Thread: The Case for Restoring CSA

A really good read on how CSA operates or doesn't.

Advocating for renewal, reform and recovery of the Canadian Standards Association.

The Canadian Standards Association (CSA) recently launched a lawsuit to eliminate its only competitor, P.S. Knight Co. As a regulatory entity however, CSA shouldn’t be competing commercially at all. In this affair and a host of others, CSA has been compromising the rule of law for commercial advantage and abusing its regulatory position for profit. CSA has financially exploited the electrical sector and has undermined its own authority and legitimacy in Canada and around the world. CSA should be returned to the rule of law and restored to its intended purpose.

RestoreCSA | CSA vs. P.S. Knight Co. Ltd.

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Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

A really good read on how CSA operates or doesn't.

Advocating for renewal, reform and recovery of the Canadian Standards Association.

The Canadian Standards Association (CSA) recently launched a lawsuit to eliminate its only competitor, P.S. Knight Co. As a regulatory entity however, CSA shouldn’t be competing commercially at all. In this affair and a host of others, CSA has been compromising the rule of law for commercial advantage and abusing its regulatory position for profit. CSA has financially exploited the electrical sector and has undermined its own authority and legitimacy in Canada and around the world. CSA should be returned to the rule of law and restored to its intended purpose.

RestoreCSA | CSA vs. P.S. Knight Co. Ltd.

And I thought this was about the Confederate States of America!

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

And I thought this was about the Confederate States of America!

Me too

Nope. Its the association that government entities are looking to to establish standards of practice for licencing purposes.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

And I thought this was about the Confederate States of America!

Nah ... they lost ...

He's talking about some other apparent CSA bullies.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Nope. Its the association that government entities are looking to to establish standards of practice for licencing purposes.

Thanks, Raymond and good luck with that.

I have always thought of the CSA as a Canadian version of UL and thus completely above the board and looking out for our safety. Peter Knight on the other hand is a private citizen who has been publishing wonderful electrical instruction books for about 40 years.

I agree, CSA should stick with governing and allow private corporations to carry on with their legitimate business ventures.

What it boils down to is CSA asserting what it assumes is its right to own public law. No one owns or can copyright acts of parliament. Copy right is owned by the crown. If CSA where to own it then the laws would all have to be re-written.

CSA is in the biz of making money. As such if licencing uses CSA for SOP then the public would as I understand it have to purchase the SOP's. They would no longer be free as current standards are.

There is currently a discussion taking place on the CSA Communities forum where some feel the Cdn Electrical Code should be made available free of charge for the public. I posted the Restore CSA website on the forum and it was removed within a day. Guess they didn't like me rocking the boat.

I have also been in contact with Mr. Knight and he had some interesting insights about CSA as far as home inspections go.

There are plenty of good SOP's already available. I don't see why the Ontario provincial govt wants to get CSA, a federal agency, involved, unless there is some monetary gain to be had. Maybe that's it. But now you're waiting for CSA to write an SOP for you?

The PS Knight books explain code rules with simple language and tons of illustrations. The books complement the CEC and ensure that more people understand the rules and comply with them, all good.

Apparently, there's a new CSA A770-xx draft as of July 2015.
Judging by the bits and pieces I've been able to pick up,
it doesn't see much better than the first draft that came out last fall.
I couldn't find it on CSA's website but I know they've done a series
of test inspections on the latest draft.
Has anyone seen it?
Does anyone know where you can get the new draft?

Steve,

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ewsletter.html

I have also posted on the CSA community asking if a version of the updated draft could be provided.

Been some time now but I remember you bringing this up awhile back Ray.
CSA asserting what they assume as their right to own public law.
Misconceived venture at best.

Ray, aren't there legal measures in place to curb their misguided agenda/appetite?
Or maybe my question should be, why aren't those measures being utilized?

Good morning Robert,

The Government of Ontario is warm to CSA's interest in becoming a new regulator in these areas because a licensing program will also increase government revenue and, bluntly, Ontario's government is looking more ways to access more revenue. This isn't going to stop until the CSA mandate is returned to its original purpose or, alternately, until the CSA's conduct is sufficiently exposed as to make govt. partnership with CSA politically unappealing.

Good morning to you as well Ray.
Hope all is well.

As for Ontario licensing and the CSA.
1: In the matter of A700, I have not been able to piece together and review all the material members have offered. I was busy with family matters.
Seeing conditions are much improved I am ready to take part moving forward with efforts I was committed to over a year ago.

A770; I heard it was water down significantly from the original draft, thank God!
I also heard it will be an ordinary SOP for the most part.

As for new revenues, if licensing and regulations do go through I highly doubt Kathleen Wynne will have much to brag about. just my opinion of course.

2. As for, the CSA being restored to its intended purpose, is there not enough will on the government's part or are they awaiting the outcome of the P.S. Knight litigation?

Any clarification would be welcome.

Hey Robert,

We will have to wait and see what transpires.

Like you others have expressed that the SOP have been watered down from the original. Likely the first draft was a trail balloon.

As to question 2, I am afraid I do not know, but doubt any litigation between CSA and Mr. Knight would hold up licencing.

Whether or not Min. of Consumer Serv. will use a CSA composed standard for licencing to my understanding, remains to be seen.

Maybe I could have been more clear about the government and lack of will or at least to be impartial to anything CSA is doing.
Sorry.


Ray, in the affair of the CSA compromising the rules of law for commercial advantage, and abusing regulatory position, would it not be in the interest of the government of Ontario to push the matter on what the CSA can and can not do in it's regulatory position, or am I being to naive on the matter?

Robert,
You are being naive.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Robert,
You are being naive.

I thought as much.
Thanks for the laugh.

RestoreCSA | The Issues

RestoreCSA | News | Sheila Copps Throws a Brick

... I note that Mr. Gordon Knight, of RestoreCSA.com, formally requested that your Department furnish responses to five questions relating to your Government’s relationship with the Canadian Standards Association (CSA). Your Department responded by stating that your colleagues at the CSA are suing Mr. Knight and, on this basis, it is not appropriate for you to answer his questions. ...

Makes me wonder if CSA is looking out after Canadians or whether CSA is interested in feathering its own nest, and playing GOD using taxpayers monies.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

RestoreCSA | The Issues

RestoreCSA | News | Sheila Copps Throws a Brick



Makes me wonder if CSA is looking out after Canadians or whether CSA is interested in feathering its own nest, and playing GOD using taxpayers monies.

If they are in-effect looking after Canadians best interests, then they must be subject to the national regulations to which it appears they are not.

Also, IMO The CSA A700 reporting standard is notwithstanding until everything becomes clear.

If the CSA Group is registered as a not-for-profit entity, so it claims to be governed, and not government depending on convenience the seated must look into this to cut ties under a not for profit entity.
As well as others.

(“CSA”) is an Agency of the Federal Government of Canada, founded by the British Empire in 1917 and subsequently granted a Canadian Federal Charter in 1919.
The purpose of CSA was “to coordinate the efforts of producers and others for the improvement and standardization of "engineering materials.” to which inspecting homes is not under SOP.

Since about 1990 the CSA has instead become an inefficient, expensive bureaucracy that is in practice more of a burden to the electrical sector than a service to it.

The CSA Group is registered as a not-for-profit entity, so it claims to be government and not government depending on convenience.

In 2013 the CSA runs a publications business, several product testing companies, has a wide range of corporate investments internationally, and has thirty-five offices around the world including two in the GTA alone, within 15 minutes drive of each other. It brings in $263MM dollars in annual revenue (in 2014), including ~$9MM in memberships alone (2010). That’s a lot of profit, for a not-for-profit and something should be done that makes the government realize the company requires the same rules that mandates not for profit.

Robert

I posted info on the CSA website forum about the lawsuit between CSA and P.S. Knight. Shortly after posting my post was removed. Now why do you suppose that was?

Ray, being new to this I can only presume the worst, out and out censorships.
Your posts are always well contrived, to the point, without malus, diligent and respectful to the subject and reader.

I am trying my best to get caught up on Canada's not for profit regulations and the rules that apply.
To use the word collusion is a strong stance that I will avoid but Canada's Standards Council of Canada seems to be under the microscope for this type of behaviour as well.

The Standards Council of Canada (SCC) is the regulatory body responsible for policing standards development organizations, including the most dominant of these, an Agency of Industry Canada called the Canadian Standards Association (CSA).

Sure sounds like collusion! When they start censoring freedom of information which is not part of national security then one comes to the wrong conclusions. And usually such conclusions lead one to think there is collusion and/or conflict of interest(s) at play.

David versus Goliath.

What's the old saying....be careful what we wish for?

Concerns stated in the past include that the CSA Home Inspection Standard "IF" approved by provincial legislation (regulation) can become the only recognized standard for the performance of a home inspection.

The push and financial support by several provinces to "harmonize" home inspection standards (particularly where licensing is mandated) was the real impetus behind the creation of the document. It was also my understanding that Ontario also provided financial support.

The other concern being the cost to purchase and use the "standard". How will the "consuming" public, regardless of the use, readily access it without paying a fee? I highly doubt it will be available for free, since most every other CSA standard has a fee associated with it.

Typically a large number of home inspectors include a copy of their "standards" being utilized as part of their home inspection report. So will CSA include for such re-use, or will it be on a pay for each use scenario?

No doubt there's cost recovery to consider. Still all of these questions are critical to each and every home inspector that will be impacted where it is mandated.

Any way it turns out Claude its going to cost us all money and will be a watershed event. And on that note ...

I am suspect that the government may in fact be reconsidering the whole licencing issue. After all it appears it will be presented as a private members bill. Possibly by MPP Mr. Shafiq Qaadri, Etobicoke? He's the back bencher who started this whole licencing thing.

http://shafiqqaadri.onmpp.ca/

Originally Posted by Claude Lawrenson

What's the old saying....be careful what we wish for?

The push and financial support by several provinces to "harmonize" home inspection standards (particularly where licensing is mandated) was the real impetus behind the creation of the document. It was also my understanding that Ontario also provided financial support.

Typically a large number of home inspectors include a copy of their "standards" being utilized as part of their home inspection report. So will CSA include for such re-use, or will it be on a pay for each use scenario?

No doubt there's cost recovery to consider. Still all of these questions are critical to each and every home inspector that will be impacted where it is mandated.

Good questions Claude but, unfortunately a buzz what was placed into the ear of the CSA years back has regrettable consequences for US ALL now if it goes through, omitting Quebec of course:-).

Lots of legs can get behind returning all the associations and contributing members due to the SOP they wrongfully used and have it put back to their rightful owners, if/when they push hard enough and insure the CSA returns back to their rightful position.

Gees Louise guys, lets make this wrong a right.

Why should we pay for 2 provinces failed attempts at meaningful considerations at regulations/licensing.
No need for licensing.
Regulations alone would exclude the part time or stay/moved at/back home moms collage under grade now homie from entering into the inspection business.

Pay to play through business regulations and insurance.
Associations can protect the consumer.