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  1. #1
    Rudolf Reusse's Avatar
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    Default Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    One reason why I have publicly raised more than once my concern about Mr. Gromickoís marketing concept is - that I believe that his NACHI creation is simply not a trade association as claimed - but only another type of "Diploma Mill" with a different twist.

    According to NACHIís published statistics - more than 80,000 individuals have allegedly tried to take advantage of his offer to become a "NACHI Certified" Home Inspector" by clicking a computer mouse within the comfort of their living rooms.

    Consequently many of these "wannabe home inspectors" who have flooded now the Canadian marketplace are obviously convinced that the obtained "NACHI Designation" is an endorsement of their competence - and/or entitlement to carry out property inspections. As a result countless of these "wannabe professionals" are now offering their services in my neighbourhood by undercutting the generally accepted fees charged by established home inspectors for years.

    One can only hope that the downturn in real estate activities - last month we had in Toronto about another 33% drop in sales - will eventually force at least some of these "fast-track educated practitioners" to fade into the sunset.

    RUDOLF REUSSE - Home Inspector since
    1976 - TORONTO



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  2. #2
    Joseph P. Hagarty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    "RUDOLF REUSSE - Home Inspector since 1976 - TORONTO"


    A Home Inspector for 32 years and you feel your Business is threatened by NACHI?

    Take a look at your own Business Plan & Marketing.
    It is more about what you are doing to your own business if you feel that you can no longer compete in the marketplace......


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Rudolf

    Thats pretty much my findings too. Unfortunately the same could be said of OAHI and CAHPI members. I have seem some pretty low prices from their members as well.

    This market will take care of the newbies and their low, low pricing. The market will do that which no association is or wanting to do, cull the members, part timers and an abundance of cheapo's.

    Cheers,


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Rudolf

    Don't give those newbies that kind of credit.

    When business is slow, they cut their prices back to a minimum to just grab a check. Most of them will fall through the cracks the first year of their business.

    Anytime the business world starts cutting jobs, the home inspection industry seems to load up with newbies. If they only investigated the real estate market before they jumped in, they would maybe take up the "locksmith" or the "carpet cleaning" career also posted in those cheap commercials on the television.

    I own a home, I could be a HI.
    I've actually had people tell me that line while I'm on a job.

    Don't get your blood pressure up about it. Let the waves wash them out.

    rick


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post

    Don't get your blood pressure up about it. Let the waves wash them out.

    rick
    And as they say in Alabama Roll Tide!!!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  6. #6
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Every time the wind blows a new inspector hits the offices of the real estate company with a flyer. Call me for fast service and a good price.
    some will call. and if the guy is good at Inspecting then he will stick but if he suck then by by sucker.

    If its NACHI, ASHI, or whom ever. its the inspector not the association.

    Heck you get a guy like me and some agents ask me if i am a member of so and so.
    I like to say. well i have been inspecting homes before any of these association ever were... what is the point of the association but that if an inspector gets information, or help he can look at videos for training all the better, information on schools find other inspectors i his area for help cool. But nothing like just hitting the books getting in and doing the work...

    Thats my 2 cents.

    Best

    Ron


  7. #7

    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    This truly describes the state of our economy.


    YouTube - Real Estate Downfall


  8. #8
    Kevin Luce's Avatar
    Kevin Luce Guest

    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Rudolf Reusse View Post
    One reason why I have publicly raised more than once my concern about Mr. Gromickoís marketing concept is - that I believe that his NACHI creation is simply not a trade association as claimed - but only another type of "Diploma Mill" with a different twist.

    According to NACHIís published statistics - more than 80,000 individuals have allegedly tried to take advantage of his offer to become a "NACHI Certified" Home Inspector" by clicking a computer mouse within the comfort of their living rooms.

    Consequently many of these "wannabe home inspectors" who have flooded now the Canadian marketplace are obviously convinced that the obtained "NACHI Designation" is an endorsement of their competence - and/or entitlement to carry out property inspections. As a result countless of these "wannabe professionals" are now offering their services in my neighbourhood by undercutting the generally accepted fees charged by established home inspectors for years.

    One can only hope that the downturn in real estate activities - last month we had in Toronto about another 33% drop in sales - will eventually force at least some of these "fast-track educated practitioners" to fade into the sunset.

    RUDOLF REUSSE - Home Inspector since 1976 - TORONTO
    Wow, things are bad up there if you have so many home buyers that are looking at price only.

    I've been around long enough that I have enough referrals from previous clients and Realtors. Around here, most of the time it's not the price that gets them upset, it's the amount of messages they have to leave before they finally call a company that answer the phone. From the feed back we have gotten, the four reasons they went with us (when they were not referred) was they liked our website, they liked what we offered, we were professional on the phone and that they didn't have to leave a message. Price of the inspection wasn't in the top 5 reason.

    I'm not sure why people get upset when somebody else can sell their services at a cheaper rate. I see it done all the time around here. At this time there is a few companies that are offering $50.00 off an inspection. Another home inspection company is offering free WDI inspection with each home inspection. And another company is offering a free 90 day appliance warranty. There was not one HI organization that stands out when it comes to the companies that offer extras/discounts.

    It sound like you look at NACHI members like you would at Walmart (cheaper and poor quality). But yet look how big Walmart is and how many people love shopping there.


  9. #9
    William DeVries's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Rudolf Reusse View Post
    One reason why I have publicly raised more than once my concern about Mr. Gromicko’s marketing concept is - that I believe that his NACHI creation is simply not a trade association as claimed - but only another type of "Diploma Mill" with a different twist.

    According to NACHI’s published statistics - more than 80,000 individuals have allegedly tried to take advantage of his offer to become a "NACHI Certified" Home Inspector" by clicking a computer mouse within the comfort of their living rooms.

    Consequently many of these "wannabe home inspectors" who have flooded now the Canadian marketplace are obviously convinced that the obtained "NACHI Designation" is an endorsement of their competence - and/or entitlement to carry out property inspections. As a result countless of these "wannabe professionals" are now offering their services in my neighbourhood by undercutting the generally accepted fees charged by established home inspectors for years.

    One can only hope that the downturn in real estate activities - last month we had in Toronto about another 33% drop in sales - will eventually force at least some of these "fast-track educated practitioners" to fade into the sunset.

    RUDOLF REUSSE - Home Inspector since
    1976 - TORONTO

    Rudolf What Association do you belong to ?
    At last guess there were approximatly 1200 inspectors in Ontario
    400 Nachi
    600 OAHI
    200 in afilliated,
    this could mean that there not even looking for Nachi there just doing it part time because they can, because they DO NOT NEED ANYTHING TO DO AN INSPECTION.
    Lets look at the real facts, anyone can say today I'll be a home inspector in Canada, I've been in the trades for years , I own a home, I fix my home, I get calls to help friends so why not get paid for it.

    Truly I think this is more the reason. 3 months ago there were around 15 inspectors in Kingston, The other day I counted 35 brochures, I can asure you 20 of them are not nachi nor oahi, Independents, like yourself, they just started in the business, and yes there cheap 199.00 because there wife works for the government or is a nurse or what ever go job that we have oodles of here. My friend this is just the begining it will get alot worse before the sun shines again, they have backup suga mommas, we do not.

    I wish you all the best


  10. #10
    William DeVries's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Rudolf

    Thats pretty much my findings too. Unfortunately the same could be said of OAHI and CAHPI members. I have seem some pretty low prices from their members as well.

    This market will take care of the newbies and their low, low pricing. The market will do that which no association is or wanting to do, cull the members, part timers and an abundance of cheapo's.

    Cheers,
    Ray;
    I think your close to what will happen later on, just wish there could be a way to get it sooner


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    William

    The current economic climate will be a watershed event. I know my business is down significantly over last year, and my minimum fee is $425.

    Cheers,


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Having been around longer than most all I can say is the market place along with our legal system eventually culls out both the incompetent and the low bidders in both the construction and inspection industries. (they're usually the same)
    However, the sad fact is that while they're active they impact the reputation of everybody in those industries and I don't mean positively. Licensing is no cure and the only way folks will become aware of how to determine quality is through self education in the market place. On the other hand who can one believe when even our government lies to us? As P.T. Burnham once proclaimed; "put your confidence in a real confidence man." I've seen my share of those folks, especially in this business, but we won't go there.


    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Jerry

    The incompetent also tend to burn a lot of people (clients) on their path of self destruction.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Raymound, Agree !

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  15. #15
    Russel Ray's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Diversify. I have various types of services (commonly called "inspections" or "home inspections") for different people with different needs/goals/wants because of their different circumstances. I charge differently for those different services. For example, December 2008 pricing on a 1,750-SF SFR ranges from $299 to $2,999. The number of inspections I sell of each type is a perfect bell curve, meaning that I sell as many $299 inspections as I do $2,999 inspections. Most of my 1,750-SF SFR are at $699. Services are priced according to the time it takes me to drive there, provide services, and write a report, with the intent being on earning a minimum of $100 per hour gross.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Russel
    In all due respect if you believe 100 dollars "gross" per hour will make you a decent living you obviously have no clue as to your overhead costs. Unfortunately that's not unique in the real estate inspection industry. Brian has put together a brilliant article on just that subject. You really should read it.


    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  17. #17
    Kevin Luce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Russel
    In all due respect if you believe 100 dollars "gross" per hour will make you a decent living you obviously have no clue as to your overhead costs. Unfortunately that's not unique in the real estate inspection industry. Brian has put together a brilliant article on just that subject. You really should read it.
    Wow! How much do you charge per hour "gross" to do a standard home inspection?


  18. #18
    Russel Ray's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Russel
    In all due respect if you believe 100 dollars "gross" per hour will make you a decent living you obviously have no clue as to your overhead costs. Unfortunately that's not unique in the real estate inspection industry. Brian has put together a brilliant article on just that subject. You really should read it.
    Thanks for the advice, Jerry, but I'm doing quite well. Perhaps you have no idea of my overhead costs, eh?


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    This thread is a perfect example of an unregulated industry. Let buyer beware!

    I firmly believe the that this industry needs regulation (yEK!, not my favorite subject) the same a any "Professional" service, ie: lawyers, licensed engineers, commercial pilots, physicians, etc., etc.

    Without regulation you'll have a lot of inexperienced - low balling people that not only cut the competition but they short change the public and ultimately provide a dis-service to all.

    Why are so many of us against licensing?? (SORRY ABOUT THIS - HOT TOPIC!!)


  20. #20
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Ah shut up... Don't need no stinking regulation.....

    Sorry that just my 2 cents.

    Best

    Ron


  21. #21
    Kevin Luce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Amelin View Post
    This thread is a perfect example of an unregulated industry. Let buyer beware!

    I firmly believe the that this industry needs regulation (yEK!, not my favorite subject) the same a any "Professional" service, ie: lawyers, licensed engineers, commercial pilots, physicians, etc., etc.

    Without regulation you'll have a lot of inexperienced - low balling people that not only cut the competition but they short change the public and ultimately provide a dis-service to all.

    Why are so many of us against licensing?? (SORRY ABOUT THIS - HOT TOPIC!!)

    Yet we go into a house and discover improper installation/repairs done by the people that are licensed.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Kevin, exactly my point! Has licensing really ever increased performance in anything?

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  23. #23
    Joseph P. Hagarty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Luce View Post
    Yet we go into a house and discover improper installation/repairs done by the people that are licensed.
    And in Pennsylvania, The ASHI Licensing Model Fanatics want to License Home Inspectors with a requirement that we defer noted deficiencies to Unlicensed, Untrained, Uninsured Contractors / Builders for further review....


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Up here you have to be licenced to be a hairdresser/barber but home inspectors are not are not licenced. I have had some great haircuts and terrible haircuts.


  25. #25
    Joseph P. Hagarty's Avatar
    Joseph P. Hagarty Guest

    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    In Pennsylvania, Barbers and hairdressers are also required to be licensed.

    However; Home Builders, Roofers, Plumbers, Electricians, HVAC Contractors, etc... are not required to be trained, licensed or insured.


  26. #26
    John McKenna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    InterNACHI is responsible for collapse of the home inspection industry... yeah right... LOL.

    I also hear they were responsible for crop circles....not.


  27. #27
    Kevin Luce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Kevin, exactly my point! Has licensing really ever increased performance in anything?
    Compare to not being licensed, I hope the answer is yes with the required schooling, testing and continue education that is normally required. I hope you can never prove it different.

    I would hate to see a 18 year old kid start wiring a house without the requirements of being licensed.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy
    Kevin, exactly my point! Has licensing really ever increased performance in anything?


    To suggest that the Home Inspection industry is better off unregulated or that we should not be licensed seems hypocritical and not very professional.

    After all, the service we perform and get paid to do is identify issues in the home that have not met regulations or codes. Do you also think that homes should be allowed to be built without regulations or by people without licenses?

    We can always point to things that are exception, and find people that are licensed and donít perform, but do you really think that the Home Inspection industry would be better of without any regulations or allowed to be performed by people that donít meet certain standards?




  29. #29
    David Nice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Amelin View Post
    [/color]

    To suggest that the Home Inspection industry is better off unregulated or that we should not be licensed seems hypocritical and not very professional.

    After all, the service we perform and get paid to do is identify issues in the home that have not met regulations or codes. Do you also think that homes should be allowed to be built without regulations or by people without licenses?

    We can always point to things that are exception, and find people that are licensed and donít perform, but do you really think that the Home Inspection industry would be better of without any regulations or allowed to be performed by people that donít meet certain standards?


    There is no room for people to have honest discussions about the pros and cons of regulating home inspectors when those who think differently are called
    "hypocritical and not very professional". Doing so is a reflection on you and has nothing to do with the discussion.

    If you want people to consider your opinions, I suggest you dispense with the name calling and have a serious discussion. I live and work in a "
    licensed" state and it seems that there are an abundance of inspectors who passed the required exams and know the minimum requirements, yet still work at or below those standards.

    Some inspectors in our state seem to make things up as they go along and miss so many things that it is surprising that they continue to show up at the correct addresses without someone holding their hand.

    I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I can sure see a lot of negative results coming from licensing in a number of states.



  30. #30
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    What? Ken is not allowed to have an opinion? Name calling? Honest discussion? What do you think this thread is? The discussion has been honest and there has been no name calling. It sure seems you have an opinion, and thats a good thing. Everyone should have an opinion.

    Personally I thought Kens opinions were very valid and poignant.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by David Nice View Post

    there are an abundance of inspectors who passed the required exams and know the minimum requirements, yet still work at or below those standards.

    Some inspectors in our state seem to make things up as they go along and miss so many things that it is surprising that they continue to show up at the correct addresses without someone holding their hand.

    [/FONT] [/SIZE][/FONT] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    Sounds like your state has problems. What was it like before licensing?


  32. #32
    David Nice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harris View Post
    Sounds like your state has problems. What was it like before licensing?
    Dan,

    I don't think we have more or less problems than most other states. The stories that come up do not seem to favor any state in particular.I moved away from Wisconsin for 20+ years and only returned in 98'.

    Having been briefed by a number of inspectors who were around when licensing came about, it was the Realtors that pushed for licensing inspectors as a way of passing liability for missed "defects" on to the inspectors so they would stop being sued. Most inspectors (at the time) tried to fight it, but it was like a runaway train and the best they could do is fight to keep out any unreasonable regulation.

    Some inspectors supported licensing from the start, but I heard that most of them looked at licensing as a way to limit competition.


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    ...and therein lies the problem, the Realtors hijacked the process after all they have the bucks and the numbers and lobbying team. In my opinion; as a result and echoed by many who are in licenced states, relate similar stories. Obviously that is not the fair and proper way, but now that the dye has been cast how do you change it. Live with bad legislation?

    Cheers,


  34. #34
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by David Nice View Post
    Dan,

    I heard that most of them looked at licensing as a way to limit competition.
    I think the market is doing a great job of limiting the completion

    What was it Scott post some 300 Inspector are off the books in his state this year.

    Best

    Ron


  35. #35
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Up here we have licenced barbers and hairdressers, electricians, plumbers, I don't see the competition being weeded out, what I see is the competition offering better value, better service, those that cannot compete weed themselves out. Licencing up here has not stopped or stifled any competition. I am not quite sure I understand the concept of licencing hindering competition.


  36. #36
    Russel Ray's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Up here we have licenced barbers and hairdressers, electricians, plumbers, I don't see the competition being weeded out, what I see is the competition offering better value, better service, those that cannot compete weed themselves out. Licencing up here has not stopped or stifled any competition. I am not quite sure I understand the concept of licencing hindering competition.
    The concept of licensing hindering competition comes about because it throws up another barrier to entry. The more barriers you can throw up, the less the competition, in theory. It worked for me because, having been a Realtor many decades ago in Texas, I wanted to be a Realtor and own my own brokerage in California. Big, big difference. Texas had no barriers to entry other than passing the state real estate exam. In California I would not only have had to pass the state real estate exam, but then I would have had to work for someone else for 18 months, and then I would have had to pass the state broker's real estate exam. With home inspections, I just got $60,000 together and started doing marketing and, voila!, I had a successful home inspection business, and still going strong. So the time fram and two exams were enough of a barrier to entry for me becomeing a Realtor. There was no barrier to entry at all for me becoming a home inspector.


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Our State for almost a year now requires you to be certified/licensed to inspect septic systems to protect the public. They have yet to set any type of rules or inspecting protocols. So the rip offs that use to just walk the field and say "yep" she's good can still get away with it. Yes, License seems to be a money racket but it still helps to protect people from being ripped off.

    You all have seen drive by home inspectors. With lic. you at least have to follow the SOP and do the minimum. Before License people where not even getting that. The reports sucked if they even got one.

    There is two sides to the coin but overall best intentions are trying to be met even though they are not there yet.

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
    www.houseinspections.com

  38. #38
    Brian Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Licensing or no licensing? It all depends on how fair or unfair the licensing requirements appear to be to the HI! Licensing can be good and it can be bad depending on how you look at it.

    For example, in Ohio there is currently a bill in the senate(that will probably pass) that will require licensing! Licensing is ok by me if it is deemed fair for all parties involved. However, this isnt necessarily the case in this bill. One loophole in this licensing is that it will allow a home inspector to perform repairs on any home inspected right away. That goes against ASHI and the other organizations SOP. Typically, we are not allowed to perform any repairs for up to a year. This helps decrease the shady practice of deliberately overstating a defect in order to get extra money from the client to "perform" the repair yourself.

    What worries us here in ohio is that contractors looking for extra business will "become home inspectors" in order to find defects and then sell their services to the client. If there is a bigger example of conflict of interest, Id like to hear it!


  39. #39
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    "If there is a bigger example of conflict of interest, Id like to hear it!"

    Duping the public into believing that someone is qualified, by giving a title of "Certified Inspector" (or some variation) when the inspector has little or no qualifications execpt that they sent in money to be certified.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  40. #40
    Kevin Luce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Thomas View Post
    Licensing or no licensing? It all depends on how fair or unfair the licensing requirements appear to be to the HI! Licensing can be good and it can be bad depending on how you look at it.

    For example, in Ohio there is currently a bill in the senate(that will probably pass) that will require licensing! Licensing is ok by me if it is deemed fair for all parties involved. However, this isnt necessarily the case in this bill. One loophole in this licensing is that it will allow a home inspector to perform repairs on any home inspected right away. That goes against ASHI and the other organizations SOP. Typically, we are not allowed to perform any repairs for up to a year. This helps decrease the shady practice of deliberately overstating a defect in order to get extra money from the client to "perform" the repair yourself.

    What worries us here in ohio is that contractors looking for extra business will "become home inspectors" in order to find defects and then sell their services to the client. If there is a bigger example of conflict of interest, Id like to hear it!
    It's done all the time around here when it comes to many other trades. When I was in a heating and cooling company (before home inspectors were used), I don't know how many times I inspected the furnace and air conditioner for a real estate sale then went back to repaired it. Same with WDI inspections, there are a lot of companies that inspect for, then give a bid to treat for wood destroying insects.

    Overall I do agree with you but it's done all the time and if that was allowed here in the state of Indiana, it would be likely that I would have to look at the way I ran my business differently.


  41. #41
    Brian Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    "If there is a bigger example of conflict of interest, Id like to hear it!"

    Duping the public into believing that someone is qualified, by giving a title of "Certified Inspector" (or some variation) when the inspector has little or no qualifications execpt that they sent in money to be certified.
    Im not sure how that qualifies as a conflict of interest!

    If a state requires licensing, then we have little choice but to get licensed if we want to be a HI.


  42. #42
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    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    "Duping the public into believing that someone is qualified, by giving a title of "Certified Inspector" (or some variation) when the inspector has little or no qualifications except that they sent in money to be certified"

    After reading my post, I remember that was one of the requirements to get my Inspector license in Columbus, GA. (Georgia does not have an inspector license, but Columbus does.)

    Be certified by at least one of the following organzations.
    AXXX, NXXXX, NXXX, HXX, Bubba's skool of Inspecting, and so forth.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: Addendum to NACHI Censorship

    "Im not sure how that qualifies as a conflict of interest! "


    I was referring to the Certification/ Diploma mills

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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