and when a claim is made.

Good point Joe. There is no way an association can ensure membership compliance. Requiring members to submit 5 reports for review is better than nothing but at the end of the day, abiding by any association's standards and code of ethics is up to each individual inspector. Much like the home inspector law in PA and Philadelphia. Nobody checks up on inspectors around here to ensure compliance and there's nothing to prevent anybody from handing out a falsified compliance statement.

These statements look good on paper but without direct supervision to ensure compliance, it is up to each of us to hold ourselves accountable.

I. To be assured the inspector is objective in his or her reporting and will not knowingly understate or overstate the significance of reported conditions.

Who is to make this type of determination? If our reports are to be based on honest conviction, who is to say an inspector is wrong if his/her recommendations for repair vary from other inspectors in regard to something like knob & tube wiring or a roof showing wear and age?

[Ted Menelly]

I have been watching this thread and re-reading my own posts as well.

I truly came to this site because I new I was getting a little out of touch with the rest of the inspection world and truly wanted to see the replies to threads on any topic and see how folks answer and or deal with inspection issues, association issues and or licensing issues as well. I guess when it comes down to it the inspector groups, individuals, associations all have there own opinions at about anything.

This thread intrigues me to know end because I am always asked "what is a home inspection"? The answer I give is getting a little foggier all the time reading these posts.

If it is quite literally every man for himself, "what is a home inspection " Granted, most SOP"s or ethics from associations and state licensing are all pretty much the same. In saying that I am getting even further away from the questions being asked me all the time. What is a home inspection? What can a client hold an inspector accountable for? Can a client hold an inspector accountable for anything?

If you hold yourself accountable, what are you holding yourself accountable to? What guidelines shall you follow? What is the absolute minimum a home inspection is? Where does a home inspection stop? Do we all become ICC certified and every client that ever has an inspection that ever finds anything in his home not up to the code of the day have the right to sue you? Do we all buy IR cameras and then inspect every single square inch of wall, ceiling and floor in every home we inspect and then be held liable for any slight hic up or false reading?

Please, especially you Joe, don't beat me up on this one. With out a serious set of rules and regulations that all home inspectors must follow, period, for a minimum and or maximum extent of what a home inspection is or is not, who can tell anyone what a home inspection is and how could anyone hold you accountable for anything.

They are all just questions.

Just looking for serious opinions.

Ted

[Ted Menelly]

Jerry Peck

just using you as an example after going to your website. I hope you don't mind. By the way, holy s__t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great respect Jerry.

Do we all need the amount of certifications that Jerry Peck has just to go out and give home buyers a general overview of there home to "reduce their risk" in the home buying process?????????????????????????

Ted

[Deleted Account]

Do we all need the amount of certifications that Jerry Peck has just to go out and give home buyers a general overview of there home to "reduce their risk" in the home buying process?????????????????????????



At one time that was the specs that Jerry presented to the state for licensing requirements, yep, had the state adopted his recommendations Jerry would have been the only state licensed inspector in Florida, they are still chuckling down at the DBPR. :)

Ted, the thing you gotta understand about licensing is that it has never been about standardizing the profession to a minimum competency to secure reasonable consumer protection.... If that were the impetus it would have been orchestrated by public consumer protection groups.

No, all of the legislation thus far has come from the home inspection profession instituted and promoted by home inspectors in a vain attempt to protect their market, bolster their association and expand the territory where their exam is utilized for licensing.

[Ted Menelly]

In all that hot air and babbling in my overly large post, what I was trying to say is, in Texas we are state licensed already. In Florida, where you are about to have licensing required it just sounds like you folks should be trying to protect yourselves with particulars. Yes it should be about standardising and competency, apprenticeship and yes protecting your market. If you and every living breathing inspector in Florida do not go that route it is only going to bite you in the a_s sooner or later. The changes that are going to be in the new front page of our report are to protect the client and yes a lot about protecting the inspector from clients stray thoughts in what an inspection is and isn't. I actually read it as mostly protecting the inspector.

And you have got to be kidding me about Jerry and specs that Jerry presented to the state for licensing requirements.

Jerry, tell me it ain't true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you really think that little about us lowly, fairly well edumicated and experienced home inspectors.

Thanks Joe

Ted

[David Nice]

...all of the legislation thus far has come from the home inspection profession instituted and promoted by home inspectors in a vain attempt to protect their market, bolster their association and expand the territory where their exam is utilized for licensing.

Joe,

Don't forget the states where the Real Estate "professionals" pushed for licensing of inspectors in an effort to dump all the liability on the inspectors and control what they can and cannot do.

[Bill Loden]

Gentlemen,
I'm a little late on responding to this topic but I just joined the Inspection News forum and found this thread. I'm commenting because I'm the person who wrote the ASHI Client Bill of Rights so maybe I can shed a little light on what it is and why ASHI adopted it.

Development of personal and professional ethics is an ongoing process. As we mature, learn and grow physically, mentally and spiritually we evolve. Most of us can say that we are not the same person we were 20 years ago. I know that physically I am much different (not for the better) and hopefully I have grown (for the better) mentally and spirtually.

Most HI associations have Codes of Ethics and there is evolution in those as well. I don't know much about the other associations but I have extensively studied the ASHI CoE which was originally adopted in 1976 and was revised in 2005 by a vote of the membership.

Inspectors should be familar with the codes of their respective associations. When I was reviewing the ASHI CoE however it occured to me that this code was written as a set of guidelines for inspectors and that clients might read them and not understand how they were of benefit to them.

In researching the web I found that associations in other professions had developed Client Bill of Rights aimed at their clients, attempt to provide the client with an understanding of how the Ethics and Standards of the professional translate to benefit them. With that in mind I extrated element of both the ASHI Code of Ethics and Standards of Practice and placed them in the ASHI Client Bill of Rights. So these are not knew rules, just a look at some of our values in a new way.

Hopefully the publication and distribution of the ASHI Client Bill of Rights creates an opportunity for all of us to give a little thought to where we are and where we are going on our individual ethics journey.

I know that many feel that a code of ethics should be used as a club to beat their competitors over the head. We all know that we are ethical, it is always the other guy who has the problem. Really though our ethics are more of a personal issue that guide us in our daily activities and day to day on a personal and professional level we are the only one who will know when a situation creates a conflict and we are the only one who will know if we passed the test.

I hope this helps clarify this for everyone. You can also go to the ASHI website and look at the article in the June issue of the ASHI reporter for and article on the subject.

Bill Loden