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  1. #1
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default An insider's outside view ?

    After inspecting home for more then 30 years as a Branch #3 Calif. Termite inspector and in and out of the home inspection Business for about the same.

    I see something that is odd about the home inspection business that is not found in any other inspection business.

    In my Termite inspection company i never give a crap about some one getting a copy of one of my termite reports. In fact the More people that see my report the better.

    We have another post ( Inspecting the same home twice ) And what we see in the Comments posted ( is no one is going to see my report but the client.)

    We see inspectors statements that the Texas State licensing dept. only
    permits the client and the inspector to have a copy of the inspection report.

    Then we have Calif. that has no State Home Inspectors licensing dept.

    And we have a law on the books ( Historical Document )

    This law along with a few others makes the HI report all but a public document.

    Our Calif. Attorneys advise us to give any new client a copy of any past inspection reports before we start a new Home Inspection. (FREE OF CHARGE)

    And we have case law that Real Estate Agent and HI. Have been sued for trans action and/or inspection 5 or 10 or 15 years back.

    But you say ( I'm only legally responsible or liable damage caused by my action FOR 4 Years. In some states Like Calif 2 years from the date of discovery. Check your state laws.


    I must say guys. At what point will we stand up and say STOP! to all this crape...

    The Real Estate lobbyist in just about every state has put the Home Inspector at the bottom of the barrel


    Best

    Ron

    Similar Threads:
    Inspection Referral

  2. #2
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    After inspecting home for more then 30 years as a Branch #3 Calif. Termite inspector and in and out of the home inspection Business for about the same.

    I see something that is odd about the home inspection business that is not found in any other inspection business.

    In my Termite inspection company i never give a crap about some one getting a copy of one of my termite reports. In fact the More people that see my report the better.

    We have another post ( Inspecting the same home twice ) And what we see in the Comments posted ( is no one is going to see my report but the client.)

    We see inspectors statements that the Texas State licensing dept. only
    permits the client and the inspector to have a copy of the inspection report.

    Then we have Calif. that has no State Home Inspectors licensing dept.

    And we have a law on the books ( Historical Document )

    This law along with a few others makes the HI report all but a public document.

    Our Calif. Attorneys advise us to give any new client a copy of any past inspection reports before we start a new Home Inspection. (FREE OF CHARGE)

    And we have case law that Real Estate Agent and HI. Have been sued for trans action and/or inspection 5 or 10 or 15 years back.

    But you say ( I'm only legally responsible or liable damage caused by my action FOR 4 Years. In some states Like Calif 2 years from the date of discovery. Check your state laws.


    I must say guys. At what point will we stand up and say STOP! to all this crape...

    The Real Estate lobbyist in just about every state has put the Home Inspector at the bottom of the barrel


    Best

    Ron
    Ron

    I won't start preaching about how Realtors should be held criminally liable if ever proven they refer any home inspector or groups of inspector and lose their license for such an offense. They should be so far removed from the home inspection other than giving their client a paper to sign saying that it is of their best interest tyo have a home inspection performed and on that paper it would state that it is against state law to refer any home inspector, list of, or home inspector association.

    It is high time the Realtors are stopped.

    Now say "thank you Ted" for not going on and on and on.

    You are welcom Ron.


  3. #3

    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post

    I must say guys. At what point will we stand up and say STOP! to all this crape...
    The Real Estate lobbyist in just about every state has put the Home Inspector at the bottom of the barrel
    Best
    Ron
    The reason is simple. Home inspectors have allowed it to happen. Many have encouraged it by doing soft inspections and kissing ass. The closest thing to a good HI regulation is in Mass where the realtwhores have to keep an arms length position.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Ron Bibler,

    I can see how as a LICENSED termite inspector, the termite INSPECTION REPORT can become a HISTORICAL document for the property. Yep, yessire. Termite infestations, prior damage, irradication efforts, etc. are subject to manditory disclosure, and for REO and other as-is situations - the state may with whatever this historical document stuff is that you're talking about (you haven't provided even a citation, link, or anything so I'm shooting blind here) would make sense. It would not surprise me that California might similarly require safekeeping, discoverable, retention or even require recordation of either a discovered infestation especially of a non-domestic or invasive species and/or application of pesticides on a residential property.

    However, IIRC, residential home inspection is not licensed or regulated in california, and neither is the contracting, reporting, document retention, etc. and home inspection reports, RIGHT??? If the legislature has in their wisdom chosen or elected to not regulate, license, etc. residential home inspectors, or the act of home inspection, it does not make sense that there could be an all encompasing law requiring home inspectors to file as public record their home inspection reports, or a mandate to retain them beyond any normal business record or business activity???

    Home Inspection reports are by their very nature when regards to potential purchaser - in no way required to be disclosed in whole or in part to any other party outside of the contractee. If the potential purchaser choses to not accept the reported condition of the property, they may walk from the transaction, again, in no way mandating disclosure or sharing of the report. If a HO contracts for one, and something is identified as being a problem, which would require disclosure in a RE transaction, then perhaps yes you might be called upon to produce said report at a later date for a court case. However, if said HO then brought in all the related professionals that would normally be referred to for any such "disclosure-able" "defect", "concern" etc. and said professionals said, reported, documented for the HO "it isn't so", then that's up to the HO and their legal advisor to sort out what if anything must be disclosed at the time of sale.

    I think you may be confusing your activities in WDI with HI.

    Please provide us with some sort of reference material, a link, a citation, something, about this "historical document" reference you have made on a few topics.

    I have heard of no such legislated requirement regarding potential purchasers of real estate or their chosen HI professional, being mandated to share any part of a HI report, let alone the entire report, with any party, including the seller, or any RE in the process, or being mandated to file it upon a public record.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-19-2011 at 04:44 PM.

  5. #5
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    Cool Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Dear HG

    Ron is not confused, but rather you are. California Home Inspectors may not be licensed, but do come under the CA Business & Professions Code 7195-7199. See below.

    California Business & Professions Code 7195-7199 | April 2010 Inspector eNews

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  6. #6
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    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Yawn.

    Any Home inspection organization or association, not just those named.

    No mention of some sort of requirement to record a HI report, HIs unlicensed, therefore connection to "Historical Documents" for residential real estate 1-4 family; and/or duty to retain or record Inspection Report as public record "leap" still not made.

    And the 4-year reference is only to breach of duty claims having to be filed w/in 4 years of inspection date (there can be others).

    We've discussed this before. I've even cited that portion before. Not news, and not "confused", still no connection to the topic of "Historical" (or is it hysterical) "Documents".

    Double yawn.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-19-2011 at 06:16 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    After inspecting home for more then 30 years as a Branch #3 Calif. Termite inspector and in and out of the home inspection Business for about the same.

    And we have a law on the books ( Historical Document )

    This law along with a few others makes the HI report all but a public document.

    Our Calif. Attorneys advise us to give any new client a copy of any past inspection reports before we start a new Home Inspection. (FREE OF CHARGE)
    Ron,

    Again, kind of ignoring the obvious side-rail diversion,

    I believe you are referring to your Termite Inspections/Reports and Real estate transactions required disclosures by sellers.

    And yes, due to the possiblity it has been used as an 1102.4(c) disclosure, and good business practice for one in structural pest control, it is a good thing that you do so. However it has nothing to do with regular residential 1-4 family home inspectors/inspections, which as we've already reconfirmed, are not licensed professionals or for that matter "experts", licensed or unlicensed; in California.

    1102.4(c) disclosures do not apply to Home Inspectors, especially those who do not agree or state same, and even if it did, it would only apply if performing on behalf of the seller to be disclosed to the potential buyer, not a Home Inspection contracted by and for a potential purchaser. An HI isn't serving to substitute or fullfil the disclosure requirements of the seller to the purchaser (transferee) when paid for and working solely for the buyer! Certainly not without agreement amongst all the parties including the HI and what HI would ever agree to that...the liability and potential conflicts internal and otherwise, could be tremendous!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1102.4(c) Calif. Civil Code

    (c) The delivery of a report or opinion prepared by a licensed engineer, land surveyor, geologist, structural pest control operator, contractor, or other expert, dealing with matters within the scope of the professional's license or expertise, shall be sufficient compliance for application of the exemption provided by subdivision (a) if the information is provided to the prospective transferee pursuant to a request therefor, whether written or oral. In responding to such a request, an expert may indicate, in writing, an understanding that the information provided will be used in fulfilling the requirements of Section 1102.6 and, if so, shall indicate the required disclosures, or parts thereof, to which the information being furnished is applicable. Where such a statement is furnished, the expert shall not be responsible for any items of information, or parts thereof, other than those expressly set forth in the statement.
    Now if a California Home Inspector, who is not othewise licensed, is "in the business" of doing pre-sale home inspections, and consenting to and allowing their 'Home inspection report" to serve as a Sellers substitute disclosure...That's a dicey situation. Debated IIRC by the legislature back in 2000 or 2002, and a liability quagmire and I'd guess not imdenified by one's insurance, kind of flies in the face of the SOPs and CoEs for most "recognized" ome Inspection orginizations, doesn't it?

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-19-2011 at 07:40 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Ron,
    Under your understanding of "Historical Doc" a contractor providing a written estimate that describes the defect that is to be repaired would be a "Historical Doc", since the contractor inspected the defect and provided a written report (estimate). Is this correct?


  9. #9
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    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Ron,
    Under your understanding of "Historical Doc" a contractor providing a written estimate that describes the defect that is to be repaired would be a "Historical Doc", since the contractor inspected the defect and provided a written report (estimate). Is this correct?
    You are correct Garry. Any information by a contractor or a handyman
    on a paper, photo that describes a property in any way is now part of the properties history.

    Best

    Ron


  10. #10
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    You are correct Garry. Any information by a contractor or a handyman
    on a paper, photo that describes a property in any way is now part of the properties history.

    Best

    Ron
    Totally impossible and will never be able to be accounted for.......But it will keep those gov workers in a job....HUH.


  11. #11
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Totally impossible and will never be able to be accounted for.......But it will keep those gov workers in a job....HUH.
    Ted you overlook the point. These files, home inspection reports, termite report photos and other documents like them are all in the real estate agents files or in at the escrow files. Some agents keep files for a long time and others drop them in file #13

    Best

    Ron


  12. #12
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    Ted you overlook the point. These files, home inspection reports, termite report photos and other documents like them are all in the real estate agents files or in at the escrow files. Some agents keep files for a long time and others drop them in file #13

    Best

    Ron

    No Ron. I did not miss the point. The point I was making is that it is insanity. A quagmire to say the least. Mountains of paper work stored over time by a multitude of people. More bureaucracy to say the very least. More Government control. More paper trails everywhere. Some poor schmo that loses a paper and is found in contempt for not keeping better track of their already mountain of paper work they have to keep.

    No, I did not miss the point. I think I used the proper term in response on another thread. It is not Historical Documents it is more Hysterical Government Documents. Everyone who ever found a concern in the home and a fix mentioned or done over and over and over and over time.

    Simple insanity. If the Realtors and all involved in a sale of a piece of property has to do it then everyone ever involved in the home has to do it. Do you see the seriousness of this government accountability forced on the people and not for itself. Can you say keeping track of everyone on the planet for everything they ever do??????

    Disclosure should be good enough. Most of the time it is somewhat honest full disclosure but then on occasion there will be something intentionally left out. That's life.

    Time for the Gov to step back off of their little pastilles and give it a rest and go after the things that really matter. Not someone that patched over a crack. God man, what are they thinking. Go after all else out there. God knows there is plenty of goings on in California to keep track of that really matter and will make a difference.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Correct me if wrong. (I love CA and some of their screwy ideas)
    Person selling house fails to disclose to buyer an estimate the seller had for some repair, though not done. The Buyer is not given that estimate as part of the property disclosure process. The Buyer (after sale closes) finds out about estimate and gets copy. The Buyer then can sue the seller to have that repair done since it was not disclosed and was a Historical Document that the seller was obligated to disclose to the Buyer at time of sale. The non disclosure would be determined as fraud committed as part of the sale.

    P.S.: Does the 1099 that will be sent if the inspection cost was $600 or more become part of the historical documents??????


  14. #14
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Correct me if wrong. (I love CA and some of their screwy ideas)
    Person selling house fails to disclose to buyer an estimate the seller had for some repair, though not done. The Buyer is not given that estimate as part of the property disclosure process. The Buyer (after sale closes) finds out about estimate and gets copy. The Buyer then can sue the seller to have that repair done since it was not disclosed and was a Historical Document that the seller was obligated to disclose to the Buyer at time of sale. The non disclosure would be determined as fraud committed as part of the sale.

    P.S.: Does the 1099 that will be sent if the inspection cost was $600 or more become part of the historical documents??????
    Gary if the seller covered up the work and did not disclosed the information then he could get sued. Your looking at this from another set of eyes. I think it would be a long shot on something that small as you describe. but ad a value to your description and I think you may have a case.

    I do think that all of this is in the spirit of this law

    Best

    Ron


  15. #15
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    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    Gary if the seller covered up the work and did not disclosed the information then he could get sued. Your looking at this from another set of eyes. I think it would be a long shot on something that small as you describe. but ad a value to your description and I think you may have a case.

    I do think that all of this is in the spirit of this law

    Best

    Ron

    100 year old house that has settled and now is out of level. Structural sound but long term as remodeling is done there will be problems with dealing in the slopes. The seller had contractor who said that the best thing would be to jack and re-level house so that new work would look better and be less expensive to do since sloping floors would not have to be dealt with.

    Seller thinks that it is better to spend money on new house rather than deal with old. Puts house on market and does not disclose "Estimate as Historical Doc". Buyer not told that the out of level house is a remodeling nightmare by virtue of the Seller's Contractor's Estimates. If issue is weather Seller paid for estimate then yes paid for estimate. Relying on disclosure of all "Historical Documents" . Buyer's argument is that price would have been less if the Buyer had seen the Estimates. Buyer sees that house is out of level. Issue is not having the "Historical Documentation" as part of disclosure documents.

    Seller libel for not disclosing?
    Contractor responsible to maintain documents, else libel?
    Realtor libel ?


  16. #16
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    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Seller is liable for failing to disclose known (to him) issues regarding the property which would have significant impact to any prospective purchaser. The buyer has to demonstrate a financial injury, which would not have occurred had they been made aware of all the defects prior to the purchase. Their loss, however, is somewhat mitigated if they failed to perform (have performed) their own due dilligence prior to an accepted offer and subsequent purchase. Failure to provide the written estimate serves to demonstrate the seller's willingness to hide material fact. Had the issue been disclosed, in a proper manner, but without the estimate, the seller may still be held liable but to a lesser degree. After all it is just an estimate for corrective measures and not necessarily a complete evaluation or structural engineer's report. Estimates can vary widely but the buyer would have to contend that they would have relied on this estimate alone before making an offer.

    Contractor is in the clear - he has no duty to the buyer - unless he colludes with the seller to keep his big yap shut and disclaim any knowledge about the deficiencies.

    Realtor - likely to be sued as being a party to the transaction in which they have a fiduciary interest - but liability is minimal he he/she didn't know or was not reasonably expected to know about the defect(s). Obviously he they were aware of 'something amiss' no matter how small - either from their own independent observation or having been advised by the seller - and failed to disclose, then bend over...

    (p.s. libel is written or printed matter made public with intent to unjustly injure a reputation).


  17. #17
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    Default Re: An insider's outside view ?

    Ian,
    I tend not to proof read before I post. Thanks.

    The entire nature of the "Historical Document" and how far reaching it can be will be of real interest ans time goes by and the law suits develop.


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