Results 1 to 29 of 29

Thread: Roof Structure

  1. #1
    Reggie Russell's Avatar
    Reggie Russell Guest

    Default Roof Structure

    Hey Guys,

    I am a new inspector who just completed my first HI today. It was a beautiful 2 story home that is only 5 years old. What I am concerned about is a few things I saw in the attic and was wondering if I could get some clarification on because I just couldn't believe what I saw. The first 3 pics are what look like poor workmanship on the struts? The next 2vis what looks like the bathroom vents terminating in the attic? This home looked pretty solid everywhere else it just really shocked me to find these things in the attic. Am I over reacting guys or is this something I should write up? Thanks for all the help you guys give!

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    2018 ASHI InspectionWorld

  2. #2
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie Russell View Post
    Hey Guys,

    I am a new inspector who just completed my first HI today. It was a beautiful 2 story home that is only 5 years old. What I am concerned about is a few things I saw in the attic and was wondering if I could get some clarification on because I just couldn't believe what I saw. The first 3 pics are what look like poor workmanship on the struts? The next 2vis what looks like the bathroom vents terminating in the attic? This home looked pretty solid everywhere else it just really shocked me to find these things in the attic. Am I over reacting guys or is this something I should write up? Thanks for all the help you guys give!
    RR: The roof braces are installed by Juan and Jose and their Flying Monkey Circus. Poor workmanship. Suggest improvement by skilled carpenter, preferably not employed by the home's builder.

    The bathroom exhust vent ducts were installed by their cousins Raul and Tito. Code violation. Must be terminated at the exterior of the building in damapered hoods.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Rockwall Texas
    Posts
    4,519

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    I'll agree with A-Man on this one. Poor craftmanship all the way.

    Of course those guys were probably in a hurry after eating those burritos off Rosie's Roach Coach.

    Seriously Reggie, yeah you need to write them up. Remember, if it looks wrong it probably always is.

    rick


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    RR: The roof braces are installed by Juan and Jose and their Flying Monkey Circus. Poor workmanship. Suggest improvement by skilled carpenter, preferably not employed by the home's builder.

    Aaron,

    Being as Reggie is in Alabamer, it is quite possible that it was not Juan and Julio's crew, which consists of Jose and Jorge, but that it twere Bubba and Billy Bob's HaveAnotherBeer Brothers "This is as good as it gets." crew.

    Sometimes Juan, Julio, and Jose do purty good work compared ta some folks' work.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie Russell View Post
    Hey Guys,

    I am a new inspector who just completed my first HI today. It was a beautiful 2 story home that is only 5 years old. What I am concerned about is a few things I saw in the attic and was wondering if I could get some clarification on because I just couldn't believe what I saw. The first 3 pics are what look like poor workmanship on the struts? The next 2vis what looks like the bathroom vents terminating in the attic? This home looked pretty solid everywhere else it just really shocked me to find these things in the attic. Am I over reacting guys or is this something I should write up? Thanks for all the help you guys give!

    Adding to what was already said. Did you check to see if that PVC vent pipe pitched up to the Y connection at the other vent pipe. Many times they are level and they do sag slightly. Over a short period of time it fills with water and sags more and no longer acts as a vent. After a longer period of time the pipe becomes brittle and snaps off causing damage to the ceiling and emptying the water on to the ceiling.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    To add to what Ted said:

    That horizontal vent should be secured and supported at maximum 4 foot intervals.

    That flexible duct should be supported within 18" of the collar at the main trunk line.

    That flexible duct should be supported not more than every 5 feet with not more than 1/2" sag per foot between supports (i.e., 2-1/2" sag maximum for maximum 5 foot span between supports).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Rockwall Texas
    Posts
    4,519

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Dont' see any baffles either. That insulation is probably blown into the soffit over the vents obstructing any ventilation.

    Its looks like it going to be a tear down job.

    rick


  8. #8
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    To add to what Ted said:

    That horizontal vent should be secured and supported at maximum 4 foot intervals.

    That flexible duct should be supported within 18" of the collar at the main trunk line.

    That flexible duct should be supported not more than every 5 feet with not more than 1/2" sag per foot between supports (i.e., 2-1/2" sag maximum for maximum 5 foot span between supports).

    Thanks

    I was going to get into all that but as usual I am doing other things while answering threads.

    Yeah, what Jerry said.


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    745

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Ugly?? Yes
    Wrong? Hard to tell.
    Structurally sound? Looks to be okay.

    On the vents, quite a few AHJ's allowed vent fan ducts to terminate in the attic like that. It was determined that the attic was considered to be vented to the outside. Outside what? The bathroom/utility?

    Anyway the new 2006 IRC cleared that all up now so it is specific on the language. To the exterior. 5 years ago....probably to code. Now...nope!


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    Anyway the new 2006 IRC cleared that all up now so it is specific on the language. To the exterior. 5 years ago....probably to code.

    From the home inspectors point of view, whether something bad was once allowed is not their concern ...

    Now...nope!
    ... the simple fact that it is now recognized as being bad enough that the code language was changed so specifically prohibit it to end any confusion means - 'it is a bad thing and should not have been done, thus it needs to be corrected'.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
    Reggie Russell's Avatar
    Reggie Russell Guest

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Thanks guys! you just reaffirmed what I was thinking. It was just kind of like disbelief that a new house would be done like that. I guess I am showing my newness to the industry, though.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie Russell View Post
    Thanks guys! you just reaffirmed what I was thinking. It was just kind of like disbelief that a new house would be done like that. I guess I am showing my newness to the industry, though.
    Bath fans that not only don't vent to the outside, but that don't even have any duct on them and are covered with insulation are pretty common around here. I saw one just yesterday in a 30 year old house built by a national builder.

    Last edited by John Arnold; 04-17-2009 at 05:27 PM. Reason: lousy writing
    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie Russell View Post
    It was just kind of like disbelief that a new house would be done like that.

    Reggie,

    You want disbelief, try this one:

    This afternoon I received a call from a home owner in PA about their 5 year old home with the ceiling and roof sagging ... get this ... 5 inches.

    They had reported it to the builder within the one year warranty and the builder sent someone out and, well, it was not so bad 5 years ago, so they said all was fine and hunky-dory.

    Move forward to recently when the builder finally had the truss company come out to address why the sagging is going on.

    First, let's back up a bit, this is no ordinary rectangular box, it is a split level with a recessed front porch with the trusses cantilevered out over the front porch, like we see day in and day out.

    Okay, let's go forward again, the truss company's engineer said ... yep, believe it or not the trusses were installed backward.

    Quick thinking on my part put NO BEARING over the living room wall and with the BEARING point of the trusses cantilevered out over the front porch ... AND the BEARING which was supposed to be over the front wall is now about 8 feet in from the rear wall, with that end of the trusses which was bearing on the rear wall was the end INTENDED TO BE cantilevered out.

    We discussed some possible solutions and other options, but, as I told her, "To be blunt - someone screwed up big time."



    Guys, when you are going through attics, if you are not already doing so, look for the likely bearing locations of the truss in relation to the walls below ... it is not common, but I have found trusses either designed wrong, the wall had been moved, or the wrong trusses in the wrong location before, but nothing like this lady described her house.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    Ugly?? Yes
    Wrong? Hard to tell.
    Structurally sound? Looks to be okay.

    On the vents, quite a few AHJ's allowed vent fan ducts to terminate in the attic like that. It was determined that the attic was considered to be vented to the outside. Outside what? The bathroom/utility?

    Anyway the new 2006 IRC cleared that all up now so it is specific on the language. To the exterior. 5 years ago....probably to code. Now...nope!
    Wayne: The 2006 IRC should have cleared up the fan duct situation, bu has not around these parts. The local Ass-Honking-Jeniuses still permit them to be terminated in the soffit. The soffit is a part of the attic. It is also the intake portion of the attic ventilation process, unless of course heat no longer rises.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,797

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    I reference this in reports:



    - Problem Free Flex Duct Installation

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Michael,

    Curious where you got that drawing.

    It has some incorrect information in it is why I am wondering.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 04-19-2009 at 09:22 AM. Reason: speelin "I" should have been "It"
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,446

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Jerry,
    It's funny that you should mention that. I was looking at a new house years ago, that had a wide front porch. When I went into the attic, SOME of the trusses had a vertical member over the front wall of the house (bearing point), but some of them did not. When I looked at the trusses in the rear of the house, there was the bearing point.

    To be honest, I probably didn't pay all that much attention to bearing points before that day. I sure do now.
    Sometimes we don't see the forest for the trees.


  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Jack,

    Yes, we all learn from our mistakes, that's if we are paying attention.

    I first noticed one maybe 18-20 years ago with the bearing about a foot off the rear porch wall, and the next truss over about a foot off that same wall, but one inside the wall and one outside the wall. At first I was stumped, then realized that the two trusses were probably accidentally swapped during truss setting.

    Engineer came out and designed a fix for both and it was no big deal (the fix was no big deal).

    In your case, the trusses installed correctly were probably taking up the load for the trusses installed incorrect, so there may not have been much sag, but those trusses are now overloaded and that much closer to failure.

    Being from where we used trusses and very little conventional framing, I learned early on to look for truss bearing points and what they are bearing on or should be bearing on - I have found many - MANY - which were off the bearing entirely, someone probably decided to 'move the wall' 'just a little' without thinking what that would do to the truss bearing points (and the trusses were already designed and already built, sometimes already laying on the job site).

    I learn a lot from the posts on conventional framing as I never did or saw much of it, mostly all trusses.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #19
    Mike Truss Guy's Avatar
    Mike Truss Guy Guest

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie Russell View Post
    Hey Guys,

    I am a new inspector who just completed my first HI today. It was a beautiful 2 story home that is only 5 years old. What I am concerned about is a few things I saw in the attic and was wondering if I could get some clarification on because I just couldn't believe what I saw. The first 3 pics are what look like poor workmanship on the struts? The next 2vis what looks like the bathroom vents terminating in the attic? This home looked pretty solid everywhere else it just really shocked me to find these things in the attic. Am I over reacting guys or is this something I should write up? Thanks for all the help you guys give!
    You've heard of "creative writing"? That is what's known as "creative framing". I can't completely tell what is happening at the hip intersection, but I question the need for a strut at all. It might just be a temporary support that got left in place.


  20. #20
    Inspector 3500's Avatar
    Inspector 3500 Guest

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    In the 3rd picture, looks like the roof decking has a notch cut into it and is missing a strip causing that section to not be supported.


  21. #21
    Reggie Russell's Avatar
    Reggie Russell Guest

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Thanks again guys for all the responses. I have and continue to learn mounds of info from you all. I got a call from the owner of the house today wanting clarification of these findings. No confrontation, he was real nice about everything, but it got me thinking about the possibility of being asked to re-inspect the attic or possibly other areas of the house after the corrective work is done. What do you guys do when this happens? How much do you charge for something like that?


  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    745

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Wayne: The 2006 IRC should have cleared up the fan duct situation, bu has not around these parts. The local Ass-Honking-Jeniuses still permit them to be terminated in the soffit. The soffit is a part of the attic. It is also the intake portion of the attic ventilation process, unless of course heat no longer rises.
    If they are under the 2006 not much room to misinterprete this one!

    SECTION M1501
    GENERAL
    M1501.1 Outdoor discharge.
    The air removed by every mechanical exhaust system shall be discharged to the outdoors. Air shall not be exhausted into an attic, soffit, ridge vent or crawl space.

    Exception:
    Whole-house ventilation-type attic fans that discharge into the attic space of dwelling units having private attics shall be permitted.




  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    1,078

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie Russell View Post
    ...it got me thinking about the possibility of being asked to re-inspect the attic or possibly other areas of the house after the corrective work is done. What do you guys do when this happens? How much do you charge for something like that?
    There are basically 2 schools of thought regarding Re-inspection.

    1)Last one in owns the problem. Since you approved the repairs, if something goes wrong in the future, you will be on the hook to fix it.

    2) It is no different from anything else I inspect. It is good business to keep my customer happy.

    This has been discussed many times before and quickly degrades into the two sides agreeing to disagree. Search the archives. Let's NOT go through this all over again please.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Greenville, N.C.
    Posts
    254

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Beyond catching the bad workmanship of the framers, catch your bad language too. Struts? Stiff knees maybe, ridge supports, but be a stickler for proper terminology. Struts work in cars. It's like sills being called out when the component is a band joist or rim.

    JLMathis


  25. #25
    Bob White's Avatar
    Bob White Guest

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Michael,

    Curious where you got that drawing.

    It has some incorrect information in it is why I am wondering.
    Not Michael, but it looks like the info is from "Sheet Metal and Air Conditioning Contractors' National Association's (SMACNA's) 1995 HVAC Duct Construction Standards (metal and flexible). For information about the association, or its standards, contact SMACNA at 4201 Lafayette Center Dr., Chantilly, VA 20151-1209, or call 703/803-2980"


  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob White View Post
    Not Michael, but it looks like the info is from "Sheet Metal and Air Conditioning Contractors' National Association's (SMACNA's) 1995 HVAC Duct Construction Standards (metal and flexible). For information about the association, or its standards, contact SMACNA at 4201 Lafayette Center Dr., Chantilly, VA 20151-1209, or call 703/803-2980"
    Bob,

    I was curious because it shows a minimum strap width of 1" and the minimum strap width is 1-1/2" according to the ADC (Air Diffusion Council) and their installation instructions for flexible duct.

    ( http://www.flexibleduct.org/download/ADC~Inst.pdf ) Scroll down to 4.8 Supporting Flexible Duct, on page 7 of 8 (labeled page 18 of full document), see Figures 11 & 12 and the text above them.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,797

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Michael,

    Curious where you got that drawing.

    It has some incorrect information in it is why I am wondering.
    Follow the link below the drawing.

    ------------

    Thanks for that ADC link - I actually already had a copy archived on my computers, but had forgotten about it.

    Last edited by Michael Thomas; 04-21-2009 at 12:29 PM.
    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Follow the link below the drawing.

    (slaps forehead) Well ... Duh!

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fuquay Varina, NC
    Posts
    1,072

    Default Re: Roof Structure

    Those pictures look like crap because they left there temporary hip and ridge support in place. You can remove it and it will look allot better but why.........

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
    www.houseinspections.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •