Outlet just outside it's life [Archive] - InspectionNews

Thom Walker

05-09-2007, 07:49 AM

I didn't say it was incorrect. I said it was right side up. I'm sick and tired of all you "electrician types" always putting the ground down. It's like it's beneath you or something.

We here at NOGUTS (National Organization of Grounds Up Top of Slots) have had enough of your alleged "convention." Our illustrators have permeated your nefarious publications and are changing the pictorials as we speak. We have members inside the NCE elite. Coed Check has already be reeducated. Your fancy-schmancy "convention" is doomed.

Rise up Ground, Rise up!

[If you'd like to become a certified member of NOGUTS, send your application, along with your credit card, pin#, and SASE to me. I'll send you a test booklet (one question, two hour time limit, self proctored) and an answer sheet so you can check yourself when you're finished. A certification certificate will be enclosed. Do not use it if you don't pass the test.]

Tim Moreira

05-09-2007, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Tim Moreira http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/images/ca_evo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/953-outlet-just-outside-its-life-post4947.html#post4947)
It's upside down.

Originally Posted by Thom Walker http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/images/ca_evo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/953-outlet-just-outside-its-life-post4997.html#post4997)
Tim,
It's right side up.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb029.gif

Lou Collier

05-09-2007, 04:27 PM

Actually, there is a good reason to install the ground hole up. All of the outlets in my house are installed that way.

Rick Hurst

05-09-2007, 04:43 PM

Same here Lou.

I actually heard at a seminar that NEC was wanting them to be installed with the ground on the top in 2008 or 09.

Jerry Peck

05-09-2007, 05:48 PM

There is a better reason to install them with the ground down.

This debate has been going on since the addition of that third prong ... ground on top or on the bottom, people give good reasons for both, but I buy the one with the ground down better.

Victor DaGraca

05-09-2007, 06:07 PM

[quote=Thom Walker;5014]Coed Check has already be reeducated. Your fancy-schmancy "convention" is doomed.

Rise up Ground, Rise up!

Can I join that "coed check" organization?

Tim Moreira

05-09-2007, 06:54 PM

Jerry,

There is a better reason to install them with the ground down.

I prefer them with the ground down, however at the hospital I work at I have seen may a times where the outlet was installed ground down with a metal cover plate. (Almost all of the plates are metal, not my call)

Don't ask me how or why, but, when the center screw backs it's self out and falls to the ground, (this happens more than you might think) and then the next unsuspecting person comes along and goes to plug something in and they bump the outlet as they insert the plug, BOOOOOOM. The metal cover plate falls across the hot and neutral and scares the crap out of the person doing it and trips the breaker. :eek:

If the ground was up, that would not happen.

Not good in a patients room.

Thom Walker

05-09-2007, 07:30 PM

[quote=Thom Walker;5014]Coed Check has already be reeducated. Your fancy-schmancy "convention" is doomed.

Rise up Ground, Rise up!

Can I join that "coed check" organization?

Send your credit card and pin# and you can. Hell, I'll throw in lifetime membership in the NCE with it. But a prerequisite is NOGUTS certification.

Lou Collier

05-09-2007, 07:50 PM

There is a better reason to install them with the ground down.

Not sure I would say it is a "better" reason. A "different" reason, perhaps.

Lou Collier

05-09-2007, 07:53 PM

Tim, just wondered why you say you prefer the ground down when you have first hand experience with the hazards of installing the outlet so the prongs can short out?

Tim Moreira

05-09-2007, 08:01 PM

Two reasons:

1. I have plastic cover plates in my home.

2. They look kooler. :D

James Duffin

05-09-2007, 08:02 PM

The standard in my area on new construction is that if you see a ground hole up it is controled by a wall switch. Good idea I think..

Usually the bottom is always hot....only the top is switched.

Jerry Peck

05-09-2007, 08:03 PM

There is a better reason to install them with the ground down.

Not sure I would say it is a "better" reason. A "different" reason, perhaps.

Not *just different* - BETTER! :D

Ever notice that the ground pin is L-O-N-G-E-R than the others? That's so it comes out L-A-S-T. So whatever is plugged in stays "grounded" until *after* it is no longer energized.

With the ground at the top, you will loose the ground while the equipment *IS STILL ENERGIZED* (Tim! :eek: )

The way to address the cover plate screws falling out is to, as they fall out, put a little bit of thread lock (many brands - LokTite is one) on the screw to keep it in. There are many types of thread lock, removable (binds, but not tight - I think it needs less fiber :) ), semi-permanent which resists vibration but can be removed with limited difficulty), and permanent - you do not get them back out, at least not easily - that is kinda like using super glue on the screw threads - really binds it up ... no fiber in that diet at all :D ).

Don't forget, *never* use a nylon screw (which also resists backing out to a degree) as *metal plates are required to be grounded*, and that *metal* cover plate screw grounds the cover plate to the strap (which already IS grounded, or had better be grounded).

Jack Feldmann

05-09-2007, 08:37 PM

Ever notice that the ground pin is L-O-N-G-E-R than the others? That's so it comes out L-A-S-T. So whatever is plugged in stays "grounded" until *after* it is no longer energized.

With the ground at the top, you will loose the ground while the equipment *IS STILL ENERGIZED* (Tim! )

I can't really tell how many of you are serious. If the ground pin is longer, it is still longer no matter the orientation, up or down. How about the outlets that are installed sideways? Should the ground be on the left or the right? What about floor outlets? Should the ground face the front of the house?, rear? mecca?
JF

Tim Moreira

05-09-2007, 08:41 PM

Jack,

"If the ground pin is longer, it is still longer no matter the orientation, up or down."

I was kinda thinking the same thing, but thought Jerry was just kidding in his last post.

Jerry Peck

05-09-2007, 08:44 PM

I can't really tell how many of you are serious.

I *AM* serious.

If the ground pin is longer, it is still longer no matter the orientation, up or down.

Yes.

With the ground pin on top, it pulls out first. With the ground pin on the bottom, it pulls out last.

Have you ever looked an a plug which is partially pulled out by the cord? The ground (on the bottom) is still in, the two other prongs are partially out. It *is still* grounded.

How about the outlets that are installed sideways? Should the ground be on the left or the right?

Now you are not being serious, right? :)

It would not matter as far as 'the ground' goes, but it would matter as far as 'the hot' goes. :D

What about floor outlets? Should the ground face the front of the house?, rear? mecca?
JF

I'd say ... ummmm ... the ground prong should face ... DOWN! :p

Tim Moreira

05-09-2007, 08:55 PM

Sorry Jerry,

"Have you ever looked an a plug which is partially pulled out by the cord? The ground (on the bottom) is still in, the two other prongs are partially out. It *is still* grounded."

I don't buy that one.

Up or down, the ground pin is still longer and will still be in the plug last.

Since the ground is longer you will not get the same amount of bend down in the plug as you would with a two pin plug. Not to the point were the plug still has the hot and neutral still in but the ground is completely out. No way it's gonna bend that much. Not without breaking something.

Jerry Peck

05-09-2007, 08:59 PM

"Have you ever looked an a plug which is partially pulled out by the cord? The ground (on the bottom) is still in, the two other prongs are partially out. It *is still* grounded."

I don't buy that one.

Up or down, the ground pin is still longer and will still be in the plug last.

Try it.

The ground DOES come out first when the plug is pulled out as a cord would pull it out - 'down', not 'out' like a person would pull it out.

Tim Moreira

05-09-2007, 09:03 PM

Thom Walker

05-09-2007, 09:20 PM

Tim,
Just a few memberships left. Do I smell a conversion? :)

I need a slogan for this movement. Somehow, "Let's get Ground Up" isn't getting my message across.

Richard Rushing

05-09-2007, 09:21 PM

Jerry,

I just tried it.

There is no way I can angle the plug so that the two pins are making contact without the ground making contact too.

I think that is part of the reason the ground pin *is* as long as it is.:rolleyes:

I agree with that accesssment... You have to push the plug down and REALLY try to angle as much and as hard as you can to try and get the ground out first-- doesent work.

The reason for having the ground on the top (on the inside outlet receptacles) is pretty obvious. If the plug is partially pulled out, a falling metal object landing across the ground won't energize the metal object. However, with a partially pulled plug and the receptacle is oriented to recieve the ground on the bottom, then a falling metal object lying across the hot/ neutral and become energized.:eek:

Rich

Tim Moreira

05-09-2007, 09:28 PM

Richard,

"The reason for having the ground on the top (on the inside outlet receptacles) is pretty obvious. If the plug is partially pulled out, a falling metal object landing across the ground won't energize the metal object. However, with a partially pulled plug and the receptacle is oriented to recieve the ground on the bottom, then a falling metal object lying across the hot/ neutral and become energized.:eek: "

That sounds vaguely familiar. :D

Jerry,

I prefer them with the ground down, however at the hospital I work at I have seen may a times where the outlet was installed ground down with a metal cover plate. (Almost all of the plates are metal, not my call)

Don't ask me how or why, but, when the center screw backs it's self out and falls to the ground, (this happens more than you might think) and then the next unsuspecting person comes along and goes to plug something in and they bump the outlet as they insert the plug, BOOOOOOM. The metal cover plate falls across the hot and neutral and scares the crap out of the person doing it and trips the breaker. :eek:

If the ground was up, that would not happen.

Not good in a patients room.

Jerry Peck

05-10-2007, 05:24 AM

I've done it before.

Tell you want, try this:

Wire a metal cabinet appliance up so the hot coming in is intentionally connected to the cabinet, stand barefoot on a wet concrete floor, then, holding on to the appliance, try removing the plug such that the ground will not lose contact first.

Any takers? :D

Of course it's not leaking, it's not raining - that applies here too.

Of course you 'know' you could not make the plug lose ground contact first, there was nothing to let you 'know' when you did. :cool:

Bob White

05-10-2007, 05:41 AM

OK, I'm convinced! Ground up....

I just went to the big box store to buy some of the "ground up" receptacles, but all they had were the "ground down" type. :eek:

Where do I get the special "ground ups"??:confused:

Tim Moreira

05-10-2007, 09:25 AM

I don't know Jerry...I guess my ground plug is a little longer than yours.

:D

I'm calling Mythbusters on this one.

Thom Walker

05-10-2007, 10:19 AM

Thom Walker

05-10-2007, 03:46 PM

I forgot. Lennox is on our team.

Mike Schulz

05-14-2007, 05:50 AM

I vote ground up. I installled all mine that way.

Now the question being is on a two prong, do you want the hot leg on the left or right? :rolleyes:

Jack Feldmann

05-14-2007, 08:17 AM

Jeff,
This was in a workshop that was under the front porch in a very tall crawlspace. Kind of a bomb shelter. The room was maybe 10'x10' with a 7' ceiling, all concrete. It did have a door that opened out into the crawlspace, but it was probably left open most of the time.
JF

Bob Stark

05-14-2007, 08:18 AM

I say all prongs, after having been correctly measured (ahem) should face East.

I'm up for coed check !!

Slogan: "Have Grounds Will Travel" :cool:

......... you guys are hilarious !

Thom Walker

05-14-2007, 01:30 PM

Mike's my new best friend. I've never had anyone agree with me before. Hey, Mike. Wnna send your credit card? The Cerifications are ready.:)

Jerry Peck

05-14-2007, 04:30 PM

Thom,

I hope you wrote up that cord on the Lennox.

Not because it is upside down :) , but because it should not be used for that use (not approved for use for fixed equipment like that).

Besides, I don't see an upside down plug ... ??????? :confused: :D

Tim Moreira

05-14-2007, 09:29 PM

Now the building is upside down!

:D

Thom Walker

05-14-2007, 10:23 PM

Jerry,
That cord and plug was the best part of the system. Why would I write it up? An HVAC specialist installed it. It must be okay. I'm an HI. :)

What were those cords made for? Every time I see them they're on something they're not supposed to be on. They've got to be good for something because the ground is in the correct position

imported_John Smith

05-15-2007, 05:27 PM

Did the house have a pool? I have seen lots of corroded metal in areas where people store their pool supplies.

Dan Phillips

05-15-2007, 10:37 PM

sigh....... I can't belive there are 20 somthing post on ground up ground down.

Richard Rushing

05-16-2007, 04:38 AM

Wait til the thread on; "How to screw in a light bulb".... that sucker goes on forever.

Or better yet, the proper way of testing a garage door opener.:mad: That one gets ugly.

RR

Jack Feldmann

05-16-2007, 04:39 AM

No pool at the house.

Thom Walker

05-16-2007, 09:03 AM

Dan,
And don't evvvvvvver say subpanel unless you really, really mean it.:D

By the way, I haven't received your credit card yet.

Mike Schulz

05-16-2007, 12:11 PM

The Cerifications are ready.:)

By GoLLY!

"I've never been certified before"

Now how do I get my masters?

:p

Thom Walker

05-16-2007, 12:16 PM

I am setting up an office in Nigeria and will send details on the Masters soon. As I know your time is valuable, please locate your Deed of Trust now. :D

Mike Schulz

05-16-2007, 12:32 PM

Thom,
I was just looking at your profile. What exactly does this mean..........6.5 grandchildren :confused:

Thom Walker

05-16-2007, 01:09 PM

My youngest is "in the condition" and after 6 grandsons (not any from her), come September, I'll finally have a Grand Daughter. I'll have to remember to change the profile.

Mike Schulz

05-16-2007, 04:52 PM

Congrats!
I am going to be a first time Grand father this June........A girl :) .......Man I'm getting old :(

Oh I forgot I'm in the South........It's Pa Pa
I from up North and It was Grand Father or Grand Dad

K Robertson

05-18-2007, 06:52 PM

Ok, I must really be tired, because I laughed my butt off from some of these posts. I say all outlets should be removed and replaced with european 2 prong 220V outlets. I know we don't have compatible service, but who cares, it will answer the question of "which way is up". So I'm reporting all recepticles from now on! :D

Thom, remind me to say congrats in September and send you a fat cuban (cigar that is).

Thom Walker

05-18-2007, 07:37 PM

Okay, Mike. Here's the secret to Grand parenting. Spoil the S*** out of them, do whatever you want to, then send them home. Wait a reasonable amount of time, then do it again. If your kids say anything about it, tell stories about them when they were little. Be sure the grand kids are around when you tell the stories. All the fun, none of the responsibility. What a gig!

K,
Your on. YOu can come down for the "somebody finally gave me a girl" party. We can smoke it on the deck and maybe catch one or two.