Cutler-Hammer Clipper Power System (surge protector) inside a service panel

[Tom Edwards]

Is this placement and connection correct?
A surge protector nestled behind a service cable and connected to the two terminals on the 30A breaker serving a clothes dryer.
By appearance, it seems that this equipment should be mounted outside the enclosure.
Anyone?

[Jim Luttrall]

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/1428-what.html

Try this link for past info on the same type set-up.
The surge protector manufacturer will dictate how and where it can be installed, but you can't connect it to just any ol' breaker, the breaker would have to be listed for multiple conductors.

[Jerry Peck]

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/1428-what.html

Try this link for past info on the same type set-up.


Not "the same set-up" at all.

The thread in the link was for one which was (one of the very few too) installed outside the panel like they are supposed to be.

The one in this thread is not, it is inside the panel, very incorrectly. See that threaded hub and those lock nuts? That threaded hub should be sticking in from outside the panel enclosure, with the device outside the panel and the wires inside the panel, the lock nuts hold it in place to the knock out.

[Tom Edwards]

Thanks, Jerry.
I remembered that there was discussion about these devices before.
I cannot find any info on this particular device online.

[Tom Edwards]

The other question is whether the copper, stranded conductors attached to the protector should be attached to the clothes dryer breaker terminals.
Is that ok?

[Jerry Peck]

Is that ok?

Nope.

[Tom Edwards]

Can you explain to me why?

[Jim Luttrall]

Not "the same set-up" at all.

The thread in the link was for one which was (one of the very few too) installed outside the panel like they are supposed to be.

The one in this thread is not, it is inside the panel, very incorrectly. See that threaded hub and those lock nuts? That threaded hub should be sticking in from outside the panel enclosure, with the device outside the panel and the wires inside the panel, the lock nuts hold it in place to the knock out.

Now Jerry, you have been accusing others of not reading what what written and then mis-quoting...

I said to "Try this link for past info on the same type set-up"
I did not say it was the same set-up, but the same type set-up (meaning it was a panel mounted surge protector.) I did not say that either was correct or incorrect, just directed him to a link with information (which covered most of what was said and will be said about the subject.)

Chill Jerry, I know Tony has you rattled and all, but save the nit-picking for when it really matters:D

[Jerry Peck]

Now Jerry, you have been accusing others of not reading what what written and then mis-quoting...

I said to "Try this link for past info on the same type set-up"

Jim,

But it is not the same type set-up, not once you linked to that thread.


I did not say it was the same set-up, but the same type set-up (meaning it was a panel mounted surge protector.)

That thread showed a type set-up which was mounted through the exterior of the enclosure, as it should have been, and the thread discussed the connections, wire length, etc.

The type set-up shown in the photo here was of an interior mounted unit, and, by referencing that thread, which discussed the wiring of it, the installation of it was by-passed.

The installation of the one in this thread is all wrong, which would not have been discerned from reading the thread you linked to.

I do thank you for linking to that other thread, as it did cover the important aspects of how they should be wired to the panel.


I did not say that either was correct or incorrect, just directed him to a link with information (which covered most of what was said and will be said about the subject.)

Except for the mounting of it, which, in this instance with the unit inside the panel, is most critical and 'most wrong'.


Chill Jerry, I know Tony has you rattled and all, but save the nit-picking for when it really matters:D

Tony doesn't have me rattled, I'm just exhausted thinking that a home inspector could know that little, and be so passionate about knowing so little. :rolleyes:

[Jerry Peck]

Can you explain to me why?

Those conductors make the breaker multiple tapped. And that is not allowed.

Here are a couple a quick tips on how to spot that as not to being made to be mounted *in* the panel enclosure (without getting into all the technical reasons why).

The first give-a-way on that unit, that it is not to be mounted inside the panel, are those cable TV connectors - no way would you want to, or should you, run the cable TV cable INTO the panel, which means that unit must be outside.

The second give-a-way is the threaded hub, that goes through a knockout and in held in place with lock nuts.

[Tom Edwards]

Thanks.
I also was wondering how the device would work well attached to a 240V breaker rather than at the main lugs.
Any comment?

[Jerry Peck]

I also was wondering how the device would work well attached to a 240V breaker rather than at the main lugs.
Any comment?

Being as you would need to drill and tap the main bus bar with an approved terminal kit from the manufacturer in the approved way - to avoid going through a breaker or molded case switch, going through a breaker or molded case switch is the normal way.

However, being as the breakers and molded case switches are not really listed and labeled for that use ... the manufacturers of panels make their own plug-in models which replace two breakers and plug directly onto the bus bars.

You would probably get slightly better action of protection being connected to the main lugs (because there are fewer resistive points between the surge protector and the surge device), but ... your connection would likely be worse, resulting an a greater potential for complete failure of protection.

It is best to use the manufacturers' breaker-like plug-in units.

[Tom Edwards]

Thanks, Jerry.
That is what I was looking for and you explained it well.
I will pass the info on to my client.

I haven't been able to find installation specifications for this device so far.
If anyone has a link it would be appreciated.
Having a spec sheet from the mfg. is a strong rebuttal against a stubborn electrical contractor.

Thanks again.

[Jerry Peck]

I haven't been able to find installation specifications for this device so far.

That panel does not look like a Cutler-Hammer panel, is it?

If not, the manufacturer of that panel is not going to have their panels listed and labeled for a Cutler-Hammer device in it.

No need to track down the installation instructions on that surge device ... 110.3(B) ... required to installed and used in accordance with its listing and labeling, and that panel is not going to say it is okay to put that device in there. 110.3(B) also applies to that device, if the electrician states it is okay - have HIM prove it, HE is the one who needs to show that it is ...

(underlining is mine)
- 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
- - (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

It is up to HIM to show the HE "installed" it "in accordance with" its instructions.

[Jim Luttrall]

From the referenced link

Plus, they are required to be installed mounted outside the enclosure, like that one is.




The type set-up shown in the photo here was of an interior mounted unit, and, by referencing that thread, which discussed the wiring of it, the installation of it was by-passed.


Jerry, you forgot what you wrote;)

[Jerry Peck]

Jerry, you forgot what you wrote;)


Me bad. :o

Sorry, I guess ... I should have re-read that post entirely ... like someone (who was it ;) ) just said I should have ... some guy named 'Jim' ... :p :o