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  1. #1
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    Default BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    HEY ALL

    i know this has come up before, but can't find it in archives. i find this alot in colorado when a new roof is installed. they forget all about the bathroom exhaust fans to the exterior. is this up to code. roof was permitted and finaled. so i ASSUME it is good

    thanks

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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Assuming that it is good could get you into trouble when it is not good.

    The exhaust from bath fans is required to be exhausted to the outdoors such that it cannot readily re-enter the structure, and the exhaust in your photo will be exhausting back into the structure - into the attic - and getting some of it to the outdoors would be a matter of luck.

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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    THANKS JP

    thats what i thought. you see alot of this shortcutting in new roof install in CO. but again it had final inspection cleared by the city. so what can i say

    thanks

    charlie


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    but again it had final inspection cleared by the city. so what can i say

    That it is wrong.

    Just because a municipal code inspector signs off on a final inspection does not mean "everything" is done correctly, only that "what the inspector looked at" was not noticed to be wrong enough to not pass (which is not even the same as saying it was not wrong, much less saying that it was right).

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  5. #5

    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    That installation is standard practice in this area. As long as the exhaust ducts are pushed up to the vent, I don't call it.

    I'm curious as to what other inspectors do in this scenario-- anybody.


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    That installation is standard practice in this area. As long as the exhaust ducts are pushed up to the vent, I don't call it.
    You should call it out.

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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    That installation is standard practice in this area. As long as the exhaust ducts are pushed up to the vent, I don't call it.

    I'm curious as to what other inspectors do in this scenario-- anybody.
    What's the downside of calling it? It's not as if your report or opinion is binding on anyone. Wrong is wrong.

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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    That installation is standard practice in this area. As long as the exhaust ducts are pushed up to the vent, I don't call it.

    I'm curious as to what other inspectors do in this scenario-- anybody.
    When I saw the picture I thought the same.
    I figured if its to daylight, it was OK.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    In Vancouver, it is the standard practice to wrap the metal ducts with insulation material to prevent condensation water drip down to the ceiling fan in winter time.


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harris View Post
    I figured if its to daylight, it was OK.

    Dan,

    It needs to go to more than daylight.

    It needs to directly to the outdoors without any of it going into the attic. As shown in that photo, it actually goes into the attic, with some maybe actually getting out to outdoors.

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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    i find this alot in colorado when a new roof is installed. they forget all about the bathroom exhaust fans to the exterior. is this up to code. roof was permitted and finaled. so i ASSUME it is good
    Like Jerry said it is wrong. It was wrong before the reroof.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Leung View Post
    In Vancouver, it is the standard practice to wrap the metal ducts with insulation material to prevent condensation water drip down to the ceiling fan in winter time.
    Daniel is correct. The ducts should be insulated so moisture in the exhaust does not condense and drain down causing damage to the structure. This is especially important in cold climates (like Colorado).

    I see very, very few done correctly (i.e., ducts discharge to outside AND insulated) even on new construction. I report them and note the consequenses if not corrected (condensation in attic leading to mold or damage to structure or interior).

    Wrong is wrong. It is your job to report stuff like this. If the client wants to ignore your advice so be it.

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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It needs go to directly to the outdoors without any of it going into the attic. As shown in that photo, it actually goes into the attic, with some maybe actually getting out to outdoors.
    Yes. Some attics can't tolerate even a minor leak, such as in this pic.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    There goes the code tunnel vision crowd with a limited vision of what home inspectors should do.

    In my area we see what you show in the pic and have for many years. some times it is a issue. (4 teeage girls with one bath) our code officials have considered the attic air as outside air. with the new code this interpation is no longer allowed. But in as much that a home inspection is a in-service inspection if no issues are present this is the verbage i use

    FYI
    - Bathroom exhaust vent(s) terminate in the attic. Although this is commonly seen and is often done this way, building standards currently recommend extending these to the exterior for reasons such as: helping to lower humidity levels in the building; move condensation outside; reduce the likelihood of mold; etc. A new owner my wish to perform this improvement.



  14. #14
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    Smile Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    I'm curious, did the roofer actually reinstall the vent back "on" the roof or simply block the hole off? That is what i see frequently, they do not, so when an inspector comes if they do have a permit, for a final he only looks at the roof and nothing else.
    It should not take a code to tell you to not vent a bathroom or dryer exhaust fan straight into the attic. Go back a little on this site and read the posts about the importance of attic ventilation and moisture up their. I have seen vent pipes simply laying in the attic and this has to be reported as a correction needed yesterday.
    Just like the two year old house i was called to about no heat, while there the owner asked me about the dryer not drying clothes but the exterior of the cabinet was very hot. This was before I was an inspector. I went outside to investigate the venting to see if it was stopped up but could not find it. When i entered the crawl space i found that the builder had simply ran the vent pipe under the insulation and what a mess and fire hazzard not to mention the mold growing under the house, not a pretty site.


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    There goes the code tunnel vision crowd with a limited vision of what home inspectors should do.

    In my area we see what you show in the pic and have for many years. some times it is a issue. (4 teeage girls with one bath) our code officials have considered the attic air as outside air. with the new code this interpation is no longer allowed. But in as much that a home inspection is a in-service inspection if no issues are present this is the verbage i use

    FYI
    - Bathroom exhaust vent(s) terminate in the attic. Although this is commonly seen and is often done this way, building standards currently recommend extending these to the exterior for reasons such as: helping to lower humidity levels in the building; move condensation outside; reduce the likelihood of mold; etc. A new owner my wish to perform this improvement.
    Who are you trying not to upset with your careful FYI wording?

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  16. #16
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    Lightbulb Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    HEY ALL

    i know this has come up before, but can't find it in archives. i find this alot in colorado when a new roof is installed. they forget all about the bathroom exhaust fans to the exterior. is this up to code. roof was permitted and finaled. so i ASSUME it is good

    thanks
    I would say it is good, but could be better. The fact that the roof is new doesn't have much weight around here. The roofers and the code inspectors don't enter the attics.

    However 75% of the bath fans do not even discharge to a roof vent at all. At least someone here made an effort.

    Quote
    "FYI
    Bathroom exhaust vent(s) terminate in the attic. Although this is commonly seen and is often done this way, building standards currently recommend extending these to the exterior for reasons such as: helping to lower humidity levels in the building; move condensation outside; reduce the likelihood of mold; etc. A new owner my wish to perform this improvement."

    Stacey
    I like this comment except for "the new owner" stuff. That assumes that your client is purchasing the home.

    Instead, why not say
    Although this is commonly seen and is often done this way, I recommend extending these to the exterior for reasons such as: helping to lower humidity levels in the building; move condensation outside; reduce the likelihood of mold; etc.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Charlie,

    Looks like its intended exit/termination is one truss over to the left and on the opposite side of the peak (I think I'm seeing daylight in the pic) Attached is your pic with notation, might be wrong sized opening for the vent octopus. I'm thinking that was intended location (opposite side of the ridge), since where we're seeing this pinned now I see pvc vent behind it, so IF that were the intended termination point above the roof deck, the exhausted water vapor would condense and wash the PVC vent and cause it to freeze over.

    Perhaps something changed since the final for the roof itself (like unsecured it fell from the boot?) or perhaps the roofer "pinned" or hung it being flex one truss over during the roofing activity and "forgot" to re-install it (wouldn't be the first time - ex. unlocked bvent, etc.) or perhaps owner had plans to modify/extend and directed new opening location and wanted to do in separate operation and ventillation work was outside scope of roofing permit? Also wouldn't be the first roofing final inspection that the permit inspector didn't go INTO the attic, most look from outside for the final, heck sometimes they don't even leave the car/truck for a high pitched roof. It also wouldn't be the first time something changed since a permit inspection, as many things do (even five minutes after the inspector leaves the area .

    Realizing after years of drought and arid climate with conistant winds (quick evaporation) and intense sun, may have been "the norm" practice in years past in your area (not venting to outdoors bath fans) do know WDO and mold is a problem when moisture rich evironment.

    It also wouldn't be the first time something changed since the permit inspection, as many things do.

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    HG
    that is just another square roof vent on the other side of ridge. i just sent picture to city inspector and asked .what gives???

    waiting for answer

    thanks

    charlie


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Charlie, I was editing my post when you replied, so I went back and underlined the edits. Take a look about what I said about the proximity to the PVC vent.

    The restrictions caused by the reduction of those vents interconnected need calculation. Were there three bathrooms or some other ventillation exhaust area being combined?

    Whereever the vapor exhaust is terminated, it should NOT be placed so as to "wash" the plumbing (or other) PVC (stack/auxiliary or exhaust) vent as it will be prone to freezing/iceing over if above or too close.


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    HG
    that is just another square roof vent on the other side of ridge. i just sent picture to city inspector and asked .what gives???

    waiting for answer

    thanks

    charlie
    Are you sure it isn't a roof cap/weather hood for the ventillation exhaust??? looks too small an area to be effective for passive attic ventillation!

    See pics below




    and compare to "roof louvers" at this page at airvent's site (I attached some pics below), they can look similar/same at first glance (and sometimes are the very same "hardware" although often minus a screen) esp. if the dampers are back at the fan(s).

    Air Vent: Roof Louvers

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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    I have to say I am stunned that this is actually a debate, that HI on this board are letting this pass and not writing the crap out of it.
    I am more than willing to be reasonable and work with contractors/owners on many issues to resolve and improve conditions.
    This however is an absolute NO. Anything less than a dedicated sealed termination to the exterior is BS. You guys letting this slide should be ashamed of yourselves.
    Will there be a problem, YES.
    Will the problems be significant, hazardous, destructive or cause mold, maybe, maybe not.
    Are you willing to put your client's property at that risk, shame on you.
    The amount of moisture and damage from long hot showers should not be underestimated.

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Mechanical Exhaust is required to be vented to "home's exterior". Dumping into daylight or to the soffit vents at the eave is absolutely wrong.

    Soffit vents in eaves are "air intakes" for adequate/proper attic ventilation.

    I have yet to grasp the concept about how some AHJ's and many other people can accept putting an "exhaust" vent into an "intake" area!!!


  23. #23
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    hg
    that opening is a normal square roof vent, just like the one the flex pipes are vented to,but on the other side of the ridge. i spoke to the city inspector, and as i thought,,what attic- the inspector probable didn't even get on roof . i advised him of the reacurruing exhaust vents being covered over and just dangling in attic after new roof install, and he said,"REALLY WE WILL HAVE TO LOOK INTO THAT,"

    dont ya think a simple visable inspection of house and roof would find exhaust vents or no exhaust vents.from the city inspector---permits and finals are a joke sometimes.

    MARKUS

    cool your jets--i did write it up as i always do--just wanted to know if there is a code---and the city said NO, BUT IS PRACTIBLE.

    i always believe common sense is more reliable then code, and who knows every code in the book

    thanks all for your input

    charlie


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    that would be practical


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    that would be practical
    Charlie,

    You do know you can edit your post, don't you?

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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    I wasn't picking you out Charlie. Posts by others who thought it wasn't a big deal were far more disturbing.

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  27. #27
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Not for nothing but, it looks like crap and I can't believe a contractor installed the vents that way. If this is "common" in new construciton in CO, I am glad I am from PA because that looks like doodoo. First thing I would have said to myself if is, its a home-owner special and it needs to be called, and fixed.

    The entire hose needs to be connected to the hood or cap. Having three vents just stuck up there is a butcher's job.

    I would call it. What's the worst that anyone can say??? Yo uare better off calling it than not. If the steam from the bathroom enters the attic, causes mold, rot, leaks, etc.... and you docoumented it was OK, you may run into trouble.

    If you call it, and nothing happens, they do nothing, o'well.

    Jeff


  28. #28
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    Wink Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    I have yet to see a builder admit eaves (and other non-code conforming practices) venting is wrong/bad/etc.

    To CMA and serve my client I always call it out on reports.

    However, I do one additional thing that none of the above posters has mentioned.

    I tell my client (in private, without any witness) that if they can’t get the builder or the resident owner of a house to correct the problem they should do this until they get around to venting thru the roof or the side wall: HAVE THE VENT TUBE TERMINATE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ATTIC SO THE AIR DOES NOT IMPACT ANYTHING AND WILL BE DILUTED.

    MY RATIONALE: How many times do you drive by a property that your client took possession of a few years ago and still see the exterior defects you called out?!!?

    Builders and sellers just DO NOT FIX THE PROBLEM and your client follows suit. If you really care about your client tell him to pull the vent out from the eaves and prop the end up to dilute in mid-space.

    Last edited by Ken Bates; 01-11-2010 at 02:56 PM. Reason: TYPING AND SYNTAX

  29. #29
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    KB: And you have just continued the same problem. Granted your friendly approach is nice, but it is still "not correct".

    Telling the client to pull the vent pipe to the middle of the attic space will still get written up on the next inspection ... assuming the HI knows/understands the guideline.

    As you tell him (client) to move the pipe ... tell him to properly support it and extend it the static vent exhaust and secure it. THEN ... you will be exhausting to exterior.

    Now there comes a whole different concern as it relates to the power of the fan to actually throw the air to the end of the exhaust pipe that gets extended one heckuva long way.


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    There goes the code tunnel vision crowd with a limited vision of what home inspectors should do.

    You mean you in your supposedly wide angle vision have lost sight of what home inspectors do? Things such as actually inspect for what is not right and report them?

    Sheesh!

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  31. #31

    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Anything less than a dedicated sealed termination to the exterior is BS. You guys letting this slide should be ashamed of yourselves.
    Ashamed of myself? No.
    I do not see this cause a problem in this area. Does anyone else in OR see this cause a problem? (when pushed up into the vent opening).

    I do see a problem when the ducts are just pushed up to eave vents-- I write those up.

    I posted what I did to get a discussion going-- thanks for jumping down my (our) throat . I knew and know exactly what the code says. By the way, the ICC code commentary was not accepted in OR, so the code is up for the AHJ's interpretation.


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Allison View Post
    The entire hose needs to be connected to the hood or cap. Having three vents just stuck up there is a butcher's job.
    Jeff,

    Are you saying the three ducts should be connected to one roof exhaust vent? Or are you saying each duct should be connected to a dedicated roof exhaust vent?

    No more than one duct should be connected to a roof exhaust vent because the exhaust air (and its moisture) from one exhaust fan can flow through the other duct(s) into the other room(s) especially if the roof exhaust vent is restricted (e.g., covered by snow). For the same reason multiple exhaust ducts should not be connected together.

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  33. #33
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bates View Post
    I have yet to see a builder admit eaves (and other non-code conforming practices) venting is wrong/bad/etc.
    Is this an IRC code requirement? If so could you let me know where it is.


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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    I do see a problem when the ducts are just pushed up to eave vents-- I write those up.
    Huh?

    Explain why you think that venting into the attic at the soffit is a problem but that venting into the attic as shown in that photo is not a problem - you have lost me there. When something is venting into the attic ... it does not matter WHERE IN THE ATTIC that venting is taking place.

    There is hope for you as you do acknowledge that doing the same thing in the soffit is not right.

    By the way, the ICC code commentary was not accepted in OR, so the code is up for the AHJ's interpretation.
    Not entirely ...

    I've posted this many times before, but apparently some have missed it before.
    - From the IRC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - - R104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in conformance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.

    If the AHJ is making things up as they go and which are against what is stated in the code, as you are saying the AHJ in your area are doing, then THAT is a violation of the code itself.


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  35. #35
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Vents terminate in a soffits here more often than not. Thermodynamics be damned, it's allowed.

    Some AHJ's are allowing terminations in the attic the are within 30" of so of the ridge vents (tied off at a collar tie for example and "aimed" at the ridge) - at least that (like suggested somewhere above) gets it near the top and an 'exit' where all the air is going anyway... :-(

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  36. #36

    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Explain why you think that venting into the attic at the soffit is a problem but that venting into the attic as shown in that photo is not a problem
    I've got plenty of pictures of fungal growth around eave bays while I don't have any at ridge areas. This only applies when the duct is actually pushed up to the vent. Eave vents are supposed to be intake vents, while ridge area vents are supposed to be exhaust vents. Blowing often warmer exhaust air to a cooler air intake vent is counter productive.

    Last edited by Brandon Whitmore; 01-11-2010 at 08:14 PM.

  37. #37
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    I've got plenty of pictures of fungal growth at eave bays while I don't have any at ridge areas.
    You didn't see the one in post #12 above?

    Eave vents are supposed to be intake vents, while ridge area vents are supposed to be exhaust vents.
    Sort of correct.

    The ridge area *generally is* (but not always) an outlet for air which came in the soffit vents.

    The soffit vents on one side of the house are intake while the soffit vents on the other side are outlets - air actually blows across the attic more than it does up and out the ridge. The ridge vent works best on hot still days where eddy currents can form and the hot air rises. On windy days the air blows through the attic more than up.

    Blowing often warmer exhaust air to a cooler air intake vent is counter productive.
    I'm not following you there. Blowing 75 degree air from the bathroom exhaust into an attic soffit vent which is likely at 90 degrees to over 120 degrees is definitely not blowing warmer air into a cooler air intake???

    During winter maybe, but there are more places with a longer summer than with a longer winter.

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  38. #38
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    The reason I have new owner in my boiler plate comment is becuase that is my client for most of my inspections. I modifey the comment for pre-listing and xpert witness insp.

    Jerry

    Your comment is valid for the AHJ that is eforcing the adopted code.


    BUT The mayor, state board, county commsion or other enity that is the final AHJ can and does modifiy and change what the Inspector (also a AHJ) accepets and how he interpets code adoptions.

    Also, I would say to those who think that a bath exhaust that vents to a well vented attic is a major issue on each and very house that a Home Inspector inspects throughout the US, I show a lack of understing of Exposure/location deisgn, (extreme cold areas of the us would not even exaust warm mosit air to the outside), the concept a In-service inspection ([FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] In-service field conditions refer to the state of repair of a building or its components while the building is in-use. This involves observation and evaluation of cosmetic and functional damage. This inspection is a execerise in prediction. The evaluation may also provide opinions of: probable causes of distress or damage, assessment of risk of further damage, recommendations for remedial measures, and cost estimates.) NOW having said the above IT IS a reportable condition, in my opinon. Any HI that would not report this, I would consider not meeting a standard of care, for most of the US. But as with many things that done wrong by current code, it my be serviceable and functioning as intended. [/FONT]
    [FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]


  39. #39
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    But as with many things that done wrong by current code, it my be serviceable and functioning as intended.

    Stacey,

    It can't be functioning as intended as it was never intended to function routed as such.

    Which means it is also not serviceable.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  40. #40
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    AGAIN--thanks everyone for your inpuT

    WRITE IT UP AND USE OUR COMMON SENSE AS A HOME INSPECTOR SHOULD.
    sometimes i hate to even ask.

    sometimes these threads get into a pissing match and goes on forever.



    please put it to sleep all

    thanks
    charlie


  41. #41
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    As one of my men in the American Reveloution said

    The thing about commen sense is that it is'nt


  42. #42

    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    [quote]
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore
    I've got plenty of pictures of fungal growth at eave bays while I don't have any at ridge areas.


    You didn't see the one in post #12 above?[/quote]



    What I see is a poorly / improperly placed vent, if that is an attic vent, and would probably write that up. If that is a hood/ vent designed to accept an exhaust duct, then the duct is improperly installed and would get written up.

    Jerry, that's a hip area, not a ridge area


    [quote]I'm not following you there. Blowing 75 degree air from the bathroom exhaust into an attic soffit vent which is likely at 90 degrees to over 120 degrees is definitely not blowing warmer air into a cooler air intake???

    During winter maybe, but there are more places with a longer summer than with a longer winter.
    QUOTE]

    I don't see ventilation type problems in the summer, just the winter, which is part of the reason I would still like more local input. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I'm basing this on personal experience.

    Why is it that I often see the fungal growth start from the eave exhaust duct and rise upward from there through that framing bay, if wind has the biggest affect on attic ventilation? Something's rising. This applies to what I see in post #12 as well. I would think that under windy conditions, there would be so much air exchange out of the attic there may not be any moisture issues-- this is for my non humid climate. I would bet that fungal growth occurs mostly during more stagnant conditions.


    I'm not saying anyone else is wrong for writing this up. I appreciate everyone's input, but there are regional differences to consider. I'm smart enough to know I don't know it all, but not smart enough to not be a home inspector...

    Last edited by Brandon Whitmore; 01-11-2010 at 09:52 PM.

  43. #43

    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    WRITE IT UP AND USE OUR COMMON SENSE AS A HOME INSPECTOR SHOULD.
    sometimes i hate to even ask.
    I guess I know your opinion. Why are you yelling? A friendly debate helps me learn.

    For the most part, this has been what I consider to be a pretty civil discussion on this forum.

    I'm glad you did ask, and I learn a lot from questions such as yours. For that, I thank you.

    And thank you Jerry, for caring enough to try and sway an opinion, while keeping it civil.


  44. #44
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    Jerry, that's a hip area, not a ridge area
    And what do you call that hip ridge ... wait, you say that is not a ridge ... ummm ... let me think ... what do you call that ... uhhhh ... that raised edge where those two roof surfaces meet?

    Charlie's photo did not show it at "the ridge" but "off ridge".

    I don't see ventilation type problems in the summer, just the winter, which is part of the reason I would still like more local input. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I'm basing this on personal experience.
    Ventilation takes place all year long, and ... yep, you're wrong.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  45. #45
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Local condtions are important.

    I lived in Beavorton about 15 + years ago , I remimber that at that time the St Helens dust was clogging the foundaton drains of some houses, A important local condition.


  46. #46
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    good night gracy---good night george

    thanks to all , i know i did right by writing it up


  47. #47

    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore
    Jerry, that's a hip area, not a ridge area


    And what do you call that hip ridge ... wait, you say that is not a ridge ... ummm ... let me think ... what do you call that ... uhhhh ... that raised edge where those two roof surfaces meet?

    Charlie's photo did not show it at "the ridge" but "off ridge".


    Quote:

    I don't see moisture problems related to ventilation in the summer, just the winter, which is part of the reason I would still like more local input. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I'm basing this on personal experience.

    Ventilation takes place all year long, and ... yep, you're wrong.

    Bold words added.
    You weren't staying up late awaiting my reply were you

    Thanks.


  48. #48
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    Wink Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Yes you did do the right thing by writing it up in your report, forget the code crap and use your commom sence and experience about what could happen in the attic ie: moisture, mold, fire, ect. Running the vents to the soffits are not that bad as long as you hook them to a grill that will allow the air to exit below the soffit, this is easier and allows for a shorter discharge pipe. with no chance of a roof leak.


  49. #49
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    Wink Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    It seems many discussions on this board turn into hand-wringing over the building Code and what a local AHJ might say, could say, did say or missed.

    When I am hired for a home inspection I am paid for MY OPINION. Not a code compliance report. If my clients want a code compliance report, I can sell them the 2009 IRC for a hundred bucks, they can go through the home read the code themselves and save hundreds of dollars.

    In my experience, I have not seen a problem with this type of bathroom venting after 14 years of Home Inspections. Thatís what I tell my clients. Could it be better? Sure it could be.

    As a matter of fact, my home powder room vents into a space above my front porch. I have no intention of changing it. I look at it once a year when I get the Christmas tree out of the attic. Havenít seen a problem yet.

    This board should have another thread titled "Is it Code" On this thread a home inspector could ask if a particular installation complies with the current code.


  50. #50
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Maybe geography has something to do with it, I don't know. Geography probably only changes the time line though is my guess. I have been in way too many attics that have problems because of vents going into attics. I can usually tell soon as I open the hatch cover, the damp smell.
    It seems that some are assuming that the push of the fan motor is going to get enough or all of the air out of the attic through the roof vent to not be a problem. To some extent that is probably true. However there are a few concerns.
    - Do you think that getting a percentage of warm moist air out of the attic is really good enough?
    - Allowing the vent into the attic also assumes that the roof vents will always be drawing air OUT. This is NOT the case. I have been in many an attic where air is coming in through the roof vents, albeit briefly, due to wind, weather, house orientation, etc.
    - When that warm moist air gets near that cold roof vent, what do you think happens? The air condensates and just falls straight down onto the insulation and wood
    - If the contractor didn't install the plastic shroud with flapper onto the X fan box, which I have seen plenty of times, No the installation is providing a nice pathway for a bathroom fire to get into the attic and really torch the house quick. Bathroom fire? You know, candles, bubble bath, towels, magazine, etc. puff up it goes.
    Maybe this type of install is Ok or good enough for some of you guys, because its not that bad. However is that what your client is paying you for, hoping to get from you, Good enough?
    Talk about degrading our profession.

    www.aic-chicago.com
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    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  51. #51
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    This is my autotext comment regarding this cheesy, though all too common installation:

    The exhaust fans must be repaired so as to discharge to the building exterior as per the manufacturerís installation instructions, and IRC R303.3: Bathrooms. Bathrooms, water closet compartments and other similar rooms shall be provided with aggregate glazing area in windows of not less than 3 square feet (0.279 m2), one-half of which must be openable.

    Exception: The glazed areas shall not be required where artificial light and a mechanical ventilation system are provided. The minimum ventilation rates shall be 50 cfm (23.6L/s) for intermittent ventilation or 20 cfm (9.4 L/s) for continuous ventilation. Ventilation air from the space shall be exhausted directly to the outside.

    NEC 110.3(B): Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
    and TRCC performance standard 304.23(b)1: Performance Standards for Venting.
    (1) An appliance shall be vented according to the manufacturer's specifications. If an appliance is not vented in accordance with the standard stated in this paragraph, the builder shall take such action as is necessary to bring the variance within the standard.

    The ducts are designed to terminate at dampered hoods either in the roof, a sidewall or below the soffit. Termination in the attic, whether poised above a soffit vent or even when adjacent to a static roof vent is not allowed.

    Contact:
    Broan-NuTone LLC
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    http://www.texasinspector.com/Nutone...structions.pdf


  52. #52
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Lawrence HuRa

    As you state a HI is doing a combination of a performance and a perscerptive inspection of a in-service building, with the reporte providing a persepctive of the building modifided and formed by the inspectors education and experience.(opinion)

    If you do not undersstand this YOU are degrading the HI industry (in my opinion) and I invite you to attend some classes in our Inspection school here in KC


  53. #53
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    ... I invite you to attend some classes in our Inspection school here in KC
    Do they cover spelling, by any chance?

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  54. #54
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence Transue View Post
    This board should have another thread titled "Is it Code" On this thread a home inspector could ask if a particular installation complies with the current code.
    There is such a place, just ask JP


  55. #55
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    i may have spelt some things wrong.

    But i can think.

    "Wrong is wrong" I guess i missed this day of Logic class


  56. #56
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence Transue View Post
    It seems many discussions on this board turn into hand-wringing over the building Code and what a local AHJ might say, could say, did say or missed.

    When I am hired for a home inspection I am paid for MY OPINION. Not a code compliance report. If my clients want a code compliance report, I can sell them the 2009 IRC for a hundred bucks, they can go through the home read the code themselves and save hundreds of dollars.

    In my experience, I have not seen a problem with this type of bathroom venting after 14 years of Home Inspections. Thatís what I tell my clients. Could it be better? Sure it could be.

    As a matter of fact, my home powder room vents into a space above my front porch. I have no intention of changing it. I look at it once a year when I get the Christmas tree out of the attic. Havenít seen a problem yet.

    This board should have another thread titled "Is it Code" On this thread a home inspector could ask if a particular installation complies with the current code.
    Lawrence,

    You started out right, going in the right direction, then you somehow got sidetracked and ended up wrong.

    "It seems many discussions on this board turn into hand-wringing over the building Code and what a local AHJ might say, could say, did say or missed.

    When I am hired for a home inspection I am paid for MY OPINION. Not a code compliance report."

    Code is MINIMUM requirements, as a professional home inspector, you and all other professional home inspectors should be addressing things from that minimum point and higher, not trying to justify something less than minimum as being okay because .... well, because you have not seen a problem caused by it yet ... and there are a few words in there which I need to stress - because you have not seen a problem caused by it yet

    That does not mean the problems did not exist, only that YOU did not see them yet, that you DID NOT SEE them yet, and that you did not see them YET.

    Did the problems exist? Quite possibly yes, and you simply did not notice them because your mind is convinced that doing that is "okay", thus you are not even looking for the negative aspect of what other might see. Not to worry, it happens to ALL OF US.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  57. #57
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    There is such a place, just ask JP

    I do know of such a place, and it is a nice place to visit.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  58. #58
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    Wink Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Actually,

    What I have seen, not seen, not seen yet together make up my experience.

    Have I seen everything, of course not. Have I seen most issues in homes in this area. I think so.

    It may be different than yours, but people PAY me for my OPINION. My Opinion is based on my experience.

    Others are welcome to sell their OPINIONS also.

    Code has little or nothing to do with it. I have never seen a problem with a bathroom vented in that manner (directly below a passive roof vent). If anyone has a picture of a problem with a vent like it please post it.


  59. #59
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence Transue View Post
    Code has little or nothing to do with it.
    That is where your "I know everything I need to know" is getting in your way of learning more (but, of course, based on "I know everything I need to know" ... you simply do not need to learn more ... ).

    Codes are the absolute minimum crappiest one is legally allowed to build it. That really is what codes are.

    The home inspector should use codes as a base requirement assessment, and everything they see should be that good (that bad?) or better. Or they write it up.

    Now, suppose you saw a vent directly connected to the exhaust roof cap and taped up, just as is required by "minimum crappiest you are legally allowed to build it" code requires, but it is still leaking air and moisture out ... now you really have a problem.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  60. #60
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    I do see a problem when the ducts are just pushed up to eave vents-- I write those up.
    Anyone see a problem with these soffit-mounted bath fan vents? Beside the fact that they don't close properly?

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  61. #61
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    Smile Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    I am not saying I "know everything I need to know" I am saying based on my observations today, and other observations in the past this is my opinion.

    As a matter of Fact, I never said I would not write this up.

    What I did say is it could be done better.

    Again, If anyone has a photograph of this type installation causing an actual problem, please enlighten me.

    Where did this come from?

    "The home inspector should use codes as a base requirement assessment, and everything they see should be that good (that bad?) or better. Or they write it up."

    Is this in the FABI, SOPs? Or the ASHI, NAHI, or NACHI Sops?

    If not where did it come from? This is a Home Inspection Board ? right?

    I think there has been enough time spent on this. And yes, much hand-wringing.


  62. #62
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Anyone see a problem with these soffit-mounted bath fan vents? Beside the fact that they don't close properly?
    The wording in the IMC is better at explaining what is intended than the wording in the IRC.

    From the IMC: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 501.2 Exhaust discharge. The air removed by every mechanical exhaust system shall be discharged outdoors at a point where it will not cause a nuisance and not less than the distances specified in Section 501.2.1. The air shall be discharged to a location from which it cannot again be readily drawn in by a ventilating system. Air shall not be exhausted into an attic or crawl space.
    - - Exceptions:
    - - - 1. Whole-house ventilation-type attic fans shall be permitted to discharge into the attic space of dwelling units having private attics.
    - - - 2. Commercial cooking recirculating systems.

    From the IRC:
    - M1501.1 Outdoor discharge. The air removed by every mechanical exhaust system shall be discharged to the outdoors. Air shall not be exhausted into an attic, soffit, ridge vent or crawl space.
    - - Exception: Whole-house ventilation-type attic fans that discharge into the attic space of dwelling units having private attics shall be permitted.

    The soffit vents are a ventilating system.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  63. #63
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    "Anyone see a problem with these soffit-mounted bath fan vents? Beside the fact that they don't close properly? "

    No John, I Have yet to see a problem with this other than an occasional birds nest. ( usually in a vacant home)


  64. #64
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    Default Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    This whole discussion regarding "to code" or not "to code" is not my mindset, nor would it be unless I was doing a "code check" inspection.

    Exhausting into the attic is just bad construction... even if the local AHJ allows it... it is still bad and I would write it up. Just like we write up GFI's even though they are legal because of when they were installed.

    I am of the faith that believes that an average client is at least... maybe more concerned about damage, potential damage and ongoing damage. I would be embarassed say that I saw something that is detrimental to the structure and ignored it.

    Besides the way the ducts are not vented, I question how long they are. Unless there are three bathrooms right next to each other, they seem to be quite long, and exhausting right next to each other. I would suspect condensation spilling back and into each other.

    I would also prefer to see hard pipe. It is only a matter of time until the flex tube is damaged.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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  65. #65
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    Smile Re: BATH EXHAUST FAN TO ATTIC

    Besides blowing over the window? are you sure they were not running then? Here we go again with the click and paste, HOME INSPECTORS ARE NOT CODE INSPECTORS, if you want to be a CODE INSPECTOR go to school to learn how to do that profession and ENFORCE the codes so that when a contractor builds or installs it it meets or exceeds any code that is required at that time. Then later when a want to be home inspector code enforcer comes by they will they will not have to worry about it and will be inspecting the property the way they should have been taught, in a nationally recognized home inspector training school.
    Are your schools in Kansas nationally recognized, just curious not knocking. If it is not nationally recognized with in class room instruction and not just on line instruction, then most likley you are not learning what you need to know to give your customers the best inspection for their money, nor are they recognized in other states. Even code enforcers can not make you go back and change an installation that passed the code when it was installed at the time.
    I would be interested to know how much e&o insurance rates increased or had to pay out due to some home inspectors more worried about if somthing passed code or if an item in their opinion and experience was just not right and was going to or has already caused damage. What Home Inspection Schools are teaching and preaching codes?


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