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  1. #1
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    Post NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

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  2. #2
    Harvey Hempelstern's Avatar
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    This is simply an attempt to be relevant. By the time any such standards are drafted and agreed upon by this group, NAHI will not even be around.


  3. #3
    Scott Dana's Avatar
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Harvey, stirring up the pot again. I am a NAHI member and happy to be and think nothing poorly of the other organizations, other than when they bad mouth each other. It's a waste of time.

    Last edited by Scott Dana; 08-24-2007 at 05:29 PM. Reason: typos

  4. #4
    David Nice's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz Kelly View Post
    If ASTM creates a national standard, how will out clients know what it is? ASHI and NAHI standards are free and can be handed to the client. ASTM charges $50 and up for a copy of their standards. Are our clients expected to fork over $50 so they know what we are inspecting?
    That is just the beginning of the problem. NAHI states that 77.6% of their members support a national standard. Well that is less than 1400 inspectors.

    At last look ASHI and NACHI and others do not support ASTM writing a standard when our industry already has standards. The nations 2 largest inspector organizations have SOP's that are nearly identical and many states (like mine) have an SOP that is much the same.

    I can tell you first hand that one of the NAHI board members says that rubbing elbows with an organization like ASTM can help make them look professional and credible.

    Thier position statement is so full of BS.

    Like this:

    "When a state adopts the standard of a specific association, you are then required to conform to how that association thinks you should perform a home inspection. In NAHI’s view this is a blatant abuse of the public policy process, and has not been openly addressed by our collective industry. A national standard for the industry, by the industry, will protect against this abuse."

    Would they say that if a state accepted their SOP?

    And this:

    "Many argue that the process for creating a national standard that allows for the inclusion of other stakeholders will dilute the standard. In truth, the collective interest of the home inspection industry and our expertise will be well represented in this process."

    That is a completely subjective statement with nothing to back it up. Do we want any outside our industry to have a say in our standards? Haven't we already had enough of that? Do we need yet another battleground to prevent outside influence or the influence of a minority of home inspectors that seem to have disdain for standards that now exist?

    And this:

    "Today, courts have numerous standards in which to compare. A national standard provides one measurement that courts can look to..."

    Since most of those "numerous standards" are essentially the same with some differences decided on by those in their own home state, this is a non-issue and certainly not a justification for ASTM and a gaggle of others with their own agendas to enter the game.

    With all the effort they are putting in to make this happen NAHI says that "Without our industry's support, no standard will pass".

    But even the vote for a second meeting was manipulated since the two major players in the industry opposed it. Collective efforts to match standards have already been under way within our industry. Only recently has NAHI bowed under pressure and aligned themselves with the two major organizations with respect to performing work in homes we inspects. Recently both NACHI and ASHI changed their COE to prohibit pay for play schemes with the Real Estate industry and NAHI has yet to be willing to prohibit this.

    As much as they have resisted matching standards with the vast majority of the industry, 1400 inspectors of that organization now support turning over the process of developing standards to another organization.

    Since they have a large number of members in the state that ASTM meets (one of the few), it was pretty easy for them to stack the deck in favor of something that the OVERWHELMING majority of inspectors and inspectors organizations (when understanding the facts) would not want.

    It IS reinventing the wheel. We don't need ASTM to "legitimize home inspection...". It is more likely that some think that ASTM can legitimize NAHI. No offense to my NAHI member friends. When I speak of NAHI I speak specifically of the NAHI leadership.

    Having read a lot of the positions they take I can see how good they can be at misleading their own members. I'm afraid that this position on ASTM developing a national SOP is yet another spiel to try to make a silk purse out of this. They are pretty good at sugar coating and dancing around strong and legitimate objections. Unfortunately there is no substance to their attempts to address them.

    I there ever is to be a single national standard for our industry it will be created by OUR industry. Not by a small minority who feel the need to push the creation of a national standard to try to make themselves look good.

    I am sure as you read this position statement yourself, you will find the same kind of logic that was previously used to suggest that working on the property that you inspect is not an issue of ethics. Their membership told them different.

    The meeting is on September 24th and I encourage everyone that can get there to show opposition to this to please do so. Since NAHI has even bribed their members with 6 CEUs to attend it is all the more important to show solid opposition to this.

    The final organizational meeting for the home inspection standards activity will take place as follows.

    Meeting Date: Monday, September 24, 2007
    Meeting Venue: ASTM International HQ, West Conshohocken, PA

    The vote to formalize this activity will take place at the meeting and proxies will not be accepted and by all means don't allow yourself to be double talked into voting yes on allowing this to move forward. The deck was previously stacked to vote to even hold this meeting. Every NO voting body is needed to prevent this from going any further!

    Meetings - ASTM International

    Just email an RSVP Pat Picariello and tell him you are attending. (it is on that second NAHI PDF)


    Pat A. Picariello, J.D., CStd
    Director, Developmental Operations
    ASTM International
    ppicarie@astm.org
    +1 610/832-9720
    ASTM International

    Last edited by David Nice; 08-30-2007 at 07:51 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by David Nice View Post
    The meeting is on September 24th and I encourage everyone that can get there to show opposition to this to please do so.
    I urge all professional home inspectors to attend and vote yes.

    There is nothing wrong with a "consensus" standard for all home inspectors, all associations, and all states, to fall under.

    Then, if your state or association wants to differentiate yourselves, take those standards and make them stronger.

    The final organizational meeting for the home inspection standards activity will take place as follows. I think it is at 9:00 AM but check with them.

    Meeting Date: Monday, September 24, 2007
    Meeting Venue: ASTM International HQ, West Conshohocken, PA

    The vote to formalize this activity will take place at the meeting and proxies will not be accepted and by all means don't allow yourself to be double talked into voting ...
    ... against this, it needs to be allowed to move forward.

    Meetings - ASTM International

    Just email Pat Picariello and tell him you are attending.
    Pat A. Picariello, J.D., CStd
    Director, Developmental Operations
    ASTM International
    ppicarie@astm.org
    +1 610/832-9720
    ASTM International

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  6. #6
    David Nice's Avatar
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Jerry,

    Now I know you've lost it. People everywhere were telling me but I just didn't believe it. You have now removed all doubt. Tis a pity.



    Vote:


  7. #7
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Do I pull now and set the hook or let it nibble a bit more?



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    There is nothing wrong with a "consensus" standard for all home inspectors, all associations, and all states, to fall under.

    Then, if your state or association wants to differentiate yourselves, take those standards and make them stronger.


    Well, at the least a "consensus" standard just might prevent a licensing bill from being signed into law that is devoid of "any" standard like what recently occurred here in Florida that was celebrated by oh so many *clueless* in both HI associations & government.

    In regards to making those standards *stronger*... Please, cut it out, your are killing me.


    *= Emphasized (so even Peck understands).


  9. #9
    Lewis Capaul's Avatar
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by David Nice View Post
    Jerry,

    Now I know you've lost it. People everywhere were telling me but I just didn't believe it. You have now removed all doubt. Tis a pity.



    Vote:
    But David, your "people everywhere" only consists of just a few of the people in your small little world of make believe world of Bushart Sheep where only the opinions you are given by your leaders count.


  10. #10
    David Nice's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Capaul View Post
    But David, your "people everywhere" only consists of just a few of the people in your small little world of make believe world of Bushart Sheep where only the opinions you are given by your leaders count.
    When he is right, he is right. You can do your little sheep talk all you want. The problem is you are the sheep. Your mind is set on automatic to discount anything and everything a NACHI member says.

    Your worse than a women scorned.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by David Nice View Post
    When he is right, he is right. You can do your little sheep talk all you want. The problem is you are the sheep. Your mind is set on automatic to discount anything and everything a NACHI member says.
    Not necessarily, I think that those who are not taken seriously are those who rant & rave, and they have never contributed anything useful to the profession. It matters not what their professional affiliation is. Those who have shown that they really care for the profession and offer their time and skills to improve it are the ones who are generally listened to and consulted for advice.

    As for Mr. Bushart, you need only search the NACHI boards, he has never provided any technical advice or even asked a technical question. He only pounds his chest for his own benefit and the benefit of his 2-3 loyal followers.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Jesus Christ guys. Don't you get tired of slamming each other and your organizations (NAHI this, NACHI that, ASHI blah blah)? I open threads hoping to see something useful only to see them denegrate into the usual pissing matches that have unfortuantely become all too common. This board was free of all of this immature crap for a while. What happened?

    Maybe some of you don't care but these threads with your names can be found by doing Google searches. Which means any potential client can Google your name and see the assinine comments you make. Time to act like professionals guys.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Those who have shown that they really care for the profession and offer their time and skills to improve it are the ones who are generally listened to and consulted for advice.



    What amazes me is that many who are revered as gold here and on other inconsequential message boards like TIJ turns out that when scratched are made of a less noble metal. Their supposed purity & goodness tarnished through their support of ill conceived and toxic licensing laws that has rendered these so-called esteemed members of our community unfit for leadership and weakened our profession to the core.


  14. #14
    David Nice's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Capaul View Post
    But David, your "people everywhere" only consists of just a few of the people in your small little world of make believe world of Bushart Sheep where only the opinions you are given by your leaders count.
    I can tell you for sure that I am no Bushart sheep. I fall on the opposing side of many issues with him and you will probably find many criticisms of him (by me), his ideas and some of his behavior.

    If he is really "Harvey Hemplestein" I would like to kick his ass for using an assumed name on any board or blog. There is enough of that going on on the NACHI board by certain people who want to pour out their bile without revealing who they really are.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    The NAHI leadership is more than naive if they think ASTM is going to share any of the spoils with them on a national home inspector test, which we already have. What a monumental waste of time and energy!

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  16. #16
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    I'm unclear what is that you believe is a monumental waste of time & energy, NAHI or ASTM's foray into the Home Inspection Standards arena?

    Personally I believe our profession might be ready for a Standard that is not tied to one of the existing Associations who have all thus far proved to be unequipped to lead us into the new millennium.

    Furthermore I would like to see ICC develop the de facto exam for home inspectors. At this point in our profession's development I believe that recognized outside organizations like ASTM & ICC would help our progress.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    The waste is on NAHI's clock.
    Your wait for an ICC National HI exam may not be that far off. I mean, who better than an internationally respected organization with no dog in the hunt?

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  18. #18
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Your wait for an ICC National HI exam may not be that far off. I mean, who better than an internationally respected organization with no dog in the hunt?
    The ICC has the same dog in the hunt that ASTM does.

    The ICC would add more credibility, however, I doubt they will get involved unless the stakes are high and the end result would be, like the ICC codes, have the boot prints of other larger associations all over it.

    The codes - the home builders.

    An HI standard - the real estate industry AND the home builders.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #19
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Touché, Jerry P

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  20. #20
    Brandon Chew's Avatar
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    ASTM uses a stakeholder consensus-building process to develop their standards. For an ASTM HI SOP, the stakeholders may be:

    clients, inspectors, real estate agents, builders, construction trades, the seller, lenders, appraisers, insurance companies, code jockeys, engineers, lawyers....

    I'm not sure what you get once you throw them all in the same pot and stir, while simmering on low heat. I am sure that some of those stakeholders are going to find aspects of the current national association HI SOPs lacking (from their perspective), and they will be eager to fill in the holes.


  21. #21
    David Nice's Avatar
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Chew View Post
    ASTM uses a stakeholder consensus-building process to develop their standards. For an ASTM HI SOP, the stakeholders may be:

    clients, inspectors, real estate agents, builders, construction trades, the seller, lenders, appraisers, insurance companies, code jockeys, engineers, lawyers....

    I'm not sure what you get once you throw them all in the same pot and stir, while simmering on low heat. I am sure that some of those stakeholders are going to find aspects of the current national association HI SOPs lacking (from their perspective), and they will be eager to fill in the holes.
    Brandon,

    This is precisely why it is vital that as many inspectors, who do not want all these stakeholder (including a lopsided inspector representation) to play a direct role in developing a national SOP, need to show up and vote NO on pursuing this further.

    NAHI is giving 6 CE credits to its members to try to stack the deck against those that oppose this. They succeeded in getting a second meeting to go forward (in spite opposition by ASHI, NACHI and other HI organization) by getting a lot of members to show up and vote yes. This coming meeting is the last opportunity to stop this train wreck from happening.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    While I oppose NAHI's underhanded tactics, I do believe that ASTM's involvement may be a benefit, I'll keep an open mind on this one.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson View Post
    While I oppose NAHI's underhanded tactics, I do believe that ASTM's involvement may be a benefit, I'll keep an open mind on this one.
    It can only benefit ASTM, it will not benefit the home inspection profession. It will simply be just another "standard" for the many to pick from. The individual states that already have a standard will not just simply adopt a new standard.

    I'm not so sure that NAHI is still supporting ASTM. Many have seen ASTM in action and see that they have left the barn door open. Many NAHI officers are no longer for the ASTM standard.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  24. #24
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Many NAHI officers are no longer for the ASTM standard.


    Still, they will surely be at the ASTM meeting to scoff up those double-dip MRC's being offered by mother NAHI, nothing like a little bribe to get the vote out.

    A play taken right out of the Chicago DNC motor-voter playbook "Chicago (NAHI)... Where even dead Democrat's (stupid home inspector's) can cast a ballot"

    Last edited by Deleted Account; 09-11-2007 at 01:14 PM.

  25. #25
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    Thumbs down Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    From the perspective of leading a state-wide association of home inspectors who face the very real prospect of licensing, and poor licensing at best, I have concerns. An ATSM standard will not eliminate any of the other standards already in existence. It will also not prevent other organizations or governmental units from developing their own standards. So, whether ATSM continues in this vein or not, it may not make any real difference. What it could definitely do is muddy the water. How many standards can there be, before any standard is no longer a standard at all? This brings to mind 12 different carpenters, each with their own measuring tape, measuring the same section of material, and getting 12 different results. There are already too many "standards". Adding another will not help, in my opine. However, as one reminded me last week: "money, money, money". It seems to be the only motivation any longer. And that is not in the home buyer / client best interest. In the end, the only standard that will matter at all will the the standard used by the inspector conducting the inspection. No court would ultimately succeed in holding an inspector to a standard to which they did not subscribe. It seems that, in the end, with all of the arguing and division, we are ultimately hurting not only ourselves, but posterity.

    Randall Aldering GHI BAOM MSM
    Housesmithe Inspection
    www.housesmithe.com

  26. #26
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Can anyone confirm that the NAHI President (Everett Rawlings), stepped down because he was in opposition to the ASTM standard? I heard about this at the Southeastern HI Conference, this past weekend.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  27. #27
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Can anyone confirm that the NAHI President (Everett Rawlings), stepped down because he was in opposition to the ASTM standard? I heard about this at the Southeastern HI Conference, this past weekend.



    Nah, the rumor at Rawlings' country club (caddy talk) is that he couldn't get reimbursed for his expense account and skated.

    On a lighter note Nick Gromicko NACHI Executive Director & Scott Patterson ASHI Membership Chair take a well deserved time out from high level NAHI bashing to break bread & plan the first ever Inspector Be-In... Groovy, far out man.

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  28. #28
    David Nice's Avatar
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Can anyone confirm that the NAHI President (Everett Rawlings), stepped down because he was in opposition to the ASTM standard? I heard about this at the Southeastern HI Conference, this past weekend.
    If he did that would probably have been the smartest thing he could do, for many reasons.

    I don't know the answer but I saw a nice picture of you with Frank Lesh and Nick Gromicko.

    ASHI President Frank Lesh, Nick Gromicko and Scott Patterson. - The National Association of Certified Home Inspectors


  29. #29
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by David Nice View Post
    I don't know the answer but I saw a nice picture of you with Frank Lesh and Nick Gromicko.

    ASHI President Frank Lesh, Nick Gromicko and Scott Patterson. - The National Association of Certified Home Inspectors

    Captions:

    Photo #1 - Personally I'm all kerflempt, should the caption be "Hello, Hello, Hello!" Or... "Kumbaya"?

    Photo #2 - Nick Gromicko explaining NACHI Rule of Acquisition #176 - "Even in the worst of times, someone turns a profit".

    Photo #3 - An uber-NACHI moment with Nick Gromicko "Resistance is futile"?

    Last edited by Deleted Account; 09-17-2007 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Didn't realize there were 3 photos to caption. :)

  30. #30
    David Nice's Avatar
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Uber has only 1 "B".


  31. #31
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    Default Re: NAHI's Position on the Creation of a National Standard for Home Inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by David Nice View Post
    Uber has only 1 "B".


    Fixed - It won't pass the spel checker neither way.


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