10" Cedar Board Decking

[Tim Kerce]

Asphalt shingles, one layer. Decking is 10" cedar boards with about a 1/2 gap. Don't know if cedar shingles/shakes were installed previously. Is this an acceptable deck and how do I compare it with a standard plywood sheathing deck installation with H clips?

Tim Kerce
Preferred Inspections

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• The new board looks great
• Tip 1: A different view of the board.

[Rick Cantrell]

I've never seen cedar used for the decking. Bet it smells good.
I do not know of any reason cedar decking would be any concern.
H clips are not needed.

I did not see any roofing nails protruding through the boards.

[Tim Kerce]

It is interesting you said that Rick, no nails were through the boards throughout, but lots of nails were popping out through the shingles. An extraordinary amount.

[chris mcintyre]

It is interesting you said that Rick, no nails were through the boards throughout, but lots of nails were popping out through the shingles. An extraordinary amount.

Uh Oh, sounds like they used 7/8" roofing nails, which would be a big problem.

3 tab or laminated?

Also, IMO the cedar is a soft wood that would make the problem worse.

[Jerry Peck]

Uh Oh, sounds like they used 7/8" roofing nails, which would be a big problem.

3 tab or laminated?

Also, IMO the cedar is a soft wood that would make the problem worse.

Agreed.

Also, though, the problem may be even worse (at least down here in high wind areas it would be worse, a lot worse) as the cedar - being softwood like it is - does not make for a good nailing base, does not make for a strong deck to resist deflection, does not make for a strong deck to resist racking well from live wind or snow loads, and does not make for a strong nail penetration (which goes with does not resist racking well) ... among all the other things that soft wood will allow to happen which one does not want to happen.

Now, if the cedar was 2x and T&G, then that would not be a problem as the extra thickness makes up for the wood's weakness, and the T&P helps make up for the wood's lack of holding power against racking ... but ... with being only 1x and 1/2" space between the cedar boards ... ?

[Tim Kerce]

Thanks guys. I agree. And, Jerry, your winds don't compare. I didn't get to see Peter Framton last week because a simple thunderstorm blew down the venue ( 70 mile an hour winds) I laugh at the high wind warnings in the gulf, as I get to play golf in them on a weekly basis. Anyway, the real estate agent was trying to tell my clients that this roof was an upgrade, and I told them later on this afternoon, that I had not seen this type of installation in over 1000 inspections in OK. But, I'm not a roofer and maybe I've just been inspecting the low rent district, but I have never seen cedar boards as decking and as you state, the nailing is not standard either. I will report what I inspected, and tell my client to call the roofer and their insurance company. Real Estate Agent not withstanding.

[John Kogel]

I didn't get to see Peter Frampton last week because a simple thunderstorm blew down the venue ( 70 mile an hour winds)

Frampton Comes Alive! He's still alive?

Real Estate Agent not withstanding.

Well you know he /she won't be withstanding if the roof blows of. You're on your own, buddy.

[Brandon Whitmore]

Aspahlt shingles are not supposed to be installed on 10" wide boards. At least based on manufacturers installation instructions I've seen.

[brian schmitt]

Aspahlt shingles are not supposed to be installed on 10" wide boards. At least based on manufacturers installation instructions I've seen.

i would like to see that in print! i don't know of any problems associated with installing comp over solid sheeting. i thinks it's better than 7/16" osb glued together wood chips that fall apart after a few years

[Cliff Hepburn]

Why is it that nails must protrude through the sheathing? Is it simply to determine the length of the nail for the inspector?
And a follow up... why is it that a 1" nail would be fine with 15/32 sheathing but too short on 23/32 sheathing?

[C.Johnson]

Do you know what type of Cedar it is? I ask because western red cedar is soft and not suited for holding nails where as yellow cedar is better for this application. Could explain the nail pops.

Western Red Cedar dries readily with little shrinkage and exhibits exceptional dimensional stability in service. It has excellent working qualities and machines to a smooth, satiny finish. Completely non-resinous, it has good gluing properties, has low to moderate nail and screw holding ability, and takes paints and stains well.

Yellow Cedar exhibits notable durability and longevity, being resistant to decay, insect attack and, in salt water (ocean) applications, to marine borers. It is considerably harder than most commercially available evergreen and hardwood species and has excellent strength and wearing properties as well as good impact resistance.
Yellow Cedar seasons well, remains stable and shows little shrinkage. It works easily with hand or machine tools to a smooth surface finish and appearance. It takes and holds nails and screws without splitting and can be glued satisfactorily.

Of course everytime i have seen it, it was a tongue and groove left exposed (on the inside only, obviously )for the interior ceiling.

Roof Decking Manufacturers - Wholesale Cedar and Douglas Fir Lumber - Transco Mills

[Rick Cantrell]

Why is it that nails must protrude through the sheathing? Is it simply to determine the length of the nail for the inspector


When the nail is short the point will not protrude through the decking. The decking can force the nail up because pressure is on the point of the nail.
When the nail point goes through the decking, the force is all the way around the nail, (not on the point) and holds the nail in place.

[Jerry Peck]

i would like to see that in print! i don't know of any problems associated with installing comp over solid sheeting.

That is not "solid" roof sheathing, it is "spaced", albeit spaced only 1/2" apart.

"Solid" board roof sheathing would be tongue and groove, or at the very least the boards would be "touching" each other.

Composition shingles do require "solid" sheathing, not "spaced" sheathing.

[Jerry Peck]

Why is it that nails must protrude through the sheathing?

They don't.

They must, however, penetrate through the sheathing where the sheathing is LESS THAN 3/4" thick, and where the sheathing is 3/4" thick or greater the nails must penetrate a minimum of 3/4" INTO the sheathing, and, of course, that 3/4" is the shank of the nail and not the point, which means that a 3/4" thick sheathing will still have the points of the nails showing through the sheathing to allow for the shank to have 3/4" penetration.

If the sheathing is 2x (1-1/2" thick), then the nails only need to penetrate 3/4" into the sheathing - not counting the point, the point of the nail is extra to the 3/4" - providing a minimum 3/4" bite for the nail.

- R905.2.5 Fasteners. Fasteners for asphalt shingles shall be galvanized steel, stainless steel, aluminum or copper roofing nails, minimum 12 gage [0.105 inch (3 mm)] shank with a minimum 3/8-inch (10 mm) diameter head, ASTM F 1667, of a length to penetrate through the roofing materials and a minimum of 3/4 inch (19 mm) into the roof sheathing. Where the roof sheathing is less than 3/4 inch (19 mm) thick, the fasteners shall penetrate through the sheathing. Fasteners shall comply with ASTM F 1667.

[brian schmitt]

That is not "solid" roof sheathing, it is "spaced", albeit spaced only 1/2" apart.

"Solid" board roof sheathing would be tongue and groove, or at the very least the boards would be "touching" each other.

Composition shingles do require "solid" sheathing, not "spaced" sheathing.

jp,
with that kind of faulty logic osb would not be considered solid sheeting. installation instructions require a gap at all edges and it is not t&g or ship lapped! the cedar boards were probably tight when installed but shrinkage happens!

[Jerry Peck]

with that kind of faulty logic osb would not be considered solid sheeting.

That is like saying that a pond is an ocean because both have water in them.

The 10" wide planks are not solid as they are spaced apart every 9-1/4" with a 1/2" space. This is like the pond.

The OSB has a full 4 FEET of SOLID wood before there is a space, and then the space IS NOT 1/2" wide. This is the ocean.

Or maybe you are British and you 'just live across the pond'?

[brian schmitt]

[quote=Jerry Peck;137494].



The OSB has a full 4 FEET of SOLID wood before there is a space,
jp,
osb 4' solid wood??? stop it, your killing me i'll take the 10" cedar boards which i consider solid, over the glue and chips which disolve back to chips and powder way too soon. what does a pond and oceans have to do with anything? i hope you have a script for whatever you're smokin there are a few gaps in the sheeting but to say all are 1/2" is not correct

[Jerry Peck]

osb 4' solid wood??? stop it, your killing me

"Solid" as in "surface area". Jeez.

what does a pond and oceans have to do with anything?

"Surface area" ... duh!

Ponds have a smaller "surface area" than oceans do, just like 10" boards have a smaller "surface area" than 4 feet by 8 feet sheets of structural panels do.

i hope you have a script for whatever you're smokin

Seems to me that you are the one smoking something, maybe you've found a way to smolder those cedar boards in a way which "enlightens" you? You guys over there must call it "Medical Cedar"? Pass the smoldering splinter this way, okay?

[brian schmitt]

jp aka codeman,candyman ,
does the code in chapter 23 address the installation and nailing of wood roof sheeting?

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

It would be a minimum of 5/4 not 1x. 5/4 boards measure 1 inch thick.In second picture upper right am I seeing sky or light coming through the boards or is that a photo affect. From the looks of the framing, the attic has some age on it.

[Jerry Peck]

does the code in chapter 23 address the installation and nailing of wood roof sheeting?

You would not make a good attorney, probably like KK ...

No, Chapter 23 in the IRC DOES NOT address the installation of wood roof sheathing.

However, in the IBC, Chapter 23 addresses SPACED and SOLID lumber roof sheathing as well as STRUCTURAL PANEL roof sheathing, so ... ... your question is ABOUT WHICH? Just asking/saying it is "in the code" gives/provides/states NOTHING.

You need to ask a specific question before the code can even start to answer your question. Sheesh!

Your question is like asking if the code addresses plumbing pipe ... ahh, yeah, it sure does ... but WHAT KIND of pipe material and for WHAT USE? Jeez, I thought you were smarter than that.

[chris mcintyre]

In second picture upper right am I seeing sky or light coming through the boards or is that a photo affect.

I noticed it as well, but assumed it was valley flashing.

[Mike Gault]

I noticed it as well, but assumed it was valley flashing.

Looks absolutely like valley flash beneath the 15# felt mat...

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Agreed. I forget everybody just points and clicks with their little digitals. Nobody bounces a flash anymore. D/L and expanded and it was clear.

[brian schmitt]

It would be a minimum of 5/4 not 1x. 5/4 boards measure 1 inch thick.In second picture upper right am I seeing sky or light coming through the boards or is that a photo affect. From the looks of the framing, the attic has some age on it.

hg,
where did you come up with 5/4?

[brian schmitt]

You would not make a good attorney, probably like KK ...

No, Chapter 23 in the IRC DOES NOT address the installation of wood roof sheathing.

However, in the IBC, Chapter 23 addresses SPACED and SOLID lumber roof sheathing as well as STRUCTURAL PANEL roof sheathing, so ... ... your question is ABOUT WHICH? Just asking/saying it is "in the code" gives/provides/states NOTHING.

You need to ask a specific question before the code can even start to answer your question. Sheesh!

Your question is like asking if the code addresses plumbing pipe ... ahh, yeah, it sure does ... but WHAT KIND of pipe material and for WHAT USE? Jeez, I thought you were smarter than that.

jp,
being the code yoda you are i figured all i had to do was put a code chapter down and you could spew forth volumes of cut and paste magic.ibc 2304.7,tables 2304.7(1)2304.7(2). we in these parts have allowed 1" sheeting forever in this application. tell me where it says in the code that it is specifically not allowed and i will be a convert to your all knowing personna.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

hg,
where did you come up with 5/4?

...minimum I said.
I deduced it from the information provided and photographed.

Not sold on the cedar claim, but I wasn't there, and my photo-shopping skills are limited.

[brian schmitt]

...minimum I said.
I deduced it from the information provided and photographed.

Not sold on the cedar claim, but I wasn't there, and my photo-shopping skills are limited.

hg,
i don't see where anyone said 5/4 minimum and i don't see where you can accurately tell from the photo how thick the boards are? jp cannot tell me where in the code it states that solid boards say 3/4" thick can't be used for sheeting, can you?

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

hg,
i don't see where anyone said 5/4 minimum and i don't see where you can accurately tell from the photo how thick the boards are? jp cannot tell me where in the code it states that solid boards say 3/4" thick can't be used for sheeting, can you?

That's what I said.

It would be a minimum of 5/4 not 1x. 5/4 boards measure 1 inch thick.In second picture upper right am I seeing sky or light coming through the boards or is that a photo affect. From the looks of the framing, the attic has some age on it.

It is interesting you said that Rick, no nails were through the boards throughout, but lots of nails were popping out through the shingles. An extraordinary amount.

I've answered your initial question directed at my OT contribution. I said it, I deduced it. I'm done with the OT drift.

[Ted Menelly]

That's what I said.






I've answered your initial question directed at my OT contribution. I said it, I deduced it. I'm done with the OT drift.

HG

Being an older gent I would venture a guess that you may have some meds far better than what the California boys can get on a medical scrip from the Doc

Just kidding but maybe true

[brian schmitt]

HG

Being an older gent I would venture a guess that you may have some meds far better than what the California boys can get on a medical scrip from the Doc

Just kidding but maybe true

ted,
it is 100 degrees out and i just might have a cold bud light after trying to understand hg and jp. somehow sucking on burning weeds just doesn't refresh one like a cold bud light
did i get an answer anywhere from the experts here?

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

I have no idea what you mean Ted.

[Ted Menelly]

I have no idea what you mean Ted.

Like I said HG....just kidding. Me being me and just being cut up as I did and know I am getting older I can imagine that I will be receiving pretty decent meds in the future

Others were mentioning the california guys and their medical weed.

[Jerry Peck]

does the code in chapter 23 address the installation and nailing of wood roof sheeting?

You would not make a good attorney, probably like KK ...

No, Chapter 23 in the IRC DOES NOT address the installation of wood roof sheathing.

However, in the IBC, Chapter 23 addresses SPACED and SOLID lumber roof sheathing as well as STRUCTURAL PANEL roof sheathing, so ... ... your question is ABOUT WHICH? Just asking/saying it is "in the code" gives/provides/states NOTHING.

You need to ask a specific question before the code can even start to answer your question. Sheesh!

Your question is like asking if the code addresses plumbing pipe ... ahh, yeah, it sure does ... but WHAT KIND of pipe material and for WHAT USE? Jeez, I thought you were smarter than that.

being the code yoda you are i figured all i had to do was put a code chapter down and you could spew forth volumes of cut and paste magic.ibc 2304.7,tables 2304.7(1)2304.7(2).

Duh! And what tables did you think I was referring to? Jeez.

We start off discussing 10" board sheathing with 1/2" spaces between them versus structural panel sheathing with 1/8" spaces between them and "spaced" sheathing versus "solid" sheathing and you point out that the code does address them - to which I said that, yes, the code does address them, but WHAT SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT / REFERRING TO ... and you point to those tables which simply addresses lumber sheathing.

The question to you remains ... WHAT SPECIFICALLY are you asking about/referring to? Or, as in my example, WHAT SPECIFIC kind of pipe as the code does refer to many kinds of pipe, for different allowable uses.

They make chalk boards and chalk.

They make dry erase boards and dry erase markers.

They make crayons and drawing pads.

All the above are allowed to be used.

One should not, however, use the wrong one with the one drawing instrument for the wrong purpose - sooooo ... WHAT SPECIFICALLY are you asking ... ?

we in these parts have allowed 1" sheeting forever in this application. tell me where it says in the code that it is specifically not allowed and i will be a convert to your all knowing personna.

Now you've been smoking so much of that smoldering cedar stuff that you are making stuff up - not sure where you imagined that part you are imagining about "tell me where it says in the code that it is specifically not allowed"?????

[brian schmitt]

Duh! And what tables did you think I was referring to? Jeez.

We start off discussing 10" board sheathing with 1/2" spaces between them versus structural panel sheathing with 1/8" spaces between them and "spaced" sheathing versus "solid" sheathing and you point out that the code does address them - to which I said that, yes, the code does address them, but WHAT SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT / REFERRING TO ... and you point to those tables which simply addresses lumber sheathing.

The question to you remains ... WHAT SPECIFICALLY are you asking about/referring to? Or, as in my example, WHAT SPECIFIC kind of pipe as the code does refer to many kinds of pipe, for different allowable uses.

They make chalk boards and chalk.

They make dry erase boards and dry erase markers.

They make crayons and drawing pads.

All the above are allowed to be used.

One should not, however, use the wrong one with the one drawing instrument for the wrong purpose - sooooo ... WHAT SPECIFICALLY are you asking ... ?




Now you've been smoking so much of that smoldering cedar stuff that you are making stuff up - not sure where you imagined that part you are imagining about "tell me where it says in the code that it is specifically not allowed"?????

jp,
Focus old man, focus if you can! as an ahj would you approve 1x 10" lumber roof sheeting on a new house with composition shingles over it? yes or no answer? if "no" explain. in the original post you seem to have a problem with the install. would you require the owner to remove the comp and install osb over the 1x 10" inch boards or remove all and install osb then comp? i have no issues with the install as it is or if it was a new installation! what the heck Peck are you so into ponds, oceans, pipes, and smoking cedar for? there are meds to help you focus ,seek help

[Jerry Peck]

Focus old man, focus if you can! as an ahj would you approve 1x 10" lumber roof sheeting on a new house with composition shingles over it? yes or no answer?

You are now asking a question what was not asked before and asking it as though it was answered wrong, when it has not even been asked.

The answer is a simple compound answer of 'yes' or 'no' followed by the qualifying statement which goes with it.

So, here goes:

"as an ahj would you approve 1x 10" lumber roof sheeting on a new house with composition shingles over it? yes or no answer?"

Yes, as long as the 1x10 lumber roof sheathing was not spaced with large spaces, i.e., as long as the 1x10 lumber roof sheathing was installed with each piece basically against the adjacent piece.

See, YOU are so insistent on ANYONE saying that it is not allowed, even though NO ONE SAID THAT, that you cannot understand, grasp, and separate the simple discussion of "spaced versus solid" from "allowed or not allowed".

NO WONDER you are having problems understanding things here.

[Rick Cantrell]

It seems that Brandow is correct. post #8
Shingles should not be nailed to boards over 6"


http://www.tamko.com/Portals/0/docum...structions.pdf
SHEATHING BOARDS: Boards shall be well-seasoned tongue-and-groove boards and not over 6 in. nominal width. Boards shall be a 1 in. nominal minimum thickness. Boards shall be properly spaced and nailed.



http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Residenti...30-65-3534.pdf

• ROOF DECKS: For use on new or reroofing work over well-seasoned, supported wood deck,
tightly-constructed with maximum 6” (152mm) wide lumber,

[Jerry Peck]

It seems that Brandow is correct. post #8
Shingles should not be nailed to boards over 6"

http://www.tamko.com/Portals/0/docum...structions.pdf
SHEATHING BOARDS: Boards shall be well-seasoned tongue-and-groove boards and not over 6 in. nominal width. Boards shall be a 1 in. nominal minimum thickness. Boards shall be properly spaced and nailed.

http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Residential-Roofing/Roofing-Products/Shingles-Styles-Shingle-Colors/3-Tab-Shingles/Marquis-WeatherMax-Shingles/Documents/MarquisWeatherMax-ApplicationInstructions-230-65-3534.pdf
• ROOF DECKS: For use on new or reroofing work over well-seasoned, supported wood deck,
tightly-constructed with maximum 6” (152mm) wide lumber,

Aspahlt shingles are not supposed to be installed on 10" wide boards. At least based on manufacturers installation instructions I've seen.

Brandon was correct then (and I missed his post saying that not over 6" is allowed by the manufactures (which is why I always read the installation instructions and product approvals while inspecting roofs - and HOPING that I would have seen that limitation ... everything newer down here is plywood or OSB, and the few older board sheathed roofs are all 1x6, so that must be the reason for the 1x6 boards having been used?).

Me bad in saying 1x10 board roof was allowed.

Guess I REALLY DO NEED a vacation ...

[Rick Cantrell]

Have fun

[Jerry Peck]

I gotcha.

[Rick Cantrell]

Thats better

[Jerry Peck]

Thats better

Yeppers ...