Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    I recently had some difficulty swallowing what the Nat. Home Inspectors Certification Council in Canada was trying to impart to the consumer on its website and by way of a press release inferring that NHICC was accredited by ICE (Institute for Credentialing Excellence).

    National Home Inspector Certification Council

    National Certification
    "Third-party certification is a formal process for independently verifying that a product meets specific requirements or criteria."

    Third-party certification ensures that claims by home inspectors and their respective association on quality attributes of their professional commitment and credibility are sound and reliable. Therefore the NHICC maintains registration as an organization member of ICE - Institute for Credentialing Excellence to assure ongoing compliance.
    Also see the 7th link on the left of the home page of NHICC - ICE News Release. - http://www.credentialingexcellence.org/d/do/106

    Having contacted ICE to clear this up, I did receive a reply and this is what they had to say...

    Please note that industry searches are populated based on information completed by the primary contact for each member organization under their group's profile. If an organization does not appear in an industry search that is an indication that this information has not been completed on the organizational profile. If that is the case, leave the industry field blank and search on the full or partial organization name.

    There are several organizations that are members of ICE, but do not have any accredited programs. NHICC is one of these.

    The only accredited home inspector program is:

    American Society of Home Inspectors
    Certified Inspector (CI), Accredited through 6/30/2014
    One cannot be in compliance without 3rd party certification. This is equivalent to NHICC claiming that its in reasonable compliance with CAN P9 even though one of the requirements for compliance is audit by CAN P9. You can't be in reasonable compliance without audit.

    Similar Threads:
    Inspection Referral SOC

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Further

    About Us
    ICE : About Us

    PLEASE NOTE: An organization may join ICE at any time whether or not it has any programs accredited by the National Commission for Certifying Agencies (NCCA). Membership in ICE does not mean that an organization or any of its credentialing programs have been accredited, approved, or otherwise endorsed by ICE.

    NHICC is only listed as a member.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Windsor Ontario
    Posts
    363

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Where does it state the NHICC is accredited by ICE?

    "Therefore the NHICC maintains registration as an organization member of ICE - Institute for Credentialing Excellence to assure ongoing compliance." That clearly states "maintains registration as an organizational member". Nothing more and nothing less.

    Generally the information talks about third party accreditation. What exactly does that include and who did the audit?

    Is meeting 3rd party recognition by goverment entities for licensing part of that process?

    The formal evaluation of an organization according to accepted criteria or standard. Accreditation may be done by a recognized and trusted professional society, non-governmental body, or in two out two cases so far by a government agency.

    Accreditation is meant to serve as an impartial independant verification of meeting quality standards. In this case ensuring that the qualification meets national requirements or in some cases specific individual "standards" to adhere to recognition of its' registrants for the purpose of obtaining a license to practice in areas where licensing is mandated.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    From the first page of the NHICC site

    National Certification
    "Third-party certification is a formal process for independently verifying that a product meets specific requirements or criteria."

    Third-party certification ensures that claims by home inspectors and their respective association on quality attributes of their professional commitment and credibility are sound and reliable. Therefore the NHICC maintains registration as an organization member of ICE - Institute for Credentialing Excellence to assure ongoing compliance.

    The third party has not certified NHICC.
    Credibility are sound and reliable?
    Ongoing compliance?

    How can you be any of the above without the process of certification?

    PLEASE NOTE: An organization may join ICE at any time whether or not it has any programs accredited by the National Commission for Certifying Agencies (NCCA). Membership in ICE does not mean that an organization or any of its credentialing programs have been accredited, approved, or otherwise endorsed by ICE.

    Last edited by Raymond Wand; 01-18-2013 at 05:14 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,842

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    I recently had some difficulty swallowing what the Nat. Home Inspectors Certification Council in Canada was trying to impart to the consumer on its website and by way of a press release inferring that NHICC was accredited by ICE (Institute for Credentialing Excellence).

    National Home Inspector Certification Council



    Also see the 7th link on the left of the home page of NHICC - ICE News Release. - http://www.credentialingexcellence.org/d/do/106

    Having contacted ICE to clear this up, I did receive a reply and this is what they had to say...



    One cannot be in compliance without 3rd party certification. This is equivalent to NHICC claiming that its in reasonable compliance with CAN P9 even though one of the requirements for compliance is audit by CAN P9. You can't be in reasonable compliance without audit.
    That is a reasonable question. I am just going over memorandum.
    It will be interesting to see the response.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    So as an inspector if I state I am in reasonable compliance with the NHICC standards even though I have not been reviewed/audited by NHICC I guess I am okay to say that?

    Thats the message I am getting.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,842

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    So as an inspector if I state I am in reasonable compliance with the NHICC standards even though I have not been reviewed/audited by NHICC I guess I am okay to say that?

    Thats the message I am getting.
    Lets see how Claude replies to this.
    You have asked a very fundamental question about their status. Claude seems to be lacking in a solid defence Raymond.

    I suspect he is reviewing past statements and consulting with Bill. Allow them the time to explain themselves, AGAIN.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Windsor Ontario
    Posts
    363

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    The NHICC was audited within the last year by Consumer Protection BC. We received the audit report in early January. It is our understanding they will be conducting another audit again this year, which we truly look forward to. I like the fact they enforce the inspector regulation through these audits.

    At least that's a lot more than most any other association can claim. As you well know when is the last time any other association has undergone an audit from outside, particularly tied to the government. There's only a very small group of 4 that can make that claim at least in Canada, so far.

    Furthermore when was iNACHI, an ASHI chapter in Canada, the new Ontario NACHI, etc or any of those other self-proclaimed associations that self-certify, audited by an outside truly independent government entity. Not even OAHI can make that claim.

    Recognition by the government for licensing by "regulation" takes into account certification requirements and training and education, as well as supervised field training. The audit also thoroughly reviews administration and business practices. For one to assume that it does not - is simply speculation, perhaps misunderstanding or just an attempt to undermine the rigor and depth of detail for such a process.

    Is the NHICC also pursuing accreditation through ICE? The answer is YES. We also have other pokers in the fire too. We have already submitted for formal recognition through ICE. The feedback provided by ICE just like the BC audit provides suggestions on what and where to improve.

    CAHPI pursued ICE also, but because of the certain requirements found themselves in a conflict of adhering fully to the full compliance standards.

    The article published re: ICE was a product of their wordsmiths. Again - the NHICC did not claim we were formally accredited through ICE. Some have promoted that myth by certain individuals on the NACHI forum.

    The bigger question is what has the other associations done to improve their recognition and true independence? Are they concerned that they will not meet the requirements, or are afraid of the accountability?

    At the NHICC we believe is raising the bar for certification, not lowering it to see how many inspectors we can dupe, or by boasting and proclaiming they are the biggest and the best. Perhaps the biggest and best at what is the obvious question.

    To answer your question - if your file was reviewed by the auditor from Consumer Protection BC, perhaps, but that would also mean that your file was reviewed and you also are eligible to hold a license to practice there. But on the other hand individuals are not accredited for compliance - it's entities.

    On the other hand the NHICC has inspectors that have moved to BC and Alberta and been recognized by their NHI certification to practice there! In another instance one moved to Nova Scotia and he was refused recognition by CAHPI Atlantic. So much for their claimed recognition of complying with the National Certification Program.

    Last edited by Claude Lawrenson; 01-18-2013 at 11:43 AM. Reason: spelling

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Claude

    The fact is and its not only my belief is the manner in which ICE is referenced on the NHICC site is misleading in that it gives the impression that NHICC has already been accredited through membership in ICE.

    It can't be implied or stated that NHICC is meeting the accreditation because it hasn't been reviewed at this stage. Assure ongoing compliance?


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Windsor Ontario
    Posts
    363

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    A regulatory body is an organization that sets the standards and practices of a regulated occupation in two instances provincial governments. They are responsible for the issuing of a licence to practice. The regulatory bodies are responsible by setting the accepted standard. They are at arm’s length and have reviewed the specifically named and approved home inspection programs. Simply - if the program and process is not accredited by these bodies, a person will not be licensed by the regulatory body.

    "Accreditation is both a status and a process. As a status, accreditation provides public notification that a institution or program meets standards of quality set forth by an accrediting agency. As a process, accreditation reflects the fact that in achieving recognition by the accrediting agency, the institution or program is committed to self-study and external review by one's peers in seeking not only to meet standards but to continuously seek ways in which to enhance the quality of education and training provided."
    Source: What is accreditation?

    Seeking Accreditation Through Accreditation Canada | Canadian Mental Health Association, Thunder Bay Branch

    "Accreditation is a process of meeting organizational and program/service standards developed by impartial consumers, stakeholders, professionals, and provincial and national organizations. Accreditation indicates that the accredited organization has achieved an appropriate level of organizational proficiency and that it has reliable mechanisms in operation to continually improve the quality of services it delivers."
    Source: Accreditation - Purpose and Benefits

    Mirriam-Webster Dictionary - Definition of ACCREDIT
    1: to give official authorization to or approval of:
    a: to provide with credentials; especially: to send (an envoy) with letters of authorization
    b: to recognize or vouch for as conforming with a standard
    c: to recognize (an educational institution) as maintaining standards that qualify the graduates for admission to higher or more specialized institutions or for professional practice

    2: to consider or recognize as outstanding.

    Accreditation provides assurance that the program is engaged in continuous review and improvement of its' quality, that it meets nationally endorsed standards in the profession, and that it is accountable for achieving what it sets out to do, which includes living up to the claimed certification standards.

    So why pursue accreditation? One main reason is to weed out "instant and the overnight certification diploma mills”.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,842

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Not to be synical Claude but what;
    Accreditation provides assurance that the program is engaged in continuous review and improvement of its' quality, that it meets nationally endorsed standards in the profession, and that it is accountable for achieving what it sets out to do, which includes living up to the claimed certification standards.

    Provincially endorsed standards are one thing, but when it comes to the home inspection or construction industry even code, what nation standards are you talking about?
    Like that Quebec independence thing I guess. When the conditions are right they will forge ahead with separation.!

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Ya know its rather strange when a body has a history of embellishing facts.
    The last fiasco with embellishments was with CSA. Upon further investigation which I have a propensity to do when I question so called facts the facts don't always seem to be at the forefront.

    I don't think anyone would begrudge NHICC from trying to accomplish what other associations are attempting to do but when the a professional body stretches the truth repeatedly it sends a message that there is a lacking professionalism that wants to be seen as a public authority.

    When I took the time to write CMHC, CSA and other entities it was readily apparent that those entities were astonished as to what was being promoted in press releases.

    Instead of answers we get more beating around the bush.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,842

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Ya know its rather strange when a body has a history of embellishing facts.
    The last fiasco with embellishments was with CSA. Upon further investigation which I have a propensity to do when I question so called facts the facts don't always seem to be at the forefront.

    I don't think anyone would begrudge NHICC from trying to accomplish what other associations are attempting to do but when the a professional body stretches the truth repeatedly it sends a message that there is a lacking professionalism that wants to be seen as a public authority.

    When I took the time to write CMHC, CSA and other entities it was readily apparent that those entities were astonished as to what was being promoted in press releases.

    Instead of answers we get more beating around the bush.
    I am sorry to say but in my opinion these failings just keep deepening when an attitude of, I speak on behalf of the Canadian Industry, when in fact they speak for a very select hand picked audience.

    No one is jealous.
    It would be a great day when a national standards are meet but will that day every come? Remember, we are provincially separated,

    Reasonable opinion has been given towards the mountain of evidence that speaks to the contrary of being 3 party and without conflits of interest. In my opinion Claude and Bill could and should have been more inclusive with the industry and associations they say they are working for.

    Instead of being open to opinion, that closed rank attitude of defensive posturing takes place and we are back to square one again. Claude and Bill listening to Claude and Bill.
    All the best you two. This was just my opinion and nothing more.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Rec'd a further response from ICE regarding the erroneous statements NHICC made on its website.

    Third-party certification ensures that claims by home inspectors and their respective association on quality characteristic of their professional commitment and credibility are sound and reliable. Therefore the NHICC maintains registration as an organization member of ICE- Institute for Credentialing Excellence to assure ongoing compliance. The NHICC is pursuing accreditation with ICE as well as assuring representation in all areas where home inspector regulation (licensing) is mandated by the government.
    The response from ICE -
    That we do consider misleading since they’re implying that ICE membership means third-party review and ongoing compliance. We will be following up with them and asking them to remove the statement
    And while you at it you should remove the inference that NHICC is in reasonable compliance with CAN P9 which it is not!

    Further you played the same games with CSA - Canadian Standards Association, only to be found out.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Windsor Ontario
    Posts
    363

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Thank you for your input, but equally if not more so "Thanks" for your input and support about the pursuit of higher standards. The question I get time and time again is about how easy its been for some to get certified so quick, or allowed to practice with questionable education and training.

    Too bad others can't see the light. Too many other associations have equally provided as much if not more damaging information also. But two wrongs does not make it right. It is only right - if something positive is done to correct it.

    The NHICC Council information on the website was not stated with the intent to deceive.

    Information as you well know can get interpreted differently. One case in point - a person’s post that jumps from questioning membership, and in the next line “assumes” or questions being accredited.

    InterNACHI Inspection Forum 77604/index9.html#post988764

    “Can you please show me where I can find you are a member and the NHICC is listed with ICE. I have been to the ICE site numerous times and still cannot find NHICC listed anywhere as being accredited.

    Thanks... Roy”

    Fact is Roy – we are not accredited. You and a few others seem to make this your contention. Even another inspector posted this by graphic image on the "contentious" debates hosted on the NACHI forum where to find the answer to the question.
    Fact: Search ICE : Member Organization Search

    Exactly where on the NHICC website does it state that it "is accredited" by ICE?

    Of course we can debate what "reasonable compliance" means. reasonable assurance synonym | English synonyms dictionary | Reverso Collins[e%20g%20compliance%20management]

    So - is this an answer or perhaps just a "reasonable answer" or perhaps just another response?


  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,842

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Lawrenson View Post
    Thank you for your input, but equally if not more so "Thanks" for your input and support about the pursuit of higher standards. The question I get time and time again is about how easy its been for some to get certified so quick, or allowed to practice with questionable education and training.

    Too bad others can't see the light. Too many other associations have equally provided as much if not more damaging information also. But two wrongs does not make it right. It is only right - if something positive is done to correct it.

    The NHICC Council information on the website was not stated with the intent to deceive.

    Information as you well know can get interpreted differently. One case in point - a person’s post that jumps from questioning membership, and in the next line “assumes” or questions being accredited.

    InterNACHI Inspection Forum 77604/index9.html#post988764

    “Can you please show me where I can find you are a member and the NHICC is listed with ICE. I have been to the ICE site numerous times and still cannot find NHICC listed anywhere as being accredited.

    Thanks... Roy”

    Fact is Roy – we are not accredited. You and a few others seem to make this your contention. Even another inspector posted this by graphic image on the "contentious" debates hosted on the NACHI forum where to find the answer to the question.
    Fact: Search ICE : Member Organization Search

    Exactly where on the NHICC website does it state that it "is accredited" by ICE?

    Of course we can debate what "reasonable compliance" means. reasonable assurance synonym | English synonyms dictionary | Reverso Collins[e%20g%20compliance%20management]

    So - is this an answer or perhaps just a "reasonable answer" or perhaps just another response?
    Thank you Claude.
    I am satisfied with the answer you have given and know it sounds boastful but it is not meant to be.
    Please do not pursue your personal disgruntlement by aiming it at one singular member Claude. That is not fare. I my brief understanding of the NHICC, publicized media or news events have been all but successful due to unrecognized shortcomings. I will leave it at that.

    There are many dedicated Canadian home inspectors like Roy Cooke or Raymond Wand with questioning concerns. They come from all provinces to voice their opinions. All following the premature publicized mixed messages.

    As for myself. I have made many errors and admit this so openly. I am now looking hard at the facts and will do my best to be impartial "IF" I have to be.

    As Raymond graciously stated, the GREAT effort alone of committing oneself to the embitterment of home inspection nationally is truly an great effort in itself. Just trying to heard the stray cats must be an never ending chore.

    That being said; The mixed well publicized messages seem to be cross road that other follow and voice an honest opinion.

    All the best Claude. Your professional demeanor and open debate speaks highly of the man I have come to recognize as a staunch professional and think you are a very committed man. All the best as always.
    [/SIZE]

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    The folks at ICE have seen the NHICC site and wherein inferences to ICE are stated. Its the folks at ICE who feel the content is misleading. You will have to deal with them, thats where the buck stops.


  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Kevin,

    Yes the consumer is being misled by such a extravagant statement.

    I sometimes think associations should have advertising code of ethics. Some of these claims made by some inspectors is over the top.


  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Guelph,Ontario
    Posts
    169

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    I wish many more people would work as hard as Claude has to promote professionalism in our profession.
    All I keep hearing and reading is that he is not always being fourth right with information.
    Sad thing,I do not see any one stepping up to help him,rather it is much easier to complain
    For those that have all the answers,please step up and take over his job,any one up for the task?


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Harry, I would volunteer but I refuse to become a member of NHICC.

    Maybe Bill Mullen could be resurrected,... on second thought... no thats a bad idea... never mind.


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    Top Ten Complaints and Inquiries to Ministry of Consumer Services
    Top 10 Complaints and Inquiries - Ministry of Consumer Services

    Consumer Beware List
    Consumer Beware List

    Could not find any complaints regarding home inspections.


  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Windsor Ontario
    Posts
    363

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council


  23. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: National Home Inspectors Certification Council

    UPDATE

    Due to complaints brought to the attention of Standards Council Canada regarding statements made by NHICC and PHPIC those erroneous embellishments have been removed by the offending associations.

    PHPIC stated on their website: - PHPIC- Professional Home and Property Inspectors of Canada

    No other Canadian professional home inspection association can match the
    credentials of a PHPIC inspector. PHPIC’s, PHPI™ inspectors are the only
    Canadian Home Inspectors who have received accreditation through an
    independent certification body. PHPIC is the only Canadian Home and Property
    Inspection Association that is in reasonable compliance with the Standards
    Council of Canada, CAN-P-9 criteria.
    NHICC stated on their website: NHICC About Us

    In addition, all roles and responsibilities related to the NCP explicitly
    aligned to CAN-P-9 criteria (ISO certification) /or alternatively ICE - NCCA
    accredited. The status of all former "certificate holders" (Now National Home
    Inspectors™), Candidates, and accredited course providers would revert to
    that existing model prior to abolition, thus reducing the hardship on
    certificants.

    The NHICC has established that its By-Laws, Policies and Procedures that
    mirror CAN-P-9/ICE compliance. It also seeks additional accreditation with
    organizational ties that align with ISO Accreditation.
    Further from the NHICC website:

    The NHICC is a proud member of ICE – Institute for Credentialing Excellence
    And from the folks at ICE and their reply to complaints (Institute for Credentialing Excellence).

    NHICC is not accredited. However, ASHI’s program is accredited, and we also quote them in the press release. This release wasn’t meant to be about accreditation specifically but was just featuring home inspectors, so we interviewed several ICE members. We apologize for the confusion this may have caused.

    That being said, NHICC should not say this on their website: http://www.nationalhomeinspector.org/certification.pdf

    Third-party certification ensures that claims by home inspectors and their respective association on quality characteristic of their professional commitment and credibility are sound and reliable. Therefore the NHICC maintains registration as an organization member of ICE- Institute for Credentialing Excellence to assure ongoing compliance. The NHICC is pursuing accreditation with ICE as well as assuring representation in all areas where home inspector regulation (licensing) is mandated by the government.

    That we do consider misleading since they’re implying that ICE membership means third-party review and ongoing compliance. We will be following up with them and asking them to remove the statement within 30 days of receiving our request.



Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •