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wayne soper
07-27-2008, 11:03 AM
Garage entry door to home. Is there a code that states it should open in. I can't find one. I know it should, in my opinion nayway.

Jim Luttrall
07-27-2008, 11:13 AM
Nope, not that I am aware of.

Why do you think it should open in? (into the house or into the garage?)

Since it cannot be an egress door, I can't see that it would make much difference except for being blocked by cars and junk.

wayne soper
07-27-2008, 01:40 PM
Same as a front door. To allow emergency access by bashing it in. Firecode

Jerry McCarthy
07-27-2008, 02:14 PM
Agree with Jim, and besides most doors swinging out would probably be swinging over a step?

Jerry Peck
07-27-2008, 05:14 PM
Same as a front door. To allow emergency access by bashing it in. Firecode

Wayne,

No fire code requiring either.

Doors swinging in the direction of egress does not apply to dwelling units.

Also, as Jim said in his post, you are not allowed to have a required egress through a garage, thus, any door leading to a garage cannot be considered an egress door.

The egress door is required to lead outdoors or to a common corridor (such as condos) which has a specified fire rating. A garage is simply an different occupancy, one not suitable for use as a means of egress.

Jerry Peck
07-27-2008, 05:20 PM
besides most doors swinging out would probably be swinging over a step?

WC Jerry,

Most garage doors I've seen which swing into the garage swing over a raised floor level, typically 3' deep or greater. They use that raised floor area to install the mechanical equipment and water heater on.

Other than that, I also agree with Jim and you.

wayne soper
07-27-2008, 06:18 PM
Thanks guys. I guess that just about covers it.

Jerry McCarthy
07-28-2008, 08:17 AM
As an aside to the point of this thread do you think this house to garage door is code complying in regards to the steps?

Dave Snare
07-28-2008, 09:33 AM
Wayne,
I see this as a potential security issue. If a "bad guy" gets into the garage, he has an opportunity to gain access into the home by popping out the hinge pins, wiggeling the door out of the frame (depending on the type of locking device used) and he's in - no loud noise, no mess.

Jerry McCarthy
07-28-2008, 10:57 AM
Brandon
The space under the door is huge, but that's not the point of my post. Are those steps code complying? (hint - think landing, needed or not?)

Brandon Whitmore
07-28-2008, 11:22 AM
Geez Jerry,

You are fast. I posted that comment and erased it within seconds because I wanted to check the 2006 IRC first.

There are more than 2 risers, so a landing would be required on the garage side if it were a new construction home (concrete looks old)
I was ignoring the lack of a threshold, weatherstripping, etc. which is an obvious defect.

I get so many years worth of codes stuck in my head I often forget which requirement is the most recent. It gets confusing trying to keep track of it all. Life would be much simpler (sometimes safer, sometimes not) if codes were never changed:D

Jerry Peck
07-28-2008, 02:50 PM
This ...

From the 2006 IRC.

- R311.4.3 Landings at doors. There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).
(There are 3 Exceptions listed.)


... does not apply.


Why?


"There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door."m and that *is not* an "exterior door". Which is why it cannot be used as a means of egress, as discussed above. ;)


So what does apply, then?


From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)
- R311.5.4 Landings for stairways.There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway.
- - Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.
- - A flight of stairs shall not have a vertical rise larger than 12 feet (3658 mm) between floor levels or landings.
- - The width of each landing shall not be less than the width of the stairway served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.

Okay, now, are the stairs in WC Jerry's photo code compliant (disregard the incomplete-under-construction aspect of the missing threshold, weather stripping, and any other obvious install-after-all-paint-touch-up-is-done items)?

Mike Schulz
07-28-2008, 03:58 PM
I see this as a potential security issue. If a "bad guy" gets into the garage, he has an opportunity to gain access into the home by popping out the hinge pins, wiggeling the door out of the frame (depending on the type of locking device used) and he's in - no loud noise, no mess.

The doors that swing outside have the hinges outside but they are tamper proof. You can't knock the pins out. They install these types of doors here all the time.

If they are going to go through the problem of removing the door why not just knock out a window and unlock one. I can see this on TV now. There is a show that has stupid thieves.

Brandon Whitmore
07-28-2008, 04:06 PM
Aha,

Thanks E. coast Jerry, I knew I was forgetting something-- I'll bet you I've read what you posted a hundred times, maybe it will stick after the next 100.

Jerry McCarthy
07-28-2008, 04:43 PM
EC Jerry has posted the appropriate code and within that code is the clue I'm looking for you guys to find.
Now how about answering my/our question? Is that door from the house to into attached garage code compliant?
(prize for the right answer)

christopher bittner
07-28-2008, 06:23 PM
it's hard for me to disern whether the door opening is from a garage. it seems that there is water at the bottom of the picture so i'm of the opinion that the steps to the door are code compliant since the door opens inward to floor level (a continuous surface and not double steps). as long as the person opening the door is able to safely open the door, i don't see a problem

Joe Klampfer
07-29-2008, 07:58 AM
EC Jerry has posted the appropriate code and within that code is the clue I'm looking for you guys to find.
Now how about answering my/our question? Is that door from the house to into attached garage code compliant?
(prize for the right answer)

the answer is yes it is code compliant, as pointed out in Jerry's code reference.

Jerry McCarthy
07-29-2008, 08:01 AM
Christopher
Let me confirm it is a house to garage door opening and can you explain the basis on how you interpret the 2006 IRC building code confirms it’s compliant?

christopher bittner
07-29-2008, 06:58 PM
thanks guys for responding. Jerry, I am not refering to any code. I am new in this field and am doing an exersize on what I "see" and what I remember from 25yrs. ago as a genral contractor. As I stated before, a platform is not required if the door at the top of the steps opens inward and as I see it the garage floor should be "construed" as a "landing or floor level". Maybe I'm way of base. let me know. I wan't to learn all that I can and being 54 and wanting to learn more feels pretty good. the other considerations I had after Posted were 1) is there any Carbon Monoxide concerns here? You said attached. I'm wondering about the space from where the stairs lead. 2) The Rise of the steps in relation to the Run
was uniform and pretty level from what could see. Where I'm at now is looking for trip hazards. I see them
every where (even in my dreams) thanks chris

Jerry McCarthy
07-30-2008, 08:30 AM
One more shot, how many think those steps into the garage are code complying and how many think they're not?

Brandon Whitmore
07-30-2008, 12:20 PM
One more shot, how many think those steps into the garage are code complying and how many think they're not?

Well shoot,

I've been wrong once by applying the improper code, so might as well shoot for number 2.

I perused all of chapter 3 and can't find anything that would make those steps improper.

My vote is for code compliant.

David Banks
07-30-2008, 02:45 PM
They are fine. Just look at Jerry's exception.
- - Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.

Jerry McCarthy
07-30-2008, 04:06 PM
Thanks David, I was beginning to worry when you would step forward? ;)

Roger Shafer
05-06-2012, 10:34 AM
Does anyone know if a passage door that swings into the garage must have a landing 1.5" below the threshold? This door is 4" above the floor.

Jerry Peck
05-06-2012, 03:08 PM
Does anyone know if a passage door that swings into the garage must have a landing 1.5" below the threshold? This door is 4" above the floor.

A door is not allowed to swing over a stair, whether the door swings inward to the interior over a stair or outward to the outdoors over a stair - that 4" difference is a stair, a one-riser stair, but a stair nonetheless (a "stair", by definition, consists of one or more risers):
- STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers.
- STAIRWAY. One or more flights of stairs, either exterior or interior, with the necessary landings and platforms connecting them, to form a continuous and uninterrupted passage from one level to another.

A "stairway" consists of the "stair" and the "landings" which make up a flight of "stairs"; a "stairway" may also consist of more than one flight of stairs as may be necessary to get from one level to another level.

wayne soper
05-06-2012, 07:21 PM
door is not swinging over stair.
Door is not exterior door
Door is OK Steps are OK
Jeez, how long ago did I start this thread.
Then again, they don't look to be 36" wide

Jerry Peck
05-06-2012, 07:37 PM
Does anyone know if a passage door that swings into the garage must have a landing 1.5" below the threshold? This door is 4" above the floor.


door is not swinging over stair.

Yes it is in the post I was responding to.


Door is not exterior door

Interior OR EXTERIOR ... DOES NOT MATTER - a door *is not allowed to open over a stair ... period.


Door is OK

Yes ... the door ... is okay, but the swing of the door is not allowed to be over a stair.


Steps are OK

Yes ... as long as the swing of the door is not over the stair.


Jeez, how long ago did I start this thread.

Jeez, me thinks you need to read what is being replied to. :p

Didn't you even bother to read the quote in my post? :p

Donal Hughes
05-07-2012, 06:10 AM
EC Jerry has posted the appropriate code and within that code is the clue I'm looking for you guys to find.
Now how about answering my/our question? Is that door from the house to into attached garage code compliant?
(prize for the right answer)

Just came accross this thread. If this door connects a habitable space to an attached garage, then IMO it should be 1) fire rated and 2) have a self-closer. These issues are just as important as the stair/step issue.

Jerry Peck
05-07-2012, 05:12 PM
Just came accross this thread. If this door connects a habitable space to an attached garage, then IMO it should be 1) fire rated and 2) have a self-closer. These issues are just as important as the stair/step issue.

"then IMO it should be 1) fire rated and 2) have a self-closer"

However, if you were to say that it was "required" ... you would be incorrect (unless your local or state code included those requirements, but I am not aware of a code which includes those requirements - which does not mean that code does not exist, it only means "show me that code" ;) ).

Donal Hughes
05-07-2012, 05:41 PM
"then IMO it should be 1) fire rated and 2) have a self-closer"

However, if you were to say that it was "required" ... you would be incorrect (unless your local or state code included those requirements, but I am not aware of a code which includes those requirements - which does not mean that code does not exist, it only means "show me that code" ;) ).

This is the code I was referring to, perhaps the closer is not required in all jurisdictions:

"2006 International Building Code
Chapter 4, Special Detailed Requirements Based on the Use and Occupancy
Section 406 Motor Vehicle Related Occupancies
406.1 Private Garages and Carports.

406.1.4 Separation
1. The private garage shall be separated from the dwelling unit and its attic area by means of a minimum ½-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side.

Garages beneath habitable rooms shall be separated from all habitable rooms above by not less than a 5/8-inch Type X gypsum board or equivalent.

Door openings between a private garage and the dwelling unit shall be equipped with either solid wood doors or solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (34.9 mm) thick, or doors in compliance with Section 715.4.3.
Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Doors shall be self-closing and self-latching."

I don't believe the 2006IRC requires the closer.

Jerry Peck
05-07-2012, 05:45 PM
This is the code I was referring to, perhaps the closer is not required in all jurisdictions:

"2006 International Building Code
Chapter 4, Special Detailed Requirements Based on the Use and Occupancy
Section 406 Motor Vehicle Related Occupancies
406.1 Private Garages and Carports.

406.1.4 Separation
1. The private garage shall be separated from the dwelling unit and its attic area by means of a minimum ½-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side.

Garages beneath habitable rooms shall be separated from all habitable rooms above by not less than a 5/8-inch Type X gypsum board or equivalent.

Door openings between a private garage and the dwelling unit shall be equipped with either solid wood doors or solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (34.9 mm) thick, or doors in compliance with Section 715.4.3.
Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Doors shall be self-closing and self-latching."

I don't believe the 2006IRC requires the closer.

That code does not required either: a) a fire rated door, or b) a self-closing door. Read it again.

Then, remember that we are referring to houses (and townhouses), all of which are not under that code, they are under the residential code, but first, read that section again and you will see that neither is "required".

Kristi Silber
05-07-2012, 09:12 PM
A door is not allowed to swing over a stair, whether the door swings inward to the interior over a stair or outward to the outdoors over a stair - that 4" difference is a stair, a one-riser stair, but a stair nonetheless (a "stair", by definition, consists of one or more risers):
- STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers.
- STAIRWAY. One or more flights of stairs, either exterior or interior, with the necessary landings and platforms connecting them, to form a continuous and uninterrupted passage from one level to another.

A "stairway" consists of the "stair" and the "landings" which make up a flight of "stairs"; a "stairway" may also consist of more than one flight of stairs as may be necessary to get from one level to another level.

I agree with Wayne. I don't know how you figure Roger's door is swinging over a stair - it's only over the "stair" when it's closed.

Donal Hughes
05-07-2012, 09:34 PM
That code does not required either: a) a fire rated door, or b) a self-closing door. Read it again.

Then, remember that we are referring to houses (and townhouses), all of which are not under that code, they are under the residential code, but first, read that section again and you will see that neither is "required".

Point taken and thanks for the clarification. Im new to this; must talk to my instructor where I took the course and let him know he's teaching something not in the code!
Must say this is a very useful forum.

wayne soper
05-08-2012, 05:39 PM
Yes it is in the post I was responding to.



Interior OR EXTERIOR ... DOES NOT MATTER - a door *is not allowed to open over a stair ... period.



Yes ... the door ... is okay, but the swing of the door is not allowed to be over a stair.



Yes ... as long as the swing of the door is not over the stair.



Jeez, me thinks you need to read what is being replied to. :p

Didn't you even bother to read the quote in my post? :p

Yeah, you're right jerry, i got lost, thanks to one of you jerrys trying to confuse(teach) haha
As long as i got it right in the report, which i did:eek:
thanks for the slap in the face:D

Jerry Peck
05-08-2012, 06:21 PM
I agree with Wayne. I don't know how you figure Roger's door is swinging over a stair - it's only over the "stair" when it's closed.

The "stair" is the "riser" ... how can the door be "over" the "riser" when the door is closed? Besides, *I* said "swing" "over the stair", how can a door "swing" when it is closed?

The door "swing" is between fully closed and fully open, and that "swing" is not allowed to be over the "stair" - the "riser" is the "stair" - not sure what is difficult to understand about that.

Kristi Silber
05-08-2012, 07:12 PM
Maybe we're picturing this differently. As I picture it, the threshold is 4" above the floor of the garage, with nothing below. So when you step over the threshold into the garage, you step down 4". Roger is wondering if there should be a landing, so you don't step 4" down.

So, when the door is shut, it's very nearly over the riser. Open it, and it's over the floor.

Makes sense to me.

What's up with all the quotation marks? Doors swing. Stairs have risers. Perfectly common words.

*I* never *said* is was "swinging" when it was "closed." Maybe *you* should "read" more *carefully.* (Do you see how distracting those little marks can be? And how condescending that last bit can sound?)

....EDIT And now I'm wondering if a door in a wall with a threshold 4" above the floor actually does have a riser as such. There is no riser in the framing sense. The code definitions are circular: a stair has a riser, and a riser is a component of a stair. Unhelpful.

Jerry Peck
05-08-2012, 09:15 PM
Maybe we're picturing this differently. As I picture it, the threshold is 4" above the floor of the garage, with nothing below. So when you step over the threshold into the garage, you step down 4". Roger is wondering if there should be a landing, so you don't step 4" down.

"so you don't step 4" down"

Exactly - so you don't open the door and the floor is 4" down below where the door swings.

Jerry Peck
05-09-2012, 07:40 PM
Kristi,

Photos and drawings are frequently worth a thousand words ... or so it is said ... did my drawing help save a thousand follow up words? ;)

H.G. Watson, Sr.
05-09-2012, 09:40 PM
Stair: A change in elevation consisting of one or more risers.STAIRWAY. One or more flights of stairs, either interior or exterior, with the necessary landings and platforms connecting them to form a continuous and uninterrupted passage from one level to another within or attached to a building, porch or deck. A personel door for a garage is an exit path FROM the garage (person in garage needs to get OUT of GARAGE in the event of smoke or fire in the garage), it is (never/) NOT an exit TO the garage. A means of egress/exit pathway may not be VIA a garage.

Kristi Silber
05-09-2012, 10:06 PM
Jerry, your drawing is very clear, you did a lovely job!:) And it's just how I pictured it. But doesn't that contradict what you were saying earlier?

"how can the door be "over" the "riser" when the door is closed? It is that way in your drawing! Besides, *I* said "swing" "over the stair", how can a door "swing" when it is closed?

The door "swing" is between fully closed and fully open, and that "swing" is not allowed to be over the "stair" - the "riser" is the "stair"
Right, and it's not!
- not sure what is difficult to understand about that."

And there's no necessity for the landing.

Jerry Peck
05-10-2012, 06:00 PM
Jerry, your drawing is very clear, you did a lovely job!:) And it's just how I pictured it. But doesn't that contradict what you were saying earlier?

"how can the door be "over" the "riser" when the door is closed? It is that way in your drawing!

au contrarire ... the door is over the level above when closed. The "riser" is strictly the vertical "rise" between levels, the 'riser' could be closed as shown, or it could be open as some stairs have open risers.


[I] Besides, *I* said "swing" "over the stair", how can a door "swing" when it is closed?

A does not "swing" when it is closed, the door "swing" is from being open to being closed - the door swing is anyplace between fully open and fully closed. And that swing is not allowed to be out over a riser.


And there's no necessity for the landing.

If it is installed as I drew it, then a landing *IS* *required* to be under where I drew the door in the open position. Essentially, the "riser" would need to be moved out past the end of the door in the open position, providing 'at least' a 36" landing if the door is a 36" door or less. If the door is wider, or projects outward more than 36" when fully open, then the landing needs to be 'at least' the outermost edge of the door.

Kristi Silber
05-10-2012, 09:44 PM
au contrarire ... the door is over the level above when closed. The "riser" is strictly the vertical "rise" between levels, the 'riser' could be closed as shown, or it could be open as some stairs have open risers. No - a stairway with no risers has no risers, period. A riser is a component of a stair. You are equating "rise" with "riser" and that's wrong. Your drawing shows the garage side of the door flush with the wall, which in this case is acting as the riser (though I don't consider it actually a riser)...the door when shut is over the "riser."



A does not "swing" when it is closed, the door "swing" is from being open to being closed - the door swing is anyplace between fully open and fully closed. And that swing is not allowed to be out over a riser.
And as you show it, the moment the door swings, it leaves the step - or part does, anyway. I suppose it could be argued that it's only actually beyond the step when it's perpendicular to the wall.




If it is installed as I drew it, then a landing *IS* *required* to be under where I drew the door in the open position. Essentially, the "riser" would need to be moved out past the end of the door in the open position, providing 'at least' a 36" landing if the door is a 36" door or less. If the door is wider, or projects outward more than 36" when fully open, then the landing needs to be 'at least' the outermost edge of the door.

I understand the code, but this argument has reached the point of silliness, I think. We'll have to simply disagree.

Gary Bottomley
05-11-2012, 04:45 AM
Garage entry door to home. Is there a code that states it should open in. I can't find one. I know it should, in my opinion nayway.
Wow! it has been a long time since this started so lets throw another aspect into the equation:
From a fire perspective, the goal is to protect the dwelling from a fire in the garage. So, if the fire is in the garage, would the door swinging towards the fire, have a better seal from smoke traveling into the dwelling with the stops on the dwelling side?

Door Guy
05-11-2012, 06:36 AM
Wow! it has been a long time since this started so lets throw another aspect into the equation:
From a fire perspective, the goal is to protect the dwelling from a fire in the garage. So, if the fire is in the garage, would the door swinging towards the fire, have a better seal from smoke traveling into the dwelling with the stops on the dwelling side?

Nope, a 20 minute rated door is a 20 minute rated door from both sides, not one.

Door Guy
05-11-2012, 06:39 AM
As an aside to the point of this thread do you think this house to garage door is code complying in regards to the steps?

Missing handrail, 3 or more risers. BTW what is the depth on the treads?

james hiatt
05-11-2012, 08:16 AM
I hate to extend this subject, but my last new house garage door had windows and no closer. Have codes changed to SOLID -SOLID door now? tks

Kristi Silber
05-11-2012, 10:42 AM
Missing handrail, 3 or more risers. BTW what is the depth on the treads?

A handrail is needed for 4 or more risers, no?

I'd like to withdraw my objection to the phrase "open riser." My apologies, JP.:)

Door Guy
05-11-2012, 02:29 PM
A handrail is needed for 4 or more risers, no?

I'd like to withdraw my objection to the phrase "open riser." My apologies, JP.:)

Oops... Yep 4 or more...

Jerry Peck
05-11-2012, 05:24 PM
I understand the code, but this argument has reached the point of silliness, I think. We'll have to simply disagree.

Here is one last attempt to convey the problem - see the revised drawing.

Whenever a door swings out over a stair, even a single-riser stair as is at that exterior door, when going through a door which swings away from them, a person expects to step through that and have their foot land at the same level as where the other foot is at. When the floor surface is not there and the foot continues downward, a person feels as though something is not right, that they should already have landed the foot on solid ground, not continue ‘falling’ through the air. By the time the foot actually lands on the solid ground, the brain may be trying to help the body ‘catch its balance’ when, in fact, the body is really is not falling through the air – the reflexes which are generated from that may then result in a fall trying to ‘catch oneself’ when there is no ‘catching’ to be done.

That feeling and the reflexes happen frequently with no ill results – you don’t fall, you just feel like you looked foolish jerking around to catch yourself for no reason. Sometimes, though, you do fall.

If you’ve ever walked up or down a stairway which has one or more steps which are not the same height as the rest of the steps, then you probably understand the feeling of the next step not being where you thought it would be, your foot lands on the next step either too soon (the riser is shorter than the others) or too late (the riser is taller than the others).

It does create a hazard and that is why the code requires riser heights to be within 3/8” of each other in a stairway, and why the code requires a landing on each side of a door (with some exceptions if the door does not swing over the stair, i.e., the door swings over the higher floor). If the door in the drawing had its swing such that the door swung in over the upper floor/landing, then you would simply be opening a door and going down a stair.

Jerry Peck
05-11-2012, 05:27 PM
I hate to extend this subject, but my last new house garage door had windows and no closer. Have codes changed to SOLID -SOLID door now? tks

What change? It has always required a "SOLID -SOLID door". No window allowed, no pet door allowed, no openings allowed.

Door Guy
05-11-2012, 06:21 PM
What change? It has always required a "SOLID -SOLID door". No window allowed, no pet door allowed, no openings allowed.

What about fire rated glass?

Kristi Silber
05-11-2012, 06:26 PM
Jerry, I don't see how opening the door into the house and stepping down once to the garage floor is different from opening the door into the garage and stepping down. Either way you have to anticipate the step. I still don't see how the door is opening over stairs.

I know all about inconsisent riser height, it's one of the things I look for. Stairs are big sources of insurance hazards.

R311.7.6 "Landings for stairways.
There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The minimum width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be no less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided the depth at the walk line and the total area is not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to the required landing width. Where the stairway has a straight run, the minimum depth in the direction of travel shall be not less than 36 inches (914 mm).

Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs. "

There are no stairs for it to swing over! There's no stairway to put a landing at the top of! Or what part of the code are you referring to?

Jerry Peck
05-11-2012, 07:05 PM
What about fire rated glass?

You would only find that in a fire-rated door, and a fire-rated door has not been what the discussion is about.

However, if the door we were discussing was a fire-rated door, then you could have fire-rated glass in it *as long as the glass met the required size limitations* ... but that would be a no-brainer when discussing a fire-rated door.

Jerry Peck
05-11-2012, 07:07 PM
There are no stairs for it to swing over! There's no stairway to put a landing at the top of! Or what part of the code are you referring to?

Kristi,

You don't see the stair in my drawing?

So you understand what a "stair" is?

Please describe what you think a "stair" is: _______________________

Kristi Silber
05-12-2012, 11:15 AM
My point is that as you picture it, the door doesn't swing over stairs (note the code uses the plural), it swings over the garage floor. If it were as shown in my drawing (not so nice as yours, I'm afraid), I wouldn't have a problem with saying it needed a landing. As I see it, part of the reason for a landing is so you don't have to back down multiple stairs in order to open the door (from the garage side, in this case). Your argument that people will step into space blindly, not seeing there's a drop, is unlikely, IMO. Usually there's a threshold under a door to the garage, and it's more probable that anyone unfamiliar with the garage is going to glance down anyway to see how high they have to step over the threshold. Or they'll notice the rest of the garage floor and note that it's lower, or they'll think, Boy, that minivan has gotten 6" more mini - what's going on here?...and they'll look down and see there's a step.

Jerry Peck
05-12-2012, 04:02 PM
My point is that as you picture it, the door doesn't swing over stairs (note the code uses the plural),

The plural "s" does not make any difference:

- R201.2 Interchangeability. Words used in the present tense include the future; words in the masculine gender include the feminine and neuter; the singular number includes the plural and the plural, the singular.

First, review the definition of a "stair" (*one* or more risers), then look at the use of the plural "stairways", i.e., each and every "stairway" (also refer to the definition of "stairway").

A "stair" is one or more risers.

A "stairway" is the entire flight of "stairs", and includes one or more flights of stairs with the necessary landings which connect everything together to form a continuous passage from one level to another level.

A "stair" could be 12 risers from landing to landing and that becomes a "flight of stairs", add a second "flight of stairs" such that the first flight starts at one level, there is an intermediate landing, then a second "flight of stairs", and you end at the next level. That entire assembly of components is a "stairway", and if you have a "stairway" at one end of a hall and another "stairway" at the other end of that hall, you then have two "stairwayS".


it swings over the garage floor.

Not until it swings out over the riser, and one riser is a "stair", thus the door swings out over the "stair".


If it were as shown in my drawing (not so nice as yours, I'm afraid), I wouldn't have a problem with saying it needed a landing. As I see it, part of the reason for a landing is so you don't have to back down multiple stairs in order to open the door (from the garage side, in this case).

Your reason is incorrect, the code does not care whether there is *one* stair there or if there is a flight of stair there.

I know that you are smart from your posts, so therefore it is I who must not be doing well at describing what is required and why, otherwise you would have already "gotten it". My apologies for having failed you in my efforts to explain what the code is saying - maybe someone else will step in with different words which will allow you to see and understand what is being said in the code.

Kristi Silber
05-12-2012, 08:34 PM
As we both know, there are parts of the code that people interpret differently, for whatever reason. Maybe this is one of those parts. I'd be very interested to hear how others interpret it.


It doesn't matter if it's plural, to me there is no stair it swings over, it swings over floor. When closed, it's on the edge of a stair. You're right that I don't understand what you're thinking.

True, I shouldn't have said the reason is because you'd have to back down multiple stairs - even one is a hazard, more so than stepping forward and down one stair into the garage. How many people are going to open an unfamiliar door and not notice that the next room is at an entirely different level? (Probably the same people who would trip over a the stair to a landing!:D) A far different situation from inconsistent riser height.

Door Guy
05-12-2012, 08:46 PM
As we both know, there are parts of the code that people interpret differently, for whatever reason. Maybe this is one of those parts. I'd be very interested to hear how others interpret it.


It doesn't matter if it's plural, to me there is no stair it swings over, it swings over floor. When closed, it's on the edge of a stair. You're right that I don't understand what you're thinking.

True, I shouldn't have said the reason is because you'd have to back down multiple stairs - even one is a hazard, more so than stepping forward and down one stair into the garage. How many people are going to open an unfamiliar door and not notice that the next room is at an entirely different level? (Probably the same people who would trip over a the stair to a landing!:D) A far different situation from inconsistent riser height.

I'm not getting what JP is saying either, I assume the garage floor as one big landing. Maybe I'm missing something?? It seems adding a landing in that situation just adds a step that is not needed and could in itself add a trip hazard. Whenever I pass through an exterior door, I always look down for an elevation change.

Jerry Peck
05-13-2012, 03:17 PM
I'm not getting what JP is saying either,

Please refer to the attached drawing 02, then answer the question of: "What is this called?"

Your answer: ________________________


I assume the garage floor as one big landing.

Correct on that part.

What is the upper level floor called?

How do you get from the lower level floor to the upper level floor?


It seems adding a landing in that situation just adds a step that is not needed

What step are you adding? All you are doing when you add a landing is moving the stair (the "step" as you call it) from being even with the door and from where the door swings out over the stair, to where the door swings out over the landing - the same stair (the "step" as you call it) is still present, its location has just been relocated. See attached drawing 03


and could in itself add a trip hazard.

"add" ????

What are you "adding"? Nothing has been "added", the stair (the "step" as you call it) has simply been moved so that the door does not swing out over it.


Whenever I pass through an exterior door, I always look down for an elevation change.

As one should, but sometimes one is carrying large bags of groceries, a baby, maybe even laundry, or ... any number of things which would, could, block your view.

Door Guy
05-13-2012, 04:12 PM
Please refer to the attached drawing 02, then answer the question of: "What is this called?"

Your answer: ________________________



Correct on that part.

What is the upper level floor called?

How do you get from the lower level floor to the upper level floor


What step are you adding? All you are doing when you add a landing is moving the stair (the "step" as you call it) from being even with the door and from where the door swings out over the stair, to where the door swings out over the landing - the same stair (the "step" as you call it) is still present, its location has just been relocated. See attached drawing 03



"add" ????

What are you "adding"? Nothing has been "added", the stair (the "step" as you call it) has simply been moved so that the door does not swing out over it.



As one should, but sometimes one is carrying large bags of groceries, a baby, maybe even laundry, or ... any number of things which would, could, block your view.


Ok, makes sense now. Also re-read the code.... I'll buy what your sellin' now.

Jerry Peck
05-13-2012, 04:32 PM
Ok, makes sense now. Also re-read the code.... I'll buy what your sellin' now.

It's a 2-for-1 special ... ;) ... Kristi, are you ready to buy the other 1/2 of the special? :)

Kristi Silber
05-13-2012, 11:27 PM
Please refer to the attached drawing 02, then answer the question of: "What is this called?"

Your answer: ________________________



Correct on that part.

What is the upper level floor called?

How do you get from the lower level floor to the upper level floor?



What step are you adding? All you are doing when you add a landing is moving the stair (the "step" as you call it) from being even with the door and from where the door swings out over the stair, to where the door swings out over the landing - the same stair (the "step" as you call it) is still present, its location has just been relocated. See attached drawing 03



"add" ????

What are you "adding"? Nothing has been "added", the stair (the "step" as you call it) has simply been moved so that the door does not swing out over it.

Actually, you'd be moving one stair and adding two more if the door is not near a corner: one for each side of the landing.


As one should, but sometimes one is carrying large bags of groceries, a baby, maybe even laundry, or ... any number of things which would, could, block your view. You have to step down somewhere! Personally, if I can't see my feet, I'd rather have a step down lined up with the door frame than 30" away from it. Better frame of reference. So to speak.

No, I don't buy the other half. Sorry!:)

Door Guy
05-14-2012, 04:23 AM
It's a 2-for-1 special ... ;) ... Kristi, are you ready to buy the other 1/2 of the special? :)

Not so fast, I will buy what you are selling, but I'm not drinking the koolaid. What you're quoting is code compliant, but I don't see that being any less of a hazard stepping down at the threshold than at the landing.

In fact I would agree with Kristi, I prefer the elevation change at the door sill where I would expect it.

Not my choice though with the way the code reads....

Door Guy
05-14-2012, 04:40 AM
A little further explanation.... so in a garage with a 4" step-up into the house, you will need a 3x3 landing that has a 4" step/stair. Which is not a good riser height. Trust me, I have a 4" curb in my garage around 2 sides of the garage floor, if I had a nickel for everyone that just about bit the dust stepping off it, I'd be retired by now. It is a major trip hazard! I would never recommend it.

Anyways, you now have a landing sticking up 4" high with the rest of the garage being completely flat. This is a hazard walking by, getting out of the car and especially if you have your hands full and can't look down. Just my opinion...

It is the code.... JP you buying what I'm selling yet? Or at least recognize the point here?

Dana Bostick
05-14-2012, 06:57 AM
An outward swinging door also exposes the hinges & pins that can be easily removed to gain entry. Of course, these should be "pinned" to prevent removal.

I was watching a movie (foreign) the other night and happened to notice all the exterior doors the characters accessed swung outwards. Funny the stupid stuff one notices.:rolleyes:
Always the Inspector! :D

Jerry Peck
05-14-2012, 06:04 PM
JP you buying what I'm selling yet? Or at least recognize the point here?

You are Kristi are selling nothing but tainted koolaid. :eek: :p :)

No way am I going to be buying that tainted drink - this is no Jonestown here.

Kristi Silber
05-14-2012, 08:36 PM
Thanks, Randy, for chiming in - though we haven't managed to convince JP of anything!:D I imagine everyone else got bored with the discussion long ago. Not surprising; so did I.:rolleyes: I sure liked Jerry's spiffy diagrams, though! The thread was worth it just for that.

I just wanted to comment about this little tidbit from many posts back: "Whenever I pass through an exterior door, I always look down for an elevation change." This isn't actually considered an exterior door since it leads into an attached garage. A small point, but it does make a difference code-wise...but you probably realized that.:)

Dana, the hinges on outward swinging exterior doors (those designed for exterior applications) are tamper-proof, so not a concern.

Ian Page
05-14-2012, 11:09 PM
Thanks, Randy, for chiming in - though we haven't managed to convince JP of anything!:D I imagine everyone else got bored with the discussion long ago. Not surprising; so did I.:rolleyes: I sure liked Jerry's spiffy diagrams, though! The thread was worth it just for that.

I just wanted to comment about this little tidbit from many posts back: "Whenever I pass through an exterior door, I always look down for an elevation change." This isn't actually considered an exterior door since it leads into an attached garage. A small point, but it does make a difference code-wise...but you probably realized that.:)

Dana, the hinges on outward swinging exterior doors (those designed for exterior applications) are tamper-proof, so not a concern.

Kristi
The point you seem to be missing is that with or without an elevation change an inward swinging door allows the transgressor the ability to view what's ahead before crossing the threshold. The swing of the door prevents forward movement until the door is open - at least to 90 deg. (+/-), thereby alerting the user to the potential hazard which may be some 3' - 4' away at that point (assuming he/she is looking where they are going). Even so, a small change in elevation may not be noticed but is likely expected. The outward swinging door affords no such warning - unless the user actively stops their forward movement before crossing the threshold. Any change in elevation is an obvious hazard but providing a landing infront of the (outward) swinging door, when an elevation change exists, minimizes a trip/fall, especially when an elevation change may not be expected. Remember, not everyone passing over the threshold will be familiar with what lies beyond and will likely expect a large surface to step onto with only minimal change in elevation.

Perhaps you did get this point but it was not clear in your postings.

Kristi Silber
05-15-2012, 12:29 AM
Kristi
The point you seem to be missing is that with or without an elevation change an inward swinging door allows the transgressor the ability to view what's ahead before crossing the threshold. The swing of the door prevents forward movement until the door is open - at least to 90 deg. (+/-), thereby alerting the user to the potential hazard which may be some 3' - 4' away at that point (assuming he/she is looking where they are going). Even so, a small change in elevation may not be noticed but is likely expected. If it's not noticed, why would it be expected anymore than if the door swung outward? Plus most door leading to garages are not normal interior doors, so the person would likely expect at least a threshold to step over, and once they see that, they see the step down. The outward swinging door affords no such warning - unless the user actively stops their forward movement before crossing the threshold. Any change in elevation is an obvious hazard but providing a landing infront of the (outward) swinging door, when an elevation change exists, minimizes a trip/fall, especially when an elevation change may not be expected. Remember, not everyone passing over the threshold will be familiar with what lies beyond and will likely expect a large surface to step onto with only minimal change in elevation.

Perhaps you did get this point but it was not clear in your postings.

Well, that's a good point. But I also think a landing could be a trip hazard for people not watching where they're going, especially if they enter the garage through a different door. And in my mind I still come back to the way the code is worded. I just can't see the door swinging over stairs in this case. Maybe it's just a matter of the way it was written - the intent is there, it just doesn't come through for me. It should say, "swinging over stairs or at a higher elevation that the floor beyond," something like that.

Ach, I'm ready to just give up and concede the argument just to be done with it.

Ian Page
05-15-2012, 01:29 AM
Kristi
Any raised threshold, (as would be typical with a garage door) in and of itself, presents something of a trip hazard. We, as humans, are conditioned to expect such a hazard when stepping over things raised off the floor plane and we take care to avoid the danger, some are more adept than others. We are also conditioned to expect a sure and broad-based footing on the other side of the door. When things are not as expected, then trips/falls occur. This is especially true for the elderly and/or infirm.

By example, I recently installed a threshold on a garge door step for an elderly female, where no threshold of draught stop previously existed. The gap between the door and hw floor was excessive and draught prone. Installing both a threshold and draught excluder on the bottom of the door prevented any further draught. Even though the threshold was no more than 1/2" high (x 2" wide) it was not what the homeowner was accustomed to and she had to use extreme care for several days to avoid tripping over it.

Door Guy
05-15-2012, 04:47 AM
Thanks, Randy, for chiming in - though we haven't managed to convince JP of anything!:D I imagine everyone else got bored with the discussion long ago. Not surprising; so did I.:rolleyes: I sure liked Jerry's spiffy diagrams, though! The thread was worth it just for that.

I just wanted to comment about this little tidbit from many posts back: "Whenever I pass through an exterior door, I always look down for an elevation change." This isn't actually considered an exterior door since it leads into an attached garage. A small point, but it does make a difference code-wise...but you probably realized that.:)

Dana, the hinges on outward swinging exterior doors (those designed for exterior applications) are tamper-proof, so not a concern.

Yes, I know it's considered interior. Don't see too many interior doors leading from the house to the garage though. I should have said doors with a sill.

Jerry Peck
05-15-2012, 04:46 PM
Rats, lines and indents didn't work, will need to add drawing of it instead.

Refer to drawing.

Door Guy
05-15-2012, 05:57 PM
Rats, lines and indents didn't work, will need to add drawing of it instead.

Refer to drawing.

The top and bottom lines are what happens to your heart after you drink the koolaid:D

Inside joke....

Door Guy
05-15-2012, 05:59 PM
I think we have pretty much killed this thread!

Jerry Peck
05-15-2012, 06:30 PM
I think we have pretty much killed this thread!

Nope.

Still seem to be a couple of people who don't understand what a stair is, and some call it a step, so we can start with either, then understand what the different parts of the "step" are called, and then what the code calls those parts, and then what the code actually calls the "step" (hint: the first two letters are the same, the last two letters are different ;) ).

It seems that only after what the components are called can one understand what the code says about them (which, when you think about it, makes perfect sense, if one calls the vertical part a "step" then one would not make the connection when the code refers to the vertical part by a different name).

This is not one of those things where one party blindly goes off saying 'we will just have to agree to disagree' as there is no disagreement in the code, the code is quite explicit about this stuff, and if one wants to go off and disagree, that indicates that they either do not understand the terminology or do not wish to understand the terminology, which means that one does not really want to agree to disagree, only that one does not want to understand what the code says.

If one does not want to understand what the code says - that is okay too, but then one should not try to think code about other stuff as we would know that they do not want to understand code. If that is the case, then one should just say so and then drop any mention of code or pretend to think they understand code.

This is really a very clear cut issue.

Door Guy
05-15-2012, 06:37 PM
I get it JP, and I know what a stair is and I completely understand the code section here and I understand what is required by the code and I would write it as a code violation if I ran across it. So if you are trying to convince me of something, it's already a done deal.

Jerry Peck
05-15-2012, 06:43 PM
So if you are trying to convince me of something, it's already a done deal.

Not you ... :)

There is someone else who said "We'll have to simply disagree." ;)

Kristi Silber
05-15-2012, 08:10 PM
Jerry, I hate to say it, but your little diagram of a stairway, and "what is this?" is just silly. I mean, what do you expect me to say?

The issue I have with the wording is the "swinging over" part. You said earlier, "A does not "swing" when it is closed, the door "swing" is from being open to being closed - the door swing is anyplace between fully open and fully closed. And that swing is not allowed to be out over a riser." The door is only fully over the riser when it's closed, and not swinging. But hey, it's true that part of the door is over the riser as it's swinging until it's (nearly) perpendicular to the wall, something I said ages ago, so I can see your point, if that is your point. On the other hand, if the door swung inwards it would be the same: if the outside of the door is flush with the garage side of the wall, the door would be partially over the riser (not to mention the stair) for much of its swing.

To me the code definition of stair is so vague that it's daft in the first place. There is no dimensional aspect. What if the change in elevation were an inch and a half? Would you need a landing an inch and a half high? Now there's a trip hazard! A stair consists of one or more risers, and a riser is "The vertical component of a step or stair." (Yes, Jerry, it says "step"!) That's not very helpful here, when the stair in question doesn't have a component separate from the wall as a whole. So where are the limits of the stair here? How thick is the riser, and how deep is the stair, since the riser is by definition only a component of it? Is the riser in your view the outer surface of the wall under the door? The area of drywall under it?

If this were as clear cut as you think, there would be no argument.


Here's a framing definition: "Riser:

The vertical stair member between two consecutive stair treads."


And here's OSHA's definition: ""Riser." The upright member of a step situated at the back of a lower tread and near the leading edge of the next higher tread."


Inspectapedia: "Definition of stair risers: a stair riser is the vertical space between stair treads (treads are what you step on)."


All of these share as part of the definition of riser the fact that stairs also have treads, which Code apparently ignores.

Rick Cantrell
05-16-2012, 04:29 AM
Jerry, I hate to say it, but your little diagram of a stairway, and "what is this?" is just silly.
You have been provided the code, had the code explained to you, and even been provided diagrams... and Jerry is "silly"?

I mean, what do you expect me to say?
Something like
Now I understand, Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.
or
I still do not understand, but Thank you for taking time to explain it to me

The issue I have with the wording is the "swinging over" part. You said earlier, "A does not "swing" when it is closed, the door "swing" is from being open to being closed - the door swing is anyplace between fully open and fully closed. And that swing is not allowed to be out over a riser." The door is only fully over the riser when it's closed, and not swinging. But hey, it's true that part of the door is over the riser as it's swinging until it's (nearly) perpendicular to the wall, something I said ages ago, so I can see your point, if that is your point. On the other hand, if the door swung inwards it would be the same: if the outside of the door is flush with the garage side of the wall, the door would be partially over the riser (not to mention the stair) for much of its swing.
I think that most people that speaks English understand what "swinging over " is describing.


To me the code definition of stair is so vague that it's daft in the first place.
Take it up with people that write the code


There is no dimensional aspect. What if the change in elevation were an inch and a half? Would you need a landing an inch and a half high? Now there's a trip hazard! A stair consists of one or more risers, and a riser is "The vertical component of a step or stair." (Yes, Jerry, it says "step"!) That's not very helpful here, when the stair in question doesn't have a component separate from the wall as a whole. So where are the limits of the stair here? How thick is the riser, and how deep is the stair, since the riser is by definition only a component of it? Is the riser in your view the outer surface of the wall under the door? The area of drywall under it?

If this were as clear cut as you think, there would be no argument.
Either
(1)you don't understand it, in which case I don't think there is anything else Jerry can do to explain it to you
(2) You think you can change the code by arguing about it
(3) You just want to argue

Accept it, move on to something else

Kristi Silber
05-16-2012, 08:31 AM
I never said Jerry was silly, I said the diagram was. Big difference. His other diagrams I praised, but that one was condescending, if anything. I'm not stupid, I know what a riser is.

I said several posts ago I was ready to concede the argument and be done with it. But that evidently wasn't enough.

I don't know why I'm not allowed to have my own opinion. Maybe it will change in a week or month or year, I don't know. Since I'm not an HI it doesn't make any difference, anyway.

I'm done with this.

Donal Hughes
05-16-2012, 09:29 AM
As a mew member I've been following this with interest. Almost was convinced by Kristi but now see that Jerry must be right. A one riser stair between two floors is still a stair, where each floor is actually the tread.
So the code govering landing requirements would have to apply.
Good argument though.

H.G. Watson, Sr.
05-16-2012, 10:28 AM
(<snipped> from her imbedding in a quote)
No - a stairway with no risers has no risers, period. A riser is a component of a stair. You are equating "rise" with "riser" and that's wrong. Your drawing shows the garage side of the door flush with the wall, which in this case is acting as the riser (though I don't consider it actually a riser)...the door when shut is over the "riser."

It is you who are wrong! A stairway does not exist without a riser.



I understand the code, but this argument has reached the point of silliness, I think. We'll have to simply disagree.

No, you do not understand the code, this is evidenced repeatedly by most every contribution you have made to this discussion.


My point is that as you picture it, the door doesn't swing over stairs (note the code uses the plural),

You make no point. The door does swing over stairs.
THE CODE MAKES NO DISTINCTION the plurality of the word IS IRRELEVANT. You seem to think you have made some sort of "eureka" discovery in your uneducated, untrained, unschooled, use of the code. You have not, and are obviously ignorant of what the code actually says, and how it is used.



R201.2 Interchangeability. Words used in the present tense include the future; words in the masculine gender include the feminine and neuter; the singular number includes the plural and the plural, the singular


The entirety of your "opinions" on this discussion are ignorant, invalid, incorrect, and downright stupendous.


There are no stairs for it to swing over! There's no stairway

If you actually bothered to read "the code" in its entirety, you "might" get a "clue".

This is a stairway, more importantly, it is an exit pathway from the garage. A means of egress from the non-habital but occupiable, utility/garage occupancy.

The door is a separation, AND is an EXIT path for the occupied (not habital) Garage/utility occupancy - the door panel may not encumber/encroach the exit pathway STAIR in the direction of travel (exiting garage) the STAIRWAY, and as pictured and diagramed throughout this discussion - it IS a STAIRWAY.

Landing surfaces are just that - they are not necessarily DEDICATED solely to that purpose (intermediate or otherwise), nor are they necessarily CONSTRUCTED (unfinished grade for example, off an exterior deck stair. The code-required landing areas include that at the beginning of a stairway (the bottom), and any flight (code defined) or "flight" of stairs (again, plural/singular irrelevant). A flight may be a single riser stair.




it swings over the garage floor.

Nope, swings out ABOVE the garage floor, well in excess of the threshold elevation limitation. It (The door panel) swings OUT OVER THE RISER, at an elevation ABOVE THE garage floor (the origination landing area), which in this case IS the garage floor.

That is wrong. It is wrong even if there were no change in elevation. It is wrong from a Life Safety, exit/egress standpoint. Regarding the direction of travel for the EXIT pathway FROM the garage (even if there were no change in elevation here) in the event a need to evacuate the garage by a person who was in the garage.

The door is also a SEPARATION door. It must be able to be CLOSED upon EXIT from an emergant (smoke, fire) evacuation FROM the GARAGE, so that same person evacuating can safely continue in the path of travel evenutally to a primary or secondary exit of the attached home, eventually away from the overall structure and to an area of safety.

That the DOOR is also in an exit stairway makes it additionally critical that it (the door panel) NOT SWING INTO the FLIGHT and meet elevation requirements.

A flight begins at its lowest elevation. It terminates at its highest elevation.

Rick Cantrell
05-16-2012, 10:44 AM
... His other diagrams I praised, but that one was condescending, if anything.

Maybe, but Jerry has been known to be MUCH more aggressive that just "condescending"



I don't know why I'm not allowed to have my own opinion.

You think you are treated differently? Well yes, just read how some people are responded to. You have been given consideration.

H.G. Watson, Sr.
05-16-2012, 11:52 AM
I never said Jerry was silly, I said the diagram was. Big difference. His other diagrams I praised, but that one was condescending, if anything. I'm not stupid, I know what a riser is.

I said several posts ago I was ready to concede the argument and be done with it. But that evidently wasn't enough.

I don't know why I'm not allowed to have my own opinion. Maybe it will change in a week or month or year, I don't know. Since I'm not an HI it doesn't make any difference, anyway.

I'm done with this.

No you don't know, or at least fail to demonstrate, just what a rise or a riser is. A "riser" is the specific "RISE" between elevation relationship points.

ELEVATION CHANGE a means to an end. It is NOT limited to a physical constructed element - it is a state, a condition, specifically the relationship of elements in three dimensions at differing elevations. A riser can be OPEN SPACE between two elements at differing elevations.

You also fail to grasp that the swing of a door is code restricted to the elevation of same.

You are not spouting opinions. You do not understand the subject matter that you sbecause you lack information and understanding. The concepts of a stair, a flight, a stairway, are three dimensional not two dimensional. The overall subject, topic of this discussion, and this forum is OYH. If you spent half of the time you spent posting on this forum, reading & studying you might comprehend a thing or two.

You characterized the discussion as argument and that Jerry's responsive discussion was silliness early on. You did not merely categorize a singluar diagram as silly.

You were provided with two key CODE definitions early on.

Kristi Silber
05-16-2012, 02:14 PM
I have only one thing to comment on. I have a lot of respect for Jerry and his knowledge and experience, and never meant to offend or insult him in any way. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I do appreciate the time he has taken to try to explain this point to me. I know it must be frustrating.

Jerry Peck
05-16-2012, 05:39 PM
Jerry, I hate to say it, but your little diagram of a stairway, and "what is this?" is just silly. I mean, what do you expect me to say?

I expected you to either call that vertical piece a "riser", or at the very least a "step" - in which case I would then take you to the code definitions and show you what a "riser" is, what a "tread" is, what a "stair" is, and what a "stairway" is.

You may think it is silly to get back to basics, however, you apparently have a severe lacking of understanding of stairs and stairways, thus understanding what the various parts are called is definitely NOT "silly".


The issue I have with the wording is the "swinging over" part.

Your other posts indicated you had more issues than just understanding what "swinging over" is - but I will start with that.

Let's say you are at a window, a casement window, and that the window is on the first floor in the wall about 3 feet above the floor, and that the case swings outward (as a typical casement windows would).

Okay, based on the above, you unlatch the window and swing it open ... do you swing the casement window out ... over ... the wall below? If not, please explain how you are opening that casement and what that casement window is swinging out over.

If you agree that you are swinging that casement window out over the wall below, then do this: replace the casement window with a door, and lower it to the level of the floor - the door would be swinging out over the wall below, so now place a garage next to that door and that wall becomes about 7" tall instead of several feet tall ... the door is still swinging out over what is below it, in this case that wall is now a riser as you step down from the higher floor level to the lower garage level.


You said earlier, "A does not "swing" when it is closed, the door "swing" is from being open to being closed - the door swing is anyplace between fully open and fully closed. And that swing is not allowed to be out over a riser."

Correct, I did say that.


The door is only fully over the riser when it's closed, ...

Incorrect. The door is *not* over the riser at all when it is closed, the typical door is slightly set back from the face of the wall and from the face of the riser, the door is over the higher level floor.


and not swinging.

Correct, the door is not swinging, the door is closed.


But hey, it's true that part of the door is over the riser as it's swinging until it's (nearly) perpendicular to the wall, something I said ages ago, so I can see your point, if that is your point.

That is the point and that is, indeed, when the door is swinging over the riser.


On the other hand, if the door swung inwards it would be the same:

Nope. If that door swung inwards it would swing over *the floor*, *not the riser*.


... if the outside of the door is flush with the garage side of the wall, the door would be partially over the riser (not to mention the stair) for much of its swing.

Nope. *IF* the outside of the door is flush with the garage side of the wall - which is something I have not seen as the doors are always ... er ... typically always ... recessed back in the jambs. One could install a door that way, but if the door were to swing inward then it would be *extremely* difficult to install a door that way as the door would be near the inside edge of the jambs, not the outside edge of the jambs.


To me the code definition of stair is so vague ...

That is because you do not understand it, if you did understand it (the code) then you would understand how precise it is.


What if the change in elevation were an inch and a half? Would you need a landing an inch and a half high?

Depends. What you would be measuring the 1-1/2" from?
- R311.3.1 Floor elevations at the required egress doors.
- - Landings or finished floors at the required egress door shall not be more than 1 1/2 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold.
- - - Exception: The landing or floor on the exterior side shall not be more than 7 3/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold provided the door does not swing over the landing or floor.
How high is the threshold you would have installed at that door?


A stair consists of one or more risers, and a riser is "The vertical component of a step or stair." (Yes, Jerry, it says "step"!)

Kristi, what code is that out of, thanks.


That's not very helpful here, when the stair in question doesn't have a component separate from the wall as a whole.

Ahh ... but it does have, and is, a component separate from the wall as a whole.

The wall is above the door, to each side of the door, and (typically in a case as is being discussed here, the edge of the raised floor level down to the lower garage level is the edge of the slab, but one could call it a "wall", so I will go with "wall" to be on the same page as you are.

The wall, then, is above the door, to each side of the door (all the way up to the ceiling above and down to the lower garage floor level). The edge of the floor which is below the doorway opening is the "riser". It is a separate component from the wall as a whole.


So where are the limits of the stair here?

The stair is that riser.


How thick is the riser, ...

Why does it matter "how thick" the riser is? Would you not call a 2x8 (1-1/2" thick by 7-1/4" high) a riser? Would you not call an open riser (no thickness, but does have height) a riser? Would you not call a heavy railroad tie a riser when the heavy railroad ties were stacked up as a stair (probably 12" thick)?

How thick is too thick for a riser? How thin is too thin for a riser?
- A. The thickness has nothing to do with something being, or nor being a "riser", the simple "height" difference makes it a "riser".


Is the riser in your view the outer surface of the wall under the door?

Answered above: a "riser" *is* "height", "thickness" has nothing to do with it. I will bring the open riser back up yet again - there is *NO* "thickness" to an open "riser", yet it is still a "riser".


The area of drywall under it?

Could be - if there was drywall on that surface, but installing drywall there creates other potential problems.


If this were as clear cut as you think, there would be no argument.

It is that clear cut, you have just closed your mind to open thinking.


Here's a framing definition: "Riser:
The vertical stair member between two consecutive stair treads."

And here's OSHA's definition: ""Riser." The upright member of a step situated at the back of a lower tread and near the leading edge of the next higher tread."

Inspectapedia: "Definition of stair risers: a stair riser is the vertical space between stair treads (treads are what you step on)."

All of these share as part of the definition of riser the fact that stairs also have treads, which Code apparently ignores.

First, all of those share one thing in common: (see my bold highlighting above)
- The "riser" is the difference in height between one tread and another tread.

Yet again, I go back to the "open riser" stair - what is the "open riser"? It *IS* a "component" of the stair, yet it is nothing, it is air, it is the nothingness between the two treads, yet it is still a "riser".


All of these share as part of the definition of riser the fact that stairs also have treads, which Code apparently ignores.

You say the code ignores threads? Have you not read the code? The code *DOES* address treads. Your post is showing of lot of what is opposite to the normal you - you are apparently speaking of something you have not checked out (you have obviously not read the code, otherwise you would not have said the code ignores treads). Typically I see that you have done your research before posting.

Your post explains VERY WELL WHY COVERING THE BASICS IS NOT "SILLY".

Kristi Silber
05-16-2012, 07:50 PM
No go. I said I'm done, and I mean it. You've got the last word.

Riser: The vertical component of a step or stair. ICC 2012.

Jerry Peck
05-16-2012, 08:18 PM
No go. I said I'm done, and I mean it. You've got the last word.

Riser: The vertical component of a step or stair. ICC 2012.

Found your reference in the 2012 IRC:
- RISER.
- - 1. The vertical component of a step or stair.

Previously those definitions have only been in the IBC, not the IRC. Neither the IBC nor the IRC defines a step, however, both define a stair as:
- STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers.

So, you DO understand what a "riser" is, in which case your resistance to using the term "riser" when a "stair" (or "step") is present befuddles the mind. If you know what it is, why insist that one is not present when it is?

No, I really do not expect you to answer. Your last post acknowledging that you understand what a "riser", "stair", and "step" is, combined with totally not recognizing a riser or stair when one is pointed out to you confirms that your mind was closed and that this exchange was just an exercise fin futility.

Kristi Silber
05-16-2012, 09:11 PM
Oh, and just FYI, I do read the code. I refer to it just about every day. I've read and reread the stuff about egress, and stairs, and stairways, and landings, and nosings... I know the code talks about treads, but not in the context of the definition of riser.

I'm sure you're interpreting the code right. I'm taking too literal a view, and have a different picture in my head of the door and riser in question. I really don't care anymore.

EDIT: Where did you ever get the idea that I am saying there is no riser??? Of course there is!

H.G. Watson, Sr.
05-16-2012, 09:38 PM
I said I'm done, and I mean it. You've got the last word.


..... :rolleyes:

Shud up wit da shuddin up.