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  1. #1
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    Default CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    The Canadian Standards Association has been working on a CSA Standard for Home Inspection. The document is now posted for public review.

    Home Inspection (New Standard) French version coming soon | CSA Public Review System

    Inspection Referral SOC

  2. #2
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Thanks for the post Raymond - this is a critically important document that "can" have an impact on ALL Canadian home inspectors. The public consultation stage provides an opportunity for feedback. So if you have some comments or feedback to offer - make sure you do so.

    When reviewing it, remember that the home inspector representation (approximately 20%) is outweighed by consumers, contractors and others that have provided their input into the process to date. (Home owners, Building Managers, Contractors, material experts, academia, Home Inspectors, Inspection Associations, Regulators (Buildings, Public Safety), Real estate, insurance, training providers.

    "The proposed matrix category of Home Inspector (HI) seems small in proportion to the size of the TC. Shouldn’t it be larger?

    It is anticipated that the Home Inspector category of the TC membership (slide #32) would range between 1/5th and 1/3rd of the total membership. CSA Directives require that the number of members in any one category shall not be larger than the combined number of members in the two smallest categories.

    It is important to note that a broader input will be achieved through members and individuals involved with Subcommittees, Task Forces, and the Public Review stage."


  3. #3
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    I thought it was quite lengthy, and in some instances to in-depth for home inspection.

    Do not agree with providing summary, I feel summaries can lead to trouble simply because as we have discussed on various forums that some clients only read the summary missing other pertinent info which in some instances would be important to a buyer.

    Other instances are requirement to observe and note items which are not visible or really beyond a home inspection.

    Here is one instance.

    The inspector should qualitatively assess the water supply pressure at well pumps by observing the pressure gauge cut in and cut out values while the system is operating. Turning on faucets in two or more remote locations can facilitate this review. Supply on municipal systems might require backflow prevention in some jurisdictions and the inspector should record the make, model, and suitability of the valve according to supply pipe size. Really? How would I know what is called for?

    CSA seems to want to cover items that I am not even familiar with. Of course I did note the Standards were written by a P.Eng. This likely explains the over abundance of needless reporting of systems that fall outside of our current inspection standards.

    I hope it gets whittled down and the public input is not extraneous and imposing from a point of view that the public does not fully understand the inspection process and requirement or needs to make an informed decision.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Yes, the current details provide more risk on the backs of the home inspector. As an example - do we really need more risk for concealed conditions or if the material is actually carcinogenic?

    On another note that CSA Standards are mostly fee paid for use documents. This concern was raised during discussions at the Ontario H.I. licensing panel, especially relative to "legal" use.

    There are other similar documents such as the ASTM Standard for Property Guide for Property Condition Assessments. On the consumer side how many home buyers or home sellers would want to pay for the document.

    The general consent several years ago seem to be most associations seem to be against a paid fee system. We already have similar "standards" that already cover the majority of these in the scope of work descriptions. Even a baseline comparison with the current ASHI SoP, the others I have reviewed are really similar. So what is the BIG deal in creating one universal Canadian Standard when there's clear evidence that the courts in Canada have already recognized standards of practice of ASHI, CAHPI, etc.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    The Canadian Standards Association has been working on a CSA Standard for Home Inspection. The document is now posted for public review.

    Home Inspection (New Standard) French version coming soon | CSA Public Review System
    Only made it down through section 3 so far, left a few comments , will need to go back later and start at section 4 to continue on.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    OK so now I gotta lay in a crawlspace waiting for the pump to kick out with 3 faucets running upstairs? Nope, not gonna happen.

    About a month ago, we got a call from an angry tenant, Seems she came home to a dry well. Wasn't me, tho, it was the septic guy.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  7. #7
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    I wonder what Mike Holmes would have to say on the draft proposals? I guess he would have to take a sledge hammer to the CSA headquaters in order to find the answers.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Ridiculous that this went for public review in its current condition. The document is flawed.

    More appalling is that seemingly they would like to have it vetted on the backs of home inspectors gratis.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Graham,

    Welcome to the forum. I concur with your assessment.

    Best!


  10. #10
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Legal Notice for Draft Standards

    Canadian Standards Association (CSA) standards are developed through a consensus standards development process approved by the Standards Council of Canada. This process brings together volunteers representing varied viewpoints and interests to achieve consensus and develop a standard. Although CSA administers the process and establishes rules to promote fairness in achieving consensus, it does not independently test, evaluate, or verify the content of standards. During this process, CSA makes the draft standard available for comment, review, and approval.

    Disclaimer and exclusion of liability

    This is a draft document for the purpose of comment, review, and approval only. This document is provided without any representations, warranties, or conditions of any kind, expressed or implied, including, without limitation, implied warranties or conditions concerning this document’s fitness for a particular purpose or use, its merchantability, or its non-infringement of any third party’s intellectual property rights. CSA does not warrant the accuracy, completeness, or currency of any of the information published in this document. CSA makes no representations or warranties regarding this document’s compliance with any applicable statute, rule, or regulation.

    IN NO EVENT SHALL CSA, ITS VOLUNTEERS, MEMBERS, SUBSIDIARIES, OR AFFILIATED COMPANIES, OR THEIR EMPLOYEES, DIRECTORS, OR OFFICERS, BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, INJURY, LOSS, COSTS, OR EXPENSES, HOWSOEVER CAUSED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO SPECIAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, LOST REVENUE, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, LOST OR DAMAGED DATA, OR ANY OTHER COMMERCIAL OR ECONOMIC LOSS, WHETHER BASED IN CONTRACT, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), OR ANY OTHER THEORY OF LIABILITY, ARISING OUT OF OR RESULTING FROM ACCESS TO OR POSSESSION OR USE OF THIS DOCUMENT, EVEN IF CSA HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, INJURY, LOSS, COSTS, OR EXPENSES.

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    CSA is a private not-for-profit company that publishes voluntary standards and related documents. CSA has no power, nor does it undertake, to enforce compliance with the contents of the standards or other documents it publishes.

    Intellectual property rights and ownership

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    Authorized use of this document

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    Limited copies of this document in print or paper form may be distributed only to persons who are authorized by CSA to have such copies, and only if this Legal Notice appears on each such copy.

    In addition, users may not and may not permit others to

    • alter this document in any way or remove this Legal Notice from the attached draft standard;

    • sell this document without authorization from CSA; or

    • make an electronic copy of this document.

    If you do not agree with any of the terms and conditions contained in this Legal Notice, you may not load or use this document or make any copies of the contents hereof, and if you do make such copies, you are required to destroy them immediately. Use of this document constitutes your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this Legal Notice.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    This is very interesting......to say the least.

    "Assignment of copyright

    A user who provides a comment to CSA in relation to this document agrees that the entire copyright in the comment is hereby assigned to CSA and waives all associated moral rights, such that CSA is the exclusive owner of such comment and may use such comment as it sees fit. The user, being the sole owner of the copyright or having the authority to assign the copyright on behalf of his or her employer, confirms his or her ability to assign the copyright in a comment provided to CSA."


  12. #12
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Lawrenson View Post
    This is very interesting......to say the least.

    "Assignment of copyright

    A user who provides a comment to CSA in relation to this document agrees that the entire copyright in the comment is hereby assigned to CSA and waives all associated moral rights, such that CSA is the exclusive owner of such comment and may use such comment as it sees fit. The user, being the sole owner of the copyright or having the authority to assign the copyright on behalf of his or her employer, confirms his or her ability to assign the copyright in a comment provided to CSA."
    Basically, it has to be such, otherwise everyone who makes a comment which is ultimately used would (could) claim a copyright for their comment(s) ... that would be a complete nightmare.

    If you do not participate ... then no one can say that you were not given a chance to participate but you declined to do so.

    I made some (many) comments on the few sections I've gone through so far - what I wonder is do I only see my comments or are all comments seen by all reviewers? If the person who made comments only sees their comments, then they can (should) expect to receive multiple similar comments, whereas showing all reviewers all comments would help not only reduce that, but seeing another comment may click the light on and another can improve on the comment (like happens in open meetings and open discussions).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Parts of the standard will make life simple for you guys: (bold is mine)
    "
    Inspections are not required on systems and components that are blocked by furniture or other items (e.g. stored items), require tools for disassembly of covers or are otherwise not readily accessible to a visual inspection except as explicitly required in this standard.
    "

    No longer would you have to remove a cover which is held in place with screws or would requires a tool to remove the cover.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Parts of the standard will make life simple for you guys: (bold is mine)
    "
    Inspections are not required on systems and components that are blocked by furniture or other items (e.g. stored items), require tools for disassembly of covers or are otherwise not readily accessible to a visual inspection except as explicitly required in this standard.
    "

    No longer would you have to remove a cover which is held in place with screws or would requires a tool to remove the cover.
    We already have those basic disclaimers in our SOP's.
    Everybody knows that you can't do a standard inspection of the electrical panel without moving junk aside and removing the cover.
    You can't tell people the age and condition of the mobile home water heater without moving junk aside and removing the wall panel.
    You can't access the crawlspace unless you remove move junk aside and remove screws, etc.

    I look forward to one good standard for all, but have you ever sat down with 100 home inspectors and got them to agree on anything? Now try that with 3,000 inspectors.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  15. #15
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    It's a goat roping mess! It reminds of the attempt by ASTM to write a national standard for home inspectors in the States. Just a gosh awful mess!

    I really have never understood why folks are constantly trying to reinvent the inspection standard wheel with the creation of new and "better" standards. Pretty much anyone or any government body in any country can have access and use of a proven and tested home inspection standard. ASHI will make available it's updated Standard in a sanitized non association bias format just for the asking. All they ask is for credit to be given to their organization. I know, I know Canada wants it to be a Canadian written document.....and apparently regardless of the outcome....

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  16. #16
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Well Scott you would not know this but I did put a good light on ASHI Inspectors in Ontario. When I first discussed the problems, I did not support the efforts of the CSA. I still support one standard for SOP.
    Many do not realize it but a couple home inspector groups (non-ASHI) in Canada have been using ASHI Standards for awhile.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  17. #17
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Parts of the standard will make life simple for you guys: (bold is mine)
    "
    Inspections are not required on systems and components that are blocked by furniture or other items (e.g. stored items), require tools for disassembly of covers or are otherwise not readily accessible to a visual inspection except as explicitly required in this standard.
    "

    No longer would you have to remove a cover which is held in place with screws or would requires a tool to remove the cover.
    "except as explicitly required in this standard."


  18. #18
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiernan Streold View Post
    "except as explicitly required in this standard."
    And, if not "explicitly required" ... then it is "not required" ... and ... (although I may have missed it) ... I did not find anywhere in those CSA standards which "explicitly required" ANY covers or panels to be removed or opened - not for water heaters, not for heating or cooling equipment, not for electrical, etc.

    Please review section 5 where it tells about what is to be done and find where it "explicitly requires" a cover or panel to be opened or removed and post that for me (as I said, I may have missed it).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #19

    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiernan Streold View Post
    "except as explicitly required in this standard."
    Kiernan, Good point, but I also see in section 1.4

    "In CSA Standards:

    “shall” is used to express a requirement, i.e., a provision that the user is obliged to satisfy in order to comply with the standard;
    “should” is used to express a recommendation or that which is advised but not required;
    “may” is used to express an option or that which is permissible within the limits of the standard;
    “can” is used to express possibility or capability.

    Notes accompanying clauses do not include requirements or alternative requirements; the purpose of a note accompanying a clause is to separate from the text explanatory or informative material.

    Notes to tables and figures are considered part of the table or figure and may be written as requirements.

    Annexes are designated normative (mandatory) or informative (non-mandatory) to define their application. "

    I notice this standard is full of "should", "may" and "can" with not a substantive amount of "shall". There are no normative Annexes.

    When compared side-by-side to the ACHI or ASHI standards already in play, there is little in the mandatory sections that differ from what is already published, and indeed some would say less. There are a lot of increases in the liability in the optional areas, which are defined by a new mandatory scoping requirement, but these are also clearly defined in the ACHI and ASHI SoPs along with recommendations from the Inspection Organisations to ensure proper scope is identified AND explained to the client PRIOR to an Inspection.

    What I hoped for out of the CSA was some fantastic piece of work that would give details to guide and protect home inspectors whilst at the same time ensure the scope of the Inspection process and procedures would be detailed yet unambiguous to guide the public to have more confidence in what is on offer a part of a Home Inspection.

    What I see is a wishy-washy rework of a poor combination of what has been developed, and regularly updated, over a number of years by the professionals working in the industry. It is self-promoting and points to other standards that will no doubt increase the coffers of the CSA and the costs to the profession.

    Still the governments and their "plausible deniability" agencies don't realise a fundamental fact: Home Inspections, unlike electrical work, HVAC installations, plumbing are NOT MANDATORY. Any increase in cost that has to get passed on to the consumer reduces the likelihood of a Home Inspection. In increases the risk to the consumer. It increases the likelihood of business failure to the Home Inspector. Increases the burden on the taxpayer. Increases the burden on the legal system. It makes any task of regulating the profession harder, more costly and more importantly...............go back to start of this paragraph.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Rather interesting feedback from CSA program manager.

    I have sent two emails to CSA requesting info.

    Email # 1 to CSA

    ... I have reviewed the draft CSA standards on Home Inspections, and I am curious as to who is on the technical committee. Can you tell me who is on the committee?

    Reply from CSA to Email # 1.

    The Technical Committee is comprised of members in four different categories:

    · Home Inspector members including representatives from associations such as CAHPI (National), CanNACHI, InterNACHI (Provincial Chapter), PHPIC, as well as large firms and other independent home inspectors

    · Consumer Interest members including representatives from Consumers Council of Canada, Homeowner Protection Centre, and the CSA Consumer Representative program

    · General Interest members including representatives from trades, insurance, colleges, and real estate

    · Regulators representing consumer interests from a number of provinces and territories

    If you have technical comments on the draft, you can use the Public Review system to ensure that CSA receive them. At the close of Public Review, the Technical Committee will review and may use to make modifications.
    Email # 2 to CSA

    ... Can you tell me the names of the individuals on the committee?
    Thank you.

    Reply from CSA to Email # 2.

    The membership on a Technical Committee is subject to change during the development phase, with the official membership being the one that approves the standard at the final ballot. A committee membership list is not publicly distributed at this point, but will be included in the final published standard.
    Why the secrecy? I would have thought since the public and industry related people have been asked for comment to CSA A770 the names would be publicly available. I don't think its acceptable for inspectors not to know the names of those who are deciding our fate. Something wrong with this equation in my mind.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    CSA Community Blog
    Public Review Update: Home Inspection Standard A770
    Posted by Paul Gulletson in Construction and Engineering on Oct 29, 2014 4:28:00 PM

    After two weeks of public review, we have received 400 comments from 285 people. As expected, there is a great deal of public interest in this important standard! The public review draft can be seen here:

    Home Inspection (New Standard) | CSA Public Review System
    58 Views Tags:


  22. #22
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    ..........

    Why the secrecy? I would have thought since the public and industry related people have been asked for comment to CSA A770 the names would be publicly available. I don't think its acceptable for inspectors not to know the names of those who are deciding our fate. Something wrong with this equation in my mind.

    Secrecy, possibly so that they could not contacted and their opinion swayed. Tough it would be nice for the condemned to know who is sitting on the jury while the trial is going on.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    OK so now I gotta lay in a crawlspace waiting for the pump to kick out with 3 faucets running upstairs? Nope, not gonna happen.
    ......
    And how would be such a hardship to note the high and low limits to the well pump settings? Then again the pump may not be able to service the volume required with valves opened and you might be there for the rest of your life or till someone came looking for you. Provided that the SOP did not provide any time requirement/criteria on the testing.

    Then if you were not to do this if required by law it would only mean that you would not inspect any properties with a well, problem solved...


  24. #24
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    This whole licencing issue and CSA is not home inspector driven, its driven by politicians who have an agenda, a reason to collect more money, conflicts of interest, business interests, association politics and misrepresentation of facts to suit the agendas.

    Secrecy has been the better part of it. When you want answers all you get is politically correct answers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Draft Standard CSA-A770 Home Inspection

    Why The Urgency!

    As you may or may not be aware, the Government of Alberta has hired CSA to write a CSA Standard for Home Inspections! If you enjoy your work as a Home Inspector you must get involved as this will dramatically change the way you do business. Hopefully I have your attention as your input is needed. This will take a few minutes to read.

    In light of all the e-mails and forums out there we must all realize that change is upon us. This is no longer about “Us” the home inspector. CSA, as an independent body that speaks on behalf of “Stake Holders”, (today’s fancy words for “Society / Everyone Involved”). It’s the consensus of your Board of Directors that both Licensing in Ontario and a CSA Standard are inevitable. As opposed to taking a “The Sky is Fall Approach” we suggest taking a positive stand to help insure that we get the best possible Rules and Regulations in order to provide realistic “Consumer Protection”. (“realistic” based on what a home inspector can realistically do, as a guest in a strangers home, during a pre-purchase home inspection.)

    “Draft Standard CSA-A770 Home Inspection” was released on October 16th requesting public input by Dec. 15, 2014. Provide your comments at; http://publicreview.csa.ca/Home/Details/1368

    Background:

    Because Licensing in Alberta has not been as successful as originally envisioned, the Alberta Government has turned to CSA (Canadian Standards Association) to write and official Standard for Home Inspections. There is an implied assumption that it will then be implemented by Governments across Canada. Here in Ontario the Ministry of Government and Consumer Services have been waiting for this document as they continue to consider Licensing Legislation. (Note Premier of Ontario has mandated to continue with the Licensing project)

    OAHI Approach:

    Typically the OAHI has an individual committee review and prepare a report , on behalf of the membership, regarding such matters. However, CSA’s policy is such that they want feedback from individuals, hence a submission from OAHI and one from you personally will be, for the most part, judged with equal merit !

    Based on this your Board members will be out and actively participating in this month’s Regional Meeting Groups, to encourage discussion and member participation in reviewing CSA-A770. Then closer to the end of the month, when more members have gotten involved, we’d like to do a pole regarding your comments on a number of points. There are no restrictions as to your membership level in the OAHI as all members of the public are welcome to participate in reviewing CSA-A770. Don’t be afraid to share the CSA link with others, Realtors included!

    CSA Points to get your attention!

    The following are a couple of quotes and comments from/regarding the report:

    Condominiums:

    It suggests in the report that home inspectors should be responsible for reviewing the “Statues Certificate” as part of a home inspection:

    Landscaping / Quote:

    “major plantings should be inspected for overall health, as well as presence of invasive species”

    Concrete Slabs / Quote (basements / garage floors):

    “Measurements of level and variation from plane should be made using a long spirit level, laser level, or similar device and wide cracks should be measured with suitable gauges as opposed to being estimated”.

    Decks:

    It implies that decks will become more of a “Municipal Code” inspection. How many municipalities to you work in?

    Other:

    There are suggestions for home inspectors to check HRV balancing via the CMHC “Garbage Bag Test” and use a Smoke Pencil around doors and widow to check for drafts.

    Conclusion:

    Hopefully the above points have sparked your attention enough to get involved. On behalf of the OAHI I urge you to go to the web-site below before Dec. 15th and register your comments. Remember, if we focus on “Consumer Protection” and calm down our emotions long enough to be subjective and remain positive with our comments, we should get a lot further than taking “The Sky is Falling” approach.

    Again it’s: http://publicreview.csa.ca/Home/Details/1368

    Note: We are currently waiting for a document from CSA that will better explain the process followed to formulate the “Draft”. If it’s not included / attached with this letter it will be forwarded as soon as we receive it.


    Many Thanks and “Please” get involved !
    Bruce McClure RHI,ACI / OAHI President


  25. #25
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    That's a very fair assessment from OAHI, the way I see it.


  26. #26
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    Exclamation Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    That's a very fair assessment from OAHI, the way I see it.
    Here's another assessment - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cost-...lkA1ZJUDU1NV8x

    Especially interesting on how the inspection sector in Canada and consumers will be dramatically impacted. How many clients will be willing to cough up $1000 or more for a home inspection? How many vendors will be willing to permit several days in their home to fulfill the proposed completion of the CSA standards?


  27. #27
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    If adopted, the proposed new Standard oversteps the accepted Standards used throughout North America. It has the potential to negatively impact the Real Estate Industry as a whole. What is unknown is how Home Sellers, Home Buyers and Realtors will react to a Home Inspection that could take 1 to 2 days to complete.

    If this proposed Standard is accepted, it could effectively cripple the industry as we know it. Home inspectors from across Alberta urge everyone to give their input.
    I would like to be a fly on the wall to hear what Laura Leyser has been saying on the subject since the new standard would affect her profession just as much as ours. Remember she was gung ho on having CREA push for licencing back several years ago in London Ontario, @ the home inspector licencing conference.

    Becareful what you wish for Laura.


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    That is some halarious stuff. LOL
    So - what happened to the primarily "visual" only inspection?

    Home inspectors advertising the use of all these tools now created a new level of expectation. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying it leads to raising the inspection expectation bar.

    Perhaps the next tool will be x-ray vision to verify frame spacing, and what's concealed in the construction.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Home Inspection Standards are not a new phenomenon to home inspectors. ASHI (the American Society of Home Inspectors) the oldest North American association for home inspectors has been in existence and flourishing since 1976. It regularly goes through a very rigorous process of reviewing and updating its Standards of Practice. The last updated version was released within the last year. The Standards of Practice (SOP) provides a detailed scope of work for conducting a home inspection. It provides a detailed list of what’s included or excluded from a home inspection. The vast majority of offshoot home inspection associations can trace the roots of their version of the Standards of Practice as a derivative of the ASHI SOP. Even legal court outcomes cite reference to established Standards of Practice.

    Bottom line – consumers and consumer protection agencies need to be part of the education and communication process acknowledging and understanding what home inspectors really do or do not do as “general technical home inspection” professionals. Ultimately the expectation level must simply be tempered to reflect a reasonable occupational scope of work norm.


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    A reply from CSA and which I also had confirmed in a conversation with them today.
    And further to Claudes answers above he provided as to members names on the panel.

    The Technical Committee is comprised of members in four different categories:

    Home Inspector members including representatives from home inspection associations, large firms, and independent home inspectors
    *Consumer Interest members including representatives from various group across Canada
    *General Interest members including representatives from trades, insurance, colleges, and real estate
    *Regulators representing consumer interests from a number of provinces and territories


    The membership on a Technical Committee is subject to change during the development phase, with the official membership being the one that approves the standard at the final ballot. A committee membership list is not publicly distributed at this point, but will be included in the final published standard.



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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Do Home Inspectors really need a CSA Standard?

    The CSA Group (Canadian Standards Association) is well into the process of developing a home inspection standard. Currently it is in the public consultation stage. Initially it was viewed as an opportunity for all home inspectors and inspection associations to once and for all find common ground. Compliance with the CSA standard is voluntary, unless legislated by government or mandated by industry or trade associations. Herein lays the issue. Licensing already exists in several provinces. It is under serious consideration in several others.

    Although I believe that the intention was to satisfy the best interest of consumers, to my understanding the standard committee makeup represents consumers, consumer protection agencies, contractors, educators, insurer, realtors, and of course a handful of home inspectors. One concern is the imbalance in the number of home inspectors in relation to all other stakeholders. Less than 1/3rd of the committee, which brings this proposed standard forward, represents home inspectors; does dominance exist?

    A claim of dominance is considered a procedural grievance that is eligible for review within the appeals process at the standards developer level. In this regards excerpts from the American National Standards Institute Essential Requirements - The standards development process shall not be dominated by any single interest category, individual or organization. Dominance means a position or exercise of dominant authority, leadership, or influence by reason of superior leverage, strength, or representation to the exclusion of fair and equitable consideration of other viewpoints.

    Home Inspection Standards are not a new phenomenon to home inspectors. ASHI (the American Society of Home Inspectors) the oldest North American association for home inspectors has been in existence and flourishing since 1976. It regularly goes through a very rigorous process of reviewing and updating its Standards of Practice. The last updated version was released within the last year. The Standards of Practice (SOP) provides a detailed scope of work for conducting a home inspection. It provides a detailed list of what’s included or excluded from a home inspection. The vast majority of offshoot home inspection associations can trace the roots of their version of the Standards of Practice as a derivative of the ASHI SOP. Even legal court outcomes cite reference to established Standards of Practice.

    Additionally, a number of occupational reviews have been successfully completed over the past decade within Canada by subject matter experts and qualified facilitators. Two of these were substantially funded in the past at the federal level by CMHC and HRSDC. The latest unfunded one was completed by the NHICC (National Home Inspector Certification Council) within the past year, with the support of a wide range of home inspectors representing a large number of Canadian home inspection associations.

    To date National Occupational Standards have been formed through the DACUM process. DACUM (Developing A CurriculUM) is a quick, effectively, relatively low cost method of analyzing jobs and occupations that has been used worldwide for more than 40 years. The DACUM process involves the careful selection of individuals from the occupation who become the “Panel of Experts” who collectively and cooperatively describe the occupation in the language of the occupation. DACUM is an occupational analysis led by a trained facilitator, where practitioners in a specific occupation come together for a multiday workshop to provide input about the specific duties, tasks, knowledge, skills and abilities needed to perform their job. DACUM provides a legally defensible basis for assessment and certification.

    In reviewing recent feedback from a number of sources, it appears a large number of home inspectors are not supportive of the proposed CSA Standard for Home Inspection. In studying the proposed current release a number of concerns immediately come to light. These include and are not limited to the additional work and duties (new expectations) are specified within the document. The impact of the additional time and specifics required to fulfil the proposed “performance” standards will ultimately drive up the cost of a home inspection. Others have pointed to the higher level of risk based on adding other duties and tasks in a home inspection that are normally excluded from the expertise of most home inspectors. These higher risks provide the stimulus for a higher rate of claims which not only impacts insurance rates; it is known to drive some inspectors out of business. From a consumer perspective what may be currently deemed a reasonable inspection cost will significantly reduce the affordability of the service.

    The question is – “Why re-invent the wheel?”

    The industry has already created National Standards. Home inspectors have operated for well over 3 decades performing to a recognized Standard of Practice. All that is needed is for everyone to consider the value, content and framework based on years of commitment, development and research that applies to what the Canadian Home Inspection sector already created. Even the latest assessment of National Occupational Standards was completed under the facilitation of experienced independent “DACUM” consultants, with a multi-association panel of Canadian Home Inspectors. Simply it works, it’s time tested, and equally as important it has value in establishing the baseline for what consumers should expect from a scope of work for a home inspection from a competent home inspector.

    Here’s a recent news piece example “Cost of Alberta Home Inspections to Soar”
    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cost-...lkA1ZJUDU1NV8x

    “A typical Home Inspection today, ranges in price from $400 - $600. The proposed changes could easily put future cost in the range of $1200 - $1800 or more. If adopted, the proposed new Standard oversteps the accepted Standards used throughout North America. It has the potential to negatively impact the Real Estate Industry as a whole. What is unknown is how Home Sellers, Home Buyers and Realtors will react to a Home Inspection that could take 1 to 2 days to complete.”

    Is this proposed CSA standard really beneficial to consumers or is it overkill? To me it’s a substantial re-do of what already exists, positioned on making the inspector responsible for almost every property condition that may be encountered on a “used” home. Or perhaps if the intent is to cull the home inspector cadre and devalue what currently exist. Perhaps offering a new paradigm, that ultimately increases the professional requirements to the level that requires years of training and expertise. Perhaps offering a home inspector the equivalent of a 6% fee based on the value of property, in order to fairly compensate for that higher level of risk and reduced work potential. After all, home inspections on resale property are not mandatory!

    Side note: ASTM (a comparable recognized standards association) in the USA tried this scenario on US home inspectors several years ago. It failed miserably. A coalition of inspection associations banned together and it was quickly dropped from moving forward.
    The only way to determine what home inspectors do is to go to the source and solicit the expertise of those workers deemed subject matter experts. DACUMS already achieved that in the past. Why try to reinvent and supersede what is already available from the occupational standard?

    Bottom line – consumers and consumer protection agencies need to be part of the education and communication process acknowledging and understanding what home inspectors really do or do not do as “general technical home inspection” professionals. Ultimately the expectation level must simply be tempered to reflect a reasonable occupational scope of work norm.


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Well I am not impressed with DACUM -NOS, its a mess too.

    I would rather have a standard developed and refined by "all" inspectors and associated parties.

    This is our opportunity to make sure the draft proposal from CSA is the best it can be. Don't miss the opportunity or those of you who sit on your laurels have no reason to bitch when the final product is released.

    CSA is committed to hearing from everyone and thus far are pleased with the feedback. Its ultimately the panels decision on what is included and excluded.


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    I'm sure that no standard claims perfection. I'd be equally interested to hear how DACUMS and the creation of the NOS fail. However, the NOS / DACUMS represent actual home inspector worker input on what the sector inspects as part of a standard home inspection. SOP's have been developed, field applied, and time tested in courts across North America. So they must have some relevance.

    On a very recent comparative study level of SOPs and DACUM/NOS results, they all pretty much based on a line by line approach require the same itemized "scope of work" to be performed. There are no huge gaps.

    The CSA Standard is largely a regurgitation of what already exists, and in my opinion a wish list of some unrealistic consumer expectations. However, are or will inspectors be willing or capable of adding this to their list just to name a few?

    Added from the “proposed” CSA Standard
    5.2.7 Automatic irrigation systems
    5.3.9 Detached storage buildings, garages, and barns
    5.5.2 Grey water reuse supply
    5.5.7 Grey water discharge systems
    5.7.6 Pipe heat tracing
    5.8.5 Emergency lighting
    5.10 Barrier free equipment
    5.10.1 Accessibility equipment
    5.10.2 Accessible use
    5.10.3 Alarm devices
    5.11 Swimming pools and associated mechanical systems
    5.11.1 Pool area
    5.11.2 Mechanical system
    Or how about from the ASHI SOP?
    Appliances – installed ovens, ranges, surface cooking appliances, microwave ovens, dish washing machines, and food waste grinders using normal operating controls to activate the primary function

    As an example although I have previously inspected a few barrier free homes, it is interesting that the clients purchasing the property did not require or raise the issue of needing those features. In fact their concern was more about the extra work and costs to remove those features.

    Besides even buildings codes, at least in Canada, exempt dwelling units from barrier free design, unless specifically required by the occupant.

    What about emergency lighting and irrigation equipment; are these really necessities in a standard home inspection, or even above and beyond a code review expectation on a dwelling unit?

    Will pool inspections and it's related equipment now become the expected norm?

    Even as a home inspector do you or others inspect for invasive species of noxious plants such as poison ivy that may be lurking on a wooded lot or even unwooded lot? Seems the proposed CSA standard would prove detrimental if one was challenged in court on that issue.

    How many new specialist and how much more time will it take to satisfy a CSA standard home inspection?

    All Canadian home inspectors should be concerned. But from a balanced approach at the "committee" level, more importantly will our voices and comments really carry the weight to achieve a normal rational norm of what home inspectors really are capable of inspecting?


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    http://www.home-inspectors.com/Sun_Media_Article1.pdf

    Home inspectors to meet national standards | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

    I guess NHICC should be careful what it wished for! How ironic, now NHICC has soured on the whole CSA collaboration.


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    http://www.home-inspectors.com/Sun_Media_Article1.pdf

    Home inspectors to meet national standards | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

    I guess NHICC should be careful what it wished for! How ironic, now NHICC has soured on the whole CSA collaboration.
    The NHICC takes the position that a "fair balance" is required to move the proposed CSA Home Inspection forward. The current CSA standard panel composition appears to put the stakeholders collectively in the position of deciding what the future of the home inspection standard will be. Additionally, there's no commentary on what the home inspection associations have done over the past several decades. To forgo the work, time and efforts, financial funding and findings of the previous and past home inspection standards and than charge for the use of the CSA standard would simply be also unfair and an insult to those involved.

    The previous releases you refer to a date back to a time when the NHICC was approached to be the spear head group that seem to satisfy what CSA was looking for. As we now know, that proposal was shelved when the other home inspection associations felt aggrieved and than inundated the CSA with their commentaries.

    This only helped prove that home inspection associations do not seem for the large part interested in finding common ground. Perhaps CSA's panel composition approach may be wrong, along with the addition of increasing the scope of work in the high risk duties, but certainly the intent of creating one national standard recognized by one and all is in the best interest of the home inspection sector.


  37. #37
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    You forgetting that they stuck there noes into S.S.M with the 2 year Home Inspections Technician Program at Sault College.
    Now changed to reflect what the object of the course was.
    I could take and goggle it but it is easy for anyone to find OK.
    Respectfully Kevin - that was not CSA, and certainly was not the NHICC. Neither had anything to do with the 2 year program at the college as you suggest.

    Mike Holmes Inspections | Training

    From the above link - "In January 2011, Mike Holmes partnered with Sault College to introduce a 2-year Inspection Diploma Program. The purpose of the program is to ensure future inspectors acquire the necessary credentials, training and experience to improve the home inspections industry in Canada."

    Programs and Courses - Home Inspection Technician :: Sault College

    Mike Holmes visits Sault College for home inspe... | Sault Star


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Now that the names of the "panel" seems open and posted, lets start with the home inspector contingent named.

    How many are associated with either CAHPI or iNACHI? Does this also speak to the concern of unfair representation? How many possibly sit in more than one role? I fail to see balance representation even in that category.

    You see the more you analyze the representation, the more the need to be concerned about what may be eventually forced upon home inspectors.


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Members on the CSA A770 Home Inspector panel.

    *Members:G. Yates(Chair), R. Guinn(Vice-Chair), D. Aylward, D. Babott, M. Barnes, R. Brady, G. Clarke, J. Eakes, G.R. Genge, R. Hanberg, J.A. Huzar, R. Jobin, D. Kendall, G.R. Larin, L. Leyser, M. Lio, J. Londerville, S. Low, D. Mah, J. Mills, P. Sayne, K. Smith, B. Swan, J. Thomson, T. Welby-Solomon, M. Wellsch, J. Wright
    Associates: B.M. Collie, S. Hood, B. Mullen, J. Urquhart
    For Information: K. Fenning, J. Ko
    (RAC)
    Members. Aylward, M. Barnes, D. Brezer, K.E. Hanson, S. Hood, J. Ko, G. MacKinnon-Peters, D. Murray, M. Wellsch, G. Yates, B. Greer, A. Nicholson, A. Skelton, C. Stewart, B. Valido*


    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Raymond Wand; 11-26-2014 at 10:55 AM.

  40. #40
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    I don't know who got the legal opinion, but in my opinion and according to the Competition Bureau of Canada, the CSA A770 standards would not be seen as anti competitive in nature.

    Abuse of Dominance: a Serious Anti-competitive Offence - Competition Bureau
    The Abuse of Dominance Provisions - Competition Bureau

    There is no control or dominance, CSA does not set prices, nor does it hinder in any manner entry into the inspection business. Their is no conspiracy or collusion to control the market.


  41. #41
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    I don't trust anyone! There are so many skeletons in the closet with some of these players who say they represent the profession.

    Its a very good point you raise about the associations trying to dominate because that appears to be what is happening! Notice how the crap and baloney gets posted on Nachi forum? These people have not a clue. Competition (monopoly via CSA) breach my arse.


  42. #42
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    I truly hope that B. Mullen listed is not the B. Mullen we all have come to mistrust. If it is he has no business on any panel given his fraudulent misuse of RHI, false advertising and conduct unbecoming.


  43. #43
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    I don't trust anyone! There are so many skeletons in the closet with some of these players who say they represent the profession.

    Its a very good point you raise about the associations trying to dominate because that appears to be what is happening! Notice how the crap and baloney gets posted on Nachi forum? These people have not a clue. Competition (monopoly via CSA) breach my arse.
    According to ANSI - 1.2 Lack of dominance
    The standards development process shall not be dominated by any single interest category, individual or
    organization. Dominance means a position or exercise of dominant authority, leadership, or influence by reason of superior leverage, strength, or representation to the exclusion of fair and equitable consideration of other viewpoints.

    2.2 Lack of dominance
    Unless it is claimed in writing (including electronic communications) by a directly and materially affected party that a single interest category, individual or organization dominated the standards development process, no test for dominance is required.

    Whether balance exists on an ANS consensus body is a numerical determination based on the
    applicable procedures and the interest categories relevant to the nature of the standard.


  44. #44
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    According to ANSI - 1.2 Lack of dominance
    The standards development process shall not be dominated by any single interest category, individual ororganization. Dominance means a position or exercise of dominant authority, leadership, or influence by reason of superior leverage, strength, or representation to the exclusion of fair and equitable consideration of other viewpoints.
    But the development has not been dominated by single interests, the make up of the panel is diverse.
    2.2 Lack of dominance
    Unless it is claimed in writing (including electronic communications) by a directly and materially affected party that a single interest category, individual or organization dominated the standards development process, no test for dominance is required.
    Which leads me to ask: Has anything been put in writing, and further these are American standards which are not recognized in Canada.

    One reason this whole licencing and CSA standards have most likely resulted is because the home inspection biz in Ontario and Canada is so fractured, there is no cohesive voice representing the profession. Its been each association vying for their own dominance and I am most certain the government bodies have clued in on this resulting in the predicament we now find ourselves once again.

    I have yet to see anyone of these associations actually do something above board the whole bloody mess is the result of egos, special interests, politics, friends looking out after friends. No one to blame but the management of the associations who answer to know one!


  45. #45
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    So what internationally recognized standard does CSA use as the standard to develop this proposed standard? I know it's not ANSI, but it was offered as a point of comparison to one common standard recognized internationally.

    However, it's interesting to note that ANSI standards are recognized in both provincial and the national building code in Canada. Here's one of many examples - ANSI/ASHRAE 62.1-2010


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Thanks, I did not realize that ANSI is recognized in Canada.

    On another note; do you not find all the anger directed at CSA misguided? After all CSA is only doing what its doing at the behest of government interests. Shouldn't all the blame be directed (in Ontario) at the MCS and the manner in which they orchestrated this licencing endeavour?

    The blame does not lie at the feet of CSA. As to the make up of the panel, many so called experts, but very few with trench experience. You can bet your sweet bippy that all those questionable standards were not from the home inspector contingent.

    Since it was stated that the make up of the panel could chang or be changed, perhaps its time to refresh the make up of the panel?

    People on panels holding themselves out to the public and government entities with credentials they do not have a right to use and knowingly purport themselves as members of an association of which they are not is very serious. I think everyone would agree they should step down or be removed. So far not one association has stepped up to the plate. Talk about conflicts ... talk about passing the buck, it could be a mini series.


  47. #47
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    I do not have a problem with one universal home inspection standard in Canada. I do have an issue with the potential for making a new "animal" out of trying to mix what home inspectors have basically done for decades, and decide to throw new expectations from those that largely have an opinion about what home inspectors should do.

    I keep referencing the DACUM process. The process involved in Dacum is to conduct a job analysis to determine the range of skills required to perform the job. In the home inspection sector who is best qualified to decide what home inspectors do, stakeholders or home inspectors? Ultimately the proposed standard will only work if the final product is relevant to most every home inspector. Right now the comments appear to indicate it's flawed in a number of areas.

    One scenario proposed - should home inspectors take on systems and components such as irrigation equipment and pool equipment, etc, to name a few new responsibilities, on a typical or standard home inspection? In this area a huge gap exist between those that would actually be competent enough to accept those two additional tasks alone. Now what about the other proposed new additional responsibilities?

    I have always believed that most home purchasers are concerned with the main components of a house; not the other possible add-on that would not impact the key purpose of conducting (keyword) "home" inspection - impact on structure, the health living in the home and safety concerns.

    Likewise, I'm not against the proposed standard providing reference to other types of related specific inspection services, or referencing the need for other professionals to be employed for their expertise. Why place this as another level of risk on a home inspector. Of course the other way to satisfy that is for the consumer to ultimately pay for those extra services.

    Regarding the panel makeup - the decision on who was selected is history. You can agree, like have on who, or why, or balance or imbalance. But currently, it is what it is! Coincidentally I know several people that applied, including myself, that were not accepted. So all I can say is I tried. C'est la vie!

    None-the-less, who best understands what home inspectors do? As Judge Stansfield noted in Brownjohn v. Ramsay, 2003 BCPC 2 (CanLII), home inspectors themselves are engaged in a high-risk business, because the inspector virtually invites reliance.

    So the more unknowns added to the "to-do" standards list, the more that high-risk can now be categorized as extremely high risk. Again will this ultimately cause many inspectors to leave.


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Halliwell v. Lazarus, 2011 ONSC 390 Date: 2011-01-18

    [86] During argument I asked several times for Mr. Edwards’ counsel to explain what value was there in a home inspection that by its terms and conditions purported to remove responsibility for everything except what could be seen visually, where there were no checks or balances for the insight or ability of the inspector to observe and there was no responsibility to explain why something might be significant. While it is obiter and not necessary for my decision, I have not been satisfied that the standards as set out in the standard form documentation handed to the client actually set out standards of care for the industry at all. Rather they appear designed to immunize the inspectors from liability.

    [87] The consumer gains no reassurance from these standards. There are no teeth in the standards and, fundamentally, in the circumstance such as the one I have heard about, there was no meeting of the minds to form a contract.


  49. #49
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Good find, and interesting case. Although it appears as an opinion by one, I have found quite a number of other cases against home inspectors where the "Standard of Practice" was referenced and recognized as one of the grounds to establish what the inspector had a duty to perform. Perhaps it could set a precedence, but I doubt it based on even more recent case outcomes.

    Of course the other depends on what was established by the contract. It seems the focus could be placed on establishing a better and more consistent contract, since the specific limitations seem to also have an impact on what the judge rendered in the decision.

    One case in point, some cases limited liability to the cost of the inspection. Some judges upheld that decision, while others found fault. Another case found the home inspector at fault for pool conditions. Normally most home inspectors do not inspect pools. Recent posts on the ASHI forum seemed to provide evidence of such. Of course the SOP of ASHI makes it clear and equally so in most other home inspection SOPs.


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    From the CSA website: Committee members are designated as voting or non-voting (associate). Bill is listed as an associate, based on his prior background with "national standards".


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Doesn't matter whether he is voting or not. He should not be on any board, he is knowingly falsifying his credentials.

    Any other professional body would have shown him the door long ago.


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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Wow,it took me a long time,but I finally figured it out,we have the wrong people on the committees representing home inspectors
    With out naming names we should of course had RW,KW, and others who post on this site continusly representing us,they of course have all the answers .
    Not a day goes by with out their expertise,giving us all the needed info.
    Of course all those who have years of knowledge and experience,there opinions do not matter
    BM.of course should be excluded,be cause,he knows nothing
    Disband the existing members and let the experts run the show
    Problem solved,why has no one thought of this before,so simple.


  53. #53
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Janssen View Post
    Wow,it took me a long time,but I finally figured it out,we have the wrong people on the committees representing home inspectors.
    You got that right. First time you have anything of importance to say, but there is always a first for you.

    With out naming names we should of course had RW,KW, and others who post on this site continusly representing us,they of course have all the answers .
    Thats got to be the best line I have heard you say. Of course we know who you are talking about. Kevin Woods and Raymond Wand. And where do you get that silly notion that I am representing 'YOU', I am only here exposing what needs to be exposed. Can't speak for Kevin, he is on his own.

    Not a day goes by with out their expertise,giving us all the needed info.
    More info then you give anyone here, Nacho or on ASHI. But then again you have always been a great talker and man of no actions.


    Of course all those who have years of knowledge and experience,there opinions do not matter
    Your right their years of knowledge interlaced with lies, embellishments and misuse of titles they do not hold contrary to legislation which you are very familiar with since you are past president of OAHI. Too funny Harry. You of all people to come here and make statements that don't wash. But then again your attitude and lack of stamina and determination is exactly why under your watch a member absconded with $60k from OAHI of which you did nothing about, not even the police were called in. Why was that Harry? You never did explain that oversight or why the police were not called to the membership. Very suspicious to say the least. Bad oversight on your part, bad decisions on your part and sweep it under the rug has always been your preferred MO.

    BM.of course should be excluded,be cause,he knows nothing
    You've got that right. Thank you for the confirmation. We are familiar with the manner in which BM has made misrepresentations to members and the press and now by misuse of a protected trademark and provincial act of which you are familiar with. Strange how you brush over this very disturbing concern. But then I look back and see what happen with the $60k and I understand why you would over look the matter.

    I also think you are angry with me because I had to report you along with BM to OAHI and MCS on misuse of RHI which you continued to use even though you were no longer a member. Wow thats some record you have.


    Disband the existing members and let the experts run the show
    I vote you for the panel, you have a lot to add. Just as you have added to the discussion on the topic on Nacho, Inspection News and ASHI. Neary a word from you accept for this dribble.

    Problem solved,why has no one thought of this before,so simple.
    That's cause we are waiting for you to add something intelligent to the debate. Oh well never a disappointment with as you say 'so simple'. Yes it is simple from a simple person.

    Oh before I forget I guess I am not liked very much I have 121 likes on Inspection News. How many likes do you have Harry?

    Last edited by Raymond Wand; 12-01-2014 at 06:16 PM. Reason: internet down

  54. #54
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Nope! I would never accept this position. However I have seen enough from individuals in question.
    I also was well received by the original watchdog and will keep him aware of what goes on in Ontario.
    Kevin, its the Xmas season I think we should find it in our hearts to forgive Harry for his ignorance, he is very bitter. Sour grapes it sounds like.


  55. #55
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    Jul 2009
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    Brighton,Ontario,CANADA
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    You got that right. First time you have anything of importance to say, but there is always a first for you.


    Thats got to be the best line I have heard you say. Of course we know who you are talking about. Kevin Woods and Raymond Wand. And where do you get that silly notion that I am representing 'YOU', I am only here exposing what needs to be exposed. Can't speak for Kevin, he is on his own.


    More info then you give anyone here, Nacho or on ASHI. But then again you have always been a great talker and man of no actions.



    Your right their years of knowledge interlaced with lies, embellishments and misuse of titles they do not hold contrary to legislation which you are very familiar with since you are past president of OAHI. Too funny Harry. You of all people to come here and make statements that don't wash. But then again your attitude and lack of stamina and determination is exactly why under your watch a member absconded with $60k from OAHI of which you did nothing about, not even the police were called in. Why was that Harry? You never did explain that oversight or why the police were not called to the membership. Very suspicious to say the least. Bad oversight on your part, bad decisions on your part and sweep it under the rug has always been your preferred MO.



    You've got that right. Thank you for the confirmation. We are familiar with the manner in which BM has made misrepresentations to members and the press and now by misuse of a protected trademark and provincial act of which you are familiar with. Strange how you brush over this very disturbing concern. But then I look back and see what happen with the $60k and I understand why you would over look the matter.

    I also think you are angry with me because I had to report you along with BM to OAHI and MCS on misuse of RHI which you continued to use even though you were no longer a member. Wow thats some record you have.




    I vote you for the panel, you have a lot to add. Just as you have added to the discussion on the topic on Nacho, Inspection News and ASHI. Neary a word from you accept for this dribble.



    That's cause we are waiting for you to add something intelligent to the debate. Oh well never a disappointment with as you say 'so simple'. Yes it is simple from a simple person.

    Oh before I forget I guess I am not liked very much I have 121 likes on Inspection News. How many likes do you have Harry?
    Welcome back Harry glad t see you try to stay In touch .
    Please post some more of your ideas... Roy


  56. #56
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Sour grapes it sounds like.
    Sour grapes, huh?

    Isn't that what one makes sour whine from ... er ... I meant "whine" ... Dang! Did it again! ... I meant "whine" --- where to heck does that "h" in there keep coming from?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  57. #57
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Without mentioning any names ( I am still laughing ) the H comes from HJ.


  58. #58
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    I liked the Jon Eakes videos. MR Niceguy Housefixer.

    ( The Jon Eakes Show was percursor to the 'Big Mike Wrestles Drywall Show').
    (Psst .. they say Big Mike was discovered building stage props for the JE Show).

    Jon Eakes however is no home inspector AFAIK. And of course, he will insisit on the highest of high standards, like all appliances, pools and septic fields included in the cheapo inspection package. Why not?

    Last edited by John Kogel; 12-01-2014 at 08:12 PM. Reason: pertinent background info added
    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  59. #59
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    The problem is in my view is that there are people on the panel that are not home inspectors and its most likely they don't understand what a home inspection is or should be without taking into account the costs, the time, present standards, court rulings, the overly needless standards presented by CSA.

    On the other hand some of the home inspectors on the panel also have something to sell - courses.

    This was posted on the OAHI Face Book page by VP of Carson Dunlop.
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ontar...03366866398648

    Graham Clarke What a silly press release to put out. I'm not sure at all what they were attempting to accomplish. Their time would be better spent being a part of the development of the Standard through the review process. Not fear-mongering or grand-standing. Seriously - what was the point of this press release?
    In relation to this article
    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cost-...lkA1ZJUDU1NV8x

    I'm also concerned about the secrecy as to who is on the panel. CSA was not willing to release the names. I wonder why? But Graham Clarke (CD) is on the panel.

    *Members:G. Yates(Chair), R. Guinn(Vice-Chair), D. Aylward, D. Babott, M. Barnes, R. Brady, G. Clarke, J. Eakes, G.R. Genge, R. Hanberg, J.A. Huzar, R. Jobin, D. Kendall, G.R. Larin, L. Leyser, M. Lio, J. Londerville, S. Low, D. Mah, J. Mills, P. Sayne, K. Smith, B. Swan, J. Thomson, T. Welby-Solomon, M. Wellsch, J. Wright

    Associates: B.M. Collie, S. Hood, B. Mullen, J. Urquhart

    MCS - Members. Aylward, M. Barnes, D. Brezer, K.E. Hanson, S. Hood, J. Ko, G. MacKinnon-Peters, D. Murray, M. Wellsch, G. Yates, B. Greer, A. Nicholson, A. Skelton, C. Stewart, B. Valido*

    Follow the money, who is going to gain most with the CSA standards, certainly not home inspectors.

    I still believe there should be no business interests on the panel and its clear there is as far as home inspectors listed. (P2P and CD)

    Hey but what the hell do I know?


  60. #60
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Some Cdn. Nacho members complained to the Comp. Bureau about CSA. Had any of them read the Comp. Act, it succinctly spells out what triggers contravention of the Act, they would have realized their efforts were a big fat farce and waste of time.

    Duh!


  61. #61
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Yes Kevin, and we know contrary to Lisa claiming (try as she might) that Nacho is nothing but a marketing company. Paid spokesperson, she doesn't get paid to push the truth she gets paid to do as she is told.


  62. #62
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Here you go Kevin W - perhaps this will make your day!
    TV renovation personality Mike Holmes sued by former CEO | Calgary Herald


  63. #63
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    I understand the CSA Webinar was a bust.

    CSA seems to be going through the motions of being inclusive, but that appears to be anything but. It seems they operate in secrecy. They wouldn't even release the names of panel members. Why? It's far from a democratic process, and 'consensus based' seems to be used quite a bit, which I think is just a politically correct statement anyway.

    The draft should never have been released in the manner in which it was, and then put on our backs to correct (free of charge), what should have been done by CSA. No one knows at this point whether the feedback from inspectors will change what essentially has been presented in the draft. Perhaps CSA just goes through the motion to make one feel part of flawed process?

    The only option the way I see it for these folks at CSA and MCS to take note of anything is to stage a work to rule. I know, I know, many inspectors will say they cannot afford to refuse inspections because they have mouths to feed, mortgage payments, et ceteras. But at the end of the day when all this merde comes down the pipeline, these same people may be forced out of the biz (higher costs as a result of insurance, inspection fees, time spent at inspection, increased time to write a report, extremely higher risk, higher insurance rates, contractual changes, change of disclosure of limitations, report formats, courts will be setting new decisions based on new standards which is a big unkown)... due to lack of action(s); so can one not afford a work-to-rule campaign?

    We have lost control of our destinies all based on falsities perpetrated by government entities, and the wrong people on these panels, in my view.

    Maybe Mike H. should have been on the CSA panel. I don't think he would like these knew standards either. But then again who knows?


  64. #64
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    I replied to the CSA today regarding the draft Standard they presented for review.

    If you're bored and have a couple of days to read it, I've attached it for your viewing pleasure.

    Attached Files Attached Files

  65. #65
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    Default Re: CSA Standard on Home Inspection is now available for review

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Ashdown View Post
    I replied to the CSA today regarding the draft Standard they presented for review.

    If you're bored and have a couple of days to read it, I've attached it for your viewing pleasure.

    Well said I do hope all can see what needs to be done Thanks... Roy


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