Thread: Licensing and Education and E&O

The main component in all of this mumbo jumbo, is the fact of paying through the teeth to enhance the associations and insurance companies. I am a certified Home Inspector. I attended St. Clair College in Mr. Hatfield's constituent of Windsor. I received my certificate. I have practiced in Essex/Kent Counties in Ontario, with almost 10 years qualified experience. I do not want to be regulated by some organization. I do not want periodic testing. I do not want someone following me through my inspections. I do not want someone pushing E&O down my throat. I do not want to pay annual dues to an organization, that gives me nothing in return. I do not want to change my reporting system (Horizon - Carson/Dunlop). I will follow SOP. My wife is a Paralegal and she has been paying though the ass for her lovely organization, and the lovely E&O she must be tied to. I want regulation...training....updates to code....I am tired of all the payments involved in my small business. Come to my world right now, advertising costs skyrocketing, Google reviews, bumping my online presence, web page updates, web provider server fees, report costs, tools, competitive pricing, and so on. Here comes the gov't and the associations tagging along with the insurance companies with their hands out. I have survived and my Clients have been extremely happy with my business for years. I pride myself on serving my Clients with thorough and respectful reporting. If all this comes to fruition, like it looks like it will, I may be forced to leave, with all of the extra costs. In closing, the associations are scared, the insurance companies are delighted, Ontario Home Inspectors (good people like you and I) are left standing at the side of the road. Respectfully, JB

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Nice vent.
But there are many in our biz who think licensing and regulation are good and advocate for it. In Colorado, the local ASHI chapter and InterNACHI supported licensing. (It failed) I expect that you'll get some blowback.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

Nice vent.
But there are many in our biz who think licensing and regulation are good and advocate for it. In Colorado, the local ASHI chapter and InterNACHI supported licensing. (It failed) I expect that you'll get some blowback.

Bring on the blow back, for Percy Hatfield to bring an agent to Parliament is a joke. Just what we need - Real Estate Agents getting involved in our livelihood....bring it on..

Originally Posted by John Binder

Bring on the blow back, for Percy Hatfield to bring an agent to Parliament is a joke. Just what we need - Real Estate Agents getting involved in our livelihood....bring it on..

Yes interesting indeed! John - remember we have been told this is all in the interest to protect consumers.

On the other hand like other "professions" it only takes a very small handful to ruin it for the rest. But we must also be concerned that just about any person can claim to be a home inspector. How can the consumer including realtors separate the good from the questionable ones?

Regarding the potential impact on your business - that scenario also initially held true in BC and Alberta, with a fair number folding up their business. However the numbers are back after a few years of adjustment.

This whole issue of licensing and regulating home inspectors in the province is really not new news. It just seems to keep resurfacing when "some" consumers claim that they have been duped by the inspector, and it cost them significant financial harm.

Originally Posted by Claude Lawrenson

Yes interesting indeed! John - remember we have been told this is all in the interest to protect consumers.

On the other hand like other "professions" it only takes a very small handful to ruin it for the rest. But we must also be concerned that just about any person can claim to be a home inspector. How can the consumer including realtors separate the good from the questionable ones?

Regarding the potential impact on your business - that scenario also initially held true in BC and Alberta, with a fair number folding up their business. However the numbers are back after a few years of adjustment.

This whole issue of licensing and regulating home inspectors in the province is really not new news. It just seems to keep resurfacing when "some" consumers claim that they have been duped by the inspector, and it cost them significant financial harm.

I understand Completely, I have been certified through our college, I read the code (minimum code), I stay on top with newsgroups, LEED (like it or not), Fine Home Building, new construction methods, etc...Keep the untrained out I agree, who doesn't? But why an association with crippling fees, with no support to us the Home Inspector...what will an association provide my small business with? E+O, I am E+O, I have squirreled away $ for possible litigation (none yet- knock on wood) All senseless monies, that I can use to put back into my business. Or God forbid support my Family.....

John,

Good vent! I can't say I disagree with your POV.

1. Take a look who sat on the CSA committee (interest wise). And on the MCS committee (interest wise)
2. Look how the licencing bill was introduced and the players.
3. CSA doesn't answer queries. Yet tax dollars went into development of A770.
4. This what happens when you have competing interests, politics, grandstanding and government interfering with private business.
5. This is what happens when you have associations issuing dubious titles which don't pass the smell test.
6. Facts that are presented as troublesome indicating there is a huge problem within the home inspection industry and consumer complaints. The facts have been altered to suit an agenda.
7. The real estate fraternity has thrown in its weight too.
8. Insurers will have a nice monopoly and insurance will become a warranty program funded by inspectors. Which leads me to ask and no one has asked. When licencing is enacted and one must be insured there will likely be the requirement for tail end coverage premiums for when you retire from the profession should you be sued from work carried out in previous years?
9. This profession has been sullied for years by many people. No one has collectively stood up and defended the industry. Bad press makes for good reading.
10. Insurers collect premiums and more often than not will settle out of court. Paint the inspector a bad risk, up rates, or cancel the policy. Like I said its turned into a warranty program funded by us.
11. Insurers never come clean with their stats. Try and get that info from them! Good luck.

Okay it was suppose to be a top ten list but I went over.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

John,

Good vent! I can't say I disagree with your POV.

1. Take a look who sat on the CSA committee (interest wise). And on the MCS committee (interest wise)
2. Look how the licencing bill was introduced and the players.
3. CSA doesn't answer queries. Yet tax dollars went into development of A770.
4. This what happens when you have competing interests, politics, grandstanding and government interfering with private business.
5. This is what happens when you have associations issuing dubious titles which don't pass the smell test.
6. Facts that are presented as troublesome indicating there is a huge problem within the home inspection industry and consumer complaints. The facts have been altered to suit an agenda.
7. The real estate fraternity has thrown in its weight too.
8. Insurers will have a nice monopoly and insurance will become a warranty program funded by inspectors. Which leads me to ask and no one has asked. When licencing is enacted and one must be insured there will likely be the requirement for tail end coverage premiums for when you retire from the profession should you be sued from work carried out in previous years?
9. This profession has been sullied for years by many people. No one has collectively stood up and defended the industry. Bad press makes for good reading.
10. Insurers collect premiums and more often than not will settle out of court. Paint the inspector a bad risk, up rates, or cancel the policy. Like I said its turned into a warranty program funded by us.
11. Insurers never come clean with their stats. Try and get that info from them! Good luck.

Okay it was suppose to be a top ten list but I went over.

***We (The good thorough Home Inspector) need representation! This is going to get shoved down our throats in Parliament..I just wrote an email to our sister constituent to my area, Windsor/Tecumseh MP Percy Hatfield..always having associations, insurance companies, and real estate agents as a representation of Home Inspectors? Where is our representation? Where? JB

The government listens to those who most likely have never been out on an inspection.
Does anyone think that the good folks at CSA actually went out on several inspections to know what we actually do? Or those at MCS, or insurers who were on the panel have gone out on inspections?

Then there's that questionable quote from official statements, "inconsistencies" in the standards. Poppy Cock!

I know when North Dakota was looking at registering HI's there were only tow HI's who testified in favor of it, yours truly was 50% of them. All the others said having E&O would cause more lawsuits and the costs would drive them out of business. Neither seems to have been the case. I have been sued twice over the last 15 years and each cost in excess of $20,000 to defend. We won both case. Without E&O we would have been forced into bankruptcy without a doubt even though we won. Just as important, if we had not been insured, and were actually in the wrong our clients would have been not able to be made whole again.

- - - Updated - - -

I know when North Dakota was looking at registering HI's there were only tow HI's who testified in favor of it, yours truly was 50% of them. All the others said having E&O would cause more lawsuits and the costs would drive them out of business. Neither seems to have been the case. I have been sued twice over the last 15 years and each cost in excess of $20,000 to defend. We won both case. Without E&O we would have been forced into bankruptcy without a doubt even though we won. Just as important, if we had not been insured, and were actually in the wrong our clients would have been not able to be made whole again.

Thanks for the feedback Marshall. We will have to see what transpires up here when licencing transpires.

Just for clarification - (1) I was not aware that completing a home inspection program "certifies" an individual as a "certified" home inspector. I can appreciate the effort to complete most any program that provides the required background education to become a home inspector.

(2) I find that there seems to be a common misconception of the difference between "certification" versus a certificate program. Here's a prime example that explains the difference -http://www.credentialingexcellence.org/p/cm/ld/fid=4

From the link page - "One program type is not more or less rigorous than another. They simply serve different purposes and may require different business approaches, governance structures, development processes, etc."

(3) “The certification body shall not offer or provide training, or aid others in the preparation of such services, unless it demonstrates how training is independent of the evaluation and certification of persons to ensure that confidentiality and impartiality are not compromised.” Source -PCBAP: Criteria, Procedures and Conditions for Accreditation and Accredited Personnel Certification Bodies CAN-P-9 (ISO 17024)

They simply serve different purposes and may require different business approaches, governance structures, development processes, etc."

Ain't that the truth!

(3) “The certification body shall not offer or provide training, or aid others in the preparation of such services, unless it demonstrates how training is independent of the evaluation and certification of persons to ensure that confidentiality and impartiality are not compromised.” Source -PCBAP: Criteria, Procedures and Conditions for Accreditation and Accredited Personnel Certification Bodies CAN-P-9 (ISO 17024)

Here's one for ya.

Certified by North America’s Number One Home Inspector Training Association (Association Name)

Originally Posted by Marshall Brown

I know when North Dakota was looking at registering HI's there were only tow HI's who testified in favor of it, yours truly was 50% of them. All the others said having E&O would cause more lawsuits and the costs would drive them out of business. Neither seems to have been the case. I have been sued twice over the last 15 years and each cost in excess of $20,000 to defend. We won both case. Without E&O we would have been forced into bankruptcy without a doubt even though we won. Just as important, if we had not been insured, and were actually in the wrong our clients would have been not able to be made whole again.

- - - Updated - - -

I know when North Dakota was looking at registering HI's there were only tow HI's who testified in favor of it, yours truly was 50% of them. All the others said having E&O would cause more lawsuits and the costs would drive them out of business. Neither seems to have been the case. I have been sued twice over the last 15 years and each cost in excess of $20,000 to defend. We won both case. Without E&O we would have been forced into bankruptcy without a doubt even though we won. Just as important, if we had not been insured, and were actually in the wrong our clients would have been not able to be made whole again.

Marshall, So your saying with E&O and it still cost you 20K ? really? are you an LLC

Ho no! I see a "Save me from my competitor" thread following.
Gees Louise, here we go again.
No wonder it was so easy to get government ministers and the CSA involved.

Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG

Ray, Bee in your bonnet.

I have mentored CD certified home inspectors, and many others.
I see no differance.

As to NACHI,
Governments recognise their training, Ray.

You are missing the point, Robert - they want separation between the 'certifying agency', the 'training agency', and the 'testing agency' - true separation.

An exception would be for something like a true 'code making body', such as ICC, where the codes are consensus codes and not created 'wholly by the certification agency' (such as may be the case with ASHI, InterNACHI, etc, where such 'certifications' would be meaningless) ... calling oneself a 'certified member' of the 'certifying association' ... sure - no problem, but that does not make one a "Certified (blah, blah)".

Jerry, although I hold you in the highest regards, I beg to differ.
It's another way to cull the heard & "Save me from my many competitors"

Licensing has worked pretty well in many of the States that enacted "good" licensing with educational, testing and insurance requirements. I have worked under a HI license since 2001 and I'm very thankful for the two I have worked under.

I look at it differently than most. I don't look at a HI license as "Public Protection", quite the opposite. I look at the license as a form of protection for me, the home inspector. Now some public protection comes from the license process but I feel it protects the inspector more.

Most if not all who have worked under a license will agree, that the license actually helped to increase the professionalism of those putting themselves out as home inspectors. Now a process (like it or not) is in place to help insure that an individual has the capability to conduct an inspection to a set standard. Now, it does not guarantee that the inspection will be any good but a good law should also provide forms of penalties and an avenue for the consumer to complain when that inspection does not meet the prescribed SOP.

IMVHO, the mess in Canada has been caused by folks trying to reinvent the "wheel" so to speak and with personal hidden agendas.

From what I have seen Canada did not want to look South to the States where we have had licensing in effect since the 1990's in a few states and the remaining 30 or so licensed states since the early to mid 2000's.

Anyway, you have a mess in Canada like it or not! It is time to band together as a profession and not individuals if it is possible to enact something that all can live with. What works on one side of the country will most likely not work on the other, just like in the States but this does not mean you can look South to see what has worked and copy the better ideas and laws for your country.

Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG

I beg to differ.

It's another way to cull the heard & "Save me from my many competitors"

Proper "certification" has nothing to do wit "cull the heard"... unless you are saying:
- proper "certification" means culling out those from the herd who are unqualified
- and
- that 'false certification' allows the unqualified to remain in the herd and roam the streets, taking advantage of the unsuspecting public by presenting such 'false certification' as being meaningful and indicative of being qualified

If the above is the case, then, yes, real certification does cull the herd of those who are unqualified. ...

... and you are saying that is a 'bad thing'?

If you are, then you must also be saying that letting the full herd, qualified or not, run amuck is a good thing?

You need to be less cryptic in your posts - I've noticed many of your posts are cryptic and that the reader is supposed to figure out what you mean ... we had another Quebecer who did the same thing ... maybe it's the language difference which causes that?

I agree with what Scott posted except for this part:

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

IMVHO, the mess in Canada has been caused by folks trying to reinvent the "wheel" so to speak and with personal hidden agendas.

I don't see any "hidden agendas" ... they're all out in the open and clearly visible ... albeit the intent was that they were "hidden agendas".

Jerry said;

I don't see any "hidden agendas" ... they're all out in the open and clearly visible ... albeit the intent was that they were "hidden agendas".

Ah yes... when you scratch below the surface you will see the hidden agendas. Realtors, lawyers, consumer advocates, associations...business interests, I am better than you... Yup nothing like that going on up here we are all too polite and wouldn't say merde even with a mouth full it.

Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG

IMO, Povincial governmental services should regulate / mandating home inspection businesses E&O, employ worker CSST, Vehicle signage, Bussinesses LLC or INC.,for all home inspection business workers?
The you have to pay to play.

Sooo ... that is your way to "cull the herd" ... instead by actually having proper certification to make sure the inspectors know what they are doing?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Sooo ... that is your way to "cull the herd" ... instead by actually having proper certification to make sure the inspectors know what they are doing?

Proper certification?
That is the drumbeat of, save me from my competitors.
1: AT ARMS LEIGHT approach.
2: Removing conflicted interests.
3: All proctored exams.
4: All REA expose what company did the inspection at the end of every year.
5: Consumer responsibility.

Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG

Proper certification?
That is the drumbeat of, [I]save me from my competitors

You are so in lock step with your leader that you apparently cannot grasp what is being said by others ... you are so wrong.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

You are so in lock step with your leader

Jerry, thank you for the compliment!
1: Jerry, please believe me when I say this, my leader is Jesus Crist / Our Father.
2: I am a civic citizen.
3: I do make mistakes.
4: I do not have all the answers.

Now, if you are/were referring to Nick Gromicko founder of InterNACHI, although some may agree while others not, he has earned the right to be in a position he is in.

I watched and meet provincial colleges as they mercilessly used others efforts and ideas, to do anything to drive THIER LICENSING AGENDA behind closed doors.

Bravo Ontario! That is a discussion.
An excerpt from a moment in time. Not verbatim but close.
"Not everyone of you will like everything so just shut-up because everyone is going to have to dealwith it.
That generous announcement by the leader to the uninvited followers.
Too bad.
So sad.
I like leaders that use the term us.

As for governments;
I have been vetted 4 times that I know of as a businessman by all government agencies, including criminal, needless each time, while being intellectually insulted, needlessly lied to and kept in the dark throughout while being told lies or untruths and held harmless at the end of each one because I follow my leaders message.
Jerry, I am sure governments and their aligned interested l& lobbying parties are smarter than I while keeping me safe and healthy.
fox and hens.JPG

So if consumer protection is truly the agenda, behind the witch hunt, during a real estate transaction, I would start to take a real hard look who has the most and longest impact on real estate consumers and hold them fully accountable for ALL THEIR ACTIONS.

In my province, there are legends of referred under the table service providers including builders and they affect our economy in every way during home ownership. Now that's a long time, Jerry.
Hmmm.
So please stop it with raising the bar for one while allowing the licensed and regulated other to dismantle our civic society, please.

Just look south of our border and see how real estate almost bankrupt the world.
Give me a break!

Originally Posted by John Binder

The main component in all of this mumbo jumbo, is the fact of paying through the teeth to enhance the associations and insurance companies. I am a certified Home Inspector. I attended St. Clair College in Mr. Hatfield's constituent of Windsor. I received my certificate. I have practiced in Essex/Kent Counties in Ontario, with almost 10 years qualified experience. I do not want to be regulated by some organization. I do not want periodic testing. I do not want someone following me through my inspections. I do not want someone pushing E&O down my throat. I do not want to pay annual dues to an organization, that gives me nothing in return. I do not want to change my reporting system (Horizon - Carson/Dunlop). I will follow SOP. My wife is a Paralegal and she has been paying though the ass for her lovely organization, and the lovely E&O she must be tied to. I want regulation...training....updates to code....I am tired of all the payments involved in my small business. Come to my world right now, advertising costs skyrocketing, Google reviews, bumping my online presence, web page updates, web provider server fees, report costs, tools, competitive pricing, and so on. Here comes the gov't and the associations tagging along with the insurance companies with their hands out. I have survived and my Clients have been extremely happy with my business for years. I pride myself on serving my Clients with thorough and respectful reporting. If all this comes to fruition, like it looks like it will, I may be forced to leave, with all of the extra costs. In closing, the associations are scared, the insurance companies are delighted, Ontario Home Inspectors (good people like you and I) are left standing at the side of the road. Respectfully, JB

Please, I was a builder and friends businesses pay what you earn yearly to run a business.
Cry me a river. boo·hoo
Ever think of charging more?

Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG

Please, I was a builder and friends businesses pay what you earn yearly to run a business.
Cry me a river. boo·hoo
Ever think of charging more?

Yes, and with the price gouging locals you will likely end up on the short end of the stick. As long as there are H.I's that charge below the going rate there will always be a problem. Now couple that with realtors that expect that they have the right to choose which ever H.I. they seem to feel works best for them, than you have a recipe for not just low prices, but also control of who gets the inspection and at what the price.

Now lets toss in the group that gets certified by the path of least resistance. Not to forget about proctored exams and actual peer review and practical field testing. The real benchmarks!

Certification has become a term with not just variable means of certifying an individual. In my professional view there's only one certification process that has been vetted by a nationally recognized independent third party "accreditation" entity and that is ASHI by ICE (Institute of Credentialing Excellence) in the US.

So where's the "real" consumer protection?

As they say other than through licensing "anyone can call themselves a home inspector". Even with licensing it's still not a perfect model really protecting consumers.

Now, if you are/were referring to Nick Gromicko founder of InterNACHI, although some may agree while others not, he has earned the right to be in a position he is in.

He is the owner of a privately held company. No share capital by members, no voting rights, no policy, no discipline, marketing titles, false certifications. Its all about titles, which under close scrutiny do not meet nor pass the muster. Some pay dearly for titles others get them free, no audit and no scrutiny.

Why wouldn't he take a real interest in prospering his company?

I have known Nick since he got a threshold in Canada, starting with Ontario where I and Roy Cooke helped him set up his first meeting. Over the years I realized just what sort of non professional association he runs.

This is exactly why Ontario finds it necessary to licence because the consumer is not protected by Nachi or its affiliates. How could they be protected when you don't have a full and impartial, professionally acting discipline committee, nor much of anything else thats professional? Sure the education offerings are great, but that is where it stops.

Come on folks stop with the platitudes of professionalism and a professionally acting association!

Claude, Ray, Jerry, you are all good sports and thank you for putting up with my Tomfoolery.

John, Licensing seems to be skewed for the moment.
Education is in place.
E&O should be a prerequisite for home inspection businesses. It provides Consumer protection.

Best to you and your endeavors.

Good morning, speaking of price gouging locals. Well not quite price gouging ....

best home inspection

And the Kijiji ad -
Certified Home Inspector with 5 years Experience, from $124.99 | real estate services | Barrie | Kijiji

1. Look at the area he covers.
2. Professional Home Inspection from only $124.99 with free Thermal Imaging
3. For someone who has an MBA you would think he would know about pricing.
4. Govt. Certified Home inspector | Certified Electrician | M.B.A ??? Priceless!

I guess the Quickie Mart didn't work out.

Yup and a special thanks to this inspector for making licencing possible!

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Good morning, speaking of price gouging locals. Well not quite price gouging ....

best home inspection

And the Kijiji ad -
Certified Home Inspector with 5 years Experience, from $124.99 | real estate services | Barrie | Kijiji

1. Look at the area he covers.
2. Professional Home Inspection from only $124.99 with free Thermal Imaging
3. For someone who has an MBA you would think he would know about pricing.
4. Govt. Certified Home inspector | Certified Electrician | M.B.A ??? Priceless!

I guess the Quickie Mart didn't work out.

Yup and a special thanks to this inspector for making licencing possible!

WOW.....even claims to be a "Govt. Certified Home inspector | Certified Electrician | M.B.A ." Plus all those other "free" goodies in the inspection package. As more enter the field the less things change......

I could never understand why some inspectors cover such wide service areas. That tells me they can't survive in their local area so they have to encompass larger areas. And if your price is low and you are willing to travel those distances, what does that impart?

Raymond and Claude, I am sure you can find questionable business related marketing services on sites such as the one you exposed.
Gentlemen, just be thankful you know better and stop picking out the unfortunate.
I am certain your mothers brought you up better than that.

Let's get back to the thread, Licensing and Education and E&O.

E&O: I am for E&O + GL .
The real form of consumer protection offered by home inspection businesses.

Education.
Would you agree there are >< 32 home inspection associations certifying home inspectors in North Amerca.
Combine that number with college and other certificate providers.
Tests can be online, proctored and even in person during a mock or actual home inspection.
Then there is the NHCC. The CMI board. Now a CSA SOP.

There is free choice.

Claude money travels in the path of least resistance.
Ray, gouging comes in all forms.

Let me elaborate a bit further, I just started mentoring a CD certified inspector.
I am sure he/she was nervous but I expected questions combined with the correct narratives exposing what we both were observing.
CD exposes this to it's students.
He/she is also a 7 year practicing architect from a recognised school and company.

Do we have a consensus there is free choice and all are running legal businesses?
I am certain we do and will counter and have been doing so..."save me from my competitor."

Legal precedent set in Canada 2009. Salgado v. Toth.
The case went to the supreme court of Canada.
The plaintiff was awarded while the defendant, a CAHPI inspector, made to pay restitution in the sum of $200,000.00
I see the engineering firms did not hesitate to charge the lions share in this case.

The judge made recommendations, was licensing one of them?

Consumer protection starts with the consumer and ends with the business.

Question: If plaintiffs had a quicker resolution to such cases, would that work?
If so, do you think they would take heed or choose the lowest rate knowing they could litigate afterwards?

I do not have all the answers but I would like to see other avenues taken.
Licensing is heavy handed fast resort to pacify those listening to media and gain respect among the constituents.

Provincial governments have to modernise the service industry regulations to fit today's consumer needs and stop taxing us to death because poor provincial regulations management.
The bloody system is antiquated and those well-paid government employees have no real incentive to modernize by thinking freely in situations like this.
Too bad.
So sad.

Your thoughts other than licensing?

Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG

Raymond and Claude, I am sure you can find questionable business related marketing services on sites such as the one you exposed.
Gentlemen, just be thankful you know better and stop picking out the unfortunate.
I am certain your mothers brought you up better than that.

My mothers rearing me has nothing to do with picking out this inspector. He is not unfortunate but most likely ignorant and misrepresenting facts. Not my fault nor Claudes but a person who claims to be educated! (MBA)

Education.
Would you agree there are >< 32 home inspection associations certifying home inspectors in North Amerca.
Combine that number with college and other certificate providers.
Tests can be online, proctored and even in person during a mock or actual home inspection.
Then there is the NHCC. The CMI board. Now a CSA SOP.

How can you compare NHICC to CMI? CMI is a privately held entity, while NHICC is member driven and not held privately by a sole person.

There is free choice.

Absolutely but one must decide to pay the price of authenticity or go with the path of least resistance as to qualification verification. Then there is that resurfacing problem of credentials being given away, something none of the other bodies would dare dream of doing.

Claude money travels in the path of least resistance.
Ray, gouging comes in all forms.

But we are not talking about gouging, we are referring to idiots who charge well below the market price, then make claims they are certified when they are not because their governing body does not certify, only ASHI does and therein lies the difference. Legally very significant.

Do we have a consensus there is free choice and all are running legal businesses?
I am certain we do and will counter and have been doing so..."save me from my competitor."

It better be legal, but going back to the low baller, is that legal to state what we all know is false? That is to state one is licenced and certified when they are not? This choice of words is what got us to this point of licencing, because some just can't bare to state facts and the truth.

Legal precedent set in Canada 2009. Salgado v. Toth.
The case went to the supreme court of Canada.
The plaintiff was awarded while the defendant, a CAHPI inspector, made to pay restitution in the sum of $200,000.00
I see the engineering firms did not hesitate to charge the lions share in this case.

Correction, Salgado v. Toth was never appealed and if it was it would have been in the appelate court of British Columbia.

The judge made recommendations, was licensing one of them?

Nope.

Consumer protection starts with the consumer and ends with the business.

Agreed but if the business is deceptive in advertising then the first part of your sentence is not consumer protecting themselves. That is why there are advertising regulations and advertising standards in many businesses and voluntary in some cases. But this is one areas that needs regulation so that you don't have marketing bending facts to suit a business interest and their success in my view.

Question: If plaintiffs had a quicker resolution to such cases, would that work?
If so, do you think they would take heed or choose the lowest rate knowing they could litigate afterwards?

Well they could try arbitration, but that is not what its cracked up to be. I would rather take my chance in the court room where there are rules of evidence, and right of appeal for instance.

I do not have all the answers but I would like to see other avenues taken.
Licensing is heavy handed fast resort to pacify those listening to media and gain respect among the constituents.

Yup Polly Anna... look the sky is falling. Further lets not forget as I and others demonstrated the government here and its cohorts distorted facts to suit their agenda and big brother know it all mentality. Lies, lies, lies, all by politicians who are quite good at spinning facts. Thats the real shame! Then to be backed up by big business (Real estate fraternity) who have their agenda, and whose members (some) try to manipulate the findings of home inspectors.

Provincial governments have to modernise the service industry regulations to fit today's consumer needs and stop taxing us to death because poor provincial regulations management.

Yup; full agreement.

The bloody system is antiquated and those well-paid government employees have no real incentive to modernize by thinking freely in situations like this.

Yes think outside the box is lost on civil servants at great cost and waste.

Your thoughts other than licensing?

The box has been open. The time in which associations could have acted has passed. They could have taken steps to improve the discipline process some of whom have none (its only on paper for marketing purposes), and they could have and should have done a much better job on correcting all the negative press over the years everything to door knob checkers to a bunch of cowboys!

Hey but what do I know and what difference does it now make? Nada! Now that Kathleen and her merry men of thievery have put their touch on the matter... well need I say more?

I thought I was passionate, ha ha ha.

Ray, be thankful you are not him and our father granted you the knowledge to know the difference.

As for consumers, I have reported bulldozer ready homes and plenty of others with Major Defects and the consumers purchase them.
Go figure!

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

The time in which associations could have acted has passed. They could have taken steps to improve the discipline process some of whom have none (its only on paper for marketing purposes), and they could have and should have done a much better job on correcting all the negative press over the years everything to door knob checkers to a bunch of cowboys!

I keep hearing the word discipline meaning someone has authority.
Marketing????
The governments and consumer affairs are free to file charges of phoney advertising.
Bad press, like "SAVE ME FROM THE COMPANION?" NACHI Our membership is plummeting. ha ha ha

Funny Vern turned it all around with 13 members in Alberta as they still screamed, "save me from the competition."

Didn't the NHICC go looking for a green light from the CSA for the national standard?
Save me and consumers from the competition!!!!

What Canadian home inspection association of associations members made headlines and set precedents across Canada?

Ray, you have it all wrong.
Money flows in the direction of least resistance.
Do a good job and be a successful marketer and don't worry about the consumers so much. They have REA's to mentor them during the sale.

Robert how would you know a good home inspection association from a bad if you never belonged to any other than Nachi?

No the government is not responsible for phoney advertising since every association should be proactive via the COE, and policy. Just as P. Eng societies police themselves. Any why would you oblige the government to enforce advertising rules when the whole concept is to stop government interfering in a profession of which the facts indicate the complaints are very low? The nanny state wiping backsides for appearance purposes and popularity reasons.

If NHICC went looking to CSA for a green light, what is the problem with that. So did OAHI? Do you really think the government thought Nachi and its affiliates had the qualifications that would be utilized? Of course not. Further the whole purpose of the MCS panel was to seek consensus. Inclusion, with the exclusion of all associations and a new improved SOP. Since we are waiting for committee feedback and third reading we will see whose SOP will or will not be used.

What Canadian home inspection association of associations members made headlines and set precedents across Canada?

All of them! It was not a love fest.

I don't have anything wrong. My job is to guide my clients to the best of my ability. Their interest are first and foremost, that is one reason I do not solicit realtors. If you are suggesting you are not concerned about your client (consumer) I am surprised. I am sure you do not ignore your clients since its your bread and butter. But then again maybe you solicit agents to gain work?

Experience has taught me ( I had my realestate licence) that I cannot trust agents to look after their client with proper accurate info and their fudiciary duties. Agents telling clients they don't need water testing, agents ripping out asbestos sheets in front of clients, agents telling them basement apartments is legal when they are not, agents failing to tell their clients of material facts that would affect their purchase decision, telling clients to pass on a home inspection, multiple offers with no conditions (this only benefits the home owner and particularly the agent since their commission with be a win fall for little or no work on behalf of client. blah, blah, blah.

Yup its a wild west show out there and I carry the day. My clients provide me with feedback and are very pleased. I know where my work comes from and I sleep very well at night knowing that and knowing that I don't need no stinking online marketing company to save my arse because I am a professional with a professional pedigree!

NOTE - "If NHICC went looking to CSA for a green light, what is the problem with that. So did OAHI?"

For clarification - The NHICC never approached CSA. The NHICC met with the CSA in Toronto only after they approached us to discuss a scheme to utilize a National Certification Program.

As we know all "HE...double hockey sticks" broke out after a promo piece hit the media.

So at best the "IF" never happened.

Perhaps CSA had bigger plans, yet to be unveiled.

Claude,

Is this the piece?
http://www.home-inspectors.com/Sun_Media_Article.pdf

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Claude,

Is this the piece?
http://www.home-inspectors.com/Sun_Media_Article.pdf

Raymond, Thank you and YES!

The key point stated was - "The CSA has quietly monitored the development of the NHICC certification model for many months. For multiple reasons, the National Certification Program model, administered by the NHICC, has now been chosen as the benchmark for home inspectors in Canada."

And there was more to be unfolded. Of course, as we know now....the campaign against this initiative soon caused CSA to pull the plug.

Now if you do a little more research, you will also find there's much more to CSA, other than setting "standards". Something that could potentially cause association based certification to be a thing of the past.