I often come across "improvements" that "seem acceptable" but did not have permits pulled for them. Some are easy to see the issues on such as decks... but others have the work hidden such as basement remodels that involve hidden plumbing and electric components.

Does anyone have a nice "Boiler plate" that says eloquently that the improvements do not appear to have been done with a permit and may have hidden defects and violations...." that I can copy from?

My clients are always also asking me "what is the risk...can they make the buyer take it out later... can I get an "as built permit" and so on... and I don't have eloquent answers...

I am in MARYLAND if it makes a difference...

It's almost every house with me. I have this at the beginning of my report:

Note: The determination of the proper building permits and paperwork is beyond the scope of the inspection. It is recommended that you make sure that the proper permits were applied for and finalized with the county government.

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Jim Robinson
New Mexico, USA

The issue is that we already KNOW that the proper permits were not applied for...

"NOW What?" is what my clients ask...

Getting permits on work already done is not possible, it may not have even been this owner who had the work done...

Detailed specific inspection (Plumber, electrician...) may not be possible either without tearing out walls and scoping pipes in floors...

Price reduction for unpermitted work...Maybe... and then they will need to deal with the same issue when THEY go to sell....

I am hopping to find an eloquent paragraph or so that sums up all of these issues and presents them well...

So, I assume that is in your disclaimer. So, if I even read it, I won't understand what it means because it does not identify which work I need to check for.

Why not just say "the new repairs to the xyz" do not look professionally done and would have required permits and inspections. Check with the town." or some such direct language.

You can get a permit for about anything already done. Now of course it means there may have to be dismantling or opening up or removing drywall or waht ever the case so they can determine what has actuially been done.

Depending on the type of work done it may be a simple task. But then again everything may have to be pulled apart in order to satisfy the AHJ.

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Ted Menelly
Castle Home Inspection Services
www.inspectmycastle.com

In some cases the result is two options: 1) tear it down; 2) tear it down and rebuild it right. Option 2) is not always available as the unpermitted structure may have been encroaching on a property line or easement and the AHJ may not allow option 2), the AHJ may simply state option 1).

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
www.AskCodeMan.com

Actually Bob, you have no idea whether something has had a permit issued for it "unless" you have already done the permit research. You can, however, determine that one or more deficiencies are present that appear to indicate that work may have been perfromed without obtaining the proper permits. We see these red flags all the time.

It is always important to inform your client of what you are seeing, describe why it is considered a deficiency, recommend what to do, i.e. refer. If there are enough deficiencies regarding a certain area, areas, equipment, system, or systems then you have an obligation to tell your client that you believe a permit may not have been issued, and that they should inquire with the Owner in that regard or do a permit research.

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Mitch Toelle
HomeAware Property Inspections
Bakersfield, CA 661-204-5747

Here's an example of how I report such suspicions:

Observation: The defects listed in the "Structural-Findings", "Plumbing-Findings" and "Electrical-Findings" sections of this report (below) - especially the electrical defects in the kitchen and bathrooms and the plumbing and structural modifications in the basement - suggest to me that some work at this property may not have been done by experienced trades persons and/or that this the work may not have been performed in accordance with the requirements in effect when the work was performed.

Analysis: In my experience such "nonstandard" work is sometimes performed without required permits and inspections. If so, at a future date the the local authority having jurisdiction ("AHJ", such as a local building department) may require that such work be redone to current standards. If that happens, as the current owner you will be responsible for obtaining permits and inspections and for the cost of repairs even if the non-compliant work was done by a previous owner. In addition, you could be required to perform the work to current requirements and standards, which is some cases could be considerably more expensive than just correcting the work to the older standards in effect at the time it was originally done.

Recommendation: Request that the seller or their agent document that this work was permitted, inspected and accepted by the AHJ. If the seller cannot provide such documentation, request that they have the property inspected by AHJ for compliance with current requirements. If this inspection cannot be performed, research the permit history of this property at AHJ to determine if all required permits were obtained and all required final inspections were performed for all work done since construction. If permits and/or all final approvals were not obtained determine if any additional upgrading or improvement is currently required to bring the property into compliance with state and local requirements, and obtain quotes to perform this work.

As such work could be a significant or major expense expense I recommend you obtain this information prior to the expiration of your inspection contingency period and/or consult with an attorney regarding steps you can take to protect yourself from unexpected expense to perform these repairs.

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Michael Thomas
Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
http://paragoninspects.com

I would say something like this:

"It appears possible that the addition on the west side of the home may have been completed without proper permites. Recommend that you request permit documentation from the seller. If unable to provide, recommend collecting information concerning this addition from the local regulatory bodies."

Or...

"Recommend that the seller provide all applicable permits for the addition on the west side of the home."

Doing it this way allows you to make your statement (questioning the whether they were permited or not), yet doing it in a way that puts all of the pressure on the seller. If the purchaser asks the seller to provide the permits and he/she can not... well... then you are already working towards a solution.

If the seller, by contract, agrees to provide permits and can not, THEN THEY HAVE JUST AGREED TO DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET THEM FOR YOU... WHICH MAY MEAN CORRECTING ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE STRUCTURE.

What? Permits will make a difference as to whether something is right or wrong? Some of you may have too much faith in the municipal system.

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Eric Barker
Moraine Woods Consulting, Inc.
Barrington, IL

I just say " Determination of whether proper building permits were obtained for this conversion (addition, etc.) is beyond the scope of this inspection. I recommend researching building permits prior to close of escrow.
Honestly, it's not your job.

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"Some people are like slinkies. They serve absolutely no useful purpose. But still put a smile on your face when pushed down a flight of stairs."

Agree.... In 10 years of doing this I've yet to be in a house older than about 10 years that doesn't have some work that should have been permitted and wasn't and is done wrong. It's just a can of worms way larger than we're paid to open. Report what you see and go home.

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www.crawfordinspections.com

Certainly it "isn't our job"... that said, very few really stick to the basic, stripped down version of home inspections that are provided in State of Association SOP's. Some use "tools", others use "words", others add this or that.

I have no blanket way that I handle it. The other day I had an addition on a home that was only 10 years old, and it was very obvious that it didn't have permits taken out on it. While my work in construction and my work as a home inspector give me some understanding that Code inspectors often do not do a good job, I could tell there wasn't a permit.

I wrote down the problems that existed, but I added: "Recommend that the seller provide all applicable permits for the addition or that the work be performed deemed necessary, in addition to what was noted in the report, by the applicable regulatory bodies."

I did this because if the purchaser, in my market, asked hte seller to fix X Y and Z they would have said no. However, if the purchaser asked what I told him to ask and the seller agreed to it, he would end up having 1) the County notice, 2) would have to finish the work to obtain applicable permits (there wasn't even a certificate of occupancy provided for this house!?).

So, in a round about way, the buyer may be able to get the work done because the seller will be pushed into it not because of the buyer alone, but because the County will be on him.

This is just an example. Different situations call for different things. Everything comes down to what you are writing and how you are writing it.

I never said it "didn't" have a permit: I told him to collect the applicable permits.

jn

The hidden work as you said gets difficult.The basement needs a lot of attention and should be asked for separately.

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Nyc Mold Inspections