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  1. #1
    Robert Runchey's Avatar
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    Default Is this floor joist right?

    I looked at this one yesterday and wanted to get feedback from the group. One floor joist is attached to the two adjacent joists by way of hangers. Is this acceptable?

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  2. #2
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    I see some holes in the hangers. check the numbers.

    Best

    Ron


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Runchey View Post
    I looked at this one yesterday and wanted to get feedback from the group. One floor joist is attached to the two adjacent joists by way of hangers. Is this acceptable?
    I would have to say no. Since these are TJIs (or similar), I would expect a squash block or web stiffener behind the hanger. I doubt that a connection like that is allowed in the installation instructions. In addition, how long is the header? If it spans a significant distance, then using a TJI as the support would not be adequate and it should have been an LVL or Paralam like the supported joist/beam. Any significant amount of weight would just fold that TJI. The TJI cannot support that much weight. Also, why wasn't the joist just supported by the wall? Seems silly to head-out the framing 4 inches from a wall.

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  4. #4
    Robert Runchey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    I was also thinking why the joist wasn't dropped on top of the wall. The span is roughly 15 to 20 feet in length. I'm going to call out a diagonal crack in the foundation and refer this also as further evaluation recommended. Input is much appreciated.


    Thank you


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    I would have to say no. But you can look at the various TJI/Microlam/LVL pdf's and get final info from those.
    The various problems I see initially,
    - usually I see the lvl supporting the TJI, not the other way around; without blocking/stiffener at intersection I doubt it is acceptable.
    - looks like a poor design method with the lower lvl in the wall and the upper one in front of the wall; doesn't make sense.
    - does the TJI rest on that wall for support or continue on? If it rests on the wall then it isn't OK as is. The wall isn't double plated and one stud sort of under the TJI isn't sufficient.
    - is the TJI on the right shorter in height than the left on? Why not double plate the wall and have it supported by the lower lvl?
    From the picture the design just doesn't make sense. The manuf. pdf's have diagrams of install methods.

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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Unusual for sure. A lot of times there will be a double I joist, plus the web stiffeners. Was there a large ceiling in front of this that they wanted to open up above the wall? It does seem weird that the header isn't eliminated entirely and just end the i joists on top of the wall.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  7. #7
    Robert Runchey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Not sure if I clarified or not but the lvl in the picture is only two spans wide or roughly 34 inches and fits in between the two spans. All the TJI's (except for the one in the pic) extend from the foundation and sill to the a main lvl which is fine. The question I had was with this one TJI which is much shorter and is attached with hangers to adjacent TJI's. My appologies if I've not provided enough information.

    You guys are the best,


    Thanks to all that responded.

    Bob Runchey


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    They may have headered that off for a toilet or bath tub drain, or some other reason. To be "by the book" it should probably still have a doubled I-joist and/or web stiffeners, but it shouldn't be too big of a deal if it's only one joist. The manufacturer of the I-joists will have a pretty detailed installation booklet that will cover all of those aspects. I'm framing an addition on my house with the same type of material, and they've got lots of little details that are supposed to be followed.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  9. #9
    Robert Runchey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Thanks Jim. I'll look around to see if I can find installation specs for this material.

    Have a great evening,

    Bob Runchey


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    It looks like there is another LVL in line with that joist. It looks like it in the pic. Also noticed a stud to the left that looks like it was cut and then placed it?

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  11. #11
    Robert Runchey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Rick,
    I have to stop over tomorrow to pick up radon kits so I'll look at it further. I did notice the cut stud and I'm not real sure why it was cut? The only thing I could think of was maybe another header & door are being cut in? There was another lvl on the other side as you indicated in the picture but it was not very long. There is a tub just above this area as Jim referenced to yesterday. I'll take a closer look tomorrow.

    I also see that your from OP IL. I lived there for many years not too long ago. Great area!

    Thanks again gentelman,
    Bob Runchey


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Not sure if this has been mentioned, but what's with the single top-plate?

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Not sure if this has been mentioned, but what's with the single top-plate?
    Looks like it is non-load bearing.

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  14. #14
    Robert Runchey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    It is a non load bearing wall except I did find one lvl that was joined on top of this wall and sealed with some sort of green glue or caulk. All others were full length. I'll attatch a picture when I get back to the office later tonight.

    Bob


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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    also you should be aware that holes of any size connot be in the ends of lvl's such as the one for the wiring.


  16. #16
    Robert Runchey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Here's a few more pictures from this house. Thanks for all the feedback.

    Bob

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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Robert,

    Not installed per Manufacturers Installation Instructions improper hanger in pic 1 ( No Blocking.)

    Pic 4 shows load bearing framing member improperly installed ( must be Under the I beam not supported by just the top lip.

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  18. #18
    Robert Runchey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Billy,
    The pdf you attached is very detailed and most helpful. Appreciate the info!

    Bob Runchey


  19. #19
    Brad Peterson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    The I-joist that the LVL is hanger to maybe adequate being that close to a bearing wall. The joist lacks wed fillers at LVL junction. You might get a copy of the TJI or proper joist installation literature, this form shows most of the typical junction details.


  20. #20
    Richard Pultar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    the installation is correct... top flange mounted hangers do not always require blocking behind the hanger.. With top flange hangers, backer block required only for downward loads exceeding 250 lbs. or for uplift conditions. Detail H2 of TJI specs.
    The header could have been a piece of floor truss and almost any boring would be ok .So the LVL with that little hole from that conductor is no issue. The framer just avioded the need to put backer block on both sides of a tji joist had he used one.
    The job looks well done .
    A single plate is also a non issue if done correctly.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pultar View Post
    .
    the installation is correct
    ... .
    .

    Not According to The Manufactures Installation Instructions.
    *
    unless Not installed to the Manufactures Installation Instructions is correct.
    .


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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pultar View Post
    the installation is correct... top flange mounted hangers do not always require blocking behind the hanger.. With top flange hangers, backer block required only for downward loads exceeding 250 lbs. or for uplift conditions. Detail H2 of TJI specs.

    I've looked at the following:

    American Forest & Paper Association's Guideline Wood I-Joists, ASD (Allowable Stress Design) Manual for Engineered Wood Construction

    APA's I-Joist Construction Details

    TrusJoist (Weyerhaeuser) Framer's Pocket Guide to the FrameWorks Building System, and specifically Detail H2

    And NONE of them say you do not have to use backer blocking for top hung hangers. One of them does say you only need to block the hanger side under a specific condition (otherwise both sides, the hanger side and the back side need to have backer blocking installed).

    Thus ... THAT IS NOT a correct installation.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 12-01-2008 at 07:36 PM. Reason: speelin'
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  23. #23
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    I took a class that stated the same thing. Blocks on both sides.


  24. #24
    Richard Pultar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    See

    HangersHangers used with I-Joists and SCL
    http://www.ilevel.com/literature/TB-106.pdf


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pultar View Post
    See

    HangersHangers used with I-Joists and SCL
    http://www.ilevel.com/literature/TB-106.pdf
    .
    And Where in This "Bulletin" May I find Sketches of This Is Correct?
    .


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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    I just installed some LPI20Plus manufactured I joists on my project. Instructions said no web stiffeners needed if using the top mounted hanging bracket that I installed.

    http://www.lpcorp.com/Literature/LP_...l_Brochure.pdf

    It's on page 17, but you have to read the fine print. The ones marked with the asterisk require web stiffeners, and the ones not marked do not. Some require it, most top mounts do not.

    So, I guess it depends on the brand of hanger and the brand of I joist.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    It's in the install guide not the pocket guide. If inspecting don't even do it without the installation plan. It is too confusing , since there are differences between mfg's.
    If you want to really do the the install correctly the trusses should come with their own plans. The plan will have some mistakes so the best is to ask the area rep from the brand of truss you are using what material can be substituted.
    .
    There are web stiffeners, blocking panels,post continuations, squash blocks all with different requirements that mostly are based on loads and spans and the depth of the truss and series of truss. What I see a lot is that framers put a lot of effort into doing stuff that's not required. Quite a few jobs look like the guys think these trusses are a direct substitute for solid lumber and ignore that half inch OSB is.where 2x lumber would normally be.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pultar View Post


    It's in the install guide not the pocket guide.

    .
    .
    "Installation is Correct"
    and these are in the Install Guide.
    .
    *we looking at the same Photos ?
    .

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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pultar View Post
    See

    HangersHangers used with I-Joists and SCL
    http://www.ilevel.com/literature/TB-106.pdf
    Richard,

    Thank you.

    Yes, that does state "With top flange hangers, backer blocks are not required for downward loads of 250 lbs or less (factored resistance of 395 lbs for Canadian Limit States Design)."

    And that reference is newer than the others I have - that is dated July 2008, so that indicates a new revision.

    That Technical Bulletin also includes some other interesting information, information which would make me reluctant to assert that statement (that no blocking is required) without knowing the other information.

    ~~~~~~~~~~
    The criteria to be met by all potential hanger suppliers prior to their products becoming approved are summarized below. Additionally, iLevel continues to work closely with approved suppliers in the development of new connectors and the enhancement and refinement of existing connectors.

    Approved Hanger Supplier Criteria for Use with iLevel® Trus Joist® Products
    The criteria focus on the following:
    1. Code acceptance
    2. Appropriate engineering and product application
    3. Technical support provided by the hanger supplier
    4. Appropriate quality assurance and independent third-party inspection
    5. Ability of the supplier to provide a proper level of service
    6. The supplier's willingness to work with iLevel on the enhancement of existing connectors or the development of new ones as needed

    Approved Joist Hanger Suppliers
    Three joist hanger manufacturers are currently approved to provide joist hangers and other connectors for use with iLevel® Trus Joist® products:
    Simpson Strong-Tie® Company, Inc.

    5956 W. Las Positas Boulevard
    Pleasanton, CA 94588
    (800) 925-5099
    Simpson Strong-Tie® connectors are approved for use in the U.S., Canada, Japan, Australia and Europe.
    United Steel Products (USP) Structural Connectors®

    14305 South Cross Drive – Suite 200
    Burnsville, MN
    (800) 328-5934
    USP Structural Connectors® connectors are approved for use in the U.S. and Canada.
    Cullen Building Products, Ltd.

    170 Savannah Oaks Drive
    Brantford, ON, Canada
    (866) 867-8867

    In some cases, not all connectors manufactured by an approved supplier are approved for use with iLevel products. To determine if a particular connector is approved, please consult any of the following sources:
    • iLevel literature for Trus Joist Products
    • Literature produced by the approved supplier specifically listing the use of its products with Trus Joist® products
    • iLevel Structural Frame Software, such as TJ-Beam® or TJ-Xpert®
    • Contact your local iLevel representative.

    Minimum Metal Thickness
    It is highly recommended that hangers be comprised of no lighter than 18 gauge steel. Lighter gauge hangers lack sufficient strength and rigidity to provide adequate support, including lateral stability. Hangers that are 18 ga are limited to 1,475 lbs and hangers made with 16 ga are limited to 1,575 lbs (2,415 lbs and 2,655 lbs Canadian Limit State Design - LSD).
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Also, in those photos, one strap is top flange type but is installed upside down to the bottom flange, and another photos shows a strap bent in to the web and nailed there, instead of continuing straight down, deflections of greater than 1/8" indicates the strap fails, and, with an initial deflection of greater than 1/8", when the strap pulls straight - it will have failed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  30. #30
    Chuck Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Robert,

    Did you have the client get a copy of the city stamped architect blue prints? I would look a what the design installation requirements are.


  31. #31
    Christopher Gorton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Bob, your 4th picture that Billy had commented on not allowing support under the web there. The lower part of the I joist, did they notch out the vertical 2x4 piece or the lower part of the I joist to get it in there?


  32. #32
    Robert Runchey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Christopher,
    The 2x4 in pic 4 is not really doing anything and I'm sure why it even there except maybe to frame in a closet. Looks like the I joists were just dropped on top of the wall and sealed but there should have been overhang and not just butted together.

    Thank you for the comments.

    Bob Runchey
    AHI
    Madison, Wi.


  33. #33
    Christopher Gorton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Not sure what you mean by overhang, that would apply only if you had a bearing wall underneath, ie double top plate and concrete footing under the wall to support the floor load with more than just 4 inches of concrete slab.
    It appears that the I joists are butted together over an interior framing wall and just caulked to hide the joint. An acceptable fix may be to install a laminated header perpendicular to that joint and use joist hangers as your other picture shows, only properly with squash blocking on both sides.
    It also depends on what the floor load is above that joint as it is likely somewhere close to mid span of the I joists. Bathtub above or second floor/roof load?
    It would also be a problem if the lower 1x3 of the I joist was cut in any way to make that 2x4 fit.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    What can it have hurt to put the backer blocks on either side of the hanger with nails driven through and clinched? That is what I would have expected to see. If it is a new house (i.e. builder still has the responsibility) I would insist that the building superintendent address the issue and produce sufficient documentation for the buyer's satisfaction that this is a correct installation.


  35. #35
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Robinson View Post
    I just installed some LPI20Plus manufactured I joists on my project. Instructions said no web stiffeners needed if using the top mounted hanging bracket that I installed.

    http://www.lpcorp.com/Literature/LP_...l_Brochure.pdf

    It's on page 17, but you have to read the fine print. The ones marked with the asterisk require web stiffeners, and the ones not marked do not. Some require it, most top mounts do not.

    So, I guess it depends on the brand of hanger and the brand of I joist.
    Jim,

    GENERAL NOTES:
    * Web fillers required for proper
    installation of hanger. Refer to the
    Engineered Wood Product Guide for
    filler sizes.
    ** Hanger is less than 60% of joist
    depth. Additional rotation resistance
    is required. Refer to the appropriate
    hanger manufacturer’s catalog for details

    Did you get the info from the hanger mfg's? I do not see anything that stipulates no backers or fillers. Please help me on this.
    Thanks,
    Barry


  36. #36
    Mike Truss Guy's Avatar
    Mike Truss Guy Guest

    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Runchey View Post
    I looked at this one yesterday and wanted to get feedback from the group. One floor joist is attached to the two adjacent joists by way of hangers. Is this acceptable?
    I did not read everyone's post, but the photo shows a wood I-Joist that appears to be installed upside-down. Most manufactured wood products are clearly marked with a TOP arrow. This goes for Gluelams, I-joists, metal plate connected trusses...

    Unlike steel wood has highly directional properties. Sometimes you put the stronger wood on the tension side of the beam. Also some products are built with chamber or "crown" so that under load they deflect and make the floor flat. If you install them upside down they will sag in the middle of the span.


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Is this floor joist right?

    robert

    call the city--was there a permit pulled for this job if it was a add on and if yes--did it pass final--every city and muni does there own thing---hang the city dude
    charlie


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