Thread: No report inspection request

Just received this message today from a stranger (referral from ex-client):

"We are going to be selling our current home and we were thinking of having someone do a pre-inspection for us. That is, go through the property as you would with a home inspection, but not do the report - just walk us through the elements that you see that may be red flags when the buyer does a home inspection. Is that something you'd be able to do?"

What comes to my mind when I translate this is "we want to unofficially know what is wrong with the place and have no paper trail to prove what we know/don't know before selling".

Does anyone have experience with this kind of request? It seems like a verbal consultation would insert a whole lot of strange grey areas for liability down the road. I've always kept it linear: Contract - Inspection - Verbal Report - Written Report. Just interested in how y'all might respond.

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Originally Posted by Luc V. L.

What comes to my mind when I translate this is "we want to unofficially know what is wrong with the place and have no paper trail to prove what we know/don't know before selling".

Yep, that is their intent.

Does anyone have experience with this kind of request?

I've done that very thing for a number of clients, can't recall if I've done it for sellers. There were quite lucrative, actually ... no time spent on photos or report after leaving the inspection.

There is still one written paper trail: the contract which states what you are doing - a walkthrough inspection looking for what you can readily see, typically no tools, ladder, flashlight, etc., are used, basically you are walking around with your hands behind you going 'Huh-huh.' and nodding your head this way and that way and telling your client what you see.

You will surprise yourself on what you can see by walking around like that. You automatically seem to 'get in the zone' (at least I did) and the deficiencies just seemed to jump out like they were waving flags to get your attention. I suspect that this is because you are not distracted at each item and every turn to stop and take a photo and/or write something down.

Try doing that at your house and see what I mean. Really kind of amazing the way it works out.

It is up to your client to do what they want with that information, just like when you give them a written report - they can shred it as soon as they get through reading it, so not really a big deal.

Just don't forget to get your check.

I see no problem with being paid for your opinion. I'd be good w/ someone paying me to opine for a while. The liability part is particularly attractive.

Originally Posted by Luc V. L.

Just received this message today from a stranger (referral from ex-client):

"We are going to be selling our current home and we were thinking of having someone do a pre-inspection for us. That is, go through the property as you would with a home inspection, but not do the report - just walk us through the elements that you see that may be red flags when the buyer does a home inspection. Is that something you'd be able to do?"

What comes to my mind when I translate this is "we want to unofficially know what is wrong with the place and have no paper trail to prove what we know/don't know before selling".

Does anyone have experience with this kind of request? It seems like a verbal consultation would insert a whole lot of strange grey areas for liability down the road. I've always kept it linear: Contract - Inspection - Verbal Report - Written Report. Just interested in how y'all might respond.

Here is a one hour course on the "Pre-Listing Consultation" that will tell you everything you need to know about this process, and then some. Complete with powerpoint. I have been asked to do this presentation live at Inspection World in Vegas so if you're an ASHI guy (or not!) come see it live!
Inspector Services Group: Sell More Pre-Listing Inspections - YouTube

Not only is it okay to NOT submit a report, it's encouraged! As long as you're doing a consultation and not an inspection. Definitely worth your time- taught this to over 700 inspectors, get calls every week just about with a success story.

You are in the State of Washington and licensed by that State to do inspections.

Make sure you stay "within" their rules for your licensure.

Licensed State or not, its OK to do a "walk and talk" consultation. It is NOT a home inspection, its a home consultation. I do them for investors all the time.

Just make sure you have an agreement that spells out what you are doing, or NOT doing.

I'm doing one next week for a woman that is getting ready to put her house up for sale and wants to know what to fix before she lists it.

We do both full pre-listing inspections (with report), and consultations. Like others have said, we walk through the house, no tools, no ladder, take no notes or photos. Owner walks with us and takes his/her own notes and photos. It's billed as a consultation, usually on an hourly rate with a 2-hour minimum.
Yes, they don't want to have a paper trail. Sometimes their intent is to find out if there are serious problems so they can figure out how to cover them up.
Heard a story from one inspector who looked at a friend's house as a favor; he found a leak in a pipe over the garage ceiling. Friend didn't want to spend the money to fix it, so just put a foil turkey pan under the leak, patched the drywall and left it at that. I feel sorry for the new owners when that pan overflows.

Originally Posted by Welmoed Sisson

We do both full pre-listing inspections (with report), and consultations. Like others have said, we walk through the house, no tools, no ladder, take no notes or photos. Owner walks with us and takes his/her own notes and photos. It's billed as a consultation, usually on an hourly rate with a 2-hour minimum.
Yes, they don't want to have a paper trail. Sometimes their intent is to find out if there are serious problems so they can figure out how to cover them up.
Heard a story from one inspector who looked at a friend's house as a favor; he found a leak in a pipe over the garage ceiling. Friend didn't want to spend the money to fix it, so just put a foil turkey pan under the leak, patched the drywall and left it at that. I feel sorry for the new owners when that pan overflows.

You and Bob are awesome. Too bad about that last part, unfortunately there are dishonest people out there- but I love how you offer the two options to clients. Very cool.

I couldn't sleep at night if I knew I was a participant in aiding and abetting a vendor in being dishonest, particularly when the vendor discloses to the inspector their intent.

I have never had a client admit to planning on being dishonest or not disclosing something found.

That said, I really have no idea what some of my clients do with the information I have given them anyway. Nor do I really care. My job is to do the inspection, write a report, and get paid. I don't care if they buy the house or not. I don't care if they sell the house or not.

It's also not my job or responsibility to police other people's moral compass.

I can't tell you how many times I have done an inspection, found and identified defects, only to find the same identifiers a few years later when they turn around and sell the property. They probably collected $$$ from the previous sellers to correct the defects found, pocketed the money and didn't fix anything.
Again, not my problem what went on. I just write the defects up again, and tell my new clients.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

I couldn't sleep at night if I knew I was a participant in aiding and abetting a vendor in being dishonest, particularly when the vendor discloses to the inspector their intent.

Clarify. By vendor do you mean seller?

Yes seller = vendor

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

I couldn't sleep at night if I knew I was a participant in aiding and abetting a vendor in being dishonest, particularly when the vendor discloses to the inspector their intent.

You have no control over that. Information from inspections you have already done and may do in the future probably have been miss-used and probably will be. Cover up happens w/o inspections; throw rugs over floor defects, patch & paint w/o fixing the cause, etc. The intent to miss-use the info. would be a small minority, but if judging the actions of others is your priority, be a judge.

DON'T DO IT! Washington State requires us to deliver a written report on any and all Home Inspections.

Originally Posted by Trent Tarter

DON'T DO IT! Washington State requires us to deliver a written report on any and all Home Inspections.

Respectfully, you are incorrect sir. We reviewed all state statutes prior to ever putting this presentation on, and I promise you my legal fees spent and attorney's review of the issue is a more reliable source than a knee-jerk reaction.

What you said does have a basis in fact- if you are performing an Inspection, then yes a report is required in the state of Washington. For a consultation no- especially when no real estate transaction is yet contemplated and the home is simply listed.

If you don't believe, please call your state licensing authority and tell them several inspectors are offering current homeowners consultations to advise them on what an inspector might be looking for if their house ever does get inspected. You'll find they do not care.

Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship

You have no control over that. Information from inspections you have already done and may do in the future probably have been miss-used and probably will be. Cover up happens w/o inspections; throw rugs over floor defects, patch & paint w/o fixing the cause, etc. The intent to miss-use the info. would be a small minority, but if judging the actions of others is your priority, be a judge.

All legislation and SoPs I have seen allows the client to alter what is inspected and how.

The client is the boss. The legislation and SoPs are there to protect the client against unscrupulous inspectors would might try to force the client to accept things they might not want, i.e., the legislation and SoPs are written to prohibit an inspector from forcing a verbal report on each and every client, but not on any client who so chooses to have a verbal report.

Here is the ASHI SoP which addresses that issue:
- 2.3 These Standards of Practice are not intended to limit inspectors from:
- - including other inspection services or systems and components in addition to those required In Section 2.2.B.
- - designing or specifying repairs, provided the inspector is appropriately qualified and willing to do so.
- - excluding systems and components from the inspection if requested by the client.

The client, as allowed by 2.3, may exclude EVERYTHING from the inspection and written report. The client is then allowed to ask the inspector to do a walk around for such and such and verbally tell the client what the inspector sees.

Do the walk around verbal inspection meet the ASHI SOP? You betcha - because it meets the allowances of 2.3.

Problem I see is that vendor/sellers in some cases are trying to cover up stuff ahead of the inspection anyway. Can't count the times i find the bucket in the attic trick or duck tape around a leaking drain line. Some time its just poor repairs but you can tell when they are trying to hide things its human nature try to fool the inspector. You can call it consultation but when you enter someones home and report the conditions which you see you are doing an inspection and in most states with licensing a written report is required, it is in mine. If money changes hands and there is a contract you best provide a written report or you could get into the "who's on first what's on 2nd" debate. I find most sellers who ask for a quick look to identify big problems are just trying to get a cheep job; if you fall into this trap most likely they will call you back after the real home inspection is done and complain because the guy put 15 things or his report you didn't tell him about. Inspector be ware!

Originally Posted by Thomas McKay

Problem I see is that vendor/sellers in some cases are trying to cover up stuff ahead of the inspection anyway. Can't count the times i find the bucket in the attic trick or duck tape around a leaking drain line. Some time its just poor repairs but you can tell when they are trying to hide things its human nature try to fool the inspector. You can call it consultation but when you enter someones home and report the conditions which you see you are doing an inspection and in most states with licensing a written report is required, it is in mine. If money changes hands and there is a contract you best provide a written report or you could get into the "who's on first what's on 2nd" debate. I find most sellers who ask for a quick look to identify big problems are just trying to get a "cheep" (as in a little bird told me? )job; if you fall into this trap most likely they will call you back after the real home inspection is done and complain because the guy put 15 things or his report you didn't tell him about. Inspector be ware!

Just poking fun! Couldn't resist.<grin>

This is an area that may be the nest addendum to the sales contract dealing with seller's disclosure.

Seller's Disclosure.
The Seller of the property will list all Home Inspections or Consultations performed regarding the property and provide in writing all information disclosed to the Seller in any format, verbal or written, along with the name and license number of the inspector or contractor.

The amount of disclosure and its format has changed radically over the past few decades and it only seems to increase year by year.

Originally Posted by Trent Tarter

DON'T DO IT! Washington State requires us to deliver a written report on any and all Home Inspections.

I think Trent is correct. And this is why. The state board sets the rules.

You will find these words in the State boards ACT. As prescribe by the board. And/or industry standards.

These are open tools for the State board To go after an inspector if they have a home owner/buyer file a complaint on you.

The point is you are looking at the home and pointing out problems that's an inspection. Not a consutation.

Now i do these inspection all the time i charge $150.00 No report 1hour. For a small home
Calif. Has no state Home inspector Lic. Board.

Best

Ron

I was hired by a client to do an inspection on a house in North Carolina. I hold a license in Tennessee, and do not hold one in North Carolina. I told my client that I could not do a home inspection in North Carolina.

After checking with the Realtors, and the State it was determined that I could do a "consultation" for him. However, any report or communication could not be used as a "home inspection" for the purpose of the real estate contract for this purchase.

I can do whatever I please, and get paid for it. But if I want my E + O insurance to cover me, I am obliged to follow my SOP to the letter and hand over a complete written report.

That is why you need to be specific and there needs to be a signed agreement. No E + O.

Originally Posted by Ron Bibler

I think Trent is correct. And this is why. The state board sets the rules.

You will find these words in the State boards ACT. As prescribe by the board. And/or industry standards.

These are open tools for the State board To go after an inspector if they have a home owner/buyer file a complaint on you.

The point is you are looking at the home and pointing out problems that's an inspection. Not a consutation.

Now i do these inspection all the time i charge $150.00 No report 1hour. For a small home
Calif. Has no state Home inspector Lic. Board.

Best

Ron

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

I was hired by a client to do an inspection on a house in North Carolina. I hold a license in Tennessee, and do not hold one in North Carolina. I told my client that I could not do a home inspection in North Carolina.

After checking with the Realtors, and the State it was determined that I could do a "consultation" for him. However, any report or communication could not be used as a "home inspection" for the purpose of the real estate contract for this purchase.

You state's regulations prohibit the client from being able to ask you to do less than what is specifically stated? You sure it prohibits that?

Would you post the wording which prohibits that - thanks.

Ifound this info at http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/homei.../hilawbook.pdf

Chapter 308-408 WAC
DEFINITIONS

(13) "Report" means the act of stating one’s observations
clearly in the report.
(14) "Standard home inspection" is a prelisting or presale
written report that contains all or most of the components
listed in the standards of practice. The components must be
listed in the preinspection agreement. This standard home
inspection report cannot be delivered verbally and must be in
writing.

Originally Posted by Ron Bibler

Ifound this info at http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/homei.../hilawbook.pdf

Chapter 308-408 WAC
DEFINITIONS

(13) "Report" means the act of stating one’s observations
clearly in the report.
(14) "Standard home inspection" is a prelisting or presale
written report that contains all or most of the components
listed in the standards of practice. The components must be
listed in the preinspection agreement. This standard home
inspection report cannot be delivered verbally and must be in
writing.

Ron,

You've missed a few key issues with that.

First, you did not post the section which prohibits the client from making changes and having less done than that which is specified.

Second, that part you did post indicates that the client DOES have the ability to make changes and have less done than that which is specified: "contains all or most".

Thirdly, that states "This standard home inspection report cannot be delivered verbally and must be in writing." and what is being discussed is anything but a standard home inspection report.

Then there is this: ""Standard home inspection" is a prelisting or presale written report" ... by definition a verbal consultation *is not* a "standard home inspection" because it is not written.

Without the full listing of the SoP requirements there is no way to determine what is and is not allowed/required/prohibited - would you post all of the SoP - thank you.

Jerry,
I'm not sure if your question was aimed at me or not. Let me clarify my situation...
North Carolina real estate contracts (as well as Tennessee) state that for real estate transactions, when a buyer is opting to use their right to have a home inspection, they MUST use a home inspector that holds a current, valid, home inspectors license (in that State).

My client, knowing that I did not hold a North Carolina home inspector's license, decided to waive his right for a home inspection (by a North Carolina licensed home inspector), and decided to hire me to act as a building consultant.

I'm pretty sure the PA Home Inspection Law requires us to provide a report if we are being paid for the inspection but I'd have to check on it.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

Jerry,
I'm not sure if your question was aimed at me or not.

Part was to you and part was to Ron, and both parts were with regard to doing the inspection for the seller.

Let me clarify my situation...

North Carolina real estate contracts (as well as Tennessee) state that for real estate transactions, when a buyer ...

Jack, the discussion was about doing walkthrough inspections for the seller, not the buyer, and that the seller did not want a written report, the seller (the client) only wanted a verbal from the inspector so the seller could take the notes.

Completely different animal with the buyer as a client, without a written report there is nothing the buyer has to use for the any clause in the contract regarding inspections - if it is not written, it did not happen (so to speak - there is no "evidence" of the inspection which leaves a paper trail).

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Ron,

You've missed a few key issues with that.

First, you did not post the section which prohibits the client from making changes and having less done than that which is specified.

Second, that part you did post indicates that the client DOES have the ability to make changes and have less done than that which is specified: "contains all or most".

Thirdly, that states "This standard home inspection report cannot be delivered verbally and must be in writing." and what is being discussed is anything but a standard home inspection report.

Then there is this: ""Standard home inspection" is a prelisting or presale written report" ... by definition a verbal consultation *is not* a "standard home inspection" because it is not written.

Without the full listing of the SoP requirements there is no way to determine what is and is not allowed/required/prohibited - would you post all of the SoP - thank you.

Jerry Im not from Washington state and i don't do inspection in that state. I just found the Inspection ACT and posted it for you. If like you can read that thing it may have some information you may like to know?

I bet it has more to say on this subject.

Best

Ron

At the end of the walk and talk I always offer a complete report for the normal charge and most will agree the added value of having a report.









Pacific Northwest Inspections Group,LLC
Bellevue,WA
425.608.9553
Home Inspection Seattle Bellevue | Mold and Lead Paint Testing

I would not do that job. If I'm getting paid for an inspection someone is getting my report in writing. What sort of contract modifications would you make for that client? Or would you just give them carte blanche to sue you, claiming that since you didn't warn them of something the buyer asks them to fix, that you should pay for it? If those sellers will leave the door open to defraud their buyers, they will consider doing it to you, too.

Originally Posted by Linda Swearingen

I would not do that job. If I'm getting paid for an inspection someone is getting my report in writing. What sort of contract modifications would you make for that client? Or would you just give them carte blanche to sue you, claiming that since you didn't warn them of something the buyer asks them to fix, that you should pay for it? If those sellers will leave the door open to defraud their buyers, they will consider doing it to you, too.

Good, I will do that inspection and make a ton of money on it and others like it.

What are they going to sue you on?

You have a signed contract which states that THEY do not want a written report ... I don't know of ANY judge who would read the contract where one party stated "we do not want a written report" and then try to claim that you missed doing something that they wanted you to do - they have *no proof* that you missed it, they may have just forgotten that you did it and told them about it.

Sheesh ... so many scared inspectors here. "No written report" is the best way to avoid litigation against you - they do not have proof that you did not, or did, do something. The response is: I did, or did not, do that, we spent 30 minutes discussing it, and you don't REMEMBER anything? THAT is why *I* wanted to give you a WRITTEN report. Judge: Case dismissed.

The verbal consultation thing sounds good on paper, but I suspect there could be some expensive legal ramifications should the person requesting the walk-through tape record every word you say (or didn't say, by its absence), have it transcribed, and have that taken by his/her attorney to show the judge what you forgot to tell him/her.

Should you not want to go through the court thing and pay your own attorney a substantial sum to try to keep your reputation clean, opposing party will happily offer to settle out of court for a mere $25,000 or so.

What say you, Mr. Peck?

Originally Posted by BridgeMan

The verbal consultation thing sounds good on paper, but I suspect there could be some expensive legal ramifications should the person requesting the walk-through tape record every word you say (or didn't say, by its absence), have it transcribed, and have that taken by his/her attorney to show the judge what you forgot to tell him/her.

Should you not want to go through the court thing and pay your own attorney a substantial sum to try to keep your reputation clean, opposing party will happily offer to settle out of court for a mere $25,000 or so.

What say you, Mr. Peck?

In Georgia, what I've heard is (I don't know it to be law)
You can record someone without having consent however the recording cannot be listened to by any person that was not a part of the conversion that was recorded. You cant play the recording in court.

I do them from time to time. Primarily for existing owners, some cases they plan to sell and some not. I call the service a "repair consultation". I make it very clear that it's not a home inspection.

I agree with others that they are lucrative and it's amazing how fast you can find stuff when your not hampered by the requirement to produce a written report.

I take pictures as I move around the property. Near the end of the gig, I'll sit with the client and we scroll through the pictures and talk while they jot notes. When I get home, I send them the pics but nothing else.

Everyone has seemed very satisfied and I've never had a complaint in this process.

Now mind you, I've never had anyone come right out and say they want to know what's wrong and don't want a report so they can "pretend" ignorance and not disclose under law. That would make me feel apprehensive.

Don't think for a minute if you do a walk-through and have a contract one could not be sued for breach of contract and/or negligent misrepresentation.

It might be difficult for plaintiff to prove the case, but you could still be sued by someone who feels they got less than what they bargained for under the proviso a standard of care was not exercised.

One must still exercise a standard of care under the circumstances.

The client could video tape, record, or even have witnesses present during the inspection, along with notes they took.

Originally Posted by BridgeMan

The verbal consultation thing sounds good on paper, but I suspect there could be some expensive legal ramifications should the person requesting the walk-through tape record every word you say (or didn't say, by its absence), have it transcribed, and have that taken by his/her attorney to show the judge what you forgot to tell him/her.

Should you not want to go through the court thing and pay your own attorney a substantial sum to try to keep your reputation clean, opposing party will happily offer to settle out of court for a mere $25,000 or so.

What say you, Mr. Peck?

"but I suspect there could be some expensive legal ramifications should the person requesting the walk-through tape record every word you say"

For the party doing the recording without permission, yes.

It is a state by state case as to whether or not "all" parties are to be "notified" (versus having to give "consent"), however, even in states where the consent of all parties is not required to allow the recording to proceed, the person making the recording can be up for hefty penalties if that recorded information is played/shown/given to a third party.

Other posts above have covered it fairly well, but here is some good reading too:
- http://www.rcfp.org/rcfp/orders/docs/CANWETAPE.pdf
- Legal Lad : Is It Legal to Record a Conversation? :: Quick and Dirty Tips ™

Beyond the above information, you would need to seek the advice of an attorney.

Here in IL, if the inspection is pursuant to to a sale, rental, etc., the inspector must prove a written report that complies with the state SOP.

For practical purposes, this means that such a transaction is contemplated within the next six months.

In states with similar requirements, IMO it's a good idea to have whoever is contracting for the inspection to specifically initial a paragraph stating that no such transaction is contemplated within the next six months (or whatever your stare requires).

I have a entire separate contract for these "Property condition Reports".

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

Here in IL, if the inspection is pursuant to to a sale, rental, etc., the inspector must prove a written report that complies with the state SOP.

For practical purposes, this means that such a transaction is contemplated within the next six months.

In states with similar requirements, IMO it's a good idea to have whoever is contracting for the inspection to specifically initial a paragraph stating that no such transaction is contemplated within the next six months (or whatever your stare requires).

I have a entire separate contract for these "Property condition Reports".

Michael,

Does your state's SoP allow the inspector to do more than the SoP, and to do less than the SoP if the client requests such (or it is not present, as another example of not meeting the SoP)?

So, by Jerry's reasoning, anybody who lives in a state where licensing is required could do "consultations", essentially home inspections without a license or insurance or an inspection agreement. The written report is not material to the discussion and could still be provided. As long as he / her called themselves a consultant, not a home inspector. Maybe he's right.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson

So, by Jerry's reasoning, anybody who lives in a state where licensing is required could do "consultations", essentially home inspections without a license or insurance or an inspection agreement. The written report is not material to the discussion and could still be provided. As long as he / her called themselves a consultant, not a home inspector. Maybe he's right.

That's not what I am saying, but close - the home inspector can do the "home inspection" to the SoP ... which allows the client to ask for less that what is spelled out in the SoP.

This is the ASHI SoP from the ASHI web site:
- 2l Purpose and scope
- - 2.1 The purpose of these Standards of Practice is to establish a minimum and uniform standard for home inspectors who subscribe to these Standards of Practice. Home Inspections performed to these Standards of Practice are intended to provide the client with objective information regarding the condition of the systems and components of the home as inspected at the time of the home inspection. Redundancy in the description of the requirements, limitations, and exclusions regarding the scope of the home inspection is provided for emphasis only.
- - 2.2 Inspectors shall:
- - - A. adhere to the Code of Ethics of the American Society of Home Inspectors.
- - - B. inspect readily accessible, visually observable, installed systems and components listed in these Standards of Practice.
- - - C. report :
- - - - 1. those systems and components inspected that, in the professional judgment of the inspector, are not functioning properly, significantly deficient, unsafe, or are near the end of their service lives.
- - - - 2. recommendations to correct, or monitor for future correction, the deficiencies reported in 2.2.C.1, or items needing further evaluation. (Per Exclusion 13.2.A.5 inspectors are NOT required to determine methods, materials, or costs of corrections.)
- - - - 3. reasoning or explanation as to the nature of the deficiencies reported in 2.2.C.1, that are not self-evident.
- - - - 4. systems and components designated for inspection in these Standards of Practice that were present at the time of the home inspection but were not inspected and the reason(s) they were not inspected.
- - 2.3 These Standards of Practice are not intended to limit inspectors from:
- - - A. including other inspection services or systems and components in addition to those required In Section 2.2.B.
- - - B. designing or specifying repairs, provided the inspector is appropriately qualified and willing to do so.
- - - C. excluding systems and components from the inspection if requested by the client

2.3.C. excluding systems and components from the inspection if requested by the client

The client excludes *ALL* systems and components from the inspection, then asks the home inspector if the home inspector would simply do a walk-through verbally telling the client what the home inspector sees which the home inspector might find if they were to do a home inspection for a buyer.

I know some of you guys may not like it, but there is no limitation to the exclusions and the above scenario STILL results in an inspection WHICH MEETS the SoP requirements because that verbal inspection meets 2.3.C.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

That's not what I am saying, but close - the home inspector can do the "home inspection" to the SoP ... which allows the client to ask for less that what is spelled out in the SoP.

I didn't mean that was what you were saying or trying to say, just that that's one logical conclusion of your argument.

Depending on the wording of the local licensing law if any, it may revolve around the specific wording of the governing documents. In that if a Home Inspection is offered then it must be performed to the letter of the law. Contract, SOPs, written report and so forth. If an non inspection but a consultation of condition of the home is offered then you are not bound by the governing law of Home Inspection Law. This differentiation may be important as it is in Maryland.

The rub may be in the local requirements of full disclosure which may be required by state law or as defined in the body of the Contract of Sale. The fact that a report is not prepared in a written form may ultimately be mute. If a licensed individual provides an owner an opinion on a defect, the owner has been put on notice and knows knows of that defect. The potential is that the person giving the opinion may be drug into the a future squabble over disclosures made by the seller. Ultimately the licensed person may be drug into court by the buyer.

So written or not the owner has been informed.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather everyone here get paid for a full inspection all the time...

but those saying a "Pre-Listing Consultation" or a "Repair Consultation" are illegal are wrong. Every time you post a section of the rules, you prove the point further because all of those regs are based on the premise that an "Inspection" is being done.

Don't believe me? Call your state licensing board, send them the link to my pre-listing consultation and report me. Give them my number. Give them my name. Multiple people have done so thus far, and every single time the licensing authority tells them they don't care because it's not under the umbrella of a "home inspection." Further, there's not a state in the union that has regulations prohibiting inspectors from deriving revenue from other sources...you could mow lawns, walk dogs, whatever- you could even teach a home owner what the home inspection includes- and that is what this counts as.

This whole idea that any licensee walking into a house and looking at any issue must then perform a full inspection and deliver a report is asinine. If that were the case, 203k consultants would be losing their license every single day, reinspections would be illegal, partial inspections and auxiliary services wouldn't be permitted, and you'd have to charge your neighbor for a home inspection and deliver them a report every time you pulled up to your house and saw some issue you thought they ought to know about (like my neighbor, who is ignoring a significant structural issue at the moment).

So keep pumping up your chest and posting out of context sections of the regulations and playing amateur attorney if you'd like, but if you're looking for facts call your licensing board and you'll discover everything I've said here is 100% accurate.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Michael,

Does your state's SoP allow the inspector to do more than the SoP, and to do less than the SoP if the client requests such (or it is not present, as another example of not meeting the SoP)?

PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS 225 ILCS 441/) Home Inspector License Act.

Definitions:

"Home inspection" means the examination and evaluation of the exterior and interior components of residential real property, which includes the inspection of any 2 or more of the following components of residential real property in connection with or to facilitate the sale, lease, or other conveyance of, or the proposed sale, lease or other conveyance of, residential real property:

(1)heating, ventilation, and air conditioning system
(2) plumbing system
(3) electrical system
(4) structural composition
(5) foundation
(6) roof
(7) masonry structure
(8) any other RRE component as established by rule.

"Home inspector" means a person who, for another and for compensation either direct or indirect, performs home inspections.

"Home inspection report" or "inspection report" means a written evaluation prepared and issued by a home inspector upon completion of a home inspection, which meets the standards of practice as established by OBRE.

Section 1410.200* Standards of Practice*

At the conclusion of the home inspection, a home inspector shall submit a written report to the client or duly authorized representative within 48 hours that includes the home inspector's signature and license number and expiration date and shall:
*
1)Describe the systems and components that were inspected;
*
2) Report on those systems and components inspected that, in the
Opinion of the inspector, are significantly deficient (Unsafe
or not functioning) and

A) A reason why the system or component is significantly deficient.
*
B) Disclose:

Any systems or components designated for inspection,
that were present at the time of the home inspection, but
were not inspected

And a reason they were not inspected.

These Standards are not intended to limit home inspectors from:

1) Including other inspection services, systems or components in
addition to those defined in these standards of practice
*
2) Excluding systems and components in the written agreement
from the inspection.

IF you are inspecting 2 or more systems "in connection with or to facilitate the sale, lease, or other conveyance of, or the proposed sale, lease or other conveyance of, residential real property", it's a "home inspection".

IF it's home inspection, you must provide a written report compliant with the state SOP.

The only "wiggle room" is the definition of "or the proposed " in "connection with or to facilitate"; the advice I received with an attorney familiar with the IL home inspection statutes was that in practice that's "within six months", and that's the standard I use.

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS 225 ILCS 441/) Home Inspector License Act.

Definitions:

"Home inspection" means the examination and evaluation of the exterior and interior components of residential real property, which includes the inspection of any 2 or more of the following components of residential real property in connection with or to facilitate the sale, lease, or other conveyance of, or the proposed sale, lease or other conveyance of, residential real property:

(1)heating, ventilation, and air conditioning system
(2) plumbing system
(3) electrical system
(4) structural composition
(5) foundation
(6) roof
(7) masonry structure
(8) any other RRE component as established by rule.

"Home inspector" means a person who, for another and for compensation either direct or indirect, performs home inspections.

"Home inspection report" or "inspection report" means a written evaluation prepared and issued by a home inspector upon completion of a home inspection, which meets the standards of practice as established by OBRE.

Section 1410.200* Standards of Practice*

At the conclusion of the home inspection, a home inspector shall submit a written report to the client or duly authorized representative within 48 hours that includes the home inspector's signature and license number and expiration date and shall:
*
1)Describe the systems and components that were inspected;
*
2) Report on those systems and components inspected that, in the
Opinion of the inspector, are significantly deficient (Unsafe
or not functioning) and

A) A reason why the system or component is significantly deficient.
*
B) Disclose:

Any systems or components designated for inspection,
that were present at the time of the home inspection, but
were not inspected

And a reason they were not inspected.

These Standards are not intended to limit home inspectors from:

1) Including other inspection services, systems or components in
addition to those defined in these standards of practice
*
2) Excluding systems and components in the written agreement
from the inspection.

IF you are inspecting 2 or more systems "in connection with or to facilitate the sale, lease, or other conveyance of, or the proposed sale, lease or other conveyance of, residential real property", it's a "home inspection".

IF it's home inspection, you must provide a written report compliant with the state SOP.

The only "wiggle room" is the definition of "or the proposed " in "connection with or to facilitate"; the advice I received with an attorney familiar with the IL home inspection statutes was that in practice that's "within six months", and that's the standard I use.

203k Financing and the associated inspections are officially illegal in Illinois. lol

You can also not provide:

Well and Septic Inspections
Termite Inspections
Water testing
Mold evaluations
Mold Testing
Pool & Spa Inspections
Irrigation inspections


Does that really make sense to you?

Originally Posted by Nathan Thornberry

203k Financing and the associated inspections are officially illegal in Illinois. lol

You can also not provide:

Well and Septic Inspections
Termite Inspections
Water testing
Mold evaluations
Mold Testing
Pool & Spa Inspections
Irrigation inspections


Does that really make sense to you?

All of those are excluded under the "two or more systems" requirement, or a separate section of the act I did not cite. (The same is true of an "inspection" of a property performed in order to prepare a bid for maintenance, repair or improvement of a property.)

What *is* clearly prohibited here in IL, when a residential property is, or is about to be, offered for sale, rent, etc., is a "home inspection" without a written report which meets the state SOP.

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

The only "wiggle room" is the definition of "or the proposed " in "connection with or to facilitate"; the advice I received with an attorney familiar with the IL home inspection statutes was that in practice that's "within six months", and that's the standard I use.

Actually, the biggest "wiggle room" is large enough to drive the proverbial 18 wheeler tractor-trailer through.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The client, as allowed by 2.3, may exclude EVERYTHING from the inspection and written report. The client is then allowed to ask the inspector to do a walk around for such and such and verbally tell the client what the inspector sees.

Once the client excludes "EVERYTHING from the inspection and written report", there are no longer the "any 2 or more" ... *everything* ... has been excluded by the client. Now you are just doing a walkthrough 'not a home inspection' inspection/review/etc./whatever you want to call it. No written report required.

And, because it is no longer a "home inspection" by definition in state statute, one would not be required to be a "home inspector" to do those (because, by definition, it is not a "home inspection"). And, because it is not legally a "home inspection" and the person doing it not legally a "home inspector", then, again, by definition in that statute, no written report needs to be provided.

Sometimes, some people try to insist that certain things are required and try to add words into statutes, laws, and standards of practice, when the actual statute, law, and/or standards of practice does not contain the words needed to make their thinking correct.

Just like if you did a "home inspection" and issued a "home inspection report", if you did not charge a fee or solicit any other form of direct, or indirect, compensation, then you are not, by definition of a "home inspector", a "home inspector" doing a home inspection.

/\
|
|

Smart guy. Could come from all that litigation consultation.

Very sensible, viable argument. Could have used you in Kansas the other day. lol

Corey Friedman would probably be the person to ask about this, at least in IL.

Just received a brief but official opinion back from the licensing supervisor at the Oregon Construction Contractors Board (the state agency that licenses home inspectors and building contractors). Her response to my question of whether a home inspector's license is required for someone doing in-home consulting, without a written report, for the purpose of evaluating things requiring repair:

"Consultants--not arranging for work--do not require a license."

Guess I'll work up a contract form and beat the bushes to see what happens.

The state of Texas will not allow this, JP's wide-ranging, wild-eyed, side-stepping notwithstanding. In fact, the fines for such an action could exceed $5K with a license suspension. Anyone attempting this dance should first clear it with their state board, if there is one.

Is it really a wise move, for the sake of one measly inspection fee, to get in the face of an inspection board replete with attorneys?


Section 1102.001 (9) "Real estate inspection" means a written or oral opinion as to the condition of the improvements to real property, including structural items, electrical items, mechanical systems, plumbing systems, or equipment.

535.222(a) For each inspection, the inspector shall:
(1) prepare a written inspection report noting observed deficiencies and other items required to be reported

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

The state of Texas will not allow this, JP's wide-ranging, wild-eyed, side-stepping notwithstanding. In fact, the fines for such an action could exceed $5K with a license suspension. Anyone attempting this dance should first clear it with their state board, if there is one.

Is it really a wise move, for the sake of one measly inspection fee, to get in the face of an inspection board replete with attorneys?


Section 1102.001 (9) "Real estate inspection" means a written or oral opinion as to the condition of the improvements to real property, including structural items, electrical items, mechanical systems, plumbing systems, or equipment.

535.222(a) For each inspection, the inspector shall:
(1) prepare a written inspection report noting observed deficiencies and other items required to be reported

I notice you did not include the part to which I referenced in the other law. Any particular reason you did not include it? Other than not wanting to be shown that it exist in Texas too?

Most if not all state home inspector regulatory boards look at it this way: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck! If the inspection looks, sounds and acts like a home inspection it is a home inspection regardless of what you call it.

JP: It seems that the Texas Real Estate Commission may consider itself above the law. You are not in Texas, have not fought with them for the past 15 years and would not, under any circumstance, prevail if you were here and did try.

This is not Flah-dah or Kansas. Dorothy never lived here or came to visit Donald Duck.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Most if not all state home inspector regulatory boards look at it this way: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck! If the inspection looks, sounds and acts like a home inspection it is a home inspection regardless of what you call it.

Ahhh ... so true, and ... doing a verbal report does NOT "walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck!"

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

JP: The Texas Real Estate Commission considers itself above the law. You are not in Texas, have not fought with them for the past 15 years and would not, under any circumstance, prevail if you were here and did try.

This is not Flah-dah or Kansas. Dorothy never lived here or came to visit Donald Duck.

Aaron,

Don't get me wrong, *I* *DID NOT* write any of those laws, but ... those *ARE* the laws which were written and passed, and what the law states, word for word, is what it is until challenged and either the courts declare differently or the legislatures change the wording.

*I* just read the laws and *I* just look at the words, their use, and their meaning. If someone does not like what the law says, don't complain to *ME*, complain to the legislators who can re-write the laws and make it say what you want it to say.

Like Scott says "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck!", then it is a "duck" ... unless ... the definitions define a "duck" as an egret, then a "duck" - by definition - it is no longer a 'duck', it is an 'egret'.

what the law states, word for word, is what it is until challenged and either the courts declare differently or the legislatures change the wording

JP: Forgive me if I haven't the pluck necessary to be the Guinea pig on this one.

Originally Posted by BridgeMan

Just received a brief but official opinion back from the licensing supervisor at the Oregon Construction Contractors Board (the state agency that licenses home inspectors and building contractors). Her response to my question of whether a home inspector's license is required for someone doing in-home consulting, without a written report, for the purpose of evaluating things requiring repair:

"Consultants--not arranging for work--do not require a license."

Guess I'll work up a contract form and beat the bushes to see what happens.

But, what is their position on a Licensed Home Inspector performing an inspection without providing a written report ?

BridgeMan;

Became interested in Oregon Inspection Law since each state differs.

It seems that from the information you received back on your inquiry may revolve around a difference in being licensed. In that without a license you could perform a consultation inspection without a written report and without doing any actual work.

A quick look at the Oregon law found what seems to require that a Licensed Home Inspector is required to provide a written report if they inspect the property (more than one system).

Construction Contractors Board Home Inspectors
Who is a home inspector?
A home inspector is an individual who, for a fee, inspects and provides a written report on the overall physical condition of a residential structure. A home inspector inspects more than one structural component and provides a written report of his or her findings.

http://ccbed.ccb.state.or.us/WebPDF/...s/hi-needk.pdf
Written contracts and reports: All home inspections require a written pre-inspection contract, signed by the home inspector and the client. [812-008-0202(2)(a)]. A written inspection report is also required [812-008-0202(2)(c)]. The CCB requires no specific format for either. Consult with an attorney to make sure your contracts and reports comply with the rules.

If you are licensed it would appear that you have restrictions/requirements/mandates that a non-licensed individual are not bound to observe.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

But, what is their position on a Licensed Home Inspector performing an inspection without providing a written report ?

It only becomes an issue if somebody turns you in!

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

It only becomes an issue if somebody turns you in!

Which is typically the case in most things.

Nat's assertion that "...This whole idea that any licensee walking into a house and looking at any issue must then perform a full inspection and deliver a report is asinine. " is a weighty legal opinion if I ever heard one.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Which is typically the case in most things.

Nat's assertion that "...This whole idea that any licensee walking into a house and looking at any issue must then perform a full inspection and deliver a report is asinine. " is a weighty legal opinion if I ever heard one.

I agree.. I do all types of consulting work outside of the basic home inspection.

I have a job this afternoon that no report will be issued. I have been hired to do a walk and talk inspection before my client even makes an offer on a property. They already have some concerns and I'm just a second set of eyes for them..

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

JP: It seems that the Texas Real Estate Commission may consider itself above the law. You are not in Texas, have not fought with them for the past 15 years and would not, under any circumstance, prevail if you were here and did try.

This is not Flah-dah or Kansas. Dorothy never lived here or came to visit Donald Duck.

Just an FYI- I've given my pre-listing consultation course in the State of Texas, had an inspector report me to TREC, and they said (as my attorney said they would)- "It's not an inspection, we have no further comment".

I agree with you that TREC can be overbearing at times, but I've found them to be reasonable on many occasions as well. One thing is for sure- the regulations in that state, nor any other state, on HOME INSPECTIONS only apply to home inspections. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Nathan Thornberry

One thing is for sure- the regulations in that state, nor any other state, on HOME INSPECTIONS only apply to home inspections. Simple as that.

And "home inspections" is always defined within the statute, and that definition of "home inspection" is what applies.

"Home inspector" is also defined within the statutes, and that definition of what a "home inspector" is and does is what applies.

Typically, "home inspector" and "home inspection" are used in one or more of the definitions, so what one needs to do is to put the meaning of each in with where the term is used. That will answer many questions.

Aaron even posted where TREC allows oral opinions:
- Section 1102.001 (9) "Real estate inspection" means a written or oral opinion as to the condition of the improvements to real property, including structural items, electrical items, mechanical systems, plumbing systems, or equipment.

I suspect that there is a lot more to the Texas requirements and which will allow for those oral opinions.