Thread: Should I make one for the ASHI SOP?

Here's a short video that you can embed.
It's an introduction to the InterNACHI Standards of Practice.
YouTube - bengromicko's Channel

Should I make one for the ASHI Standards?

Similar Threads:

• BOOM! ASHI Dumps Swandby
• Make it fit
• Make pool safety a priority - Orlando Sentinel
• Home inspections key to helping buyers make sound decision - Chicago Daily Southtown

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

Here's a short video that you can embed.
It's an introduction to the InterNACHI Standards of Practice.
YouTube - bengromicko's Channel

Should I make one for the ASHI Standards?

Call and ask them.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

Here's a short video that you can embed.
It's an introduction to the InterNACHI Standards of Practice.
YouTube - bengromicko's Channel

Should I make one for the ASHI Standards?

The whole video thing is a tough one.... Maybe I'm just impatient but when surfing the net when I come across videos I usually click away as fast as possible. I guess ultimately it's just a control thing... with text I'm in control of what I read. With a video I'm stuck waiting.

I've thought of putting videos into inspection reports to show problems (furnaces cycling off, garage door openers not working properly, etc.) but it seems like it would be too far over many people's heads and may clutter the report.

Matt
I wouldn't be surprised if the next "thing" in HI reports is all video reports.

I'm like you Matt. I really don't care for the video links all the time. Some times it's OK, but not all the time. Often times, I prefer to just read something and not have to sit through a video with a 20 second ad at the beginning.

I don't mind video. What I don't like is when someone walks on to the screen and starts talking to you when you don't expect it. You know what I'm talking about. Scares the Sh!t out of me, especially at 1:30 in the morning!

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Call and ask them.

Ha! Why would I do that?!

A video about the ASHI SOP would not be for ASHI.
It would be for the inspector.

---

We're developing strategies aimed at helping inspectors get great value from the video on their websites. Websites with effective video should expect to achieve significant (50% to 200%) increase in conversion rates (conversion - getting site visitors to schedule inspections).

The goal is similar to optimizing the links in your email or links on your website. The key is to figure out "Where?" and "How?" the video should be presented on an inspector's website.

---

DIY:
Right now... you can embed very effective marketing videos into your website that have a huge impact on converting site visitors into clients... It's something I've been promoting for years... VIDEO TESTIMONIALS.

---

And I agree with Mr. Frost.... In the near future (maybe NOW), clients will expect video to be included in their inspection reports.

Inspection report video today is where digital pictures were 10 years ago.

Can't wait for the SOP to hit the big screen. WTF????
Click on the video to have some one read the SOP, AND try to explain it?????? OMG! That is worse than watching grass grow, or paint dry.

What better way to drive people AWAY from your web site??? Post a video about SOP.
Sheeeesh

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

Can't wait for the SOP to hit the big screen. WTF????
Click on the video to have some one read the SOP, AND try to explain it?????? OMG! That is worse than watching grass grow, or paint dry.

What better way to drive people AWAY from your web site??? Post a video about SOP.
Sheeeesh

I respectfully disagree with Jack.

Take this site as an example of what not to do in relation to the SOP.
I see the ASHI SOP is not readily available - but "available only by special request."



Oh, my.

As a potential client, I would wonder why this inspector would not make the SOP freely available, easy to access, either by text, link or video? "What are you hiding?" one visitor may wonder. Why make it difficult to for clients to access the SOP to which the inspection is performed? Why make something (the SOP) available only by request? I wander how many clients actually request the SOP? What a flaw...

The website designer should consider adding a page in the left-side menu titled "Standards." That way, the site has made the SOP readily available for both potential and existing clients. Having the SOP readily available (without the special request requirement) also adds the benefit of helping to limit the inspector's liability and set clients' expectations.

I also recommend an abbreviated SOP as part of the inspection report. And the contract/agreement should state that the client has read and understood the entire inspection report. That way, the SOP becomes part of the report, and is considered as one single legal document (report and SOP combined).

Trying to hide the SOP (or at least making it available only by special request) is not the way to convert site visitors into clients.

Presenting the SOP to site visitors, in any format (albeit text, html, video, pdf or link) is essential for any home inspector who strives to inform their clients in the most professional manner.

I like this one YouTube - bengromicko's Channel
We believe site visitors will get their expectations set properly in a more effective way using video like this one - rather than reading the actual standards of practice.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

I respectfully disagree with Jack.

Oh, my.

As a potential client, I would wonder why this inspector would not make the SOP freely available, easy to access, either by text, link or video? "What are you hiding?" one visitor may wonder. Why make it difficult to for clients to access the SOP to which the inspection is performed? Why make something (the SOP) available only by request? I wander how many clients actually request the SOP? What a flaw...

Trying to hide the SOP (or at least making it available only by special request) is not the way to convert site visitors into clients.

.

I've had thousands of call over the years, the only questions they ever asked were answered by the info on Jacks site. To date I have never had a customer ask me about a SOP. I dought any ever even care.

I have had a few comment that the ASHI
Take a Virtual Home Inspection Tour was very informative.

You keep on a telling nacho members they need fill their sites with all those useless logos and videos on their sites, while the pros will tell the customer what they want to find it the first few seconds that they click on a website

Just what we need.... more video blah! blah! blah!

Look at me mommy I'm on TV!!

Answers.com - How many videos are there on YouTube

How many youtube videos are there?

845,177,209,022 That was an approx. answer there's no way you can be for sure how many videos are on YouTube because at this very moment, every minute/second there's a video being uploaded so lets...

How about writing a report that IF it is read they might have a chance at some comprehension of what you are trying to communicate.

Of course reading or watching the SOP has a snowball's chance!!

In the states(MS & TN) that I hold a home inspector license I must follow the state's SOP. I can not recall ever being asked what SOP I follow? It really is a moot point if you are in a licensed state.

Scott,
I agree moot point, state Lic. SOP.

The real question may be how many states do not require a license and there is no state SOP for the unlicensed.

Same thing goes for other countries?

Last number I heard was about 30 states have licensing and some SOP.

Clients don't care about the SOP until they want to sue. Then the lawyers want to compare what the report documents vs. the SOP. Clients haven't got a clue what a home inspection entails. They don't know if they got a good one or bad one until something in the home doesn't work and they call the HI for an explanation.

Only had 2 or 3 potential clients ever ask for a written list of what is going to be inspected. I sent them my contract since it lists everything in the SOP that must be inspected.

Putting on your website that you follow an SOP, any SOP, is just to convince the customer you are not just winging it. I would bet you could post on your website that you follow the OED SOP and noone would blink. What is OED? Something I just made up. Overlook Ever Defect. SOP is available upon request.

State licensing in my area with state SOP. State SOP is available online at the licensing board website.

I use the SOP to set the client's expectations.
Some clients actually believe inspectors inspect everything.
Many first-time homebuyers sincerely believe that there are no limitations to our inspection.
Having a easy-to-understand introduction to the SOP, which in great detail describes limitations, exclusions and exceptions, only helps guide their understanding.

Offering the SOP, just as it is, does not help towards that goal. What client actually reads that thing? I suspect very few. And if that's the case, and if that's what I believe, then it's my obligation to help my clients understand why they hired me prior to the inspection.

I think video helps my client towards that end.

I like this video too.... YouTube - What Really Matters at a Home Inspection

I understand we have SOPs for a reason but to place so much emphasis on them like this would make me think the inspector is likely not inspecting some potentially costly items during an inspection (ie - interior of chimney flues whenever possible, walking roofs, etc). To perform an inspection and just stick to those SOPs and not go beyond them would not make for a very good inspection.

"When in doubt about what the SOP requires in a particular situation, the inspector should err on the side of caution and exceed what the SOP requires. It is better to do a little more than what may be required than to do less and risk a potential claim and harm to your reputation."

Ben
ASHI does not wish to be associated with you. And I do not blame them. You are associated with a third rate organization that my 12 year old grandson passed there test for certification. Leave ASHI alone they are to far above you. American Inspectors Association is better than the one you belong to. Ben you are not worth the time.
Bruce

edited

edited

I'm not a partner, employee or W-2 anything at InterNACHI.

I sell things to make money, books and videos mainly.
I also help develop enormous amounts of things that are free - such as articles, courses, videos, books, downloads, etc.

I'm very interested in marketing.

I've never hidden how I make a livin'. I just don't promote it here on InspectionNews. Indirectly 'off-topic posters' do that.

Now... back to the thread topic. (which seems to bring out inspectors who hardly post - )

I think a short video about the SOP is highly effective - it sets the clients expectations, it describes the SOP (in an elevator speech format) - which is all any potential client can handle online.

Not to stick up for Ben, but he did own a home inspection company for many years in PA and he was also an ASHI member up untill a few years ago.

I believe the ASHI's SOP is very good.
And I don't believe the word "perfect" or "fine" is in the ASHI SOP. (good!)

As Scott said, I got some mileage out of using the "I'm an ASHI member" in my inspection business.
But I had to leave when the fees skyrocketed.
The ROI just wasn't there for me.

In short - associations should provide (i) access to training, (ii) discounts on insurance, (iii) marketing tools, and (iii) sometimes a collective voice in legal issues - for set fee - and then step aside.

I've been working hard on the 'training' and 'marketing' parts.

And one thing I'm promoting (here and everywhere) is that online video is essential in marketing. If used well, a short video on an inspector's site will be highly effective in converting site visitors into clients.

Ben, I know you keep saying you have nothing to do with nachi but here it says that you are the director of on-line education.

International Association of Certified Home Inspectors (InterNACHI)

Originally Posted by Mark Mustola

Ben, I know you keep saying you have nothing to do with nachi but here it says that you are the director of on-line education.

International Association of Certified Home Inspectors (InterNACHI)

Nope.
I've never said that I have nothing to do with InterNACHI.
People have said that I'm employed by InterNACHI. I am not.
I've been the Director of Education for 2-3 years now.
I volunteer my time as such.

Back to the thread... Mark, I can not find your website? Do you have one? If not, then embedding a video about "What is a Home Inspection?" wouldn't be of help. BTW, I suggest having a link to your website inside your signature for this message board. Why? This board is essentially an awesome lead generator for inspectors. I did a Google search of "Should I make one for the ASHI Standards?" and this thread and InspectionNews popped up #1. Potential clients are searching for inspectors. Help them find you with a link to your site in your signature. ... Just an aside thought...
google-search-for-this-thread-ben-gromicko.jpg

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

I use the SOP to set the client's expectations.
Some clients actually believe inspectors inspect everything.
Many first-time homebuyers sincerely believe that there are no limitations to our inspection.
Having a easy-to-understand introduction to the SOP, which in great detail describes limitations, exclusions and exceptions, only helps guide their understanding.

Offering the SOP, just as it is, does not help towards that goal. What client actually reads that thing? I suspect very few. And if that's the case, and if that's what I believe, then it's my obligation to help my clients understand why they hired me prior to the inspection.

I think video helps my client towards that end.

I like this video too.... YouTube - What Really Matters at a Home Inspection

Why does this video have the 'embed' feature disabled?
Can we not put this video on our website?


If not, why not?

Mike

So far the only thing I dislike about this forum is the
fact that Ben Gromicko is using it as his private showroom.

mf.

Here's a quote:
Regarding our thread on number of inspections - do the math!

quote [2006 - Present. Certified Master Inspector®. Home - Certified Master Inspector Over 8,000 home inspections performed since 1995.] end quote

As far as I know - Ben Gromicko is the only inspector in America who is in a
position to certify himself as a Master Inspector.

Is he an ASHI Certified Master Inspector - That might impress me.
According to the quote above Ben has performed and average of 44 home inspections
each and every month for the last 15 years.

Gee Ben - did you preform 44 inspection this month?
Now, That would really impress me.

mf

Originally Posted by matt faust

Here's a quote:
Regarding our thread on number of inspections - do the math!

quote [2006 - Present. Certified Master Inspector®. Home - Certified Master Inspector Over 8,000 home inspections performed since 1995.] end quote

As far as I know - Ben Gromicko is the only inspector in America who is in a
position to certify himself as a Master Inspector.

Is he an ASHI Certified Master Inspector - That might impress me.
According to the quote above Ben has performed and average of 44 home inspections
each and every month for the last 15 years.

Gee Ben - did you preform 44 inspection this month?
Now, That would really impress me.

mf

Ben isn't even a member of ASHI. Thank goodness. He may have been a good Inspector at one time. I do not believe he is today. The only organization that says they have a Master Inspectors Program is interNACHI. And it is not a qualified Program. So the master inspector means nothing. My twelve year old grandson passed there test. And I do not believe I would want him as a Home Inspector. If these Inspectors want all these little badges that say they belong to these third rate Associations good for them.
Bruce

Here in California we have CREIA
California Real Estate Inspection Association
Visit their web site.
Many CREIA inspectors also maintain ASHI membership for additional credibility.

CREIA has a Master Certified Inspector program.
There are multiple experience requirements before you can even apply for
the exam. And I know very qualified inspectors who had to take it twice.

If I scrolled down a list of my 20 favorite inspectors 15 of them would be MCI's.
I was a real complainer as a CREIA Inspector.
But, when I compare the standard of care and truly excellent, hands on,
educational value of being a CREIA member - I never had it so good.

The greatest value for me was going to dinner meetings and rubbing elbows with
some of the best and brightest inspectors in America,
just conversing with these guys motivated me to raise my standards, again and again.

Some self serving hot shots make a living charging fees for information that
they present, but essentially - haven't mastered.

In CREIA I could talk to guys like Jim Farmer for hours, and be exposed to
a body of knowledge and a standard of care that was truly awesome.
You could study a subject, for example "grounding" and take it to a meeting
and these guys would destroy you. "Good try kid - see ya at the next CREIA
educational conference!"
It was an honor to know them and great fun trying to win their respect.

It's one thing to emulate men like Jim Farmer, it's quite another to
impersonate them. And that is a singular fact of life that Ben Germicko will
never understand.

mf

Originally Posted by Bruce Adams

Ben isn't even a member of ASHI. Thank goodness. He may have been a good Inspector at one time. I do not believe he is today. The only organization that says they have a Master Inspectors Program is interNACHI. And it is not a qualified Program. So the master inspector means nothing. My twelve year old grandson passed there test. And I do not believe I would want him as a Home Inspector. If these Inspectors want all these little badges that say they belong to these third rate Associations good for them.
Bruce

about ASHI... since you brought it up... I was a member of ASHI for years, until they skyrocketed the fee. I was not getting a good ROI, so I had to leave. It seemed to me as an ASHI inspector that ASHI decided to promote ASHI to the public with the rationale that it would, somehow, benefit its members. But home inspectors need to be promoted more than home inspector associations.

about my past...since you brought it up... Before getting married, I would inspect 7 days a week, 3 home inspections a day (not including ancillary inspections). Except Sunday during Steelers football season. What a blast. Now I help inspectors achieve success and maintain inspection excellence through making online education and marketing strategies available.

I no longer perform property inspections for a living.

about CMI®... since you brought it up... The Master Inspector Certification Board, Inc. is a non-profit 501(c)(6), tax-exempt organization, which holds the registered Trademark Certified Master Inspector® (CMI).

about credentials... The last person who I care about impressing with "credentials" is another home inspector.

Gather up all the professional designations, association logos, government licenses, membership levels, and certifications you can find. Lay them all out on your Aunt Wilma's dining room table. Ask her which one she thinks belongs to the very best inspector.

You'll get the same answer everyone else gets when they do this market research.

Certified Master Inspector®, and I am one.

Originally Posted by Mike Gault

Why does this video have the 'embed' feature disabled?
Can we not put this video on our website?If not, why not?
Mike

Mike, there's jibberish on your homepage. Attached pic of your homepage.
Thought you might want to clean that up. I noticed other things on your site that need improvement too. If you need some pointers, email me ben@nachi.tv. We provide lots of help to inspectors with their websites and brochures - all free, and downloadable info too. So, don't worry about embedding video; get a good foundation laid first.

Website is critical to an inspector's business. It's typically the way you make a first impression, and you don't get a second chance.
a-website-is-critical-bengromicko.jpg

about CMI®... since you brought it up... The Master Inspector Certification Board, Inc. is a non-profit 501(c)(6), tax-exempt organization, which holds the registered Trademark Certified Master Inspector® (CMI).


GOD - ENOUGH, ENOUGH................

Let me see the credentials of the board who certifies your inspectors.
Let me see the credentials of the board who conducts the oral examinations.
Let me see the prerequisite qualifications you must have before you can
test.
Let me see your credentials, Ben - what credible inspection industry body
certifies that you know your head from your A_ _.

"Certified Master Inspector"

CERTIFIED BY WHO????????????????


mf
passed CREIA CERTIFIED INSPECTOR
passed ASHI CERTIFIED INSPECTOR
passed IHIA CERTIFIED INSPECTOR
Licensed Geneal Contractor
IRC'ICC M1 Certified Mechanical Inspector
Instructor - Contractor State Licensing School
(Home Inspection course)
(General Contractor Prep Course)
(Blue Print Reading Course)

Originally Posted by matt faust

about CMI®... since you brought it up... The Master Inspector Certification Board, Inc. is a non-profit 501(c)(6), tax-exempt organization, which holds the registered Trademark Certified Master Inspector® (CMI).


GOD - ENOUGH, ENOUGH................

Let me see the credentials of the board who certifies your inspectors.
Let me see the credentials of the board who conducts the oral examinations.
Let me see the prerequisite qualifications you must have before you can
test.
Let me see your credentials, Ben - what credible inspection industry body
certifies that you know your head from your A_ _.

"Certified Master Inspector"

CERTIFIED BY WHO????????????????

You're missing something about marketing and credentials.

about credentials... The last person who I care about impressing with "credentials" is another home inspector.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

You're missing something about marketing and credentials.

about credentials... The last person who I care about impressing with "credentials" is another home inspector.

This is the last time that I am replying to this thread. Ben I see you are not thought of very highly by true Inspectors. And I do not believe you would be able to understand a good inspector.
First off anyone can register a trade mark it is done every day. And you have a tax exemt number. So what does that mean for CMI. It is a third rate Organization that you can join for a fee and call yourself a certified master inspector still does not mean anything.
Is there test administered by a third party. Is there test qualified by the government. Is it truly based on the industry. Is it a proctored test.
There is a reason that ASHI does not have there own test anymore. There are many things that ASHI needs to work on. Available education is one of them. And they are working on that. And thank goodness your not on that board.
There is a reason that that ASHI. CREIA, and CASHI are seen as the top organizations. And why that peace of paper on the wall means something. And when you pass there test you are glad too show it to others and say I did it. When you have something to impress me let me know.
Bruce

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

You're missing something about marketing and credentials.

about credentials... The last person who I care about impressing with "credentials" is another home inspector.

Hear's a little FREE marketing info for you.
New inspectors are impressed with anything someone has to say, even with little or no inspection experence at all.
Before marketing a product a professional marketing person figures out what the group of people needs that he/she is selling their product to

Your dealing with the I.N. crowd on this site.
The I.N. guys /gals are way beyond being impressed with an org that pushes worthless logos, an org. that offers instant on-line certs, and an org that pushes free[thats' not free] basic education, that they know they needed to know long before they are marketed to the public as professional certified home inspectors.
Considering that you are coming here attempting to sell your crap to Experienced Professional Home Inspectors, maybe you should start spending some time improving your " credentials'" on the nacho site and practice impressing the newbys there. While your at it, take your brother, opps I mean Lisa with you

Originally Posted by Bruce Adams

... So what does that mean for CMI. It is a third rate Organization that you can join for a fee and call yourself a certified master inspector still does not mean anything. ...

Nope.
Check your facts.

IMHO, there's only one reason to call yourself a CMI®, certified master inspector.
Do you know it?

Originally Posted by Dan Harris

....
The I.N. guys /gals are way beyond being impressed with an org that pushes worthless logos, an org. that offers instant on-line certs, and an org that pushes free[thats' not free] basic education, that they know they needed to know long before they are marketed to the public as professional certified home inspectors....

I disagree.
Logos are worthless if you miss the point of their primary use.

IMHO, there's one primary reason to use a logo?
Do you know what it is?

Tell ya what Ben.............

I checked out multiple items you have on the net.
Items which are intended to be educational, and to some degree are.

However, relatively specking, no offense intended,
they were of poor quality.

In fact, one, which was featuring the blond young lady,
was embarrassingly bad.
I felt like I was watching my 12 year old daughter.

You don't appear to take seriously the reaction you receive from
experienced HI's - but most of us have seen hundreds of educational
video clips, 99% of which are of a higher quality than yours.

So, even if I put aside my bias toward you as the force behind internachi.....
(which most credible inspectors consider to be more of a scam than an association.)
You still come off as a hacker.

By the way - your inspector insurance thing might actually be illegal.

Doesn't it concern you that people in this industry have such a low opinion of you.
Is it more difficult to market legitimate product than this stuff.

From here on in - I'm just going to ignore you.

mf

Originally Posted by matt faust

...
From here on in - I'm just going to ignore you.
mf

Cool.
I'm glad that you've almost approached 50 posts with me.

Originally Posted by matt faust

Tell ya what Ben.............


By the way - your inspector insurance thing might actually be illegal.

mf

I believe it was found to be illegal in AZ and a few other states. NO Problemo, for ole Ben and Nicko they just has their lawyers change the wording of the exact same product , then told everyone, it's now legal and we now have more coverage send us more $s.

I wish that Benjamin & his dad would take over the Internet marketing for ASHI, Man what a team that would be! Don't get me wrong, it will never happen but you got to admit, together, with ASHI longevity and reputation with the Gromicko's marketing for-site and sales approach to the end user, there would be Mandatory Home Inspection for every home sold in the Good Old USA! One can only dream

Nick J Alati
Alati's Inspection Service LLC
Phoenix Home Inspector, Arizona Commercial Inspections, AZ Property Inspectors, HUD, FHA, VA Alati’s Inspection Service LLC

"IMHO, there's only one reason to call yourself a CMI®, certified master inspector.
IMHO, there's one primary reason to use a logo?
Do you know what it is?"

Yes, I think I do.
Marketing
The use of Logo's and associations add to ones creditability, at least in the general publics view.
CMI sounds more like a designation of accomplishment than it does a membership. Therefore the public believes you have achieved a level of honor reserved for only a few well qualified professionals.
Some may think it is deceptive, but it is marketing in the most basic way.

I think that most of us will agree that certifications have been made a mockery of in our profession and in many others. In today's society everyone wants instant recognition with as little effort as possible. Everyone is a winner, or they think they are....

If you have ever been to a youth sporting event, it will not take long for you to see how the everyone is a winner concept has been fostered. Even the loosing team get a trophy nowadays.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

I think that most of us will agree that certifications have been made a mockery of in our profession and in many others. In today's society everyone wants instant recognition with as little effort as possible. Everyone is a winner, or they think they are....

If you have ever been to a youth sporting event, it will not take long for you to see how the everyone is a winner concept has been fostered. Even the loosing team get a trophy nowadays.

Amen

The boy that hits the longest ball to the boy that cannot hit even one ball all get the exact nourishing. Nourishing in the sense like the tremendous praise that the multi home run hitter gets. Instead of striving for the top spot they get comfortable sitting on the bench believing that they are simply awesome.

I see it in my own niece and nephews teams they get on. I see it in a store when little Johny should be taken out back but instead mommy is trying to so calmly talk thru the temper tantrum explaining to little Johny how so not nice it is to be annoying everyone within a store the size of Sam's Club with his outrageous fit.

I see it at the middle or end of the school year where everyone gets honored. No one gets pushed. No one ever finding the true meaning of accomplishment.

Yes maybe things were a bit more brutal years ago and not so "progressive" as they are now but was that really all so bad?

"Progressive". I am truly beginning to hate that word.

Ted,
I'm removing my post - as out of context for this forum.
I suggest you do also.
Sounds like you have a great family - all the best.

mf

Matt & Ted,

You two can PM each other and work out your differences of raising children. This thread isn't the place.

Thanks!

Sorry Brian - you are absolutely correct.

mf

How about a short as possible video with those homebuyer FAQ's with still shots mixed in on what the following components are: what a PRV is, what a thermal expansion tank does, why all the communication cables dangling on the outside of the home, why I don't care why there's no phone or cable jack in the guest bedroom, why this crack and that crack in the concrete is insignicant, why I can't answer "would you buy this house?", how to use the end levers to tilt a single-hung window, questions about types of fireplaces in homes and how to operate them (needs its own video), what are those ugly pipes sticking out of the soffits or walls, why the main electrical disconnect is outside and available for anyone to shut the power off? (female buyers always shocked) why there's no insulation over the unconditioned garage, why there's blown insulation in the attic ceiling, etc.