Thread: Trade or profession?

Kevin,

From what I understand Alberta did not research into the background facts of CMI, they were told and took as facts what CMI was supposedly to be.

Also it has also been admitted by those that sat in on the licensing committee set up by the Alberta Government, that any input by the two or three associations at the table that advice/input from the professionals at the table were completely ignored in the final licencing act, and dependent on who one speaks to the licencing is a farce and is actually to restrictive and not necessarily what is best for the profession.

Kevin perhaps you could explain to me how the CMI board deals with complaints from members of the public?

As you also know I and others have been openly critical of the Nat. Cert. program and the issues that surfaced with it.

The industry in Canada at least in Ont. is more fractured now with competing designations and associations than it ever was.

What is required is the profession to have one voice, with a blend of both worlds as far as association requirements.

I know for a fact licensing is not on the radar for our provincial government and likely will not be for sometime into the foreseeable future.

Stats indicate contrary to others trying to promote otherwise that there is NOT a huge problem within the inspection profession.

Even the stats presented on the Nat. Cert. site indicate the problem has been over stated as well as BBB stats, and case law, given the number of home sale transactions each year in Canada.

Anyone who did their inspection exams on-line and not proctored is not qualified anything. Regardless of association. They may be good inspectors, but, education without confirmation is a farce.

If you think that after two years in school (Humber College) and then another two in business I cant call myself professional then you most certainly drank Nicks kool aid...
Who certified you? A non partisan second body? Where you required to send all your CV into this second party for examination. Oh you mean qualified. Semantics eh.
I been a tradesman for over 30 years Lots of licenses and a Certified Engineering Technician, CERTIFIED. That means I had to send all my course reports and eduction into a non partisan second party for verification, namely the Institute for Engineering Technology Ontario (IETO). My association could do not that, it would most certainly be a conflict of interest for them to infer a "certified" moniker.

As for professional, if you got paid one dollar for doing your job your a professional, because thats what your business is and professional get paid, not the length of time doing it.

I am no longer a member of any association.

I can't remember the last time a client inquired whether I was a member of an association, does that make me non professional?

No one cares if I am an RHI, or an Ashi Cert. Inspector, let alone the Nat. Cert. CMI ... At one time I thought they did.

The established associations in Ontario all have some explaining to do both to their members, and the public. How can we call ourselves professionals when we tolerate non professional governance?

Which association is leading by example?

Titles dreamt up solely for marketing purposes by a bunch of marketeers,
and to-line-pockets is in my view an affront to professionalism from the top on down.

Deceptive Marketing?...Canadian Academy of Certified Home Inspectors.

Home Inspector Training in Canada

In a sea of fly-by-night inspectors you will stand out and reap the rewards of your success. The hurdle for inspectors is that all associations require hundreds of hours of previous inspections and have now teamed up with colleges to promote full time correspondence programs. These courses can cost thousands of dollars and take up to 3 years to complete.

FAQ
Home Inspector Training in Canada

This exactly what the 'profession' does not need.

Thanks Nachi for making 'fly-by-night' so meaningful at the very least I hope you certify the attendee with a certificate of training for Visual Flight Rules!

Yes I would rather have colleges turning out inspectors. Their courses take longer than 40 hours and upon graduation you don't get a shingle to hang out you get a diploma.

The question you propose is moot. Mr. Holmes is not teaching the courses.

For any wannabe association such as Nachi to be promoting that a 40 hour course is sufficient is absolutely deceptive both to the the student and the public.

The other disconcerting info is the lack of any information as to who the teachers are or any contact names on the site.

Wannabe inspectors would be well advised to avoid these type course providers.

My point has nothing to do with your association or mine. It has everything to do with perception. One of my clients, one, asked if I was with an association. Doesn't matter. Its education and proof that you are who you say you are. Raymond and many others dont need the the title, they are established and all of those question abuot how you cam to call yourself 'Home Inspector' have been answered.
Nick has my address...if he has a beef with my post....

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

You mean to say Raymond you are no longer a RHI?
It would not matter anyways you have the hours behind you and inspections.
Nick just responded to this on the InterNachi site.
As for CMI no one is lining the pockets from it.
It is a one time payment and you are done.
So what! great you have 2 years Humber and 2 years business so do most Professional HI's
As for Proctored Exams you are full of ****. I have been through many and see only one result. Those that come out forget all the stuff they learned in less than half a year and never now what they did wrong. The best way to learn is online and no Schooling could hold a candle stick against the education provided by Nachi.
And no Association has more Professional Inspectors.

[quote=Kevin Wood;202435]
As for Proctored Exams you are full of ****. I have been through many and see only one result. Those that come out forget all the stuff they learned in less than half a year and never now what they did wrong. The best way to learn is online and no Schooling could hold a candle stick against the education provided by Nachi.
And no Association has more Professional Inspectors.[/quot

No I am not full of manure, and everyone here knows that. Why would writing an exam with an Invigilator reduce my intelligence after I write the exam. The purpose of a witness is to confirm that you wrote the exam without assistance, and that the person is competent enough to do that task without supervision.
You wrote these; any grade school exam; post secondary; driver license and road test; your trade tickets, and thru your reasoning we finished those tests and forgot everything.

What selling point is it to my client when I tell them we have more inspectors.

The state says I am a professional, so I guess I is one. I still don't see any importance in the designation.

I was a professional pilot for 14 years. This included constant training (practical and theoretical, OJT and classroom), near constant testing (closed book) and check rides and professional rules of ethics. As a professional HI I am required to take only two classes per year, each with an open book test and I have never experienced the equivalent of a check ride. In fact, every test I took during the licensing training, for the license and for the ICC certs has been open book. Therefore, in terms of academic accomplishment and performance evaluations HI is a much less difficult profession to enter and maintain than being a professional pilot.

I have known butt crack personalities in both the professions and the trades. However, none of the professionals I have ever respected would have stereotyped a trade with such snobbish characterizations.

A view of What Are Professional Services are viewed by the courts, lawyers and insurers.

What Are Professional Services?

Professional gets paid.
Amature does not get paid.

[quote=Kevin Wood;202471]

Originally Posted by Stephen G

Stephen you might not be aware but I taught the CARSON DUNLOP so I know what is required along with the EXAMS. I still have them all and found they are joke compared to the knowledge InterNachi has to offer and the way they are taught.
I do agree that someone can cheat easily on the EXAMS for Nachi but he most likely will not last long in the field of inspection so there really is no threat.

Kevin, since you are in Ontario, you may not know much about CAHPI(BC), but since you have proclaimed superiority because you are a fee-paying interNACHI member, let me enlighten you.

Anyone can cheat the online exam, as you admit. Anyone can lie about their past experience, and anyone can claim to have completed 1000 paid inspections and get their CMI sticker. Anybody.

CAHPI(BC) inspectors have written proctored exams, no cheating. New associates have performed mock test inspections with peer review. Don't make me describe it, look it up TIPR. Continuing education is mandatory, no cheating there either.

CAHPI(BC) is the only association in the world that has it's own E+O insurance policy funded by members. We can afford to do this because members are trained and tested like any professional association should.

Semantics; good fodder for debate and growing a bit. Because of my experience in the construction "trades" and comparing a trade specific electrician or carpenter to a generalist like a home inspector - - - so profession. Then I went to Webster. Of the 22 definitions for trade; definition # 4 said "any occupation pursued as a business or livelyhood" - - - so trade. Webster's definition of a profession is also totally consistent with inspecting - - - sooo final answer - - - BOTH

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

I have a problem with Certified Master Inspector designation, given the way it is structured, and set up, and the manner in which anyone can obtain one. And the fact several were given the designation gratis with no qualifying checks, let alone NG claiming he is a CMI!

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

For those in CANADA here is something to think about. I feel strongly that those who have fulfilled what is required as Certified Master Inspectors give them the full permission to be considered a PROFESSIONAL. for those that are learning you cannot achieve this status until after 3 years in the business. I don't agree that someone can call themselves CERTIFIED after a one week course even though many do.

Anybody can claim to have done 1000 inspections and get the CMI sticker.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood;

Very true but they would not last the 3 years in the business and would not get a signed Notary of Public.

Somehow that is not very reassuring. The client wants a professional with valid credentials right now, not 3 years from now.
As the imposters drop out of the business, are new members being signed up all the time? You bet they are.

They are what your grandma would have called the rotten apples. Your association and your certification is only as good as your lowest qualified members, which are dragging the rest of you down to their level, bottom of the barrel.

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

I will also point out there is not a single CAPHI inspector in my area. They all went out of business.

CAHPI Ontario has had some internal problems, as Raymond knows very well. The association must be run as a non-profit organization, and that means committed volunteers are needed. Here in BC we are working to raise the bar to the highest possible level, to set an example for professionalism in this country.

You ticked me off saying your beloved for profit association, with no checks or balances in place to weed out the unsavory elements, is the best we can do.

That, as somebody said above, is BS.

So which association spearheaded this program?

Actually from a professional educators POV the curriculum appears "reasonably sufficient" and well rounded. It seems to be a blend of construction techniques along with home inspection education, and a bit of "general education".

Seems great for 2nd career candidates, or those looking for a blend of the two disciplines - just like what you see on the show!

However, I personally have no FACTS on the quality of the graduates. That remains to be proven. Time will tell.....

What does it take to get a signed affidavit from a notary?

I've had several notarized documents signed by lawyers selected at random out of the yellow pages. They did not know me or my business at all!

My response to my question - Payment for the service and swearing an oath that the facts are true. Almost as good as the paper it's written on!

Originally Posted by Kevin Wood

Notary of the Public is not the same.

Different how?

They are only attesting to the fact that they know *who* *signed* the document (whatever the document is or what it says is inconsequential to them).

Hello Claude. Please edit your last post, #89. That quote was posted by Kevin Wood, not me.

If you can lie to your clients, you can also lie to a Notary.

An affidavit is a document sworn under oath to be true 'to the best of his (or her) knowledge'. Anyone who swears that the contents of an affidavit are true knowing that any part is untrue is guilty of perjury.

I suspect there are instances of abuse given who set up this CMI and how its structured. No one has been audited for truthfulness as to what they claimed on their affidavit as per the CMI requirements.

CMI is nothing but a money grab for a false and misleading certification just like all the others offered by Nacho.

Criminal Code of Canada

PART IV: OFFENCES AGAINST THE ADMINISTRATION OF LAW AND JUSTICE

Misleading Justice
Perjury
131. (1) Subject to subsection (3), every one commits perjury who, with intent to mislead, makes before a person who is authorized by law to permit it to be made before him a false statement under oath or solemn affirmation, by affidavit, solemn declaration or deposition or orally, knowing that the statement is false.

Video links, etc.
(1.1) Subject to subsection (3), every person who gives evidence under subsection 46(2) of the Canada Evidence Act, or gives evidence or a statement pursuant to an order made under section 22.2 of the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act, commits perjury who, with intent to mislead, makes a false statement knowing that it is false, whether or not the false statement was made under oath or solemn affirmation in accordance with subsection (1), so long as the false statement was made in accordance with any formalities required by the law of the place outside Canada in which the person is virtually present or heard.

Idem
(2) Subsection (1) applies, whether or not a statement referred to in that subsection is made in a judicial proceeding.

Application
(3) Subsections (1) and (1.1) do not apply to a statement referred to in either of those subsections that is made by a person who is not specially permitted, authorized or required by law to make that statement.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 131; R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 17; 1999, c. 18, s. 92.

What happen in Ontario?
Where is CMI recognized in Ontario, and by whom?

A one time payment of $1000 with no reviews and because Nick and cronies say your certified?

Do you recognize a conflict of interest when you see one? Look who makes up the BOD of CMI. Do you really believe these people are there to make sure you say who you say you are and what you say you are?

The accreditation has already been thrown into disrepute by Nick gratuitously handing the title out for free? Then trying to pass off the title up here by saying the Canadian Government recognizes CMI inferring it was an endorsement from the government. What poppycock. Word games, and its a pity so called enlightened inspector even partake of something so questionable.

Real associations do no hand out free memberships, designations, titles - the accreditation is earned by review of your peers who are accredited themselves and not accredited by each other.

Sorry to bust your beach ball, but you are being taken advantage of as are others who are spell bound by the titles the grand wizard and gang bestow.

Kevin

You have read the CMI website haven't you? Everytime I refer to it I start to laugh...

Even senior inspectors on your other forum have poo pooed it as a joke. Nothing but a money maker for you know who. No reviews, no complaint process, not much of anything, just some fancy smancy words... hook line and sinker... swamp land for sale - ocean view.. cheques in the mail...

later,