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  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Framing question

    This house was built in the late 50's. There was a new roof installed over the old cedar shingle (agent said they do it all the time). I was questioning the roof framing, JDLR! Take a look they notched the purlins.

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  2. #2
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    Pretty typical. Perlin and perlin support. Collar ties.

    As far as a roof over wood shingles. You mean like not full sheathing. No removal of the wood shingles and application of composite shingles over wood shingles.

    If that is the case it is never all right to do that. The new shingles just nail into the old wood shingles. That is your clients biggest worry and expence. The removal of both layers of shingles and adding full OSB over the skip sheathing and re roofing will cost multiple thousands. One wind storm and the roof over is gone. The insurance company will more than likely never cover it.


  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Framing question

    The purlin notching is OK; the rest of what I see can only be described as "target rich."
    Under insulated attic, water staining, undersized ridge beam, purlin supports appear to exceed 45 degree slope, opening adjacent fireplace chimney, and lack of adequate nailing at collar ties.
    Itís OK to roof over wood shingles but not shakes. Check with your local AHJ.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  4. #4
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    This house was built in the late 50's. There was a new roof installed over the old cedar shingle (agent said they do it all the time). I was questioning the roof framing, JDLR! Take a look they notched the purlins.
    MS: The notches are in the tops of the purlin praces; not in the purlins themselves. That is at least one acceptable way to attach the braces to the purlins.

    JM: that is a ridge board and not a ridge beam.

    TM: Composition shingles can indeed be applied over wood shingles, unless of course prohibited by the municipality. From GAF:

    Re-Roofing
    If old asphalt shingles are to remain in place, nail down or cut away all loose, curled or lifted shingles; replace with new; and just before applying the new roofing, sweep the surface clean of all loose debris. Since any irregularities may show through the new shingles, be sure the underlying
    shingles provide a smooth surface. Fasteners must be of sufficient length to penetrate the wood deck at least 3/4" (19mm) or just through plywood. Follow other above instructions for application.


    Note
    : Shingles can be applied over wood shingles when precautions have been taken to provide an acceptable smooth surface. This includes cutting back old shingles at eaves and rakes and installing new wood edging strips as needed. Make surface smooth and use beveled wood strips if necessary. Install #30 underlayment to maintain Class A rating.




  5. #5
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    Geeeessssssssss

    There we go with the code again. No, it is not alright to put composite shingles over wood shingles of any type.

    One may say it is in specs but the reality is it is about the dumbest thing you could do. Adding a layer on top of old wood, dried out, split shingles is not go to hold anything in a wind storm.

    There may be things that are excepted by specs and code but intelligent breathing human beings will never accept it as alright.

    Some things are just cheap and shoddy workmanship. I for one have never seen a composite over wood shingle job that was good for anything and my belief is it should not be done.

    Once a few of those shingles get caught by wind you just lost an entire section of shingles.

    Lets mention the cost that the owner just put on someone else as far as roofing again in the future when the new owner starts having problems with that shingle job. The cost for removal of the composite and wood shingles and then sheathing the entire roof and then applying new shingles is tremendous.

    Like I said it is never a good idea to shingle over wood shingles. After all are you not inspecting the home for the sake of your client and bringing to their attention the down falls of the home they are considering buying. Is it not the fact that you are there to give your clients the heads up on now and near future outlay of money. I am not talking specs here I am talking reality. It is stupid to put composite over wood shingles. The only reason it is ever done is to save money on removal of the wood shingles and sheathing the entire roof. The near future outcome is never pretty.

    Also I will check the insurance thing. I know there have been a couple companies that specifically wanted to know of composite over wood.

    Folks....You are working as a home inspector and selling your client an inspection report on that home detailing concerns and immediate and near future outlay of money. Why anyone would state it is alright to do such to their client is beyond me. The AHJ will probably say it is ok???????

    So what. The AHJ is not going to have to absorb the cost of reroofing that home...........That is the kind of thing you are suppose to relay to your clients....Not that it is OK with the AHJ.

    Gees

    Coffe is finally kicking in.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Its common to see a ridge board of this size in homes from the 50's and earlier at least in my area. Is it a concern? No not in my opinion and certainly is not a deal blower in anyway, I wouldn't even call it out.


  7. #7
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Its common to see a ridge board of this size in homes from the 50's and earlier at least in my area. Is it a concern? No not in my opinion and certainly is not a deal blower in anyway, I wouldn't even call it out.
    RW: It is not even required.


  8. #8
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    TM: I never said that this sort of installation made sense, that I would installa shingles in this manner, or anything about the code. I simply said that the manufacutrers allow it.

    Take another puff. Chill.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Good morning AD

    Yes have seen many older homes without ridge board.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Note
    : Shingles can be applied over wood shingles when precautions have been taken to provide an acceptable smooth surface. This includes cutting back old shingles at eaves and rakes and installing new wood edging strips as needed. Make surface smooth and use beveled wood strips if necessary. Install #30 underlayment to maintain Class A rating.
    The code may "allow" that, but if you have read what is required you will see that "practical installation" does not allow that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The code may "allow" that, but if you have read what is required you will see that "practical installation" does not allow that.
    JP: Who is talking "practical"? This is from the shingle manufacturer. Perhaps even the same one upon whom we are patiently (or not) waiting for yet another "practical" opinion on another thread.


  12. #12
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    It appears they installed a new layer of roof decking. A new drip edge was installed and I tried to see if there was new decking when I was in the attic. I dug there the old cedar shingles but could not tell. Judging form the stiffness of the roof surface while walking the roof it appears they did install decking. But I could not be 100 percent sure. But we have all felt asphalt directly over cedar and it didn't feel like that.


  13. #13
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Re-Roofing
    If old asphalt shingles are to remain in place, nail down or cut away all loose, curled or lifted shingles; replace with new; and just before applying the new roofing, sweep the surface clean of all loose debris. Since any irregularities may show through the new shingles, be sure the underlying
    shingles provide a smooth surface. Fasteners must be of sufficient length to penetrate the wood deck at least 3/4" (19mm) or just through plywood. Follow other above instructions for application.


    They may allow placing asphalt shingles over wood shingles, but read the bit from Aaron's posted information about the fasteners having to penetrate the wood deck 3/4 inch or go through the plywood. Thus the vast majority of wood shingle roofs would have to be torn off and decked to comply with their instructions since skip sheathing (lath) is not an appropriate nailing surface.
    Might be different in other part of the country where shingles are installed on solid decking, but I have yet to see on in my part of the world.

    Also of note is the vast majority of insurance companies will not write coverage for asphalt over wood shingle roofs. The few who will cover charge substantial penalties both in rates and increased deductible, about twice the normal on both if I remember correctly.





    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Note
    : Shingles can be applied over wood shingles when precautions have been taken to provide an acceptable smooth surface. This includes cutting back old shingles at eaves and rakes and installing new wood edging strips as needed. Make surface smooth and use beveled wood strips if necessary. Install #30 underlayment to maintain Class A rating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    They may allow placing asphalt shingles over wood shingles, but read the bit from Aaron's posted information about the fasteners having to penetrate the wood deck 3/4 inch or go through the plywood.
    Jim,

    I was pointing the entire thing out - the first part which you quoted and the second part which I quoted (which I am breaking each section out separately below):

    Note:
    1) - Shingles can be applied over wood shingles when precautions have been taken to provide an acceptable smooth surface.
    2) - This includes cutting back old shingles at eaves and rakes and installing new wood edging strips as needed.
    3) - Make surface smooth and use beveled wood strips if necessary.
    4) - Install #30 underlayment to maintain Class A rating.

    Item 1) simply says you can do it, while items 2) and 3) make it almost impossible to do when you read 2) and then really read 3).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  15. #15
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post

    They may allow placing asphalt shingles over wood shingles, but read the bit from Aaron's posted information about the fasteners having to penetrate the wood deck 3/4 inch or go through the plywood. Thus the vast majority of wood shingle roofs would have to be torn off and decked to comply with their instructions since skip sheathing (lath) is not an appropriate nailing surface.
    Might be different in other part of the country where shingles are installed on solid decking, but I have yet to see on in my part of the world.

    Also of note is the vast majority of insurance companies will not write coverage for asphalt over wood shingle roofs. The few who will cover charge substantial penalties both in rates and increased deductible, about twice the normal on both if I remember correctly.



    Thank you very much. I know it was early this morning babbling about roof shingles but I knew I was not having brain gas about insurance companies. It was just to early to recall the last instance where an insurance company said


    Ahhhhhhhh. Nope. Not us. No way in hellacious. Aint gonna insure that there cotton pickin house with that there funky roof system.


  16. #16
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    It appears they installed a new layer of roof decking. A new drip edge was installed and I tried to see if there was new decking when I was in the attic. I dug there the old cedar shingles but could not tell. Judging form the stiffness of the roof surface while walking the roof it appears they did install decking. But I could not be 100 percent sure. But we have all felt asphalt directly over cedar and it didn't feel like that.
    I still see a few asphalt over cedar shingle roofs, but never with new sheathing, that's just plain unbelievable. They often trim back the lower edge of the wood shingles at the eaves, where the butts are all rotten. Then they lay a 1 X 6 along the eaves. This gives the edge a new look and can fool you into thinking there's nada underneath. The whole reason for doing it is to save the cost of solid sheathing.


  17. #17
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    House I did a while back. Not very pretty but the shingle roof was about 20 years old so it did survive a bad install.

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  18. #18
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    Sometime back I had a very nice home with an addition to the back. The contractor install the new roof and valleys onto the existing fungus infected wood shingle covered roof. and then install a new composition roof over the old wood shingle. So we now need to take the complete roof and all the new framing down just to get to the fungus infected shingles. Buyer backs out and the seller is just flat piss off. That was the last call i ever got from that agent... Dang it.

    Shot the messenger...

    Best

    Ron


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