Drip Leg Comment back from the AHJ

[Rick Hurst]

I sent a email to our local city AHJ regarding drip legs and why they don't enforce the code. Being in Texas, drip legs are not common to observe but the subject is brought up quite often on inspections.

Mr. Hurst,

The City doesn't enforce the code requirements concerning drip legs
because the natural gas in our area is dry gas. I haven't researched the
requirements of the UPC, but the City's adopted Codes, the 2006 IRC and
IFGC, both require that a sediment trap be installed when a sediment
trap is not incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment (water
heater, furnace). The Building Inspection Department will begin
enforcing Section 408.4 of the 2006 IFGC and Section G2419.4 of the 2006
IRC. Thank you for your inquiry and concerns about sediment trap code
requirements. Please feel free to contact me if you have any code
questions or concerns.

Regards,
__________________________________________________ _______________

[Jerry McCarthy]

And all these years I thought it was "wet gas?" :confused: :(

[Jerry Peck]

Rick,

Now try it using the correct term: "sediment traps". :)

"Drip legs" *are not required* unless the gas contains sufficient moisture.

"Sediment traps" *are required* ... regardless.

See if his response is the same when you ask about "sediment traps". :D

[Jim Luttrall]

Jerry, did you read the AHJ's respnse? Seems right on the money.
Good job Rick. Who knew it would be so easy?
What city?


The City doesn't enforce the code requirements concerning drip legs
because the natural gas in our area is dry gas. I haven't researched the
requirements of the UPC, but the City's adopted Codes, the 2006 IRC and
IFGC, both require that a sediment trap be installed when a sediment
trap is not incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment (water
heater, furnace). The Building Inspection Department will begin
enforcing Section 408.4 of the 2006 IFGC and Section G2419.4 of the 2006
IRC. Thank you for your inquiry and concerns about sediment trap code
requirements. Please feel free to contact me if you have any code
questions or concerns.

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, did you read the AHJ's respnse?

:o Yes, but I got sidetracked with a phone call, then came back to it, and ... missed reading on beyond what I had first read ... :o


Seems right on the money.
Good job Rick. Who knew it would be so easy?
What city?

:o I agree, they already addressed what I said in the latter part. :o

I'll go back to my corner now ... :o

(memo to self - make sure to read all of the post after getting sidetracked and going back to it)

[Jim Luttrall]

List of words to avoid lest you press EC Jerry's Buttons:
Sub panel
Fire rated
Drip leg
:D

[Ted Menelly]

I sent a email to our local city AHJ regarding drip legs and why they don't enforce the code. Being in Texas, drip legs are not common to observe but the subject is brought up quite often on inspections.

Mr. Hurst,

The City doesn't enforce the code requirements concerning drip legs
because the natural gas in our area is dry gas. I haven't researched the
requirements of the UPC, but the City's adopted Codes, the 2006 IRC and
IFGC, both require that a sediment trap be installed when a sediment
trap is not incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment (water
heater, furnace). The Building Inspection Department will begin
enforcing Section 408.4 of the 2006 IFGC and Section G2419.4 of the 2006
IRC. Thank you for your inquiry and concerns about sediment trap code
requirements. Please feel free to contact me if you have any code
questions or concerns.

Regards,
__________________________________________________ _______________


Great job Rick

Could you please call all the cities in the greater Tarant County area so I can stop putting my disclaimer in my report about sediment traps :)

[Jim Luttrall]

Ted, if they start enforcing it now... let's see, you might be able to see them installed properly in about 15-20 years, maybe.
Don't hold your breath!:D

[Ted Menelly]

Shoot Jim

I'll only be 69 to 74. I might still be around :)

[Nolan Kienitz]

Could you please call all the cities in the greater Tarant County area so I can stop putting my disclaimer in my report about sediment traps :)

Ted,

Let's see now ... between a few of us we can sub-divide the DFW Metro Counties and get our assigned list of cities and start dialing .... Errr ... let me think about this now.

Ahh .. Likely not.

Anyway ... bottom line is that information from Rick is very good.

When inspecting the Houston market always wrote up the sediment traps ... and we actually saw them installed. Just doesn't happen up here in DFW.

[Ted Menelly]

Actually, Rick made a conscious decision to try and make a difference.


So I guess by him doing so it it *may* have made a difference, I think he did well.

Calling, well, Today for instance I am way to seriously busy with a day off to be able to make all those calls :)

It seems the past few weeks have been, do a couple inspections at the beginning of the week and then a day or 2 off in the middle of the week and then the end of the week and Saturday is busy again.

[Nolan Kienitz]

I have sent questions regarding the "sediment trap" to:

Cities of: Dallas, Little Elm, McKinney, Plano, Wylie, Allen, Frisco.

I had a call from a CBO at Dallas this afternoon, I've received a reply already from Plano.

When I get a chance and get more replies I'll compile and post. Hopefully over this weekend. I am taking Friday off as I'll be out of town with family business due to a death in the family.

[BARRY ADAIR]

I am taking Friday off as I'll be out of town with family business due to a death in the family.

Our condolences from my family to yours.


Good job, Mr. Hurst

[Glenn Duxbury]

Hi all &

* 'Up here' (B.C., Canada), we call 'em dirt legs /sediment legs, in case that's a new term you haven't heard.

Geez & all the time I thought ours was 'clean'...



-Glenn Duxbury, CHI

[Jim Luttrall]

Our condolences from my family to yours.


Good job, Mr. Hurst

Ditto Nolan and Rick.

[Nolan Kienitz]

Thanks for wishes guys.

OK - Now here is some information I've obtained from two of the AHJ's I sent questions regarding the gas-line sediment trap.

From AHJ's verbal phone calls:
"Drip Legs" for moisture concerns and only at meter.
"Sediment Trap or Dirt Leg" for debris and at appliance (IE: furnace, water heater).

Phone call from City of Dallas Code Official: Said that (their view) with the multiple vertical rises in the gas lines in/around the meter and to house and more vertical rise changes, etc. and that the gas delivered is 'dry' it has never been a requirement to require a sediment trap at the appliance. He commented that the IRC (and others) are a 'nationally written' code and that there are local variances/exceptions, etc. In this market (DFW) this particular item does not apply.

I asked him why then they did not have this written up as an 'amendment' to "not be required"? He said that maybe he would bring it up at a future meeting of the local AHJ's where some of them write 'combined' amendments to the IRC, etc. He said that in his 23-years with the City of Dallas this is the first time anyone has brought this item up as a concern or interest. BTW - He was very open, friendly, etc. and not at all argumentative.

I told him that Rowlett's AHJ was going to start checking for it (per Rick's note) and he found that interesting, but commented that wasn't necessary - in his view/interpretation.


Here is an e-mail from the City of Plano, TX:

Plano does not require the sediment trap or drip leg due to the fact that moisture in the gas has never been an issue in Plano. Sediment is usually the by product of moisture within the system and sediment traps would normally be installed at the appliances whereas, drip legs deal with moisture accumulation within the system due to elevation changes in piping (slope/verticle risers). Ronnie Frazier with Oncore gas has told me that Plano has never had moisture related issues however, if there is any moisture within the gas mains that the provider is able to filter at gas regulation stations throughout the city therefore, drip legs and sediment traps are not necessary. I as a master plumber believe it is best to have as few joints as possible in a gas system and adding joints that are not necessary creates a greater potential for gas leaks.

Gary Miles, CBO
Assistant Building Official
Building Inspection Department
City of Plano
+++++++++++++

That is all I have so far.

When digging on-line the other night I noted that Frisco and Dallas both have their code amendments available and that they are very similar documents. Which synchs up with what the City of Dallas official commented on ... in that some of the AHJ's do meet and discuss some of these items, but each AHJ has their own guideline, but some things must be shared, etc.

[Rick Hurst]

For the locals in our area (eg. Jim and Nolan)

The City of McKinney called me today and told me as of this past Monday, they are now requiring "sediment" traps.

Rick

[imported_John Smith]

How come the "assistant building official" is interpreting requirements. Is the building official vacation?

[Nolan Kienitz]

How come the "assistant building official" is interpreting requirements. Is the building official vacation?

He was "directed" to do so by his boss ... the :"building official". I got a reply from the boss first with a cc to the assistant being advised to help me out.

[Nolan Kienitz]

EC Jerry ought to be proud of this effort. Most especially you, Rick H., for taking the lead to start the questioning.

Good things 'can' happen from time to time.

KUDOs to you.

[Jim Luttrall]

The City of McKinney called me today and told me as of this past Monday, they are now requiring "sediment" traps.


Given the recent history for gas service and the news in McKinney lately I bet they have been told to get everything "right".
Good timing Rick.

[Jerry Peck]

EC Jerry ought to be proud of this effort. Most especially you, Rick H., for taking the lead to start the questioning.

Good things 'can' happen from time to time.

KUDOs to you.

Absolutely, I am.

I've been saying that for years - keep writing them up, keep questioning them to the AHJ (in the manner of 'asking' them about things) and things will start to happen.

This one just did.

Way to go Rick H., way to get the ball rolling. Building officials and inspectors *do* talk to each other and do attend continuing education classes together, the word will spread.

[Nolan Kienitz]

Texas (DFW area) inspectors:


We can now add another AHJ to the list of those that are now inspecting for the "sediment traps". I just got a message for the most recent add to the list.
Rockwall, TX
McKinney, TX
Little Elm, TX

[Rick Hurst]

Nolan,

Today we conquer North Texas
Tommorrow the World. :D

rick

[Bob Harper]

Nolan,I still for the life of me cannot understand code enforcers who cannot read their own da*n code! They must enforce the code and not cherry pick it.

Mr. Master plumber's comments about sediment traps representing "unnecessary joints" makes me think he's been smoking a joint. What a dope (pun). He is hung up on the wet gas thing. That is regarding "drips"---not sediment traps. The ICC, unlike Mr. Master Plumber, understands there can be other crap in the gas lines and the appliances deserve protection. There have been several court cases involving gas valve failures due to particulate matter clogging the valve seat. Traps are designed to catch this stuff, too. I have found condensed hydrocarbons, oils, water, rust, pipe dope, Teflon tape, rocks,,,,,,,,yes, I said rocks as in gravel! I have found CSST lines with over a gallon of water in them from new construction where the ends were left uncapped to the rain. Traps are Not unnecessary and provide valuable protection for the appliances as well as a convenient point to attach a manometer and test the gas pressure. I think Mr. Master plumber need to get his head out of the bowl and screw it on straight.

This is the issue that simply won't die no matter how clear cut. Amazing!
Can you tell I'm frustrated?
Bob

[Nolan Kienitz]

... They must enforce the code and not cherry pick it. ... Bob

I'm sure it is or can be similar at AHJ's all over the U.S.. Not for anything there is a lot of cherry picking enforcement. Don't like it, but it is what it is.

One comment that set me on my heels, while talking to the City of Dallas Code Official last Thursday, was his comment that the IRC and other codes were "national" codes and that there are variances in different areas of the country. He continued to say that not 'everything' in the code books applied to our region.

In our particular conversation we were talking about gas delivery, sediment traps, etc.. He said that "drip legs" and "sediment traps" were absolutely not needed in our area due to the fact that our gas delivery mechanism is so good and that the product is well filtered by the utility and that it is dry gas.

I quickly countered with "I didn't agree with him" on his comment about the "national" code not applying ... and if that were the case why didn't the AHJ have an amendment on the books regarding (in this case) the sediment trap? He said that they may work on that.

I've since sent him an e-mail advising him that some local AHJ's are "now" inspecting for the "sediment trap". Maybe he will reconsider. ;)

[Bob Harper]

Nolan, keep up the good fight. I suggest when discussing this issue, you focus on these points:
-It is code and therefore, LAW
-It is there to guard against particulates as well as liquids
-There are other liquids than those derived from "wet gas" or gas delivery
-Most mfrs. require them
-falure to use them can result in delayed ignition, fire, or explosion
-there is no valid reason Not to incorporate them

If they don't get it now, they are utterly hopeless.
Hang in there!
Bob

[Nolan Kienitz]

Texas (DFW area) inspectors:


We can now add another AHJ to the list of those that are now inspecting for the "sediment traps". I just got a message for the most recent add to the list.
Rockwall, TX
McKinney, TX
Little Elm, TX

It appears more AHJ's are getting on board. I received a call this morning from Wylie, TX and they have also confirmed they are inspecting for "sediment traps". Contact also said Wylie is following all the most current releases of code, except for NEC ... they are using 2005.


Wylie, TX

[Dylan Whitehead]

I am sure that most you guys don't have a lot of work in the City of Forest Hill, but you can add it to the list. As the building inspector for the city I make sure that any new, or upgraded gas work must have a sediment trap at the appliances. Just wanted to let it be known that there are some who do enforce the code.

[Rick Hurst]

Well, complaining to the city has finally paid off concerning sediment traps.

Here's the first one on a new build I've come across. Where else but Wylie? I wonder why?:D

Rick

[Jerry Peck]

Sediment trap ... TWO condensate lines ... BOTH trapped ... Good Golly Miss Molly!

Way to go guys!

Of course, though, I see some things missing (huh? how can "I see" "some things" which are "missing"?) in that photo.

[Rick Hurst]

Jerry,

What would that be? Missing you mention.

Support for that hard pipe?

rick

Yeah, me and Nolan have been working on the AHJ lately.

[Nolan Kienitz]

Rick,

We were both in Wylie today. I was doing an FHA Final (new home) this morning over there as well.


Sediment Trap
Power Vented Blower Assembly

[Jerry Peck]

From what I see, or do not see, in the photo:

- no support for the gas pipe (that's one)

- no support for the PVC pipe (could be secured to side of pan)

- no cut-off switch in pan (but it is possible that it is just not in view in the photo)

- the traps for the PVC lines are backward - the line coming out of the AHU should be higher than the line continuing out from the other side of the trap, otherwise, the water will have to raise to the level of the pipe on the outlet side of the trap, which could overflow the pan on the inlet side of the trap (could be optical illusion, but I think it is really that way)

- loose NM cable (if that is what it is) hanging down in front of the AHU

- no overflow from the secondary condensate line into the pan, which means that for water to get into the pan, the water must overflow inside the unit, ruining the insulation within the unit (wet insulation is ruined insulation)

[Rick Hurst]

Nolan,

I've seen way too much of this lately. Have you noticed?

[Jim Luttrall]

Great shot of the sediment trap and condensate lines guys.
I guess the AHJ did listen!
Jim

[Rick Hurst]

Jerry,

I thought maybe you were referring to the cut-off switch in the pan and the gas line support.

All of the other items you mention are dead on. You my man are a true genious with a great eye.:)

rick

[Nolan Kienitz]

Nolan,

I've seen way too much of this lately. Have you noticed?

Yep. Have seen several. Too much of a rush and lack of thought when it comes to placing the puzzle pieces together.

[Rick Cantrell]

Jerry
I'm having some lab work done and a physical next week. Would it be to much to ask for you to look over the results? You know, just to make sure the doctor and lab techs didn't miss anything.:)
Thanks in advance

[Jerry Peck]

I'm having some lab work done and a physical next week. Would it be to much to ask for you to look over the results?


I see you have the first part covered (the Lab work), if you need a 'cat scan', I can send over one of our cats. :)

[Vern Heiler]

Jerry,

- no overflow from the secondary condensate line into the pan, which means that for water to get into the pan, the water must overflow inside the unit, ruining the insulation within the unit (wet insulation is ruined insulation)

why would you want to dump secondary overflow into the pan when it is already plumbed to the exterior, hopefully to above a window or door?

The auxilary drain pan is also plumbed to the same overflow drain line. This part looks good to me.

[Jerry Peck]

why would you want to dump secondary overflow into the pan when it is already plumbed to the exterior, hopefully to above a window or door?

To restate that differently:

I would plumb the secondary drain line to the axillary drain pan, to prevent the condensate from overflowing the pan in the unit and getting the interior of the unit all wet.

The auxiliary drain pan would then have: a) a the secondary (now auxiliary) drain line connected to it, and, b) a cut off switch in case that backed up and water started accumulating in the auxiliary drain pan.

The secondary condensate drain would still be trapped - properly trapped, that is.


The auxilary drain pan is also plumbed to the same overflow drain line. This part looks good to me.

Currently, in the photo, there is no ... wait a friggin minute here ... I just noticed something ... that the auxiliary drain pan IS connected to THE PRIMARY condensate drain (so much for my 'good eye') - you do not want THAT. When the primary condensate line backs up, water will flow out that tee and into the auxiliary drain pan! Yikes!

Rick - another item to add to your list! :D

Anyway, getting back to the preferred way ... primary condensate drain line *properly* trapped and routed to outdoors, with the secondary condensate drain line *properly* trapped draining to the auxiliary drain pan, with the auxiliary drain pan being both drained to the outdoors to a conspicuous area AND a cut-off switch.

Not saying the above is 'required by code', just that it is 'the best way' to avoid condensate damage to everything you can, including the evaporator unit itself.

[Ted Menelly]

Jerry,


why would you want to dump secondary overflow into the pan when it is already plumbed to the exterior, hopefully to above a window or door?

The auxilary drain pan is also plumbed to the same overflow drain line. This part looks good to me.


By some unfortunate reason both the primary and secondary lines are clogged the condensate water will drain into the pan instead of having to overflow inside the unit causing damage. I have seen that happen in a no maintenance home where the water was filling into the supply plenum and then into one of the lower connected ducts. That duct dipped down to get to another section of attic and then had to go back up to the supply vent. There was better than 3 gallons of water in the dip of that duct and mold throughout the unit.

[Vern Heiler]

Currently, in the photo, there is no ... wait a friggin minute here ... I just noticed something ... that the auxiliary drain pan IS connected to THE PRIMARY condensate drain (so much for my 'good eye') - you do not want THAT. When the primary condensate line backs up, water will flow out that tee and into the auxiliary drain pan! Yikes

What would lead you to believe the right (higher) condensate port is the primary?


By some unfortunate reason both the primary and secondary lines are clogged the condensate water will drain into the pan instead of having to overflow inside the unit causing damage.

Thats where the float or wet switch comes in!

[Jerry Peck]

What would lead you to believe the right (higher) condensate port is the primary?


:o

Dyslexia? :eek:

:o

Sorry about that.

I'll take may 40 lashes with a wet noodle now then go to my corner.

The *lower* one is the "primary" one, the *higher* one is the "secondary" one ... *I KNEW DAT* ... I did, I really really did. :o

BUT ... I would STILL NOT run them together - for the reasons I gave above.

[Wayne Carlisle]

- no cut-off switch in pan (but it is possible that it is just not in view in the photo)

- no overflow from the secondary condensate line into the pan, which means that for water to get into the pan, the water must overflow inside the unit, ruining the insulation within the unit (wet insulation is ruined insulation)

Jerry; this is the way I read the code. The pan doesn't need a cut-off switch since the code says that a secondary drain can be installed "OR" an auxillary drain pan shall be installed (M1411.3.1). They have installed a secondary drain. It's not right because the vent is on the wrong side of the trap but there is a secondary drain.

The code doesn't require the overflow to dump into the pan. It requires the secondary condensate to drain to a conspicuous point of disposal to alert occupants in the event of stoppage. M1411.3.1(2).

Now if they don't pipe the secondary drain to a conspicuous place and decide to drop it into an auxillary pan, that pan needs to either drain to a conspicuous place OR install a cut-off switch. You can't require anything more than what the minimum code requires.

[Rick Cantrell]

"Dyslexia? :eek: :

And to think, I was going to trust you with my lab results. Sheezz

[Rick Hurst]

Then there is the HVAC contractors who make no attempt at all to try to get it right.

rick

[Wayne Carlisle]

At least they used purple primer!

Off topic here a bit but I was doing an add-on to my mothers house out in Azle, Texas. Added on a bathroom, dining room and a kitchen. I called the inspector for an inspection of the plumbing rough-in and here are his exact words.
Inspector: Did you use purple primer?
Me: Uhhhhh yes!
Inspector: That's good then....go ahead and cover it up!
Me: You sure?
Inspector: YEP! I'll put it down as passed inspection!

Wow! I didn't know that all you had to do was use plenty of purple primer! I sprayed purple primer all over the framing just to make sure I got a green tag!!!:rolleyes: :eek:

[Mike Schulz]

They have installed a secondary drain. It's not right because the vent is on the wrong side of the trap but there is a secondary drain.


Wayne,
It is my understanding that the stand pipes are cleanouts not vents. I have seen them before the traps and after the traps. If they are before the trap they need capped, after the trap they can be left open.

[Jerry Peck]

It is my understanding that the stand pipes are cleanouts not vents. I have seen them before the traps and after the traps.

If they are before the trap they need capped, after the trap they can be left open.

That's because "before the trap" they are "cleanouts not vents", and if "after the trap" they are "vents" (which can also serve as a 'cleanout', although that is not their primary purpose).

[Mike Schulz]

If the stand pipe is before the trap and capped for obvious reasons then the drain is not "vented". So why would you need a vent on the other side of the trap if the above does not.

[Jerry Peck]

If the stand pipe is before the trap and capped for obvious reasons then the drain is not "vented". So why would you need a vent on the other side of the trap if the above does not.

Because, when this is done: " If the stand pipe is before the trap and capped for obvious reasons then the drain is not "vented". ", it should be vented.

Putting the 'stand pipe' on the downstream side of the trap is where it should be, so it can serve as a vent.

Put it on the upstream side of the trap and you really should put one in on the downstream side too. :)

[Mike Schulz]

Jerry you are correct as always........... Here is a good read on the subject. http://www.psdmagazine.com/ASPE_memberpdf/20070304/CodeUpdate.pdf

After reading this it seems to me all should be vented and after the trap. So if the stand pipes before the trap are installed and none after the trap it should be called out, "correct" ?

[Rick Hurst]

Mike,

You are correct. Now if we can only convince the HVAC installers.

rick