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    daniel nantell's Avatar
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    Default re; dwv pipes through roof

    I saw a house yesterday , and none of the dwv pipes were vented thru roof--I read one time in a code book that if a air admittance valves were used , it did not need to be vented to outside, Is that correct. thanks

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  2. #2
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by daniel nantell View Post
    I saw a house yesterday , and none of the dwv pipes were vented thru roof--I read one time in a code book that if a air admittance valves were used , it did not need to be vented to outside, Is that correct. thanks

    Can't quote you the code number but at least one vent per structure must be to the exterior.


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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Can't quote you the code number but at least one vent per structure must be to the exterior.
    Ted is correct, "at least one" is required to be vented to outdoor air.

    From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)
    - SECTION P3114
    - - AIR ADMITTANCE VALVES
    - - - P3114.7 Vent required. Within each plumbing system, a minimum of one stack vent or a vent stack shall extend outdoors to the open air.

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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by daniel nantell View Post
    I saw a house yesterday , and none of the dwv pipes were vented thru roof--I read one time in a code book that if a air admittance valves were used , it did not need to be vented to outside, Is that correct. thanks
    Daniel Nantell,

    I notice that your location is Illinois. IIRC Illinois is a "home rule" state on many issues, with special provisions for the City of Chicago and the County of Cook often referenced by the size of the population.

    Illinois has its own authored Plumbing Code for those areas outside of the City of Chicago, I believe it is administered by the Department of Public Health. That Code addressesses or at least did address the issue of DWV and of AAVs.

    The last time I looked into that, was advised that the IPC was manditory and local home rule bodies were allowed to ammend to further restrict but not to override and allow what that state code expressly prohibited.

    IIRC, AAVs are prohibited in Illinois, and might be expressly not permitted in Illinois, at least outside of Chicago. You might want to look into and double check that. You also might want to double check the rules/requirements for venting to atmosphere and how they might be versed including notes in the appendices.

    If I can get the older computer to boot up and find the info, or locate it from another source, I'll post again.


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    Jeff Remas's Avatar
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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Excellent points. Barring any ammended local or state codes, the ICC codes require at least one vent terminate to the exterior when using AAVs as Jerry has posted.


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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Daniel Nantell,

    Well seems the old puter won't boot up without some more effort (sort of like the old puter between my ears!).

    Illinois Plumbing Code is part 890 of Title 77, Subchapter r (Water and Sewage).

    Here is a main link to the table of contents (linked):
    PART 890 ILLINOIS PLUMBING CODE : Sections Listing

    You'll find the definitions, etc. applicable

    Some to note:
    Main Vent
    Stack Vent
    Stack Venting.
    Vent Pipe
    Vent Stack
    Vent System

    and Sub-part B plumbing materials (around the .210 area), admittedly, I didn't read through the current version to check how it may have been ammended since I couldn't access my old notes.

    The more comprehensive information is mostly centered in sub-part K
    and appendix K.

    890.1420 Stack Vents, Vent Stacks, Main Vents
    Section 890 (That is a direct link to 890.1420 despite display.)

    890.1430 Vent Terminals
    Section 890 (That is a direct link to 890.1430 despite display.)

    and regarding AAVs which are mechanical vents:

    Section 890.1480 Types of Fixture Trap Vents.
    "d) Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping. " from the following direct link:

    Section 890 (That is a direct link to 890.1480 despite display.)

    There may be more on the subject I grabbed this in real time and hastily, since the old puter wouldn't boot up.

    So with the "haste could be making waste" caveat, it seems that *if* the IPC is the authoritative code, then yes, the IPC requires at least a main vent to atmosphere above the roof, and the AAVs are illegal/inproper, and further that those AAVs are prohibited as they are mechanical devices which are installed in lieu of vent piping, and such devices are expressly prohibited in 890.1480(d), and required and permitted venting are spelled out in the IPC. Also, the IPC has special rules for island vent loops which do not include mechanical venting. IIRC IDPH must approve materials and AAVs are not among the approved materials as well (I didn't go back and read everything and look for this to see if it remains in the code).

    I think you might find the diagrams and language contained in the appendices helpful. Of course checking with the local office having jurisdiction - city, township or county, would be prudent as to what the local office may further restrict and confirming what the authoritative rules are.

    Other areas that may apply:
    Illinois Residential Building Code Act 815 ILCS 670

    You may find this linked list helpful:
    Laws and Administrative Rules (Ill. Dept. of Public Health Web Site list of Plumbing related links.)

    Coffee seems to be working today on the noggin 'puter (wish it worked on the old electronics) ! I'm pretty sure that when a home rule authority adopts the IRC in Illinois among the amendments they usually strike the plumbing section and insert the Illinois Plumbing Code outside of Chicago. Then they may further restrict portions of the IPC. Chicago has its own rules and licensing IIRC, outside of Chicago that is.

    Hope that helps.

    P.S. Do you think we should ask this thread to be moved to the Technical Area under Plumbing, Venting, etc. system area?


    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-08-2009 at 12:32 PM. Reason: post script.

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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    There are two distinct and separate vents: "mechanical vents" and "air admittance valves" which are not mechanical vents.

    That discussion (regarding "air admittance valves" and "mechanical vents" has taken place many times here and other places) and the "mechanical vents" are those which use mechanical devices/actions to open and close the vents, typically spring loaded.

    Air admittance valves work off differences in air pressure.

    Thus, a prohibition against "mechanical vents" does not prohibit "air admittance valves.

    That said, I thank you for the links to the Illinois Plumbing Code and I have sent off an e-mail to them asking for clarification regarding the AAVs and if they are allowed or disallowed, and a code section which allows or disallows them.

    There is also no definition for the prohibited "mechanical vents" or "mechanical devices" either, so I asked if they had a definition for those terms.

    I will post their response back here when I receive it.

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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    There are two distinct and separate vents: "mechanical vents" and "Air admittance valves" which are not mechanical vents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    That discussion (regarding "air admittance valves" and "mechanical vents" has taken place many times here and other places) and the "mechanical vents" are those which use mechanical devices/actions to open and close the vents, typically spring loaded.

    Air admittance valves work off differences in air pressure.

    Thus, a prohibition against "mechanical vents" does not prohibit "air admittance valves".

    I have BTDT before with regards the IPC and AAVs, It as always been responded to in the negative, that is they are prohibited (at least outside of Chicago) and are not expressly approved for use in the aforementioned code, in Illinois.

    I do not wish to engage in a debate as to what an AAV is and is not. I don't feel it is necessary because it is obvious when one examines the device in question and determines how does this magic device close and seal and not admit air vs. how it opens and allows the intake of air, when functioning properly.

    There are no AAVs which have been approved for this use in Illinois (at least outside of Chicago). Your understanding of what is and is not a mechanical device aside. The manufacturers are aware that their equipment is not approved for use - you can check their own sites.
    Have some fun, here is a convenient link to Studor. STUDOR (R) inVENTive Technology (TM) - Air Admittance Valves and some quick cross references to various codes: STUDOR (R) inVENTive Technology (TM) - Air Admittance Valves

    An AAV functioning properly does not release to atmosphere - so this off-topic direction is rather moot since the essential element (even if used under IRC) of a relief vent to main vent is missing according to the OP's post. It does intake air to the as described closed system. It is not an allowed vent termination with the IPC, nor is it an approved device.

    The State of Illinois has its own history and record on this subject.

    I do not wish to debate what the IPC does and does not say. The Illinois Plumbing Code speaks for itself. No part of it stands alone. Good luck on getting an email back. If you do, certainly do share.

    If the original poster has any questions will be happy to address them.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-08-2009 at 04:43 PM. Reason: corrected format error quote didn't appear properly.

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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    As I said ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I will post their response back here when I receive it.


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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    There are two distinct and separate vents: "mechanical vents" and "air admittance valves" which are not mechanical vents.

    That discussion (regarding "air admittance valves" and "mechanical vents" has taken place many times here and other places) and the "mechanical vents" are those which use mechanical devices/actions to open and close the vents, typically spring loaded.

    Air admittance valves work off differences in air pressure.

    Thus, a prohibition against "mechanical vents" does not prohibit "air admittance valves.

    That said, I thank you for the links to the Illinois Plumbing Code and I have sent off an e-mail to them asking for clarification regarding the AAVs and if they are allowed or disallowed, and a code section which allows or disallows them.

    There is also no definition for the prohibited "mechanical vents" or "mechanical devices" either, so I asked if they had a definition for those terms.

    I will post their response back here when I receive it.
    Response received:

    First I received a response from the JCAR person that my question was being forwarded up to another department (Department of Public Health). Then I received a response from that second person that my question was being forwarded to their plumbing section. And now I have their plumbing section response.

    Illinois considers an AAV to be a "mechanical vent", one of the few, if not the only, places which do so, but, their answer was as I expected, considering that they still don't recognize NM as a viable wiring system (unless they have finally changed that stance).

    Mr.. Jerry Peck/Codeman, You are correct sir there is not a definition in the current (2004) Illinois Plumbing Code book describing "mechanical vents".

    However a Air Admittance Valve (AAV) is indeed a mechanical device whether relying on a spring or gravity to permit the venting operation to function there is movement within the device, it is not static. This movement is mechanical, therefore Section 890.1480 d) applies. Thanks, Frank.

    Frank Shimkus
    Plumbing Consultant
    IDPH Environmental Health
    Plumbing Program

    So now we have a definitive answer from the Illinois Plumbing Department - AAVs are considered "mechanical vents" in Illinois, which means you should NOT be finding any AAVs in Illinois.

    If you inspect in Illinois and find AAVs installed, you should be writing them up for improper venting and in needed of correction.

    That correction probably will not come cheap either.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 03-13-2009 at 09:39 PM. Reason: just noticed that I left the last part of the last line off
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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Response received:

    First I received a response from the JCAR person that my question was being forwarded up to another department (Department of Public Health). Then I received a response from that second person that my question was being forwarded to their plumbing section. And now I have their plumbing section response.

    Illinois considers an AAV to be a "mechanical vent", one of the few, if not the only, places which do so, but, their answer was as I expected, considering that they still don't recognize NM as a viable wiring system (unless they have finally changed that stance).

    **Deleted represented correspondence by the request of Department

    since it was published without permission of the author**



    So now we have a definitive answer from the Illinois Plumbing Department - AAVs are considered "mechanical vents" in Illinois, which means you should NOT be finding any AAVs in Illinois.

    If you inspect in Illinois and find AAVs installed, you should be writing them up for improper venting and in needed of correction.

    That correction probably will not come cheap either.
    Yes and you will find the same stance in states that lean to the purist UPC rather than ICC plumbing codes.

    However, Chicago has its own plumbing code and Plumbing licensing. There is not automatic reciprocity between state issued licenses and City of Chicago licenses they are separately issued. I haven't checked the code for the City of Chicago as they have automomy (sort of like NYC versus NY State).

    Illinois as a State has not had a prohibition on NM-B. It is Chicago and the greater Chicago area which has required bonded Metalic conduit and prohibits NM/NM-B. However most areas that otherwise don't restrict, are strict on the DRY LOCATION restriction and don't allow in unconditioned wall cavities with exterior exposure, unconditioned attics or unconditioned garages.

    The Greater Chicago area is not the only region in the country that has been resistant to the less restrictive use NM or NM-B in the NEC.

    Amongst other things the City of Chicago has "rat problems". Rodent chewing on wiring insulation and plastic conduit has been one of the "identified" issues.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-16-2009 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Deleted quoted portion published without permission of the author.

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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Yes and you will find the same stance in states that lean to the purist UPC rather than ICC plumbing codes.
    The following is not directed at you, only those "purist UPC" folks you mentioned who believe that "lift" is "mechanical".

    Yes, I learned something new today, I learned that the old established principle of flight, Bernoulli's principle, no longer applies, it is a 'mechanical flight theory' which has heretofore never been stated (at least I have not see it stated anywhere before, but that does not mean much).

    I never realized that an airplane wing operated mechanically through the air, I learned that it was the lower air pressure at the top of the wing creating lift, and higher air pressure under the wing creating additional lift, which allowed for the aircraft to leave the ground and fly in the air. I now know it is a "mechanical flight theory" (that the movement of an airplane wing up into the air is mechanical), not based on 'Bernoulli's principle', which allows an airplane to fly.

    That is also how an air admittance valve operates. Its operation is based on the pressure differential between the air pressure within the vent pipe and the air pressure outside the vent pipe. When water flows down the waste line, air is sucked into the vent, which lowers the air pressure inside the vent, and, in the case of an air admittance valve which is sealing the otherwise open vent, the reduced air pressure inside the vent creates lift on the air admittance valve seal, which lifts off its seat, allowing the vent to admit air, and when the air pressure equalizes, the seal no longer has uplift as the air pressure on each side of the seal are equal, allowing the seal to set back down on its seat.

    I guess I need to inform all of the flight instructors that they have been teaching their students wrong, and flying under incorrect conditions, all these decades.

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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    ...Sigh. Its not what causes the movement but that there is movement and the seal is not permanent, the sealed path venting to atmosphere.

    History goes back to numerous city blocks in several areas in the country blowing up from sewer gas.

    AAVs can and do fail to close. Something as simple as a bit of dirt or dust collection can prevent. They aren't designed to last 25, 50 or 100 years, more like 5-10, which IMHO = planned failure and $$ replacement parts and $$ labor.


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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    ...Sigh. Its not what causes the movement but that there is movement and the seal is not permanent, the sealed path venting to atmosphere.
    sigh ... that's what I'm talking about ... the airplane wing goes up with greater lift (pressure differential) and the airplane flies, the airplane wing goes down with decreased lift and the airplane lands.

    The airplane wing, then, moves up and down, just like that seal does.

    Therefore, the theory of flight is a "mechanical theory of flight" and no one has understood that all this time!

    History goes back to numerous city blocks in several areas in the country blowing up from sewer gas.
    And your reference sources are what, about which explosion where, and what was the underlying cause?

    Or, is it like this:
    Amongst other things the City of Chicago has "rat problems". Rodent chewing on wiring insulation and plastic conduit has been one of the "identified" issues.
    Where, instead of addressing the underlying problem (not referring to you) they are addressing one thing the underlying problem does.

    Instead of requiring others to spend a lot on using metal conduit, spend that money on eliminating or reducing the underlying problem.

    AAVs can and do fail to close. Something as simple as a bit of dirt or dust collection can prevent. They aren't designed to last 25, 50 or 100 years, more like 5-10, which IMHO = planned failure and $$ replacement parts and $$ labor.
    And, as recently discussed on other threads here, the use of other-than-AAVs can lead to similar but undiscovered problems, such as when the lead flashing covers and blocks the vent terminals, plumber's leave their test balls in the vent terminals, improper vent connections are made, and, to make matters even worse, there are those other-than-AAV-venting/non-venting done by non-plumbers.

    In short, there are failures in *EVERY* type of system - *NO* system is failsafe and free from errors.

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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Bottom line: AAVs are not permitted in Illinois (at least not allowed outside the City of Chicago).

    I said so and provided links to the code. It was disputed but I was right. Now you're trying to carry on about how the Code and those that write it and enforce it are wrong.

    Facts are facts. They (AAVs) are not permitted in Illinois. It is something worthy of mentioning in an Inspection Report.

    THE LAST WORD.


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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Bottom line: AAVs are not permitted in Illinois (at least not allowed outside the City of Chicago).

    I said so and provided links to the code.
    You "said so", yes, but your "links to the code" did not back you up, nor, I will add, did it say you were incorrect. "The code" simply stated that mechanical valves are prohibited, and did not in any way reference or mention "air admittance valves".

    That is why *I* "went to the source" ... to find the true answer.

    The true answer is that 'they consider air admittance valves to be mechanical valves and they do not provide a definition for what a mechanical valve is', thus, *WHILE MOST OTHER CODES* do not consider air admittance valves to be "mechanical valves", *they do*.

    Your linking to a non-specific code section does not provide a lot of good usable information, and because you said so means nothing without backup documentation, *which I got*.

    It was disputed but I was right.
    Incorrect YET AGAIN.

    What you said was not "disputed", what you said was "asked for back up documentation", which, yet again, you did not provide. So *I* went out and got that backup documentation.

    [quote]They (AAVs) are not permitted in Illinois. It is something worthy of mentioning in an Inspection Report.[/quote

    That, I will agree, is a correct statement.

    But not because you said so, because *THEY* said so.

    THE LAST WORD.
    Yep, this is.

    If you want to drag this down into the gutter and fight with yourself there, go for it.

    "THE LAST WORD" came from the plumbing department in that e-mail. It did not come from *EITHER* of us.

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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    There are two distinct and separate vents: "mechanical vents" and "air admittance valves" which are not mechanical vents.

    That discussion (regarding "air admittance valves" and "mechanical vents" has taken place many times here and other places) and the "mechanical vents" are those which use mechanical devices/actions to open and close the vents, typically spring loaded.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post


    I have BTDT before with regards the IPC and AAVs, It as always been responded to in the negative, that is they are prohibited (at least outside of Chicago) and are not expressly approved for use in the aforementioned code, in Illinois.

    I do not wish to engage in a debate as to what an AAV is and is not. I don't feel it is necessary because it is obvious when one examines the device in question and determines how does this magic device close and seal and not admit air vs. how it opens and allows the intake of air, when functioning properly.

    There are no AAVs which have been approved for this use in Illinois (at least outside of Chicago). Your understanding of what is and is not a mechanical device aside. The manufacturers are aware that their equipment is not approved for use - you can check their own sites.
    Have some fun, here is a convenient link to Studor. STUDOR (R) inVENTive Technology (TM) - Air Admittance Valves and some quick cross references to various codes: STUDOR (R) inVENTive Technology (TM) - Air Admittance Valves

    An AAV functioning properly does not release to atmosphere - so this off-topic direction is rather moot since the essential element (even if used under IRC) of a relief vent to main vent is missing according to the OP's post. It does intake air to the as described closed system. It is not an allowed vent termination with the IPC, nor is it an approved device.

    The State of Illinois has its own history and record on this subject.

    I do not wish to debate what the IPC does and does not say. The Illinois Plumbing Code speaks for itself. No part of it stands alone. Good luck on getting an email back. If you do, certainly do share.

    If the original poster has any questions will be happy to address them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Response received:

    *deleted quoted published text by official request, as it was published by another without the consent of the author of the Department.*
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    ...Sigh. Its not what causes the movement but that there is movement and the seal is not permanent, the sealed path venting to atmosphere.

    History goes back to numerous city blocks in several areas in the country blowing up from sewer gas.

    AAVs can and do fail to close. Something as simple as a bit of dirt or dust collection can prevent. They aren't designed to last 25, 50 or 100 years, more like 5-10, which IMHO = planned failure and $$ replacement parts and $$ labor.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Bottom line: AAVs are not permitted in Illinois (at least not allowed outside the City of Chicago).

    I said so and provided links to the code. It was disputed but I was right. Now you're trying to carry on about how the Code and those that write it and enforce it are wrong.

    Facts are facts. They (AAVs) are not permitted in Illinois. It is something worthy of mentioning in an Inspection Report.

    THE LAST WORD.
    . . . . .*sigh*

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-16-2009 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Deleted quoted published by another's text as it was used without permission of author or Department.

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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    The "THE FINAL WORD" is not up to Watson nor myself, it is up to the Authority Having Jurisdiction, and *THEY* had *THE FINAL WORD*

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That is why *I* "went to the source" ... to find the true answer.

    Mr.. Jerry Peck/Codeman, You are correct sir there is not a definition in the current (2004) Illinois Plumbing Code book describing "mechanical vents".

    However a Air Admittance Valve (AAV) is indeed a mechanical device whether relying on a spring or gravity to permit the venting operation to function there is movement within the device, it is not static. This movement is mechanical, therefore Section 890.1480 d) applies. Thanks, Frank.

    Frank Shimkus
    Plumbing Consultant
    IDPH Environmental Health
    Plumbing Program

    So now we have a definitive answer from the Illinois Plumbing Department - AAVs are considered "mechanical vents" in Illinois, which means you should NOT be finding any AAVs in Illinois.

    If you inspect in Illinois and find AAVs installed, you should be writing them up for improper venting and in needed of correction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    "THE LAST WORD" came from the plumbing department in that e-mail. It did not come from *EITHER* of us.
    I've received a number of PMs which have told me that the only thing I can do at this point is to allow you to wallow in the gutter yourself, since *I* have pointed out who had the final word, ... and it 'twas neither of us. I agree with those PMs - signing off on this.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 03-14-2009 at 08:37 PM.
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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    ...*Sigh!*


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    Unhappy Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "If you want to drag this down into the gutter and fight with yourself there, go for it".....
    ....."That is why *I* "went to the source" ... to find the true answer"
    I provided the true answer and the true and correct citations and the source. Implications that my posts were in anyway untrue or incorrect are disingenuous and is the only *gutter*, *garbage* or "trash talk" on this string.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I've received a number of PMs which have told me that the only thing I can do at this point is to allow you to wallow in the gutter yourself, since *I* have pointed out who had the final word, ... and it 'twas neither of us. I agree with those PMs - signing off on this.
    *** (deep) Sigh!***
    Continued ad hominem attacks especially in a topic area devoted to standards & ethical issues....
    = ***Sigh...Sigh!*** You are alone in your receipts of private messages or emails indicative of any inappropriate discussion or activity on this string. I feel that is telling regarding who's posts are being aledged or perceived as gutter antics and which ones are not.

    On-Topic:

    No sub-section or section stands alone. I will not get into how codification works. If you are unclear on how to read and interpret the Illinois Plumbing Code or the Illinois codification system the ultimate authority in such interpretations is the Illinois Supreme Court (and if U.S. Constitutional questions can be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court).

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Illinois Plumbing Code is part 890 of Title 77, Subchapter r (Water and Sewage).
    Here is a main link to the table of contents (linked):
    PART 890 ILLINOIS PLUMBING CODE : Sections Listing <http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890sections.html>

    You'll find the definitions, etc. applicable

    Some to note:
    Main Vent
    Stack Vent
    Stack Venting.
    Vent Pipe
    Vent Stack
    Vent System

    and Sub-part B plumbing materials (around the .210 area)
    *H.G.'s note: sub-part B is very important - not approved then not allowed.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The more comprehensive information is mostly centered in sub-part K
    and appendix K.

    890.1420 Stack Vents, Vent Stacks, Main Vents
    Section 890 <http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/077008900K14200R.html> (That is a direct link to 890.1420 despite display.)

    890.1430 Vent Terminals
    Section 890 <http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/077008900K14300R.html> (That is a direct link to 890.1430 despite display.)

    and regarding AAVs which are mechanical vents:

    Section 890.1480 Types of Fixture Trap Vents.
    "d) Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping. " from the following direct link:

    Section 890 <http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/077008900K14800R.html> (That is a direct link to 890.1480 despite display.)
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    .... *if* the IPC is the authoritative code, then yes, the IPC requires at least a main vent to atmosphere above the roof, and the AAVs are illegal/inproper, and further that those AAVs are prohibited as they are mechanical devices which are installed in lieu of vent piping, and such devices are expressly prohibited in 890.1480(d), and required and permitted venting are spelled out in the IPC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    You "said so", yes, but your "links to the code" did not back you up, nor, I will add, did it say you were incorrect. "The code" simply stated that mechanical valves are prohibited, and did not in any way reference or mention "air admittance valves".
    I do not agree with either your summary or your opinion on what my posts did and did not say, nor what my references do and do not say on the subject. I especially do not agree with your conclusions, your logic, nor limited reading of the Illinois Plumbing Code; for they are flawed as are your interpretations and reasoning.

    The Illinois Plumbing Code, and my "links to the code" (which included the entire code) and my citations (including sub-part B) did and do back me up. The meaning of what "mechanical devices in lieu of vent piping" is as "the code" prohibits "mechanical vents" as a definition or explanation, and the rules of Illinois Codification. That AAVs were not expressly referenced in sub-part B in and of itself *means* that they are not permitted *unless* the aforementioned IDPH *approves* them as *permitted* materials and this is done on a case by case submission by manufacturer. Your own inquiry supposedly resulted in a similar acknowledgment from the IDPH.

    What I offered was 100% "on-topic" for the ORIGINAL POST and the ORIGINAL POSTER'S stated LOCATION (Collinsville, IL), I was complete, concise, 100% Truthful and 100% Correct for the application in that location.

    The code nor any snippet is not taken free-standing. One actually has to read and comprehend the entire code and know how to apply it. To do so requires some knowledge of the entirety of how codes are constructed and codified in Illinois, as well as to the subject matter a certain amount of expertise. The "code" doesn't define what it doesn't need to define, it only defines or limits the meaning of a word or term when necessary. I had further indicated that this had been verified personally with the authority on more than one occasion (IDPH).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck, attributing the remarks to Frank Shimkus, Plumbing Consultant, IDPH Environmental Health Plumbing Program
    However a Air Admittance Valve (AAV) is indeed a mechanical device whether relying on a spring or gravity to permit the venting operation to function there is movement within the device,it is not static. This movement is mechanical, therefore Section 890.1480 d) applies.
    IOW an AAV is a mechanical device which is installed in lieu of the required fixture trap vent piping, therefore as stated by sub-section 1480(d) it is a mechanical vent and is therefore prohibited.

    Reply:

    I have done my utmost to ignore, and not respond directly to the disingenous personal remarks and Ad hominem attacks. The "gutter", "trash" or "garbage" argument has not been from this direction. It appears obvious who is and who is not "wallowing".

    I do not enjoy my credibility, my experience, or my knowledge on a particular matter being attacked. I directed and supplied the resources to verify what I stated.

    I did everything I could to refrain from any inappropriate activity, direct the original poster and interested parties to the appropriate ruling code, resources for verification and interpretation, and keep the discussion on-topic and professional and non-personal; and focuses to what was and was not permitted to the original poster's direct inquiry relevant to the stated location and not debate the rightness or wrongness of the Illinois Plumbing Code itself.

    This is a professional site for professional and RESPONSIBLE discussions.

    I did not think this site was a tribute to a particular high poster, or "The World According to Garp (or other self-appointed Guru)*" (*insert name); or a site of bullies and bashers, or that the rules of behavior and posting activity applied equally to ALL participants on this site.

    I believed that this site was about promoting and bettering the profession and helping out our brothers and sisters in their professional endeavors.

    This topic area is titled: "Associations, Ethics, Standards, Licensing, Legislation: Home Inspectors & Commerical Inspectors". I questioned early on if perhaps this topic string should be requested to be moved to the plumbing area but here it remains.


    I find the continued Ad hominem activity objectional, unethical, unprofessional and downright defiant of the terms and conditions, and the correspondance containing expressed wishes of our gracious host .I find them particularly objectional considering the subject area this discussion was posted in.


    For the record, the "ignore list" feature does not work regarding posts on topic strings subscribed to or unsubscribed to.

    I am tired of the "garbage", "trash talk" and "gutter" offences. I appeal that it is time to "take out the trash" or at least screen and contain it until it can be removed or eliminated.







    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-15-2009 at 01:33 PM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: re; dwv pipes through roof

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I am tired of the "garbage", "trash talk" and "gutter" offences. I appeal that it is time to "take out the trash" or at least screen and contain it until it can be removed or eliminated.

    Then a good and excellent start would be deleting your post above.

    I have avowed to say no more.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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