Be careful of price fixing - InspectionNews

Scott Patterson · #1 (**permalink**) 08-04-2007, 08:38 AM

A word of caution to anyone who might be associated with this group. A friend sent me a copy of a post the is about as close to price fixing as you can get. The President of the CMI organization even endorses it. I would be very careful.

Quote:

8/4/07, 6:30 AM
John McKenna
American Home Inspection, Thermal I...
NACHI Member
User Name: jmckenna1
Location: Crockett, Tx
Posts: 1,586

Re: Why the CMI Designation Will Fail

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbushart
With the renewed emphasis on increasing fees and the commitment of CMIs to lead the way in this effort, the title of this thread needs to be changed to "Why the CMI Designation Will Succeed".

With this as their goal, who among us cannot support them, their efforts, and their designation?

That sounds like a good idea... go back and change the title of the thread.
Well done.
--

John McKenna, CMI
President - Master Inspector Certification Board
Home - Certified Master Inspector
Professional Inspector & Approved Trainer (TREC #4565)
Certified Building Science Thermographer (#33493)
Texas Home Inspector, Thermal Imaging Inspection, Conroe, Bryan, Lufkin, Athens

Serving Lufkin, Nacogdoches, Huntsville, Crockett, Palestine, Conroe, The Woodlands, Livingston, Bryan, College Station, Athens, Jacksonville, Lake Conroe, Lake Livingston, Lake Palestine and All East Texas.

Then we have our friend the NACHI spokespersonJim Bushart aka. Harvey Hump.. saying he is for it as well.

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#196 8/4/07, 7:08 AM
James H. Bushart
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
NACHI Member
User Name: jbushart
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 5,869

Re: Why the CMI Designation Will Fail

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkage
There is something good to be said about a nice crisp about face.

My daughter, who recently got married, noticed I changed my mind about something the other day and said she must have gotten her ability to learn and change her mind, as needed, from me and was very pleased about it. It is refreshing when a good chip off the old block takes hold.

Whether it is I, who changed his mind, or the CMIs who have come together and committed to action to increase fees across the board for all members, it matters not. The necessary changes have been agreed to and...with that...the CMI designation deserves the support of every home inspector in the field.

As long as CMIs prove themselves as "masters" and "leaders" and lead the way to the next level...they will find more and more home inspectors throughout the country picking up their banner and marching with them.

I am one of them, once again.
--
"To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive." Robert Louis Stevenson

home inspection services missouri, home inspection
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- About Our Chapter

One of the times that a moderated board would come in handy. This type of stuff just can't be discussed like this. You can't get a group of folks together to conspire to raise fees like this.

Jerry Peck · #2 (**permalink**) 08-04-2007, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

This type of stuff just can't be discussed like this. You can't get a group of folks together to conspire to raise fees like this.

Scott,

That group looks like it just did partake in "price fixing".

Now, how many here think that Joe B., will sent this to the investigative reporter, or, even better, to the feds?

Uh? I don't see any hands raised. Wonder why not.

Richard Stanley · #3 (**permalink**) 08-04-2007, 09:23 AM

Price fixing would be for several members to agree to set a certain price for a service/product in a market .. I don't believe discussing and agreeing that prices for a service/product need to be raised qualifies. Example: All members in a market agree to price an inspection at $1,000.00. - no exceptions. That would eliminate competition and therefore be price fixing and illegal. However, if you operate gas stations and everyone prices the gas at the same price, that's legal!!! and called competitive pricing.

Scott Patterson · #4 (**permalink**) 08-04-2007, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Stanley

Price fixing would be for several members to agree to set a certain price for a service/product in a market .. I don't believe discussing and agreeing that prices for a service/product need to be raised qualifies. Example: All members in a market agree to price an inspection at $1,000.00. - no exceptions. That would eliminate competition and therefore be price fixing and illegal. However, if you operate gas stations and everyone prices the gas at the same price, that's legal!!! and called competitive pricing.

I just did a simple Google on Price Fixing. This is what I found:

Price fixing is an agreement by multiple competitors to set, raise or otherwise support the price for goods or services sold. Price fixing is considered anti-competitive. Price fixing can take many forms. Specific price-fixing practices are illegal in many countries, including the United States. In the US, the Antitrust Division of the US Department of Justice is responsible for enforcing price fixing laws and regulations, most notably the Sherman Act. Examples of price fixing practices that are prohibited include making agreements to establish specific discounts, not lower prices, adopt a standard pricing formula, or fix credit terms. Bid rigging and market allocation schemes are usually grouped with price fixing as illegal anti-competitive acts. Violation of the Sherman Act is a felony. Conviction for participation in a price fixing conspiracy can result in fines and/or prison terms. Victims of unlawful price fixing are entitled to seek restitution of up to three times damages suffered.

#5 (**permalink**) 08-04-2007, 10:17 AM

I think Scott Patterson is an idiot in desperate search for relevance.

Keep up the good work.

Jerry Peck · #6 (**permalink**) 08-04-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Stanley

Price fixing would be for several members to agree to set a certain price for a service/product in a market .. I don't believe discussing and agreeing that prices for a service/product need to be raised qualifies.

What Scott posted "Price fixing is an agreement by multiple competitors to set, raise or otherwise support the price for goods or services sold." is what I've always heard too.

A 'specific price' does not need to be agreed upon, only that everyone agrees to raise (or lower) their prices. I put in there 'lower' in there because when a businesses agree to lower their prices in order to make others lose money, that is also price fixing.

I suspect that the White Rabbit is calling Scott names because he got caught with his pants down and his hand in the cookie jar (please, do not speculate as to what he was doing with his hands, one in the cookie jar and one with his pants down ... yuck).

Scott Patterson · #7 (**permalink**) 08-04-2007, 04:30 PM

It took a common NACHI member to point out that price fixing was being discussed. Not the President, the CEO or Nick. Good job Joe F.

Quote:

8/4/07, 1:40 PM
Joe Farsetta
Advanced Professional Services Grou...
NACHI Member
User Name: jfarsetta
Location: Pearl River, NY
Posts: 1,250

Re: Why the CMI Designation is Destined for Success

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So long as we are not delving into any area which can be construed as price-fixing or price-gouging, we should be okay. We need to be careful what we discuss. Any mention of minimum pricing is an absolute no-no.

Sherman anti-trust legislation is nothing to sneeze at. As such, I strongly urge all those interested in posting on the matter to please refrain from any mention of fees, fee schedules, or minimum pricing.

Deleted Account · #8 (**permalink**) 08-04-2007, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I suspect that the White Rabbit is calling Scott names because he got caught with his pants down and his hand in the cookie jar...

I suspect that you got it wrong again, Harvey was merely commenting on the premise of Scott's argument, and surmised that Scott was reaching for straw in an attempt to build something relevant, but you already knew that.

Jerry Peck · #9 (**permalink**) 08-04-2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Now, how many here think that Joe B., will sent this to the investigative reporter, or, even better, to the feds?

Uh? I don't see any hands raised. Wonder why not.

Joe B.,

No, I got it right, didn't I?

Thom Walker · #10 (**permalink**) 08-04-2007, 11:06 PM

Those of you who haven't already determined how you believe about the issue of price fixing and monopolies may find the attached article of interest.
http://www.cei.org/pdf/1615.pdf

It appears to be a thesis or dissertation, but I believe it makes salient points.

Though Jerry and Scott are correct that our individual and collective butts could be in a sling for price fixing, it won't be because of the Sherman Anti trust Act. That involves interstate commerce and the FTC. It would be initiated by the Justice department and your individual State provisions.

One of the many reasons I wish I were insanely wealthy is that I would have the time and resources to bring suit against those RE Brokers who encourage restraint of trade by "informing" the consumer how much to expect to pay for an inspection. As well, I could afford to throw in ASHI, NACHI, NAHI, and any other trade organization that publishes that I am inferior because I don't belong to their club.

To add to my well documented love and respect for the Insurance Industry, you should be aware that they are covered under a short list of protected industries who are immune from prosecution of price fixing. What a surprise.

Bruce Breedlove · #11 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 01:52 AM

Speaking of price fixing - I am amazed how ,except for the discount brokers, almost all the RE agents' commissions just happen to be 6% (or whatever it is "set" at in a particular area) and THAT is not considered price fixing.

Eric Van De Ven · #12 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 05:07 AM

Scott,

I think the discussion over there might be on the cusp of price fixing, but I think that they are saying that if you are a CMI, you should be able to get more money for your inspections. I suspect they are of the opinion that if you have a few letters in back of your name, it entitles you to a larger fee. You know, like DDS, MD, etc...

#13 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Van De Ven

Scott,

I think the discussion over there might be on the cusp of price fixing, but I think that they are saying that if you are a CMI, you should be able to get more money for your inspections. I suspect they are of the opinion that if you have a few letters in back of your name, it entitles you to a larger fee. You know, like DDS, MD, etc...

The CMI designation is not "bestowed" on anyone. It is a designation that one, who meets the criteria, can use when he feels he is entitled to market himself as a "master" in this field. How many "masters" of anything will you find providing their services at a lower price than their competitors?

Scott Patterson · #14 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 09:24 AM

Hey, all I did was to post the news as it was sent to me. I tired to worn some folks and apparently it was heard as Joe F. posted the warning on the NACHI board. In all honestly I really could care less if the CMI group raise their prices. Most of them are already behind the norm and charge a lower fee than their competitors anyway, so it would just catch them up with the average.

I guess I will worry about the CMI group when I see them on ABC, CBS, NBC CNN of FOX news in the same commentary or new report on using a quality inspector as can be found with ASHI or NAHI. The mass media might not get it right all of the time, but folks sure do pay attention to it.

We all just need to do the best job we can do for our client and not worry what initials are behind ones name.

Mitchell Captain · #15 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 02:54 PM

Now, what would be funny is if Bushart gets convicted of price fixing. He would be so mad at himself for doing that one inspection.

Captain

Joseph P. Hagarty · #16 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Hey, all I did was to post the news as it was sent to me. I tired to worn some folks and apparently it was heard as Joe F. posted the warning on the NACHI board. In all honestly I really could care less if the CMI group raise their prices. Most of them are already behind the norm and charge a lower fee than their competitors anyway, so it would just catch them up with the average.

I guess I will worry about the CMI group when I see them on ABC, CBS, NBC CNN of FOX news in the same commentary or new report on using a quality inspector as can be found with ASHI or NAHI. The mass media might not get it right all of the time, but folks sure do pay attention to it.

We all just need to do the best job we can do for our client and not worry what initials are behind ones name.

Since the introduction of "ASHI Branding", what is ASHI doing to distinguish themselves from the Competition?

As a Membership Chair, which examples of ASHI market prominence would you cite as a reasonable measure for those considering affiliation with your chosen Organization?

Jerry Peck · #17 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitchell Captain

Now, what would be funny is if Bushart gets convicted of price fixing. He would be so mad at himself for doing that one inspection.

Captain

Mitchell,

Mr. White Rabbit would not even need to *do* an inspection to be complicated in price fixing. It is also 'the agreement' to fix prices, not the just action of using those fixed prices, which gets one into the Big Doo Doo of price fixing.

And, as posted, *the agreement* was made. That *is all* it takes.