Thread: Fight the good fight

I have decided to post this message across as many Inspection sites as possible due to the seriousness of this issue. There have been many posts concerning this issue and it has brought up a great deal of controversial opinions from both sides. (Realtors and Inspectors). The fact that there are so many different opinions concerning this matter should only illustrate how big of a problem this really is. There are a select few of us who have been trying to convey this message to everyone and help them all understand the importance of this issue. What I am speaking of is the Inherit conflict of Interest between Realtors and Home Inspectors.

Here is a link to an article of a new law trying to get passed in Kansas. I will post it here for those of you who have not seen it.

http://cjonline.com/stories/031008/opi_255434546.shtml

It appears that the Realtors there are actually trying to take control over the inspection Industry legally, and I think it is time we all stand up and try and do something about it.

I have already sent out this letter to my 3 state representatives, 2 congressmen, the Mayor and the Governor of the state of Indiana. I URGE anyone and everyone out there who feels the same way to do the same. It only takes a few minutes of time to do so. All you need to do is Yahoo or Google " State representative and your state" It took me a total of 15 minutes to type this up and copy and paste to my representatives.

This is our bread and butter people, and we need to stand up and do something about the injustice in this industry, before we are on the wrong end of the stick. If we all just sit around and do nothing about this, we will have no one else to blame but ourselves.

Please feel free to copy and paste my letter to your state representative.

"Mr Steve Buyer,

I am writing to you to express my concern over the conflict of interest that exists between real estate agents and home inspectors. I would like to see some kind of law entered in Indiana that would prohibit real estate agents/brokers from being able to recommend home inspectors to their clients.

The reason being is that agents have a vested interest in the sale of a property. The current norm is they hand out a list of 3 recommended home inspectors to their clients. Not in all cases, but in MANY, the inspectors on that list have either paid money to be on the list, or they are known as being "soft" so that the sale of the property goes through, the agents get their commissions, and the home inspector gets to remain on the list. Either way it is a serious code of ethics violation on both parties.

There is, in my opinion a great conflict of interest with the way the current system is. The biggest problem is that the real estate agents already act as if they own the inspection industry and now they are even trying to pass a law in Kansas #HB2315 that would give THEM certain control over the inspection industry. That is wrong. A home inspector's duty is to act as an independent, unbiased and objective third party and provide pertinent information to his/her client (usually the buyer) during a real estate transaction.

Being an independent home inspector myself, this is an issue of great concern for me and my family. Anything you could do to bring this to the forefront would greatly be appreciated by both me as well as my peers that share the same belief.

Thank you for your time.

Mike Chamberlain
MC2 Home Inspections
317-605-3432

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Mike,

Good luck with your quest, but you will get no support from the hard-line home inspector licensing jackboots who control the discussions on this website. As long as a state adopts home inspector licensing those who post here will wholeheartedly support it irregardless of who controls our profession, even realtors.

I suggest you not get in the way of those who are committed to sacrificing everything on the alter of licensing legislation, at this point you have only received the traditional "cold shoulder" who knows what could happen should you decide to push your agenda with an idea which could overturn the applecart of progressive licensing legislation for home inspectors, all I can say is it won't be pretty.

Joe.

I support licencing 100%!

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

Mike,

Good luck with your quest, but you will get no support from the hard-line home inspector licensing jackboots who control the discussions on this website. As long as a state adopts home inspector licensing those who post here will wholeheartedly support it irregardless of who controls our profession, even realtors.

I suggest you not get in the way of those who are committed to sacrificing everything on the alter of licensing legislation, at this point you have only received the traditional "cold shoulder" who knows what could happen should you decide to push your agenda with an idea which could overturn the applecart of progressive licensing legislation for home inspectors, all I can say is it won't be pretty.

Joe.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

I support licensing 100%!

Ouch Joe,

Have not heard from you in a while, hope all is Well.

Can't understand all the hoopala over you persons being upset that you might have to carry a license.
Every professional occupation out there requires some type of licensing.
Without a license every Joe Blow out there would think they could do just about anything. Can you imagine going to a Physician and finding out they have no license? They thought all that school was not necessary to be able to rip your chest open and work on your heart. You'd jump your ass right up and head out the door if you found out they had no license or a diploma.

Why do HI's think they are any different?

Licensing is set up not only for the state to pick up 75. dollars to print your license up, but it is a way of protecting the general public against someone who claims they can perform a job that maybe they are not qualified to do.

With Licensing comes rules that you have to abide by. If you can't handle rules then why should I as a person seeking someone to handle something as a HI think your going to do your job anyway.

We know that if you screw up and your licensed, you have the possibility of having your liccensed revoked and your more than likely going to do what is expected of you.

MaMa Mount

Do you really trust your association to manage its affairs and that of the members in a diligent, qualified ethical manner? Do you expect your association to have published bylaws and policies to which you can refer? Do you expect your self regulating body to manage your membership dues in a prudent and fiscal manner? Do you know for a fact that your association is acting ethically and honestly on your behalf? Does your self oversight, self regulating association hold fair and open elections? Are decisions made honestly and openly without undue influence and conflicts of interest?

For the nay sayers: Please show me a trade where state licensing improved its practitioners?
Keep up the fight Mike as the real losers will be the home buyers and they’re the ones I’d try to educate.

"Do you know for a fact that your association is acting ethically and honestly on your behalf?"

This is what it all comes down to with some of you is the "organization" BS.

Would I trust you with that attitude to watch out for me? No a snowballs chance in hell!

MaMa Mount

Mr. Jerry,

Ask your doctor the next time your in about the blood pressure if he thinks licensing is a bad thing and if it keeps his fellow practioners in line.

MaMa Mount

Gee MaMA, I wasn't aware that if one had a license they where qualified to perform whatever that license was for without a misstep?
Perhaps if you lived a little longer you would have the wisdom to know that even doctors screw up, but who would know as their mistakes are buried?

I have said it many times before. I have worked under a home inspector license since 2001, I hold a HI license in two states and getting ready to be licensed in a third state. I have yet to see or have a problem with a HI license. All you have to do is meet the requirements and go on with life. Folks fuss about the fees and such, but those are just another tax deduction.

Most of those who are against licensing have never worked under a license before. It is the fear of the unknown and the tails of woe that they keep hearing from the naysayers that keep them all in a dither.

It really is not all that bad, and it does tend to cull pool of folks working at it as a hobby.

It looks like the newest state will be Washington. The bill is sitting on the governors desk as we debate this thread. Next will most likely be GA. MD will start to enforce and require testing in the next few months. Now' what's that phrase, "Resistance is Futile".

Scott

Contrary to one well known nay sayer, all the evidence I have seen indicates that those who are licenced are happy overall with it.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

..."Resistance is Futile".

I still like the "it was ///// for 5 years until it was changed to inter///// to better accommodate it's Global Stature."

We have all seen the quality drivers that having a drivers license produces.

All kidding aside, I support licensing. No its not perfect, but it does provide some level of performance. Licensing does add a little bit more professionalism to the business. Otherwise we would have NACHI,ASHI, or any other organization all providing certifications to the highest bidder.

I took the NACHI exam prior to receiving my Texas license. No comparison, the Texas licensing exam was much more difficult. I think the last TREC Advisor reported almost a 40% failure rate

I guess it depends on what the state(s) come up with as licensing requirements.

If the requirements are to strict, then is it for the "protection" of the consumer, "protection" of the RE agent or for the "protection" of current/long time inspectors. From what I have seen of state licensing proposals (as here in Wasgington State) think it is more the latter two!!!

State requirements/license would be ok, if it is fair to all, even those newly entering the HI business.

A license should be based on ones education, prior building experience (if any), and a test to determine that persons knowledge of the business.

From what I have seen, most legisation requires a ton of "prior" inspections. but how is one able to satisfy that requirement if they are "locked" out of the business?

A person should be judged on his ability, prior experience in the building trades, and a comprehensive test.

The RE industry should have no business/voice in the HI business or legislation. It is a definate conflict of interest, and there is enough anamosity between RE agents and inspectors as it is. It is a tough balancing act for the inspectors as it is to satisfy the home buyers interest/needs (inspectors first and only priorty) and the RE agents need, want, desire, commission, to close the escrow with out any "problems" If this isn't the fox guarding the hen house, don't know what is!!!! RE agents/home inspectors should stay at arms length!!!

A HI accrediated schooling and state administered profency test should be the only barrier to the HI license. Anything else is just protecting current inspectors from competition.

Originally Posted by Steven Meyer

A HI accrediated schooling and state administered profency test should be the only barrier to the HI license. Anything else is just protecting current inspectors from competition.

I understand your compromise position here (attempting to appease those who expect to earn dollars from licensing) but the reality does not fit the logic and only exacerbates the problem.

The only real licensing legislation that makes sense is one that is very strict and demands a not only education & testing but also a lengthy apprenticeship & peer review. Unfortunately, no state will ever pass such legislation and what states do pass today becomes nothing more that a nuisance tax. Furthermore the lack of stringent verifiable requirements only creates an illusion of competence which provides the consumer with a false sense of trust.

That is why I am adamantly opposed to the weak NHIE-driven home inspector legislation that has been foisted on our profession as of late and will remain in staunch vocal & active opposition.

Resistance is NOT futile and licensing solves nothing.

Back to topic.............

I think the real intent of this thread was not about licensing but the potential conflict of interest that exists with realtor-referred home inspectors. I stress the word potential because I do not believe that marketing to realtors is in itself a sign of impropriety. Ethics are up to the individual and everybody needs to decide for themself on which side of the fence they want to be. However, when you condider the amount of money that is exchanged in the sale of a house, it is surprising that more attention isn't paid to enacting legislation that removes any potential for improprierty or breach of ethical duties.

I fully support the idea of legislation that is currently in place in Massachusettes (sp?). Now I'm not saying that all realtors are unethical and all home inspectors are ethical. It goes both ways and there will always be bad seeds in both profession. But legislation that removes the realtor entirely from the decision as to which home inspector the buyers hire is good because it places the decision making process in the hands of the buyer where it should be. Now this obviously does place more responsibility in the hands of often-overwhelmed buyers. But buyers who are forced to research and find an inspector on their own are better educated buyers than those who place blind loyalty in their realtor.........who by the way does not get paid if the house doesn't sell.

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

The only real licensing legislation that makes sense is one that is very strict and demands a not only education & testing but also a lengthy apprenticeship & peer review. Unfortunately, no state will ever pass such legislation and what states do pass today becomes nothing more that a nuisance tax.

I AGREE 100%

What I don't agree with is what happened here in NJ.
Joe, you know all too well NACHI stuck their nose in the bill here and actually got the requiements LOWERED; from 300 hours to 180 hours (it may even be lower by now).

Raise the requirements, raise the knowledge, raise the bar!

Darren

New Jersey Home Inspection - About the House!

Darren

Raise the requirements
Raise the knowledge
Raise the Bar

That all sounds good, but you left something out, "reduce my competion". Just what were the requirements when you entered the HI business? Probably a truck, a ladder, and a clip board.

Would you have been able to go into HI had all these rules been in place, and if so, how much longer would have it taken you to get a decent business going? (and income)

I can and do agree that knowledge and construction experience (or an equivalent there of) should be to an extent mandatory, along with classes/schools/training, with an accrediated course of study. I will, however, conceed that many of the HI schools are pumping out "certificates" ,as are some franchises,for people who have no construction back ground, and have no clue what they are getting into. I have found/observed that they are not in business that long, and the rosy picture of "easy" money the schools/franchises promise,just isn't there.

With your proposal, a college graduate would never get a job, "Doesn't have the experience"

Your blanket statements above sounds to me very much like union control /protection to exclude competion. Supply and demand concept, the fewer the amount of inspectors, the more inspections I'll get attitude. Compete on the merits of your own knowledge, ability, and reputation. If you have to worry about your competion, then you don't have much faith in yourself.

And just how do you expect a person to get 180 or 300 hours of HI experience? I don't see it coming from current HI inspectors. Who would be dumb enough to train their competion?

Not a union fan, but at least they have/offer apprenticeship programs. When you solve that problem, let me know.

I am of the economic theory: "the good drives out the bad" It's called fair competion, and has works every time it's tried. I believe it's also called FREE ENTERPRISE. Novel concept

Do I think there should be some licensing requirements? Yup, just depends on the fairness of them.

I had to obtain years ago a general contractors license (in those years general contractors could and did do home inspections) and then I obtained a real estate license, and also an Insurance agent license. (I had trouble deciding what I wanted to be!!!) and still maintain those licenses today. (always have a fall back program)!!! there were hurdles, yes, but nothing compaired to what I see in some of these HI legislations I see coming down the pike.

And just how do you expect a person to get 180 or 300 hours of HI experience? I don't see it coming from current HI inspectors. Who would be dumb enough to train their competion?

Not a union fan, but at least they have/offer apprenticeship programs. When you solve that problem, let me know.

I can't speak for other states or HI organizations but my NAHI chapter here in SE Pennsylvania is happy to help (or is dumb enough to do so depending upon who you talk to) prospective inspectors looking to get into the HI profession by allowing ride along experience/hours. There is a fee involved for the inspector-to-be but there are inspectors willing to help others see what the profession is all about. In PA, the program is called the Ride Along Mentoring Program (RAMP). You can read more about it at Pennsylvania Home Inspectors Coalition P. H. I. C..

Steven,

You’re about 6 years too late and you’re barking up the wrong tree.
The 300 & 180 hours I referred to are classroom hours.

When I started in this business 12 years ago, I had plenty of construction experience. My father was a small general contractor (painting, roofing, additions etc). I starting working with him when I was about 8 years old (yep, couldn’t be left home, my mom worked, so I went with dad on his jobs).
When I was about 18, I joined the union, when I was about 25 I became an assistant superintendent for NJ’s largest commercial developer. Within a short time I was superintendent (a brief description is on my website). When commercial slowed, we turned to residential. I have about 260 townhouses & single family homes under my belt with that company. I worked there until I started doing home inspection in 1997. Before I conducted 1 home inspection (by myself) I had 120 hours of classroom instruction (by various individuals including Bill Ross & Douglas Hanson). Just so everyone understands, I purchased an existing company and went on ‘ride-alongs’ before & after my purchase.

Let’s get to NJ’s debacle. When licensing came to NJ, I was part of the ‘grandfathering’ clause. New Jersey’s first attempt at licensing wasn’t too bad. It included 300 hours of classroom instructions and 50 (FIFTY) mentored inspections. The mentored inspections included the student having to accompany a licensed inspector (either grandfathered or licensed thru the schooling) and had to write his own report. Mentoring was tough (both on the student & the inspector), students had a difficult time finding licensed inspectors who would mentor them (one argument was the licensed inspector didn’t want to educate his future competition) and to be honest, mentoring someone added time to the inspection.
When students found someone who would mentor them, they charged them between 50 & 100 dollars per inspection.

I personally did about 65 of these inspections and never (let me repeat that) never charged anyone a dime. I had one gentleman who conducted all 50 inspections with me. Since that time, they changed the law to (I don’t know the exact terms) about 140 hours and 10 mentored inspections (the schools are now responsible for the ride alongs)

I always stated an apprentice type system, with peer review should be the standard to become licensed. Just like a carpenter in NJ goes thru a 4 year program, why can’t a home inspector.
I also believe grandfathering should be modified so everyone has to at least take a test before getting a license. In NJ, it was set-up like ASHI; you had to submit 50 inspections addresses and the ‘committee’ chose 10 reports you had to submit.
I am also of the opinion everyone should at least be IRC certified. In New Jersey, there are 3 levels to be a building inspector; RCS (residential) ICS (commercial) and HHS (high hazard). In order to be RCS certified, you have to take a 90 hour class and pass 2 tests (building & mechanical)

Am I afraid of competition, no, not at all!
Am I afraid newly licensed inspectors will cause the ‘profession’ to suffer? YES!
But I also know it’s not only new inspectors, there are lots of ‘experienced’ idiots conducting inspections. Education and testing should be for everyone.

And Steven, before you reply, go here New Jersey Home Inspection - About the House! to see what I believe and stand for.

The original post isn't really about licensing. I think it's just an argument generator. I am not a huge fan of licensing. The idea that someone who is licensed is automatically qualified is crap. However, I think the license is an important factor in our profession. If it wasn't there all the contractor's and subcontractors would still be doing 'inspections'.
The real issue is the conflict between realtors goals and our purpose to our client. You can debate it all you want for naught. Realtors hate good inspectors. Yes realtors have ulterior motives and they say do what they can to close the deal. All you have to do is serve your client. Screw the politics of it all. Do a good inspection for the client.

Darren

Can't find much that I can disagree with you on your last post. Licensing, if it is fairly administered is a good thing. And I do agree that both current inspectors,future inspectures be subject to the same testing and proving their knowledge and abilities.

There are to many unqualified and (inspectore in the pocket of the realtors) out there, which does reflect negatively on the entire HI business.

The relationship of realtors and inspectors conflicts of interest that has a negative impact on the buyers, and on the HI industry I show below a couple of my experiences, and this prior to my going into the HI business.

Years ago (70's) when I was "flipping" houses in California, one realtor told me as I was selling one of my homes, "we'll get a blind inspector", I was not concerned a bit that the house would pass an inspection as it had been gutted and totally remodeled, with permit, but was surprised at her statement.

Another house I bought, selling agent stated the house had been inspected but the deal fell through, even showed me the report, and no major problems were noted. I could have cared less about the condition as I was going to gut it anyway, After getting into it, the detached garage was termite ridden, and the only thing holding the building togeather were the termites holding hands. Being that I bought the house at lot value, It was then that I realized that both the seller (and the realtor) were aware of this. It came out later (from a neighbor) that he heard that the the house had so many problems it was considered a "tear down".


Therefore, I agree with you, that there should be a method to weed out those type of inspectors. And require not only new inspectore, but current inspectors go through the same requirements is a prudent idea.

I am licensed in 3 states, Calif. Oregon, Washington state, and each state is different in its requirements.

Wa. State just passed a HI licensing law, and although current inspectors are "grandfathered" in, they will still have to submit the same information and testing, etc as a new Inspector must do. (Past inspections, education, etc) The only advantage a current inspector has, is they probably have a bunch of prior inspections they can use for that requirement. So, that won't impact me, other than time spent filling out paper work, and writing that check to the state. (follow the money). Rumor has it, that this is an ASHI "proposed" "Backed" bill.

California not to bad at this time, but there is a push for new licensing requirements. Much the same as NJ and is being "pushed" by ASHI in the California legislature.

Oregon, requires as one of the conditions of licensing, that you have a current E&O insurance ON FILE with the state. If E&O lapses, your license is suspended. This is a good thing and requirement!!! At least the CONSUMER has some protection from unqualified inspectors!

So, don't think we are to far apart. Licensing can be a good thing, as long as there is an honorable intention of the law. Guess, I just have a inherent mistrust of our elected officals and the government in general. Seems to me most legastive proposals are for the benefit of those who can afford the best at lobbying, and for the "self interest" of those writing the big checks to our representatives in government.

less government=more freedom.

Yes, I am cynical!!!!

By the way, GREAT WEB SIGHT, AM IMPRESSED!!!

Thanks for your input/discussion. One can always learn more from others prospective!!

We in Michigan are not licensed yet. As far as I can tell, licensing will only give credibilty to the inexperienced and/or mediocre inspector and would do harm to the consumer by giving state authorized legitimacy to many poor quality inspectors. All the schools will teach to the test. I don't beleive there are many states with a good licensing law that requires adequate training and experience. At this time you actually have to sell yourself and your education and experience to your client and the buyer beware.

I will pass on licensing as long as I can.

Patrick

I tend to agree with you!!!

Haven't seen a HI law yet, in any state, that addresses all the HI inspection problems/concerns in a logical way. Seems to be all fluff, no substance.

There has never been a single consumer group putting itself on the record in support of a single licensing bill in any state.

There has never been a single issue brought forth in the argument in favor of a licensing law that has ever been resolved by a licensing law.

Licensing solves nothing.

Originally Posted by Steven Meyer

Wa. State just passed a HI licensing law, and although current inspectors are "grandfathered" in, they will still have to submit the same information and testing, etc as a new Inspector must do. (Past inspections, education, etc) The only advantage a current inspector has, is they probably have a bunch of prior inspections they can use for that requirement.

Here are the rules:

Sec. 7. QUALIFICATIONS FOR LICENSURE. In order to become licensed as a home inspector, an applicant must submit the following to the department:

(1) An application on a form developed by the department;
(2) Proof of a minimum of one hundred twenty hours of classroom instruction approved by the board;
(3) Proof of up to forty hours of field training supervised by a licensed home inspector;
(4) Evidence of successful passage of the written exam as required in section 8 of this act; and
(5) The fee in the amount set by the department.

Sec. 8. WRITTEN EXAMS. Applicants for licensure must pass an exam that is psychometrically valid, reliable, and legally defensible by the state. The exam is to be developed, maintained, and administered by the department. The board shall recommend to the
director whether to use an exam that is prepared by a national entity. If an exam prepared by a national entity is used, a section specific to Washington shall be developed by the director and included as part of the entire exam.

Sec. 9. LICENSE LENGTH AND RENEWAL. Licenses are issued for a term of two years and expire on the applicant's second
birthday following issuance of the license.

It's true that inspectors who've been around for a while will not have to meet the education and supervised inspection requirements that new inspectors do, but they will have to pass whatever exam(s) the board adopts.

It's certainly not a law that's going to be a windfall for long-established inspectors, is going to put a large number of people out of business, or will be a huge hurdle for new inspectors to get over. Any inspector who has been in the business for only two years and has done only 100 inspections will be exempt from the 120 hour basic training and the 40 hour supervised training requirement and will only need to pass the test.

Those who are in business right now who have less than two years in the business and who haven't done more than 100 inspections, will have about 16 months from now to make the 100 inspections by the July 2009 drop dead date. If they've completed those 100 inspections, and have already been in the business for at least 8 months, as of right now, they'll only have to take the test. That's a pretty easy requirement.

As for the idea that established inspectors are going to somehow make a windfall off of this, I'd like someone to explain to me how that can happen. Remember, under this law, an established/experienced inspector only needs to have been in the business for two years. That's a huge percentage of the inspectors currently practicing in this state. It's not like there is this small group of 10 or 15 long-time inspectors who're conspiring to garner thousands of ride-alongs which they intend to charge huge dollars for - hell, these new folks will have a huge pool of folks they can do the ride alongs with.

Any inspector worth his salt, who's been doing this business for 4 - 5 months, should be able to easily breeze through the NHIE or the NAHI CRI exam, or whatever other exam the board decides to adopt. It's only the inspectors who at this very minute have less than 8 months in the business who are going to need to look at how much training they've currently garnered and will need to make sure they have the 120 hours of training and will need to find someone to spend a week riding around with to meet the 40 hour supervised training requirement. I'd venture to guess that number is only a very small percentage of the total number of inspectors operating in this state.

So, that won't impact me, other than time spent filling out paper work, and writing that check to the state.

If, as of right now, you've been in the business at least 8 months and you have, or will have, completed 100 inspections by July of 2009, no, it should not be an impediment to you. You and I will take the exact same test and, with that much time between now and then, passing that test will be easy.

Rumor has it, that this is an ASHI "proposed" "Backed" bill.

Cynical is right. Where did you get such an outlandish idea that this is an ASHI proposed bill? This whole thing started because a NACHI guy tried to get a pretty screwed up bill proposal sponsored by Rep. Erickson in November of 2005. If not for that guy's solo effort, this whole mess might never have come about. In fact, less than 4 months ago, some of the ASHI folks in WHILAG, the Washington Home Inspectors Legislative Advisory Group were in favor of killing any attempt at legislation because they felt that the sunrise review hadn't proved a need for home inspection legislation. The rest of WHILAG convinced them not to toss two years worth of work, to continue to try and get the bill's prime sponsor to come around to something that home inspectors could live with, and, failing that, to kill the bill.

It was WHILAG who got a companion bill sponsored in the house that was more representative of what home inspectors wanted than the Senator's first version. It was WHILAG that finally got the Senator to come around and agree to bring her bill closer to the house version. So, the idea that ASHI pushed the bill is absurd. That coalition began with members of all of the home inspection organizations, and, until just a few months ago, still had reps from each, until the last NACHI guy quit and never nominated anyone to replace himself.

ASHI does get credit for one thing though; it was the ASHI WW chapter that voted to support whichever direction WHILAG went and to allow ASHI WW's lobbyist to work with and take direction from WHILAG. If WHILAG hadn't gotten the assistance and guidance of those lobbyists, there's no way in hell they would have been able to exert enough pressure to have gotten any amendments made to Spanel's bill this session, and what would she surely have gotten pushed through, would have been far worse from a home inspectors viewpoint than what we ended up with, if WHILAG hadn't been able to kill it.

Knowing this, you might infer that ASHI WW could have controlled what happened next; you'd be wrong. The ASHI reps were outnumbered. The only way they could get their way was when/if the majority of the group agree with whatever idea they were advocating and the vote went that way. I can attest to the fact that there's an awful lot of stuff that all of the various association reps wanted that they didn't get.

Sometimes, it's better not to rely on rumors and just go to the source. The WHILAG meetings were always open to whoever wanted to walk in and sit down at the table. If you wanted to know what was going on, all you had to do was show up one morning for 4 hours out of every month and sit in.

I don't remember seeing you there.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

This has been a good, and informative discussion, on both sides of the issue.

Maybe some one could put up a poll!!??

My topics would be:

FOR
AGANST
UNSURE
DON't CARE

Think I would be of the don't care. No matter what our "elected" officals do,there is life after and not very much we can do about it anyway. Deal with it and move on!!!

license/no license, just another hurdle to over come. Just another "cost of doing business" I have found that no matter what elected officals come up with, I figure out a way to survive and live with it.

The old saying "you can't buck city hall"

The proof will be in the pudding as all this shakes out. The strong will survive.

Time will tell if all of this licensing is good or bad. Either way that goes, one side or the other will be able to say "I told you so"!

Licensing always seems to come to the forefront in this thread but it's not the real topic.........realtor referred inspectors is the topic. Is it that sensitive of a topic that people don't want to take a side?

Are you for or against realtors referring inspectors and why?

James Bushart opined:

There has never been a single consumer group putting itself on the record in support of a single licensing bill in any state.

There has never been a single issue brought forth in the argument in favor of a licensing law that has ever been resolved by a licensing law.

Licensing solves nothing.

Care to provide proof of those claims you make?

Originally Posted by Steven Meyer

Time will tell if all of this licensing is good or bad. Either way that goes, one side or the other will be able to say "I told you so"!

If that is the way you see it then I suggest you step back and view the bigger picture. It is not that licensing is "good" or "bad" those descriptions are too subjective but, if instead you ask a better question like has licensing fulfilled its stated objective you can then determine how effective the legislation has been verses what it set out to accomplish.

In most cases the goals of home inspector licensing was to raise the bar -or- protect the consumer -or- to rid the profession of incompetent, under-skilled, uneducated inspectors. Home inspector licensing when measured by those metrics has been summarized as nothing short of total failure by someone who was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to study our profession, Janet Swandby.

So, there must be something else bigger going on if licensing legislature is missing its stated goals but is still being pushed by forces from both within and outside of our profession. Its all about power and who gets to control our profession, who then are the enemies.

1). The realtors and the builders want to control us so that we are unable to hurt them or cost them time & money when we perform our service to their customers.

2). The schools and exam peddlers want to be able to pick the low fruit by forcing states to adopt their entry-level courses and exams which provide them with a guaranteed living at our expense.

It is obvious to everyone that home inspector licensing has been an abject failure when measured by its purported goals, but when viewed from the perspective of those special interest groups (schools, realtors, builders, & exam peddlers) who plague our profession it has been a stunning success which has been accomplished by duping a large number of home inspectors who thought that by supporting licensing legislation they would be able to shut out their competition.

Now answer this question; If you were a national exam peddler would you really want to raise the bar or just sell more exams? The answer of course reveals the reason why we have such weak home inspector legislation which is really nothing more than a nuisance tax on our profession. Licensing legislation as it is written today will never raise the bar or protect the consumer. It is time to wake up and realize that you have once again been fooled by the very folks who you trusted to protect your market, talk about irony.

Originally Posted by Darren Miller

Joe, you know all too well NACHI stuck their nose in the bill here and actually got the requiements LOWERED;

Likewise in Florida, Joe and his gang did not want licensing 'because of the low standards and it was a joke', so, ...

They did all they could do to lower the standards that the licensing called for!

And are now complaining that licensing is ineffective because of its low standards!

You've got to love their consistency of inconsistency!

Originally Posted by Harvey Hempelstern

There has never been a single consumer group putting itself on the record in support of a single licensing bill in any state.

New York InterNACHI - InterNACHI: home inspection

This was all I could find when I did a search on Lorraine Hutton. Her website is no longer up; I guess she realized her fight to lower the standards was wrong!

New Jersey Division of Consumer Affairs Home Inspection Advisory Committee Agenda

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Likewise in Florida, Joe and his gang did not want licensing 'because of the low standards and it was a joke', so, ...

When Jerry Peck realized that his plan backfired and that he would no longer be able to bully his competition through licensing legislation and would have to actually compete in the market on a level playing field he chose to leave the profession a beaten down loser.

Jerry having gone from being high in the leadership of FABI, a write-in candidate for ASHI national president and the hand-picked successor to Nick Gromicko's NACHI, he now sits on the sidelines a broken toothless warrior for lost causes meddling in a profession which has passed him and his vision of grandeur by. This is particularly sad for someone who had notions of controlling the home inspection profession within the state of Florida. That which is about to fall deserves to be pushed, glad I could help.

In my opinion, Indiana state licensing has been an overall positive thing. It prevents companies from hiring summer home inspectors, forces us to take continuing education classes and gave us more options to choose from on what CE classes we can and want to take. The biggest plus is that the news papers don't talk about how home inspectors are not licensed (negative press even for good home inspectors).

When it comes to being a home inspector, all I have to do is inform them of the process and cost for schooling, licensing and insurance plus the time it takes to become a home inspector (it's funny how the look on their face changes).

When it comes to Realtors recommending home inspectors. Why not. If the home inspector is a soft inspector, it will catch up with him through lawsuits and an upset buyer complaining to their Realtor for referring him.

When it comes to Realtors controlling home inspectors, I don't see that happening in Indiana.

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

When Jerry Peck realized that his plan backfired and that he would no longer be able to bully his competition through licensing legislation and would have to actually compete in the market on a level playing field he chose to leave the profession a beaten down loser.

Jerry having gone from being high in the leadership of FABI, a write-in candidate for ASHI national president and the hand-picked successor to Nick Gromicko's NACHI, he now sits on the sidelines a broken toothless warrior for lost causes meddling in a profession which has passed him and his vision of grandeur by. This is particularly sad for someone who had notions of controlling the home inspection profession within the state of Florida. That which is about to fall deserves to be pushed, glad I could help.

Joey,

I don't know what you been smokin' ... an' I don't wanna know either ... the second hand smoke must be powerful enough to kill brain cells, because apparently the 'first hand smoke' (and other stuff) sure is.

Joey, your fantasy needs something to liven it up a bit, why not reach back in those warped brain cells and pull out some more fantasy - see just how good you can make it ... that is, if there are any live brain cells still there.

OK:OK--realtor referred inspections!!!!

I see little problem with realtor referred inspections, as long as the realtor is FULLY AWARE that your inspection is for the benefit of the buyer. Not a "sales tool" for the realtor to hid behind.

That being said, my big problem are realtors that want the inspection to protect their behind, want a soft non deal killing inspection, some one else to put the blame on if the buyer finds out later things not as represented. and are willing to hang you out to dry if things do go wrong!!!

It is a tough balancing act, trying to do your best for the buyer (your first and foremost responsibility), not ticking off the realtor in the hopes of further business from them, (if that is of concern that a deal killer will negatively impact your realtor referrals, best to mark that self interested realtor off your list) OR go into another business.

Most, if not all, inspections are set up by the buyers agent, and if your inspection is honest, even a "deal Killer", the agent should kiss your A** for saving THEM from a bad transaction.

I find that most deals that die are the fault of the LISTING AGENT and THE SELLER!!!! They just won't, don't know how, to deal with the issues involved to the benefit of both parties.

To illustrate that fact, I recently did an inspection where the house had some serious issues. The house had been poorly maintained and neglected for years. Needless to say, it ultimately became a deal killer, but didn't need to be, as the house was in an area the buyers really wanted, they liked the house, etc. and really wanted it, but didn't want all the problems that came with it.
Long story short, the buyers walked away from the deal, the buyers agent kept showing them houses, and they found a new home with no problems (I did the inspection) that met their needs. All with in several days.
Several days later, the listing agent called the buyers agent saying the seller (of the first house} "might" be willing to "consider" some of the problems. When told the prospectie buyers had purchased another house, listing agent not a happy camper.
Buyers agent was a happy camper, she got out of a potential bad/nightmare sale, and still got a commission by working with the buyers for a house that met their needs and turned out to be a better deal. And in fact she called me thanking me for my inspection report, saying that the dead deal saved her from a bad transaction that could have caused hard feelings and possible law suite. To the buyers, their agent was a "hero" by keeping them away from a bad deal.

So, as long as you stay arms length from the realtor, do honest up front inspections, and don't worry about the potential "back lash" from the realtor, it can work out. The biggest problem I have observed between realtor/inspector relationships, is the inspector worrys more about continued business from the realtor than he does to his responsibility to the home buyer. Any realtor that dings you for a "rough" report, is not worth it. Don't walk, RUN from that realtor!!

In a perfect world, it would be great (best) for the buyer to research and pick their own inspector, but unfortunately the real estate industry has imbedded itself into the inspection business, mostly by excluding in many cases, very qualified and honest inspectors. It is for that reason I do not spend much time or effort in courting RE agents. I rely and use advertising dollars directed to buyers, referrals, and other trades contacts for business, so there is never a conflict of interest on my part.

A realtor referral can be ok, as long as everyone is on the same page. Just watch your backside!!!

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Joey,

I don't know what you been smokin' ... an' I don't wanna know either ... the second hand smoke must be powerful enough to kill brain cells, because apparently the 'first hand smoke' (and other stuff) sure is.

Joey, your fantasy needs something to liven it up a bit, why not reach back in those warped brain cells and pull out some more fantasy - see just how good you can make it ... that is, if there are any live brain cells still there.

I like a good smoke as much as the next man, but neither my judgment nor my memory has been effected by my indulgences, but none the less please feel free to correct any supposed mistakes regarding my version of your illustrious past.

I remember back in 2004 when you would swagger around the message boards threatening to impose your version of Marshall law on the Florida home inspection profession claiming that you & Jeff Hooper would make sure that any law enacted would come with heavy qualifications and prerequisites. The law that was finally enacted was the weakest in the nation, please do us no more favors... please.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

Gee MaMA, I wasn't aware that if one had a license they where qualified to perform whatever that license was for without a misstep?
Perhaps if you lived a little longer you would have the wisdom to know that even doctors screw up, but who would know as their mistakes are buried?

Your question wasn't about perfection Jerry, it was about any trade where licensing "improved" the individual practicing that trade My question to you is name a "trade" where licensing or regulation by the State didn't, at least to some extent, provide protection to the public.

In my Home State HI's are not yet regulated, it may come up soon though, but General contractors are, the only requirement they face is to register with the State and show proof of Workman's Comp insurance if they have employees, and a $300,000 Liability insurance, there is no test or proof of competency, but lack of competency and/or honesty will soon lead to the loss of the Contractor's Insurance and will put the Contractor out of business. The State leaves it up to "free enterprise" and private business (insurance companies) to determine how long incompetency etc. will be permitted.

I don't market to Realtors, I do hand them a Business Card at inspections, and I do accept referrals from them, there's a difference between accepting and seeking (marketing). Joe B's Association has many members who cry about Realtor referrals, yet the Association is set up as a direct Realtor Marketing tool, from Mouse Pads with the association logo, to its various "Certification" Marketing scams like "Move In Certified" and "Certified Master" every gimmick is directed towards getting Realtor Referrals.

The other big Associations aren't that much better, but at least they don't cry so loud about Referrals while at the same time seeking them.

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

but none the less please feel free to correct any supposed mistakes regarding my version of your illustrious past.

This is the post you were referring to:

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

When Jerry Peck realized that his plan backfired and that he would no longer be able to bully his competition through licensing legislation and would have to actually compete in the market on a level playing field he chose to leave the profession a beaten down loser.

Jerry having gone from being high in the leadership of FABI, a write-in candidate for ASHI national president and the hand-picked successor to Nick Gromicko's NACHI, he now sits on the sidelines a broken toothless warrior for lost causes meddling in a profession which has passed him and his vision of grandeur by. This is particularly sad for someone who had notions of controlling the home inspection profession within the state of Florida. That which is about to fall deserves to be pushed, glad I could help.

This is the corrected version of that post:

[qutoe].[/quote]

Gee, Joey, there was nothing left after deleting all your fantasy.

That's right, the "." (period) at the end was the only thing which was correct.

So Jerry,

What is it that you have selective memory about?

1). Your failed FABI Leadership role?

2). The fact that before ASHI tossed you out because you refused to pay your dues, you attempted an ill fated run at the presidency as a write in candidate?

3). That Nick picked you to be his successor to the Executive Director chair at NACHI?

4). Or that you left our profession when you could no longer compete but you still hang around attempting to convince anyone who will listen to you that your opinions still mater?

Let me know which points you wish to discuss and we'll all walk through them together reminiscing, like the old days.

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

So Jerry,

What is it that you have selective memory about?

Let's start with *your* lack of knowledge, and lack of skill in determining when your lack of knowledge should be kept to yourself so as to not make you look like the fool you apparently are.

1). Your failed FABI Leadership role?

Let's see, several terms as a director and officer on the board, nothing "failed" there.

2). The fact that before ASHI tossed you out because you refused to pay your dues, you attempted an ill fated run at the presidency as a write in candidate?

ASHI didn't "toss me out" *I* "did not renew" because of the branding fiasco.

3). That Nick picked you to be his successor to the Executive Director chair at NACHI?

He did? When? No one ever told me that.

Before or after I told Nick to 'keep the dues I had paid and donate them to his favorite charity, but that I wanted to be removed from the membership roll'? Of course, though, it took many e-mails to get myself extracted from the membership roll. Therein is proof that "no good turn goes unpunished".

4). Or that you left our profession when you could no longer compete but you still hang around attempting to convince anyone who will listen to you that your opinions still mater?

I was doing quite well when I retired, thank you. I only had two other inspectors who were 'my competition' and we were not 'competition' for each other, we were 'allies' with each other, helping each other out all the time.

I'm also not trying to convince anyone that my opinions still matter, I am offering help, you either take it leave it, or have discussions about what/why/where regarding what is being discussed.

Except, of course, for you, you can't seem to carry on any type of discussion about anything.

Let me know which points you wish to discuss and we'll all walk through them together reminiscing, like the old days.

Joey,

You weren't even around in "the old days" and you and I cannot "together reminiscing, like the old days" as we did not have many discussions to reminisce about - other than you asking for help in dealing with the ASHI Death Grip on the Tampa Bay area and me offering you options for things you could do to combat it or deal with it.

My only sin was in trying to help you - something which you did not deserve (but, on ASHI's part, they did deserve it - so not all was lost ). As for now, ASHI deserves you in the Suncoast chapter and in the ASHI organization - what more needs to be said about the low standing of ASHI than that, in fact, what more *can be said* than that ... nothing.

I would pity ASHI for your presence there, except that I have no pity for ASHI either - you two deserve each other.

It's like two snakes in the grass playing with each other, each trying eat the other.

You guys are something else!

Joe - Jerry

This is kinda fun. We could make this into a "judge Judy" episode!

Do either (or both of you) care to tell the rest of us what this is all about? Why don't each of you write a short run down of your beef with each other.

Would make this squable more interesting for the rest of us.

Then, maybe we can do a "jury" vote on which of you is in the right.

Originally Posted by Steven Meyer

Do either (or both of you) care to tell the rest of us what this is all about? Why don't each of you write a short run down of your beef with each other.

You've seen my short run down above.

Joe seems to have gotten his shorts all hitched about a something that even I do not know. Or maybe I did know and it was so small that I've forgotten it?

Either way, when anyone mentions "licensing" Joey foams at the mouth and chomps at the bit, just itchin' to 'git somebody'.

A good inspector as well as a good businessman should not be afraid of any rules, as long as they're the same for all.

Like many things in life, the ones yelling the loudest have the weakest case.

I've always worked in a state with certification laws. It's just a part of the business. I like the level playing field and the end result for the consumer, which is why we are all here, right? Without the customer we don't have a job.

All the mud slinging gets really old.... We're just home inspectors... it's not like we're out curing cancer. Crap like this just brings the whole profession down.

If your state starts legislation, do your best to give your input but plan to adapt, regardless of the outcome. If you are truely good at what you do you'll succeed no matter what the rules are.

Or you can just scream and yell on some internet message board where no one will hear you.

....and now we know how rumours get started by the NACHI fella's. Anything written and posted by a NACHI member should be taken with a grain of salt and a glass full of Kool-Aid!

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Or you can just scream and yell on some internet message board where no one will hear you.

We are doing much more than that... we are taking over the leadership positions of the associations you licensing crack-whores love & cherish and when we achieve majority the license pushing will all but cease. Peck and his tired powerless words can't help you now, his day has past and its a brave new world. Breathe deep the gathering gloom.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

....and now we know how rumours get started by the NACHI fella's. Anything written and posted by a NACHI member should be taken with a grain of salt and a glass full of Kool-Aid!

WOW! So anything written and posted by a NACHI member should be taken with a grain of salt and a glass full of Kool-Aid. What a great statement!

MATT FELLMEN--- Seems to sum up the licensing/non licensing debate perfectly!!! Couldn't agree more!!

RAY WAND---JOE BURKSON---Maybe the two of you ought to join forces, it seems you both have issues with national organizations. RAY with NACHI, Joe with ASHI. Note, they have both been members of one those respective organizations at one time or the other. It's a free country , guys, you don't have to belong to any organization.

Kool Aid anyone?

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

......Anything written and posted by a NACHI member should be taken with a grain of salt and a glass full of Kool-Aid!

That was certainly true,

at least when you were a member of the very org you now disparage.

Michael

I realize the truth hurts from time to time. If you don't want to hear the truth cover your ears!

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Michael

I realize the truth hurts from time to time. If you don't want to hear the truth cover your ears!

Raymond, tell the nice folks here why you are no longer NACHI

Michael,

They already know why I am here.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Michael,

They already know why I am here.

Well then. make sure you and Lewis and some others behave.

You can't get away with the shenanigans you pulled over at the BIG BOARD.

Michael why don't you explain the shenanigans over on the other board, I am sure we all want to be enlightened with your views on jurisprudence.

Originally Posted by Steven Meyer

MATT FELLMEN--- Seems to sum up the licensing/non licensing debate perfectly!!! Couldn't agree more!!

RAY WAND---JOE BURKESON---Maybe the two of you ought to join forces, it seems you both have issues with national organizations. RAY with NACHI, Joe with ASHI. Note, they have both been members of one those respective organizations at one time or the other. It's a free country , guys, you don't have to belong to any organization.

Steven,

I have no problem with ASHI I am a COR Representative and local VP to my chapter, what have you all been smoking? My membership has no bearing on my stand against licensing, at one time ASHI used to fight hard against bad licensing legislature it is only of late and only a few who believe that licensing is good for our profession, most of us still have no friggin' use for government takeover of our profession.

Joe, then why does ASHI keep pushing licensing legislation???

I don't think ANY orginaziation has ANY business inserting themselves in a states licensing business. That can best be handled by local HI inspectors, if they so wish to take the time to talk/mail their elected officials.
Seems to me that each (all) "national" organizations want a place at the table. Turf war!!!! Wish all would stay out of my states business, we have enough problems as it is. Fight your turf war elsewhere, not in my state!!!

I have little to no use for government and have an inherent distrust of government, therefore I do question every piece of legislation they come up with, currently being licensing of HI inspectors. What is their REAL agenda??? Is that agenda being pushed by outsiders for their own self interests? That seems to me to the biggest problem, outside interests!!!! My take on all this is: National HI organizations, mind your own business, if we need your help, we'll ask for it!!

Raymond Wand

From what I hear you have been barred/locked out of the NACHI BB. Now you have found another forum to continue your diatribe. If you have issues with your prior organization, then as a free person, you can just not pay your dues and drop out.

But then you are Canadian, so guess you don't have those freedoms.

Get over it!!!!

Originally Posted by Steven Meyer

Joe, then why does ASHI keep pushing licensing legislation???

I don't think ANY orginaziation has ANY business inserting themselves in a states licensing business. That can best be handled by local HI inspectors, if they so wish to take the time to talk/mail their elected officials.
Seems to me that each (all) "national" organizations want a place at the table. Turf war!!!! Wish all would stay out of my states business, we have enough problems as it is. Fight your turf war elsewhere, not in my state!!!

I have little to no use for government and have an inherent distrust of government, therefore I do question every piece of legislation they come up with, currently being licensing of HI inspectors. What is their REAL agenda??? Is that agenda being pushed by outsiders for their own self interests? That seems to me to the biggest problem, outside interests!!!! My take on all this is: National HI organizations, mind your own business, if we need your help, we'll ask for it!!

Steve, ASHI National does not push licensing legislation. It is done by the local inspectors. Legislators tend to not listen to out of state buttinskies!

If you have proof that ASHI National was involved in getting a law in WA or any other state please share it.

Steven,

With respect, there was no turf war here. When the handwriting was on the wall, a bunch of folks from all of the associations, plus independents, got together and spent two years seeing to it, as best as they were able, that what came out of Olympia would be controlled by home inspectors, that we were no longer held under the department of agriculture's thumb, that there was at least one consistent standard that every home inspector in the state has to meet, and that there would be consequences for those who violated the rules or cheated customers. They were successful at that.

It's over now; the law has been passed and signed. It's time to stop ranting about it and get down to the business of learning to live with it. Get with other inspectors you know, figure out who you think can fairly and objectively represent all of you on the board, and then convince those persons to apply for one of the board spots. If you qualify and want to do it, apply yourself. If not, then offer suggestions to and help the board get the work done that needs to be done during the next 18 months to ramp-up.

Anything else, particularly engaging in debates with Joe and Harvey and anyone else who isn't in this state and hasn't got a dog in this fight is just wasted energy. You'll drive yourself right up the wall railing about it; best to just get on with business and let Joe and Pussfart, er., Harvey, get on with their arm waving and doomsday predictions.

When those pols that they're so proud of having temporarily defeated eventually get their way - and they will - they'll find themselves marginalized and laboring under laws with rules that they won't want but might have been able to mitigate somewhat if they'd put away their anarchist textbooks, stopped calling people crack whores, and just got involved in the process.

But then again, crude internet thugs and little jag goffers kind of thrive on that kind of stuff, don't they?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

Enough! This thread has absolutely zero value. When name calling begins it usually signals the end of any worthwhile exchange.
I'm out of here......... .

Originally Posted by Steven Meyer

Joe, then why does ASHI keep pushing licensing legislation?

Good question and one I struggled with for a very long time since I am not an ivory tower guy I was not privy to the inner workings of ASHI, but through watching & listening I began understand the madness behind motive.

The simple answer is ASHI is very dedicated to the NHIE, it created and financially supported The Examination Board of Professional Home Inspectors for a long time and the only way for the NHIE to survive on it's own would be to have states adopt this exam as the required licensing exam.

That is why ASHI national promotes the licensing of home inspectors even though when licensing comes (especially weak licensing like we have here in Florida) it undermines ASHI membership in areas where there is no local presence. It is beyond me why ASHI is willing to sacrifice itself on the alter of the NHIE but that appears to be the way it is.

Currently it is impossible to conceive that any meaningful change will come regarding ASHI's stand on licensing but recent economic events may help to break the stranglehold the NHIE has on ASHI licensing policy. I would not be surprised though to find out that in the end it was the NHIE that survived and thrived while ASHI floundered.

Steven Meyer stated:

Raymond Wand

From what I hear you have been barred/locked out of the NACHI BB. Now you have found another forum to continue your diatribe. If you have issues with your prior organization, then as a free person, you can just not pay your dues and drop out.

But then you are Canadian, so guess you don't have those freedoms.

Get over it!!!!

I suggest you get your facts straight. It seems once again someone with little knowledge wishes to be seen as being a know it all.

Firstly its none of your business.

Secondly and contrarily, I have not been barred/locked out of NACHI BB if you cared to check you would see that I am still posting there under Raymond E. Wand, so get your facts straight! I am no longer a member, and considering that I never paid for my membership I really wasn't a member. If you condone an organization which has no bylaws or policies, and operates its ESOP contrary to due process then perhaps you should join NACHI and find out for yourself how its run.

As to this forum do you see me making any diatribes? If I follow your example I guess I just might have to start. Besides freedom of association and freedom of thought/opinion is guaranteed, unless of course you are a redneck American.

Further I suggest you do your homework and find out what associations I belong to, as I am a member in good standing in the other associations.

And since you opened the lid, how do we know you are not some other NACHI member who finds it necessary to post under assumed names, nor the fact you don't have any credentials or website listed under your profile?

Thanks Steve, try and post informative factual information you might get better mileage from your vacuous post.