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  1. #1
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    Default Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by ASHI Reporter

    Florida to Require Home Inspector Licensing
    by Bob Kociolek

    Published August 2007

    In 2010, Florida will become the 32nd state to regulate home inspectors. Unfortunately, in our opinion, the bill signed by the governor in June of this year gives Florida inspectors and the public one of the worst licensing bills in the country. Florida ASHI members and their leaders have been beating back bad bills for years, but this year they were up against overwhelming forces. The good guys don’t always win.

    You can read the full article here.

    As a Certified ASHI member, local ASHI board member and a fifth year Florida home inspector I am saddened that we were unable to prevent this bill that serves no apparent worthwhile purpose from becoming law. Furthermore, the associations who promoted this bill have won the hollowest of victories and have heaped shame upon themselves by helping the passage of the worst licensing bill in this nation’s history.

    The true leaders of this state are now faced with the task of somehow trying to make something out of the mess left in the wake of this bills passage. One of the things that I would like to see take place is any group who worked in any way to support the passage of this bill should be excluded from future talks based on their poor judgment.


    Joe Burkeson


    Discussion encouraged.

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  2. #2
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Using that logic... as someone who has opposed ANY KIND of inspector licensing, you should be excluded no matter what.

    Everyone, irrespective of past mistakes, should be put into the forum of advancing the profession... not just those who have agreed with or against the current legislation. My opinion is those who are in need of remedial training regarding the ramifications of having such a watered down bill, should be the ones re-educated on the 'whys' and 'hows' the bill will negatively impact the profession and public.

    BTW--I wasn't aware that ASHI 'certified' it's members. I thought it was just a plain ole member who has met certain requirements BEFORE being dubbed a full Member-- didn't know certification existed. Shows what I knew about ASHI.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Its Official - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Rushing View Post
    BTW--I wasn't aware that ASHI 'certified' it's members. I thought it was just a plain ole member who has met certain requirements BEFORE being dubbed a full Member-- didn't know certification existed. Shows what I knew about ASHI.

    Glad I could help in your education, stick around, I still have a few things to teach.


  4. #4
    Bruce Lunsford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    "The next FABI conference is September 7-9 in Boca Raton, Florida. The meeting will be held at the Marriott Boca Raton at Boca Center located at 5150 Town Center Circle/Boca Raton, FL 33486.

    We will have JR Burke, NAHI Legislation Chair, on hand to answer your questions about the new home inspector legislation. "

    I plan on attending this meeting and asking a few tough questions of Mr. Burke.

    I also will NOT be renewing my FABI membership.

    I encourage many to attend this meeting and let Mr. Burke know what you think of this bill. I also encourage other FABI members to not renew their memberships. This is the ONLY true way to let them know of our disaproval.

    FABI was not at all forthcoming with their support of this bill and I am learning they were working behind the scenes to support it, without the knowledge of their membership.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    BTW,

    The effort to orgainize against this was pretty pathetic. I sent emails as did a few others. I think the general HI population doesn't really realize how bad this bill is.

    I think we just got lazy. In the past we knew that Jeb would veto any bad bills like this. Charlie is clearly not as smart or on the ball as Jeb was when it comes to business matters.

    It is not too late, although the road will be rough. I think we need to orgainze, and hire our own lobbiest, then get a new bill through.

    ASHI really has not officially denounced the bill as I understand it. That article was written by a FL ASHI member and published in the Reporter.

    I would like for ASHI to officially come out against this bill. It would make our job of getting a new, better bill written.



    HERE IS THE ARTICLE. YOU CANNOT READ IT UNLESS YOU LOG IN SO I'LL POST IT HERE.


    Florida to Require Home Inspector Licensing
    by Bob Kociolek

    Published August 2007

    In 2010, Florida will become the 32nd state to regulate home inspectors. Unfortunately, in our opinion, the bill signed by the governor in June of this year gives Florida inspectors and the public one of the worst licensing bills in the country. Florida ASHI members and their leaders have been beating back bad bills for years, but this year they were up against overwhelming forces. The good guys don’t always win.

    The following is the e-mail alert that Florida ASHI members sent to Governor Crist, urging him to veto the bill. It gives a good rundown of the new law’s flaws and gives ASHI members a list of things they can do to try to change things before the bill takes effect.

    Letter to the governor of Florida

    I am writing as a Florida member of the American Society of Home Inspectors, the oldest, largest and most-respected professional society of home inspectors in America and in Florida. I have reviewed SB 2234, and I oppose it and urge you to veto it for the following reasons.

    This bill does not protect the consumer. In fact, it will harm the consumer.

    • NO EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS. If this bill passes, anyone can be a state-licensed home Inspector and never have completed a home inspection or even attended a home inspection prior to being licensed. This clearly will harm the consumer.

    • LIMITED EDUCATION REQUIREMENTS. An education requirement of only 120 hours is not adequate. As an example, a hair stylist in Florida needs 1,200 hours annually. To properly inspect homes, an extensive knowledge of the various systems and components in homes of all types and ages is required. This limited educational requirement will harm the consumer.

    • NO PROVISIONS SPECIFYING WHO IS QUALIFIED TO TRAIN HOME INSPECTORS. This may allow for poor or no relevant education to be provided during the minimal training hours required by this bill. This will clearly harm the consumer.

    • NO STANDARDS OF PRACTICE. With no Standards of Practice, what is the consumer paying for? What is to be inspected? How are these items to be inspected? With no Standards of Practice, the consumer will not know what to expect from the home inspector. This clearly will harm the consumer.

    • NO CODE OF ETHICS. Without a Code of Ethics, the consumer may be at risk for a number of potential conflicts of interest. As an example, home inspectors who repair the homes they inspect may lose their objectivity and work for their own interests and not their customer’s. Having no Code of Ethics will clearly harm the consumer.

    • NO PSYCHOMETRICALLY VALID EXAM. This type of testing for home inspectors has been developed over many years. It is used in most other states and is also used by many professional associations to qualify inspectors. The most widely accepted test in use is known as the National Home Inspector Examination. Without proper and valid testing, the consumer may be harmed.

    • WEAK COMPARED TO OTHER STATES. Our parent association, the American Society of Home Inspectors (ASHI), follows home inspector legislation in all states. ASHI rates licensing bills as to educational requirements, experience requirements, ethics training, etc. As written, this bill will be the weakest home inspector legislation in the entire United States. Weak bills harm the consumer.

    EXAMPLE: You are purchasing a home. This possibly will be the biggest investment you will ever make. The safety, comfort, and financial well-being of your family are at stake. You hire a state licensed home inspector to help protect your investment. In your mind, the state has rigorously checked, verified, and certified the qualifications of your home inspector. However, if this bill passes, the inspector may have:

    • never previously inspected a home
    • only completed a three-week course to unknown standards
    • no Standards of Practice to follow
    • no Code of Ethics to follow
    • never completed a psychometrically valid exam

    Given these facts, this bill will mislead and harm the consumer. The consumer would be better off with no state licensing that continues to allow the market and professional associations to regulate the industry. This is preferred to being stuck with a bad law that gives a false sense of security.

    For more information on ASHI’s strict policies and requirements to become a Certified Home Inspector, you can visit its Web site at Home Inspector at American Society of Home Inspectors: American Society Of Home Inspectors, ASHI, ASHI Home Inspection, ASHI Inspector. Many states have mirrored ASHI’s requirements for certification in their legislation. If I can be of any help to you as you move forward with a quality bill that really does good for the consumer, please contact me and I will be glad to assist you any way that I can.

    In the meantime, for the protection of the homebuyers in Florida, I respectfully ask that you veto SB 2234.


    State sessions wind to a close, but don’t let your guard down

    By the end of this month, only seven states — Illinois, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania — will still be in session. If you live or inspect in any of those states, stay on guard for any surprises, either in introduced legislation or in legislation introduced at the last minute. Check with ASHI’s Legislative Action Center for updates and make sure you stay in contact with your lobbyist, if you have one, and with your elected officials. Let them know who you are and what you do and how interested you are in any legislation that affects inspectors.

    Last edited by Bruce Lunsford; 08-18-2007 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Added article text

  6. #6
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    Unhappy Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Ahhhh State Licensing, the cure all. I wish I knew of one trade, service or profession that benefiited consumers by state's licensing its practitioners?

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Lunsford View Post
    FABI was not at all forthcoming with their support of this bill and I am learning they were working behind the scenes to support it, without the knowledge of their membership.
    That is about as far from the truth as one can get.

    Bruce,

    You say you area a FABI member.

    For how long?

    How many FABI meetings have you attended?

    If you attended the meetings, did you *attend* the meetings ... or just 'hang out' outside with a few others?

    FABI and licensing as been discussed at many meetings. FABI *MEMBERS* have even voted on whether or not to support licensing. FABI *MEMBERS* overwhelmingly *VOTED FOR* that course of action and stance.

    Not all FABI members voted for it, one Joe B. did not, then has complained ever since that the vote as not "democratic".

    Huh? Even he cannot explain that statement and stance, as *I* was at at least one or two of the FABI meetings those votes took place and *I* saw *JOE B.* there at one or two of those meetings. If asking all FABI members present to vote on something and those members vote on it ... for the life of me I cannot understand why that *is not* a democratic way of an association working.

    *THE BOARD* did not take that action on their own, *THE MEMBERSHIP* "voted for it".

    Joe B., in not getting his lonely way, considers it to not be democratic if Joe B.'s way is not what the MAJORITY wanted.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Kevin Luce's Avatar
    Kevin Luce Guest

    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Lunsford View Post
    BTW,

    The effort to orgainize against this was pretty pathetic. I sent emails as did a few others. I think the general HI population doesn't really realize how bad this bill is.

    I think we just got lazy. In the past we knew that Jeb would veto any bad bills like this. Charlie is clearly not as smart or on the ball as Jeb was when it comes to business matters.

    It is not too late, although the road will be rough. I think we need to orgainze, and hire our own lobbiest, then get a new bill through.

    ASHI really has not officially denounced the bill as I understand it. That article was written by a FL ASHI member and published in the Reporter.

    I would like for ASHI to officially come out against this bill. It would make our job of getting a new, better bill written.



    HERE IS THE ARTICLE. YOU CANNOT READ IT UNLESS YOU LOG IN SO I'LL POST IT HERE.


    Florida to Require Home Inspector Licensing
    by Bob Kociolek

    Published August 2007

    In 2010, Florida will become the 32nd state to regulate home inspectors. Unfortunately, in our opinion, the bill signed by the governor in June of this year gives Florida inspectors and the public one of the worst licensing bills in the country. Florida ASHI members and their leaders have been beating back bad bills for years, but this year they were up against overwhelming forces. The good guys don’t always win.

    The following is the e-mail alert that Florida ASHI members sent to Governor Crist, urging him to veto the bill. It gives a good rundown of the new law’s flaws and gives ASHI members a list of things they can do to try to change things before the bill takes effect.

    Letter to the governor of Florida

    I am writing as a Florida member of the American Society of Home Inspectors, the oldest, largest and most-respected professional society of home inspectors in America and in Florida. I have reviewed SB 2234, and I oppose it and urge you to veto it for the following reasons.

    This bill does not protect the consumer. In fact, it will harm the consumer.

    • NO EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS. If this bill passes, anyone can be a state-licensed home Inspector and never have completed a home inspection or even attended a home inspection prior to being licensed. This clearly will harm the consumer.

    • LIMITED EDUCATION REQUIREMENTS. An education requirement of only 120 hours is not adequate. As an example, a hair stylist in Florida needs 1,200 hours annually. To properly inspect homes, an extensive knowledge of the various systems and components in homes of all types and ages is required. This limited educational requirement will harm the consumer.

    • NO PROVISIONS SPECIFYING WHO IS QUALIFIED TO TRAIN HOME INSPECTORS. This may allow for poor or no relevant education to be provided during the minimal training hours required by this bill. This will clearly harm the consumer.

    • NO STANDARDS OF PRACTICE. With no Standards of Practice, what is the consumer paying for? What is to be inspected? How are these items to be inspected? With no Standards of Practice, the consumer will not know what to expect from the home inspector. This clearly will harm the consumer.

    • NO CODE OF ETHICS. Without a Code of Ethics, the consumer may be at risk for a number of potential conflicts of interest. As an example, home inspectors who repair the homes they inspect may lose their objectivity and work for their own interests and not their customer’s. Having no Code of Ethics will clearly harm the consumer.

    • NO PSYCHOMETRICALLY VALID EXAM. This type of testing for home inspectors has been developed over many years. It is used in most other states and is also used by many professional associations to qualify inspectors. The most widely accepted test in use is known as the National Home Inspector Examination. Without proper and valid testing, the consumer may be harmed.

    • WEAK COMPARED TO OTHER STATES. Our parent association, the American Society of Home Inspectors (ASHI), follows home inspector legislation in all states. ASHI rates licensing bills as to educational requirements, experience requirements, ethics training, etc. As written, this bill will be the weakest home inspector legislation in the entire United States. Weak bills harm the consumer.

    EXAMPLE: You are purchasing a home. This possibly will be the biggest investment you will ever make. The safety, comfort, and financial well-being of your family are at stake. You hire a state licensed home inspector to help protect your investment. In your mind, the state has rigorously checked, verified, and certified the qualifications of your home inspector. However, if this bill passes, the inspector may have:

    • never previously inspected a home
    • only completed a three-week course to unknown standards
    • no Standards of Practice to follow
    • no Code of Ethics to follow
    • never completed a psychometrically valid exam

    Given these facts, this bill will mislead and harm the consumer. The consumer would be better off with no state licensing that continues to allow the market and professional associations to regulate the industry. This is preferred to being stuck with a bad law that gives a false sense of security.

    For more information on ASHI’s strict policies and requirements to become a Certified Home Inspector, you can visit its Web site at Home Inspector at American Society of Home Inspectors: American Society Of Home Inspectors, ASHI, ASHI Home Inspection, ASHI Inspector. Many states have mirrored ASHI’s requirements for certification in their legislation. If I can be of any help to you as you move forward with a quality bill that really does good for the consumer, please contact me and I will be glad to assist you any way that I can.

    In the meantime, for the protection of the homebuyers in Florida, I respectfully ask that you veto SB 2234.


    State sessions wind to a close, but don’t let your guard down

    By the end of this month, only seven states — Illinois, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania — will still be in session. If you live or inspect in any of those states, stay on guard for any surprises, either in introduced legislation or in legislation introduced at the last minute. Check with ASHI’s Legislative Action Center for updates and make sure you stay in contact with your lobbyist, if you have one, and with your elected officials. Let them know who you are and what you do and how interested you are in any legislation that affects inspectors.

    Wow! With all that, why won't ASHI officially come out against this bill? Getting the big guns behind you sure can't hurt.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Its Official - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Not all FABI members voted for it, one Joe B. did not, then has complained ever since that the vote as not "democratic".


    Saturday night and Jerry Peck is having flashbacks again.

    Jerry,

    I voted with my feet and so did many other disgusted now ex-FABI members, BTW don't eat the purple acid.


    Joe.


  10. #10
    Bruce Lunsford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That is about as far from the truth as one can get.

    Bruce,

    You say you area a FABI member.

    For how long?

    How many FABI meetings have you attended?

    If you attended the meetings, did you *attend* the meetings ... or just 'hang out' outside with a few others?

    FABI and licensing as been discussed at many meetings. FABI *MEMBERS* have even voted on whether or not to support licensing. FABI *MEMBERS* overwhelmingly *VOTED FOR* that course of action and stance.

    Not all FABI members voted for it, one Joe B. did not, then has complained ever since that the vote as not "democratic".

    Huh? Even he cannot explain that statement and stance, as *I* was at at least one or two of the FABI meetings those votes took place and *I* saw *JOE B.* there at one or two of those meetings. If asking all FABI members present to vote on something and those members vote on it ... for the life of me I cannot understand why that *is not* a democratic way of an association working.

    *THE BOARD* did not take that action on their own, *THE MEMBERSHIP* "voted for it".

    Joe B., in not getting his lonely way, considers it to not be democratic if Joe B.'s way is not what the MAJORITY wanted.

    Jerry, I appreciate your input here. I realize that I may not have all of my facts correct, so where I am wrong, please do correct me.

    Exactly WHAT did the FABI membership vote for? Pursuit of licensing in general or did they vote for this particular license bill?

    Can you show me where this was written about in the newsletter?

    A true membership vote would have involved a membership mailing and vote. I never received anything.

    From my point of view this was pretty much done in secret. I've been a member for about 2 years now and never once - did I ever - read anything about FABI's support of this. Sorry but I will disagree on this.

    If FABI were truly up front about it, there would have been regular updates to the membership as to what they were doing. If they had been ethical about it, they would have allowed a pro and con debate before any vote.

    Here's what I really don't understand. NAHI was the main force behind this from what I can tell, FABI the secondary. NAHI sent emails to home inspectors encouraging them to write to their representatives in support. If Joe *truly* was opposed to this, why was NAHI so dead on set in their support? Why didn't Joe influence NAHI?

    Do YOU think this particular bill is a good bill?

    Thanks Jerry.


  11. #11
    Bruce Lunsford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Ahhhh State Licensing, the cure all. I wish I knew of one trade, service or profession that benefiited consumers by state's licensing its practitioners?
    While I see no need for licensing, I am not against a *good* license law. This is a pathetic law that will seriously damage our profession for years to come.

    Other states that enacted poor license laws have seriously suffered. Chicago tripled the number of inspectors, AZ suffered tremendously, as have other states like Wisconsin with it's original bill.

    There is a long history of the HI profession getting devisated by poor license laws. People with their minds already made up ignore the facts and charge head on.

    It's really pathetic how many people do not do their homework and just blindly support these bad bills.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Lunsford View Post
    A true membership vote would have involved a membership mailing and vote. I never received anything.
    No, a true membership vote is taken at EVERY quarterly meeting when needed from attendees at the meeting. New business, old business, when something needs to be voted on, those who take the time to attend the meetings are the ones who get asked for their vote.

    You are thinking of the way officers and directors are elected and voted on.

    From my point of view this was pretty much done in secret.
    How many meetings did you attend?

    I've been a member for about 2 years now and never once - did I ever - read anything about FABI's support of this. Sorry but I will disagree on this.
    How many meetings did you attend?

    If FABI were truly up front about it, there would have been regular updates to the membership as to what they were doing.
    They do.

    How many meetings did you attend?

    If they had been ethical about it, they would have allowed a pro and con debate before any vote.
    They did.

    How many meetings did you attend?

    Do YOU think this particular bill is a good bill?
    Nope.

    I worked for licensing for about 10-12 years, let's see, from the beginning in 1990-91 during the Sunrise Study, through to about 3-4 years ago.

    I presented a bill to everyone which was a strict licensing bill, modeled after the contractors licensing law. Creating two or three categories of home inspectors (the two or three was a choice to be decided on), with home inspectors who would be allowed to inspect new homes having one or more code certifications (after all *NEW* homes are built to code, or should be, and thus should be inspected with knowledge of that code, additionally, this would have put the home builders association in with us as they would then recognize those home inspectors and work with us on new home inspections - we had a FABI member who was working with the home builders association members and board for that very goal and was achieving it).

    Also, *I* think that *ALL* home inspectors "who are in business on the day that licensing becomes effective" should be grandfathered in. There is nothing wrong with grandfathering in, the same people currently "doing inspections" would "still be doing those same inspections" - nothing would be lost or "bad" about that.

    Licensing is not "to protect ones turf', nor is licensing 'for the here and now', licensing is, should be, 'for the future'. Everyone who is grandfathered in *WILL* "retire", "go out of business", or "die" - it is a given that one of those three things *WILL* happen. During that time, all new home inspectors must meet the new licensing requirements - something they know about *BEFORE* they go into business. No surprises.

    Many of the newer inspector wanted to use licensing to 'protect their turf' and not allow grandfathering at all. There is no basis for "not allowing" grandfathering in of anyone currently in business - nothing will get worse because of it, and those who are grandfathered in will still need to meet the continuing education requirements, thereby improving their knowledge, and, hopefully, their inspections. Just because someone passes some type of state mandated test does not mean they will do a better inspection, it just means they know enough to pass the test.

    Passing a test and doing better inspections *HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP* to each other. Passing a test based on schooling simply means you have most likely learned what the 'already in business' guys learned the hard long way. Passing a test *DOE NOT* mean one will do a better inspection.

    I know an old timer, who even taught classes, who probably did 10,000 inspections, and, his last inspections were very little different than his first inspections. Knowledge does not mean performance, it just means ... knowledge is present.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Being a member of ASHI is like being a member of Triple AAA. All you have to do to be a member is to meet their qualifications.. which any body can if they pay the membership fee. Call the Orlando AHJ office and tell them you are a member of ASHI and see how far you get in getting a permit to do ANYTHING. Let us know how it goes.....


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    Being a member of ASHI is like being a member of Triple AAA. All you have to do to be a member is to meet their qualifications.. which any body can if they pay the membership fee. Call the Orlando AHJ office and tell them you are a member of ASHI and see how far you get in getting a permit to do ANYTHING. Let us know how it goes.....


    If it is as bad as you say right now, tell me what will be the value of HI association membership be once HI licensing is instituted?

    Home inspection associations who supported state licensing will live to rue the day they made that fatal mistake with a wailing & gnashing of teeth.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    AZ suffered tremendously, as have other states like Wisconsin with it's original bill.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Arizona suffered?
    Where did you hear this? I don't know where else you may have gotten that info other than from gromickos puppets.

    Truth is the only ones that suffered are the ones that were never qualified in the first place, guess most of them figured they were instantly qualified based soley on the states min requirements, many of them also figured buying an additional certificiation for $289.00 would be the road to success, 80% of them are also gone..

    The only one that suffered any noticable loss in AZ was gromicko, that was a $ loss


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Lunsford View Post
    Other states that enacted poor license laws have seriously suffered. Chicago tripled the number of inspectors, AZ suffered tremendously, as have other states like Wisconsin with it's original bill.
    Huh?

    Please explain "seriously suffered". And that part about "Chicago tripled the number of inspectors." - how does that make a license law bad? "AZ suffered tremendously" - in what way?

    There is a long history of the HI profession getting devisated by poor license laws.
    How has the HI profession been devastated by licensing laws?

    Please explain.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    How has the HI profession been devastated by licensing laws?

    Please explain.

    Do yourself a favor and don't waste your breath, Peck won't believe you anyway.


  18. #18
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Burke son View Post
    If it is as bad as you say right now, tell me what will be the value of HI association membership be once HI licensing is instituted?

    Home inspection associations who supported state licensing will live to rue the day they made that fatal mistake with a wailing & gnashing of teeth.
    You are right about that. If I get in a situation with a client that involves a questionable inspection, I'll take my chances with a state agency before I expect ASHI to come to my defense. Let's see...I have a irate customer who is going to sue me. Who will I call to get this problem cleared up? ASHI or the NCHILB?


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    You are right about that. If I get in a situation with a client that involves a questionable inspection, I'll take my chances with a state agency before I expect ASHI to come to my defense.
    Don't expect the state to "come to your defense" either.

    When the consumer complains to the state, they have to investigate.

    They *ARE NOT THERE FOR YOUR*"defense".

    From your last couple of posts, it seem to me that you expect others to do for you what you should do for yourself - and an association is not there for that purpose - never have been and never will be. Neither is licensing.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    Also, *I* think that *ALL* home inspectors "who are in business on the day that licensing becomes effective" should be grandfathered in. There is nothing wrong with grandfathering in, the same people currently "doing inspections" would "still be doing those same inspections" - nothing would be lost or "bad" about that. Sorry, that bucket holds no water (imho). When States adopt licensing everyone should take whatever test is required under the licensing laws.

    Passing a test and doing better inspections *HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP* to each other. Passing a test based on schooling simply means you have most likely learned what the 'already in business' guys learned the hard long way. Or never learned anything, but talk a good game. Passing a test *DOE NOT* mean one will do a better inspection. Careful, JP. You are dancing with JB's argument about licensing in general. From my point of view, there is no reason for the old timer not to take the test. It should be no problem. And if he can't pass it and goes out of business, so be it.

    I know an old timer, who even taught classes, who probably did 10,000 inspections, and, his last inspections were very little different than his first inspections. Knowledge does not mean performance, it just means ... knowledge is present.
    My point, in part. But following your intent with that statement, then one could say there is no sense in testing anyone because any new comer, me for example when I first started, new far more on paper than I knew in reality.

    In this State, licensing has become an income source for the State and little more. When a couple of us on this Board took our tests the pass rate was 17%. It now exceeds 80%. There were work experience related requirements for becoming a "Professional level Inspector." Now, a person takes some extra credits and is a "Professional" before he ever does his first Inspection.

    All tests should be developed by professional testers, should be open book, and all day affairs. And when licensing is first adopted, ALL persons practicing should take them.

    The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
    - Paul Fix

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    You are right about that. If I get in a situation with a client that involves a questionable inspection, I'll take my chances with a state agency before I expect ASHI to come to my defense. Let's see...I have a irate customer who is going to sue me. Who will I call to get this problem cleared up? ASHI or the NCHILB?
    James,

    Neither will come to your help! The state will not get involved in a private lawsuit.

    This is why you need to have E&O insurance coverage! ASHI is only a membership organization that promotes the profession and its members. They provide Standards for inspectors to work under if their state does not have standards. They offer some benefits, but those or similar benefits are also offered by other orginizations.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Walker View Post
    My point, in part. But following your intent with that statement, then one could say there is no sense in testing anyone because any new comer, me for example when I first started, new far more on paper than I knew in reality.

    In this State, licensing has become an income source for the State and little more. When a couple of us on this Board took our tests the pass rate was 17%. It now exceeds 80%. There were work experience related requirements for becoming a "Professional level Inspector." Now, a person takes some extra credits and is a "Professional" before he ever does his first Inspection.

    All tests should be developed by professional testers, should be open book, and all day affairs. And when licensing is first adopted, ALL persons practicing should take them.
    In TX, the state is not making that much income off their exam. Don't forget that the state is only getting half the cost if that for the exam. It is not a money maker, and this is another reason that the TX and NC exams have not been updated or changed in over five years. Their exam fees that are mandated by rules are too low, so it does not pay the test company to make changes to the exam. This is the reason for the high pass rates. The schools are teaching the questions and not the knowledge.

    All day exam? The length of the exam after a point has little to do with the quality of the exam. Not going to happen for a state license.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Lunsford View Post
    While I see no need for licensing, I am not against a *good* license law. This is a pathetic law that will seriously damage our profession for years to come.

    Other states that enacted poor license laws have seriously suffered. Chicago tripled the number of inspectors, AZ suffered tremendously, as have other states like Wisconsin with it's original bill.

    There is a long history of the HI profession getting devisated by poor license laws. People with their minds already made up ignore the facts and charge head on.

    It's really pathetic how many people do not do their homework and just blindly support these bad bills.
    "Chicago Tripled the number of inspectors"??? Where did you get that "fact? Bushart has claimed for many months that there were only 450 Home Inspectors in Illinois prior to licensing and that the number tripled after licensing, but he has never been willing to post just where he got the original number. Where did you get yours, from Bushart?

    Why is it that the majority of the bitching about licensing comes from Missouri and Florida, and not from Inspectors in States like Oregon, Arizona, Texas, Illinois, and other already licensed States?

    Which States have "suffered seriously from HI Licensing", and if the HI Industry is "devastated" by licensing, then how, as you and Bushart claim, did the number of HI's in Illinois triple?

    Joe Burkeson posted an article that says ASHI is fighting "poor" HI legislation every where is comes up, his buddy Bushart claims that ASHI is behind all HI Legislation Attempts, it appears there is a story for every situation.

    Licensing is coming, instead of fighting to defeat ALL Licensing inspectors should have a Plan "B", and help develop the Best Licensing Bill they can instead of Bills pushed on them by politicians an special interests. From what I saw of the Florida Bill that is just what happened, many fought against it, but none of them offered a better alternative, many were celebrating its defeat months ago, now they're stuck with what may actually match your scenario.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Capaul View Post
    Licensing is coming, instead of fighting to defeat ALL Licensing inspectors should have a Plan "B", and help develop the Best Licensing Bill they can instead of Bills pushed on them by politicians an special interests. From what I saw of the Florida Bill that is just what happened, many fought against it, but none of them offered a better alternative, many were celebrating its defeat months ago, now they're stuck with what may actually match your scenario.


    Extrapolated backward Lewis's logic would find us in America today speaking German or Japanese, just because a known evil is at your door (licensing) that is no reason to invite him (licensing again) in.

    History shows some things are worth fighting for, I happen to believe that fighting against HI licensing is a duty an an honor, there is no disgrace in defeat only in compromise.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson View Post
    Extrapolated backward Lewis's logic would find us in America today speaking German or Japanese, just because a known evil is at your door (licensing) that is no reason to invite him (licensing again) in.

    History shows some things are worth fighting for, I happen to believe that fighting against HI licensing is a duty an an honor, there is no disgrace in defeat only in compromise.
    Then I hope you are happy in your defeat Joe, and happy with living with a law completely designed by others, one where you chose to not have any input. If we followed your logic then all decisions and laws would be made by one or just a few individuals who claim to know what's right for everyone, the Sun would still be orbiting the Earth and people would still be afraid of falling over the edge.

    By the way Joe, compromise is essential to Democracy and the Freedom you cry so loudly about.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Capaul View Post
    ... compromise is essential to Democracy and the Freedom...

    YouTube - Best Bob Hope movie line


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    I'll answer as many questions as I can now, and will return over the following days to try and finish. I have a fractured vertebra in my back right now I'm dealing with.

    The FABI issue regarding how up front they were is not really important. I'll take your word on that although I do have a slightly different point of view. What is really the issue here we need to focus on is our profession is about to be hit with a terrible license law that is so bad, it may in fact accept an online style, unproctored exam similar to, or including the NACHI exam. (Not trying to slam NACHI here guys, it's just a fact.)

    Jerry, the *ONE* area I will say you are truly wrong on is the purpose of licensing. While your attitude is the correct one, you are pretty much alone in your thinking. When I asked several members of INASHI why they wanted licensing - it was unanamous. They wanted barriers to entry into the profession. I emailed Jeff Hooper about 3 years ago stating my opposition to licensing and why. He emailed me back a *very* nasty note that said something had to be done about all the inspectors flooding his market and I basically was an idiot for disagreeing with him. He later wrote on this very board that a weak license law is better than none - I remember is very clearly. I'm sure it is somewhere in the archives if they go back 2 years or so.



    As to my claims of these laws causing disasters, here is how I came to that conclusion. Not trying to be an ars here, but I did a LOT of work on this a few years back. Probably more than anyone else has done in the profession.

    When I was president of Indiana ASHI and we were deciding to pursue licensing in that state, I called *several* veteran inspectors in Texas, AZ, NJ, NC, SC, ILL, WI, and probably a few others. I presented the members with the following facts, but like the inspectors in FL, their minds were made up, damn the facts.

    In AZ alone I probably spoke to 6 inspectors either on phone or via the internet. They were completely unanimous in their reporting of it being a disaster with a 3 fold INCREASE in inspectors.

    In ILL, I was unaware of Bushart claiming a 3 fold increase. I don't know him and my source is NOT him. I personally spoke to about 6 inspectors across ILL. While Chicago was a disaster, the rural areas seemed pretty much unaffected. My main source of info from Chicago was Jamie Dunsing and Frank Lesh, current president of ASHI. They provided detailed information and estimated a 3 fold increase in inspectors along with a significant decrease in pricing power.

    I also know from inspector counts in IN, that the number of inspectors roughly doubled after one year of licensing.

    What typically happens is this; After the license laws are inacted the schools pop up on every corner. Radio ads will start promising big money for a quick, cheap class. The schools will GUARANTEE passage of the test after the class. All these new schools will pump out droves of new inspectors. This is what most every inspector reported. The radio commercials started shortly after the passing of the law in Indiana. I remember them well. "Make $800 a day" "take our one week class" "guaranteed passage of the exam".

    In fact, I have already received 3 or 4 emails regarding classes for the new mold licensing - so it's already starting to some degree.

    All for now. Gotta report to do and a back to rest.

    PS - Other than those states that require E&O insurance. Can anyone name a state that DIDN'T increase their inspector numbers?

    Last edited by Bruce Lunsford; 08-22-2007 at 07:20 PM.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Lunsford View Post
    In AZ alone I probably spoke to 6 inspectors either on phone or via the internet. They were completely unanimous in their reporting of it being a disaster with a 3 fold INCREASE in inspectors.
    I repeat: Why is that a "disaster"? Licensing does not, will not, should not, be used to "protect ones turf". If anyone thinks or says that licensing is a disaster *because* more inspectors start up, then those person have the completely wrong idea of what licensing is for.

    Their turf be dammed, licensing IS NOT to protect it.

    In ILL, I was unaware of Bushart claiming a 3 fold increase.
    Again ... Yeah? So what? That has nothing to do with licensing being good or bad.

    I personally spoke to about 6 inspectors across ILL. While Chicago was a disaster,
    Why was it a disaster? Because it did not protect their turf? Licensing is not supposed to.

    I also know from inspector counts in IN, that the number of inspectors roughly doubled after one year of licensing.
    Again, and again, I repeat: Licensing is not supposed to protect ones turf. Whether a licensing law is good or bad HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PROTECTING ONES TURF or how many new inspectors start up.

    That's the last I'm repeating that, so I'm just not going to bother to quite the rest of the message, which pretty much repeats that theme over and over.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    In TX, the state is not making that much income off their exam. Don't forget that the state is only getting half the cost if that for the exam. It is not a money maker, and this is another reason that the TX and NC exams have not been updated or changed in over five years. Their exam fees that are mandated by rules are too low, so it does not pay the test company to make changes to the exam. This is the reason for the high pass rates. The schools are teaching the questions and not the knowledge.

    Scott, there is not one test. There is a battery of test questions that are supposed to be randomly mixed for validity. If a State needs to change the battery more often than five years, it should fire the testing company. It so happens that the change in the pass rate coincided with the last changes to the questions and format, but before the additional hours requirement. Schools have always tried to teach the questions. That's why there is a battery. You can't teach them all.

    Though the State makes 50% of the licensing fee, it makes 100% of the renewal fees. It also profits from all sales taxes associated with getting into and being in business. The cost to the State of developing exams is irrelevant to the cost to the testee. That logic only applies if you are one of the believers that all aspects of government must be profit centers. The State chooses to use an outside test firm. That firms profitability is not my concern.

    All day exam? The length of the exam after a point has little to do with the quality of the exam. Not going to happen for a state license.
    You are partly right. The length of the exam has nothing to do with the quality of the exam. That is, were the exam essay or unprompted short answer. But, since the State has chosen a multiple guess format, the length of the test has everything to do with both validity and reliability. And, since you are no longer a Texan, you may not be aware that the State has now mandated that schools must maintain a 50% first time licensing exam pass rate or they will be decertified. You can bet your bippy that if I owned a school, I'd figure a way to coach the probable questions. You are correct. An all day open book test is not going to happen, but I can dream.

    The issue was whether or not anyone should be grandfathered. My opinion was and is no. When a State adopts licensing ALL persons should take the exam. Experience alone does not necessarily equal knowledge or proficiency.

    I don't mean to imply that testing should be used to lessen the numbers of inspectors. I believe in competition and am known for helping mine. I also believe in fairness to the new people coming in.

    The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
    - Paul Fix

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Walker View Post
    The issue was whether or not anyone should be grandfathered. My opinion was and is no. When a State adopts licensing ALL persons should take the exam. Experience alone does not necessarily equal knowledge or proficiency.


    I agree, the elimination of grandfather clauses in essence should lead to better laws being written (although that was not the case here in Florida) which focus on bringing the whole profession up to an acceptable standard as opposed to eliminating a targeted class of inspector.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    In Ma licensing has not increased the number of Home Inspectors due to the fact you have to train with a Licensed Inspector for 125 Houses.
    The kick is there is no law saying a current Licensed Home Inspector is required to train anyone. I guess the only reason you would is if you wanted to expand your company or needed help.
    It has stayed in the range of 600-700 HI for years.


  32. #32
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by David Banks View Post
    In Ma licensing has not increased the number of Home Inspectors due to the fact you have to train with a Licensed Inspector for 125 Houses. The kick is there is no law saying a current Licensed Home Inspector is required to train anyone. I guess the only reason you would is if you wanted to expand your company or needed help. It has stayed in the range of 600-700 HI for years.

    We have some fairly sound evidence that static societies are unsustainable, Massachusetts will be no exception to the rule. My initial thought is the citizens of Massachusetts are not receiving anywhere near the level of care that a homebuyer in Florida receives where there is a large number of inspectors competing for business.

    Usually what happens in cases like Massachusetts is over the years home inspectors get a sense of what they can get away with which leads to diminished customer care and growth in negligence until a big public mistake happens to shake up your legislators and force changes.

    Last edited by Deleted Account; 08-23-2007 at 07:57 AM.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Its Offical - ASHI Denounces Florida Legislation

    FL-ASHI- the at large chapter for Florida wil be hosting it's annual educational conference this year at World Golf Village in Saint Augustine on Sept.21-23. Our keynote speaker this year is State Rep. Stephen Wise. Rep. Wise was the sponsor for the home inspector licensing law that has passed in our state and he will be speaking on this issue- so - it should be a very interesting opening session. We also have a good mix of educational opportunities that are directly relevant to our current market. All inspectors across all associations and non affiliated inspectors are welcome and encouraged to attend. For more infomation, please visit Flashi.org


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